Happy Atheist Forum

As a matter of curiosity, how many here share the view that there is no such thing as a selfless act? The way I see it every act that is carried out has a reward of some kind behind it.

I think everyone is selfish.  I think that altruism comes from taking pleasure in helping others and in seeking the love and approval of others.  So I don't think selfishness is bad if the result is the same as selflessness.

I just mentioned this elsewhere, altruism is about doing good without an active reward. If a passive reward comes along or is possible, then it's still altruism, imho.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/altruism-biological/ (http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/altruism-biological/)

I think we are selfish in the need to compete with limited resources, as a whole. Pretty much all life does that. But I agree with Kylissa and Will on altruism. I think that pure altruistic acts exist. The reasons vary, but they exist. I've done them myself, anonymously. Did I get satisfaction (which may imply selfishness)? Yes. But the impetus for it was completely ignorant of possible self-serving motives.

Fairly recently, while eating lunch in a restaurant adjacent to my local airport (it's a community airport, not a major one), I saw an old gentleman eating at another table. He had his WWII flight jacket on. He was a regular, an old pilot who still just loved being around planes and plane people. I just wanted to do something nice for this man, as he looked like he didn't have much money. Kind of ragged.

So I called his server over to me, asked her to give me his bill, and paid it and the tip. I told her not to say who I was, but to simply say someone wanted to thank you for being who you are. All I wanted to do was make this man feel special for even a brief moment.

And I love the pay-it-forward idea as well. Have you ever just made someone smile when they were having a horrible day. Done that too, with everyone from besieged airline check-in clerks, to to the guy that gave me some directions last week. The kindness you do today may cause that person to reflect and pass it along. It might not, but it sure could plant a seed.

I do agree that you can genuinely care for someone but I wouldn't call it selflessness or even altruism. Because you still receive a sense of satisfaction in your giving to that person or knowing that they are happy.

Selfishness is misunderstood. You can be selfish as well as caring and compassionate just as much as you can be selfish and greedy. Nobody can choose to not be selfish therefore no one can choose to be selfless either.

As a matter of fact psychology shows that one must be at least moderately selfish in order to achieve true love. Personally, I have an enormous egotism. I don't think any rules apply to me. But I'm a nice guy who helps and loves people. However I cannot say I am in any way selfless because of this since I help and love because I know that I benefit from it as well.

I think I know what you guys are saying though. Perhaps I'm digging too far into the semantics of it all.  :lol:

I think our own interests lie at the core of our every conscious action and decision Thus, yes, we are all selfish.

I think it take at least a little bit of selfishness to survive.

I disagree strongly with the idea that everyone is selfish.  I'm not saying I myself am not capable of selfish acts at times of weakness, but I think there is a strong difference between the terms self-preservation and selfishness.  There are people in this world who will put themselves directly in harm's way to save a child's life, to fight disease, to fight violence.  Some of these people act anonymously, some don't.  Just because someone gets a positive feeling from an act of kindness doesn't make them selfish.

Selfishness is to act in way that takes away from others, putting your wants and desires before the needs of others.   It's a huge distortion of what the term selfishness means to say altruists are only doing what they do for their own egos just because they may receive a positive feeling or reward.

So Sophus, is selflessness even possible by your definition?

 If it is selfish to feel good about doing good, then no selfless act is possible.

Here are some dictionary definitions of selfless:

Random House Unabridged says: 'having little or no concern for oneself, esp. with regard to fame, position, money, etc.; unselfish."

American Heritage Dictionary:  "Having, exhibiting, or motivated by no concern for oneself; unselfish: 'Volunteers need both selfish and selfless motives to sustain their interest' (Natalie de Combray). "

My career path is altruistic. I am working toward a nursing career. My husband makes enough that I do not need to work at all. If I just did it to maintain that good feeling or the belief that I am a good person, I guarantee I would burn out within 2 years. Of course there are selfish motives along with the selfless ones. I love learning. I love science. I feel good about using my knowledge and compassion and cool head to make things better for others. I enjoy the work and the setting. I learn the most significant things by working with others when they are facing crises of health and spirit. The selfless part is that I prefer that good feeling that comes from altruism over money, fame, power, and praise. The mere fact that the reward is internal and entirely based on my value system (that I value helping others) makes it selfless.

