Happy Atheist Forum

The pastor-pedophile thread got me thinking about the ways in which rape is harmful. As a rape victim, I have thought about this frequently over the 28 years since it happened to me. I have to admit that the physical harm done to me was minimal, though I was a virgin when it happened. I have known many men who thought that it was normal for a woman's first sexual experience to be against her will, though these same men would not have intentionally committed rape. I suffered a great deal of emotional harm from the experience, though some of the harm had as much to do with my pre-existing emotional immaturity and low self-esteem as it did with the rape itself. I was 15. He was 18. I had wanted to maintain my virginity until I was married. I believed, at the time, that sex before marriage was a sin. I believed that my Father would not love me if I did not remain his innocent little angel. I believed that I had gotten myself into the situation and basically permitted the rape. I believed that I did not have the right to say no. I tried so hard to please everyone because I was the classic enabling daughter of an alcoholic father and a borderline personality disorder mother. As a result, I felt ruined, guilty, dirty, and bad. I told nobody about it. I lost my ability to be around men, any men, and got sick to my stomach even around my own father and brother. It took about 5 years, and the patient friendship of several male peers before I was able to enjoy a romantic relationship, and several more before I really could put it behind me. I am still trying to make men understand that rape is harmful. I know most men will give lip service to that statement, but I still think most are all too ready to blame the victim or dismiss the claim that harm was really done.

I have to add that now that I am older, and have been in a marriage for 13 years, I think of sex differently. It is an act that, ideally, brings two people closer together and tears down the barriers of self-consciousness and mistrust. It bonds two people together in a loving relationship. Rape is using this powerful form of intimacy to invade the victim's trust and sense of self. It is an easy thing to dismiss, but for those of us who understand the potential of sex to create a bond of trust, and also have experienced the misuse of this tool, the importance cannot be ignored.

I'd love to discuss what you all really think of rape. Have you ever convinced someone to have sex with you who really didn't want to? Was it rape? Have you been raped or had sex when you didn't really want to? How does sex harm the victim? When is it the victim's fault, and does that condition nullify the harm or the culpability for the harm?

I've had sex when I didn't want to once or twice (not being physically forced, mind you), but in my case, it's like water off a goose. No harm done.  

I guess for me it's not much different from doing something else I'd rather not do against my will. If I was physically forced though, the story might have been different. Might being the key word.

I've certainly never raped and I've never been raped.

Rape is a very violent and invasive act. While we don't all believe in god or gods, most of us do attach importance to both the enjoyment sex and reproduction. Rape is not only brutal physically, but also is an attack on something that most believe is, for lack of a better term, sacred.

Also, there's the possibility of unwanted pregnancy, which is something awful to force on a woman.

Quote from: "Willravel"I've certainly never raped and I've never been raped.

Rape is a very violent and invasive act. While we don't all believe in god or gods, most of us do attach importance to both the enjoyment sex and reproduction. Rape is not only brutal physically, but also is an attack on something that most believe is, for lack of a better term, sacred.

Also, there's the possibility of unwanted pregnancy, which is something awful to force on a woman.

Good point, Willravel. There are also STD's to consider. For these and other reasons, after one has been raped, it is hard to overcome the feeling that a dick in your bed is about as welcome as a rat in your kitchen.

Really, I imagine that rape is one of the most harmful things you can do to another human being. Physically, mentally, emotionally; it is in every respect a monstrous attack. Worse still, it strikes me as deeply cowardly. Rape is about stealing power, and generally this is done by a person who cannot earn social power through legitimate means. Rape is cheating, which may not seem important next to the physical and emotional damage, but it gets at the root of the problem.

I sometimes feel like rape and child molestation both have life sentences.  

Traumatic experiences are saved in memory differently than regular memories are.  They are very intense and full of sensory details.  They can be triggered by such innocent things as a smell associated with the assault, a perfectly nice man getting too close, a place, a feeling - just about anything.  And there's really no way to erase the memory or the feelings.

Sexual assaults create at least two separate types of emotional harm.  There is the emotional trauma from the violence and the intense fear one feels in the situation.  Then there is the emotional harm that comes with associating the act with one's own sexuality.  It's difficult to separate those acts of sexual violence from your sexuality.

It has been a rough road reclaiming my sexuality.  For me, taking joy (and spreading joy) in sexuality is the anti-rape.  My revenge is having an amazing, fulfilling sex life and trying to help others to have one too.