Quote from: "Wraitchel"So Sophus, is selflessness even possible by your definition?

 If it is selfish to feel good about doing good, then no selfless act is possible.

Here are some dictionary definitions of selfless:

Random House Unabridged says: 'having little or no concern for oneself, esp. with regard to fame, position, money, etc.; unselfish."

American Heritage Dictionary:  "Having, exhibiting, or motivated by no concern for oneself; unselfish: 'Volunteers need both selfish and selfless motives to sustain their interest' (Natalie de Combray). "

My career path is altruistic. I am working toward a nursing career. My husband makes enough that I do not need to work at all. If I just did it to maintain that good feeling or the belief that I am a good person, I guarantee I would burn out within 2 years. Of course there are selfish motives along with the selfless ones. I love learning. I love science. I feel good about using my knowledge and compassion and cool head to make things better for others. I enjoy the work and the setting. I learn the most significant things by working with others when they are facing crises of health and spirit. The selfless part is that I prefer that good feeling that comes from altruism over money, fame, power, and praise. The mere fact that the reward is internal and entirely based on my value system (that I value helping others) makes it selfless.

It's not selfless because you still recieve something from it. You help others because it makes you happy. I help others because it makes me happy. We are both selfish. But selfishness has been given such a bad repuatation. There is nothing wrong with it. Yes, selflessness is impossible.

Quote from: "Sophus"It's not selfless because you still recieve something from it. You help others because it makes you happy. I help others because it makes me happy. We are both selfish. But selfishness has been given such a bad repuatation. There is nothing wrong with it. Yes, selflessness is impossible.

I largely agree with you, but I think there are some rare acts that are completely selfless. Those acts that involve giving your life to save others.

Everyone is Selfish  cos there is a verse versa befits  in our relation ships  think about it u find that even love is selfesh u love some one cos u want to get something in return i guess that's why we are selfish we never learn to share for nothing  

Quote from: "bowmore"I largely agree with you, but I think there are some rare acts that are completely selfless. Those acts that involve giving your life to save others.

Good point. I see what you're saying. There may be some cases where the sacrificing of ones life appears selfless because technically they are valuing another's life over their own. And perhaps that is selfless (especially if thought of in terms of a physical concern for oneself), but I think they still do it to satisfy something within their self. I would give my life for my son; probably in part that I couldn't live with myself knowing I was too much a coward to let him die. But mostly because I take on his well being as my responsibility. When he's happy, I'm happy. It's symbiotic. So I value his life over my own but I can never escape the fact that I would be doing it because I want to; I receive something from it by satisfying a virtue. Any act that is done is done for a reason.

But a very valid crux. I thank you for it.

Selfishness is an existential and teleological tautology, one can only act for and as oneself, one's perceptions are value, values are only the values of some one in particular.

Yes, I believe selfless acts are possible.

I used to believe that everyone was selfish. Not anymore.

Sophus, selfless, according to you, means with no value for oneself. I still think that if I do something which benefits someone else and which costs me more than it benefits me, then the math says it was an unselfish, and in my opinion selfless act. For example, if I donated blood today, it cost me some of my strength and resistance to stress or illness. It may have made me lightheaded. Perhaps I couldn't carry boxes of holiday decorations down to the basement. I will never see or hear of the person who will receive this blood, but I may well save their life. If I told no one, and never know if it benefited anyone at all, where is the boon to me? I have succeeded in doing something selfless. Any good feeling I may have gotten from imagining some pediatric leukemia patient living to see another round of chemo is beside the point. For all I know, my blood will never even be used.

You're looking at beneficial things as material things. However intelligent people such as yourself know that there is nothing greater than the feeling earned than when one gives. We only give because it satisfies a righteous/honorable need inside ourselves. Or perhaps an urge to be compassionate and caring.  There's nothing wrong with that - after all it's much more noble than the man who prides himself in his own material gain. However if we hold these values as being more valuable than our material gain, all we've done is change our priorities. The difference is we won't be giving to ourselves alone. Ultimately it's still selfish. Nobody in history has ever done anything that hasn't benefited themselves in some way.