Though I've managed to (mostly) separate my sexuality from the assaults on my sexual being, I still suffer from panic attacks, depersonalization and occasional intense self-loathing brought on by flashbacks or subconscious feelings.  Something as simple as the smell of Vaseline, the feel of a sticky vinyl car seat, the sight of a certain scar in the mirror or the scent of rain on hot asphalt can send me into a tizzy.  That bothers me on many levels.  I'm the level-headed one, the first person on the scene to apply a tourniquet, the one to keep my head in an emergency, the one who calms down other people when I'm injured.  I'm also the gentle person, the peacemaker, the nurturer, the lover.  Those assaults on my person and on my sexuality have compromised the person I prefer to be.  I feel humiliated by what they bring out in me.

And I haven't been sexually assaulted in over fifteen years.  

I've also been physically (non-sexually) assaulted a number of times.  There's just no comparing the emotional harm.  There are the feelings of rage and helplessness but my sense of self was never compromised. It sounds weird but I've actually felt good about myself for surviving.  People can see the wounds left by a physically violent assault and they seem to know how to react in response to that.  However, when it comes to the invisible wounds left by rape most people have no clue how to react.  So, quite often, people around you compound the emotional problems caused by rape.

Kylyssa, that was an eloquent and enlightening description of what rape does to a person, including some of the aspects I have had a hard time verbalizing. Thank you.

Wait... I'm confused now. Were you raped or talk into having sex when you did not want to?

To me, Sophus, there is a fuzzy line at the point between being raped and being convinced to do it when you don't really want to. Legally, I was raped. I said no, and he did it anyway. The lead up matters, though. I had sneaked out in the middle of the night with my best friend and gone skinny dipping with a couple of seniors. My friend and I were freshmen in high school. See why I don't really blame the guy so much? The effect on me was traumatic, though. I really had not expected that to happen. I think most people would say I was asking for it. Really, I was just a sheltered fool. As I said in another post, I was also brought up to believe that I did not have the right to say no to people. Because of that, I did not say no until things had gone pretty far. My fault? I really don't blame the guy. I never told anyone until many years later, and I never did tell him. I just think this is one of the reasons why there are laws against statutory rape.

"asking for it?" It's a bit of an oxymoron to "ask for" rape. If a person gets mugged, we don't say they're more to blame than the mugger because they "looked too loaded." Not if we're sane, in any case. And I don't think it's fair to say that most men would be stupid enough to make that kind of assessment! I like to think that the majority of us have at least that much sense.

When it comes to persuading someone to have sex when they don't really want to, I struggle with the idea because (and I know this doesn't apply to your situation) you can't necessarily tell. In my homosexual adventures, I've come to conclude that a lot of men are utterly inept when it comes to interpreting the emotions of others, and I might be one of them for all I know. They easily mistake fear for simple nervousness, reluctance for shyness, etc. unless that distress gets clearly voiced by the other party. They do it quite innocently, too, because they really are that oblivious. And when the blood runs to the extremities it oft' departs the brain, which doesn't help either. Actually, some women are like that too... I wouldn't say chronic insensitivity is a trait exclusive to men. Anyway, to get back on track, I'd say that in a situation like that, one could make the argument that neither party is morally at fault but both are foolish: the woman for not giving voice to her feelings and the man for being generally unperceptive. It's just bad luck all round there, really. The tricky bit is, how do we actually tell whether or not the guy knew? Claiming misunderstanding is a very easy excuse to make. I don't know if there's an answer to that.

Speaking from the point of view of someone who has been raped in the past

Usually rape is a violent act, it's not always a guy who's all ready to go with his girlfriend and his girlfriend says no but he does it anyways.

It's an act of power, dominance, control. The man is, in the case of rape, using his dick as a weapon.

Imagine being in a situation where you're yelling and screaming as someone is in the act of hurting you, mentally, physically at times (they're having to hold you down in the process) and can anyone really expect you to brush off being violated, having that power stolen from you, having to be reminded every time you try to pursue sex with the one you love of that incident and wondering if they are going to hurt you.

It's pain beyond imagining, and pain I've endured.

The only experience i have of seeing what rape can do to someone was when i attended a court case for my sociology A-level. It really slapped me in the face as to how damaging to the mind of a person it is. I'll never forget how the poor woman was cross-examined. They brought up lewd stories from her past to try to discredit the motives of the man who raped her and by inferring she was simply a slut. It made me feel quite sick to see someone who'd been through such an ordeal be made to feel so worthless in front of lots of people. The man got off because there wasn't enough evidence.

I'll never forget that. It was a stark learning experience for me.
To all the people in this thread who've been though such an horrific ordeal - you are brave. It is admirable that you are able to speak so matter-of-factly about it. I wish you all the luck and happiness you can glean from life.

Quote from: "Wraitchel"To me, Sophus, there is a fuzzy line at the point between being raped and being convinced to do it when you don't really want to. Legally, I was raped. I said no, and he did it anyway. The lead up matters, though. I had sneaked out in the middle of the night with my best friend and gone skinny dipping with a couple of seniors. My friend and I were freshmen in high school. See why I don't really blame the guy so much? The effect on me was traumatic, though. I really had not expected that to happen. I think most people would say I was asking for it. Really, I was just a sheltered fool. As I said in another post, I was also brought up to believe that I did not have the right to say no to people. Because of that, I did not say no until things had gone pretty far. My fault? I really don't blame the guy. I never told anyone until many years later, and I never did tell him. I just think this is one of the reasons why there are laws against statutory rape.

No, no. Don't get me wrong. I am in no way blaming you. I just got a little lost and was unclear as to whether or not you actually said no. Sometimes things just happen. You don't necessarily have to look for anyone to blame if you don't wish to; you or they guy. I think he's a pig though.

While rationally I understand how rape can be a damaging act to the female psyche, I can't help but feel a cold arrogance towards the victim-like mentality that these women go through. I find it hard to empathize or sympathize with these women have been damaged by rape, and as much as I try not to, still sometimes roll my eyes in exasperation.

I am shocked by how much the woman feels she has to go on feeling sorry for herself or continue berating herself for something that, rationally, can be explained quite easily. The man was either hard up but otherwise amorous, or was simply a loser trying to take out his frustrations of having no power on someone he percieves as weaker than him. In fact, it strikes me as strange that the woman doesn't strike back by twisting the man's fear of having no one: "So, you can't get any girls? Oh, poor baby, is that cause your dick is so small? You're not a real man. It's a good thing I'm a lesbian...ect"

And then there's the 15-year long trauma period. That just reeks of low self-esteem. I try to sympathize, of course. If I know a woman who's been raped, I rationally can understand where she's coming from, but after a week of listening to her self-loathing, honestly wish that she'd see herself not as a victim, but as the wonderful, beautiful, sexy proud woman she deserves to be.

Quote from: "Wechtlein Uns"While rationally I understand how rape can be a damaging act to the female psyche, I can't help but feel a cold arrogance towards the victim-like mentality that these women go through. I find it hard to empathize or sympathize with these women have been damaged by rape, and as much as I try not to, still sometimes roll my eyes in exasperation.

I am shocked by how much the woman feels she has to go on feeling sorry for herself or continue berating herself for something that, rationally, can be explained quite easily. The man was either hard up but otherwise amorous, or was simply a loser trying to take out his frustrations of having no power on someone he percieves as weaker than him. In fact, it strikes me as strange that the woman doesn't strike back by twisting the man's fear of having no one: "So, you can't get any girls? Oh, poor baby, is that cause your dick is so small? You're not a real man. It's a good thing I'm a lesbian...ect"

And then there's the 15-year long trauma period. That just reeks of low self-esteem. I try to sympathize, of course. If I know a woman who's been raped, I rationally can understand where she's coming from, but after a week of listening to her self-loathing, honestly wish that she'd see herself not as a victim, but as the wonderful, beautiful, sexy proud woman she deserves to be.

So you figure if you'd been repeatedly molested as a child and raped several times as an adult, receiving life-threatening and crippling injuries you wouldn't ever have any flashbacks or feel weird in situations that reminded you of the horrific pain and fear?  If your skull were fractured and one of your ribs punched into your lung then someone got on top of you and stuck his penis in you, you'd just shrug it off?

Quote from: "Wechtlein Uns"While rationally I understand how rape can be a damaging act to the female psyche, I can't help but feel a cold arrogance towards the victim-like mentality that these women go through. I find it hard to empathize or sympathize with these women have been damaged by rape, and as much as I try not to, still sometimes roll my eyes in exasperation.

I am shocked by how much the woman feels she has to go on feeling sorry for herself or continue berating herself for something that, rationally, can be explained quite easily. The man was either hard up but otherwise amorous, or was simply a loser trying to take out his frustrations of having no power on someone he percieves as weaker than him. In fact, it strikes me as strange that the woman doesn't strike back by twisting the man's fear of having no one: "So, you can't get any girls? Oh, poor baby, is that cause your dick is so small? You're not a real man. It's a good thing I'm a lesbian...ect"

And then there's the 15-year long trauma period. That just reeks of low self-esteem. I try to sympathize, of course. If I know a woman who's been raped, I rationally can understand where she's coming from, but after a week of listening to her self-loathing, honestly wish that she'd see herself not as a victim, but as the wonderful, beautiful, sexy proud woman she deserves to be.

Dude, I can appreciate your honesty, I suppose, but I think your head is up your ass. In another post, you admitted to having sympathy for the pedophiles. I'm guessing you can get inside the rapist's mentality, too, more easily than you can get into a victim's head. Perhaps you have been a victim, yourself, but can't begin to face the reality of that. Perhaps you have victimized others and cannot afford to feel sympathy. I would strongly suggest that you not pretend to have sympathy when you don't. In the long run, it is unkind to the woman you are fooling into trusting you with her vulnerability. I have been with men like you, and it did me no good. It's not like people enjoy being victimized and then taking years to heal from it. Healing takes time and the support of trustworthy people. That ain't you.

Wraitchel, I finally got to this thread and find it impressive and disturbing. However, I don't mean "disturbing" as though it doesn't belong here, but as an eye opening and needed topic. It's one of the topics that gets discussed too little. I find it impressive that you and others who have been raped can discuss it openly. Kudos for bringing it up and putting it here for us to talk about.

To answer your initial questions: No, never raped anyone, and No, never been raped. I have been in the subordinate position in a case of sexual harassment though. Though it's clearly not the same as physically being raped, it is an extremely helpless feeling. It was unusual that it was done to me (a guy) by a woman. She was a senior military officer and just wasn't going to take no for an answer from a lowly Second Lieutenant. It occurred over a period of three months while I was basically trapped, being on a small post in Honduras, away from home and friends and support. Long story short, I did NOT cave to her, and made it out ok, but it was traumatic at the time.

As for you and other rape victims, it is one of the few totally dehumanizing acts that one person can commit on another. You lose your sense of self. At 15, there is NO WAY you should be blamed for this. I'm sorry if others do not agree, but a 15 year old, in most cases, just doesn't have the ability to make consistent, adult decisions, and in your case, it cost you. But the BLAME for this is not on your 15 year old brain. It lies with the person who took advantage of you and the situation. I think it's bullshit to say otherwise. Even if you had some thoughts about what might happen ahead of time, the responsibility for the act of rape lies with the one who commits it. He is the person who took the advantage of your insecurities and vulnerability.

In the case of a teen raping a teen, it is full of gray areas, but I still don't see how the act of forcing you into sex in any way can be your "fault". Maybe the other teen didn't have the full, rational capabilities of a seasoned adult, but the fact is that he still perpetrated the act.

We've had some unfortunate cases, recently, in my town, of two different male high school teachers having sex with female students. In both cases, the teachers had direct supervisory and/or teaching responsibilities over the girls. One was also a coach, and the other was also a band director. In both cases, the sex was "consensual". I put " around the word, because I think that "consent" was given by the girls because these adult men (both around thirty years old (oh yeah, and MARRIED with young kids) manipulated them. They were looked up to by the girls, they were in positions of leadership over the girls, and they fully used that to their advantage. In my opinion, what they did falls under the same category as the dehumanizing rape of a person. It takes away the victim's ability to choose of her own free will.

What was sad in the cases here is that so many people wanted to blame the girls for it. How? One girl was barely 16 when the "affair" started, and the other was 16. Both went on for two years before being discovered. That is just sickening.

I'll get off the soap box now and give it back to you. I hope you get some good discussion out of this thread, and maybe spread some wisdom around on this.

Quote from: "McQ"Wraitchel, I finally got to this thread and find it impressive and disturbing. However, I don't mean "disturbing" as though it doesn't belong here, but as an eye opening and needed topic. It's one of the topics that gets discussed too little. I find it impressive that you and others who have been raped can discuss it openly. Kudos for bringing it up and putting it here for us to talk about.

I agree, it takes a lot of courage to come forward and talk about painful experiences. I have experienced several traumatic experiences similar to those who have posted earlier. Rape is always harmful and destructive. I can relate to the roller coaster of emotions that follow when something was taken from you. Rape is invasive whether it be sexual, physical or emotional. When something is taken from you beyond your will, it is rape and there is nothing more dehumanizing than discovering that all the strengths you had just isn't enough when it can be taken away from you so easily. My attacker has been released from his prison, but I am still trying to escape mine and sometimes I'm not sure if I have any strength to keep trying. Rape harmful? Oh, yes.

Quote from: "Wraitchel"

Quote from: "Wechtlein Uns"While rationally I understand how rape can be a damaging act to the female psyche, I can't help but feel a cold arrogance towards the victim-like mentality that these women go through. I find it hard to empathize or sympathize with these women have been damaged by rape, and as much as I try not to, still sometimes roll my eyes in exasperation.

I am shocked by how much the woman feels she has to go on feeling sorry for herself or continue berating herself for something that, rationally, can be explained quite easily. The man was either hard up but otherwise amorous, or was simply a loser trying to take out his frustrations of having no power on someone he percieves as weaker than him. In fact, it strikes me as strange that the woman doesn't strike back by twisting the man's fear of having no one: "So, you can't get any girls? Oh, poor baby, is that cause your dick is so small? You're not a real man. It's a good thing I'm a lesbian...ect"

And then there's the 15-year long trauma period. That just reeks of low self-esteem. I try to sympathize, of course. If I know a woman who's been raped, I rationally can understand where she's coming from, but after a week of listening to her self-loathing, honestly wish that she'd see herself not as a victim, but as the wonderful, beautiful, sexy proud woman she deserves to be.

Dude, I can appreciate your honesty, I suppose, but I think your head is up your ass. In another post, you admitted to having sympathy for the pedophiles. I'm guessing you can get inside the rapist's mentality, too, more easily than you can get into a victim's head. Perhaps you have been a victim, yourself, but can't begin to face the reality of that. Perhaps you have victimized others and cannot afford to feel sympathy. I would strongly suggest that you not pretend to have sympathy when you don't. In the long run, it is unkind to the woman you are fooling into trusting you with her vulnerability. I have been with men like you, and it did me no good. It's not like people enjoy being victimized and then taking years to heal from it. Healing takes time and the support of trustworthy people. That ain't you.

Garbage. Utter garbage. I don't know what the hell I was thinking when I was writing that. Yes, I DO feel sympathy for women as victims, but, and this is why I wrote that garbage in the previous post, I used to take pride in having unfeeling arrogance, as well as a cold, brutal voice. I'm still trying to shake it off. Sometimes I still say things that are intentionally calculated to invoke cold arrogance when I've had a bad day.

In reality, you are completely way off when you say you've been with men like me. That much I know. I'm nothing like the man my diction leads you to be, but therein lies my talents. Because, as you shall soon see, I can manipulate the written word to a very high level, subconciously affecting myself and others online depending upon what I am feeling at the very moment.

Believe me, I understand to the fullest that you shouldn't trust fully anybody on the internet, nor what you read on it, for that matter.
But for what it's worth, I try to be as honest as I can on this forum, even if I am a little "sensitive" to my moods.

Quote from: "thirteen31"

Quote from: "McQ"Wraitchel, I finally got to this thread and find it impressive and disturbing. However, I don't mean "disturbing" as though it doesn't belong here, but as an eye opening and needed topic. It's one of the topics that gets discussed too little. I find it impressive that you and others who have been raped can discuss it openly. Kudos for bringing it up and putting it here for us to talk about.

I agree, it takes a lot of courage to come forward and talk about painful experiences. I have experienced several traumatic experiences similar to those who have posted earlier. Rape is always harmful and destructive. I can relate to the roller coaster of emotions that follow when something was taken from you. Rape is invasive whether it be sexual, physical or emotional. When something is taken from you beyond your will, it is rape and there is nothing more dehumanizing than discovering that all the strengths you had just isn't enough when it can be taken away from you so easily. My attacker has been released from his prison, but I am still trying to escape mine and sometimes I'm not sure if I have any strength to keep trying. Rape harmful? Oh, yes.

*sigh*... yeah. You are absolutely right.
I can't imagine--no, I mean to say...

When I was talking about the pedophile thing, I remember typing that little kids shouldn't be forced into sex because they are not interested in it. If a woman, or a man, or anyone, is not interested in sex at a given moment in time, they should not be forced into it. And, I hate admitting it, but I should know that better than anyone.

Given that, however, I think I can understand my unfeeling reaction to rape. It's not because I don't care, or because I'm cold and arrogant, but because I'm so far removed from the situation that...well, I think If I get closer to the situation--yes. I think I've learned a little something about myself now. Sometimes I reminisce about being cold and arrogant...

Sorry I came out with my guns a blazing, Wechtlein. This is a sensitive topic, and I was insensitive. I have become a bit of a shrew in my middle age, and I hate it.

Quote from: "Wraitchel"Dude, I can appreciate your honesty, I suppose, but I think your head is up your ass. In another post, you admitted to having sympathy for the pedophiles. I'm guessing you can get inside the rapist's mentality, too, more easily than you can get into a victim's head. Perhaps you have been a victim, yourself, but can't begin to face the reality of that. Perhaps you have victimized others and cannot afford to feel sympathy. I would strongly suggest that you not pretend to have sympathy when you don't. In the long run, it is unkind to the woman you are fooling into trusting you with her vulnerability. I have been with men like you, and it did me no good. It's not like people enjoy being victimized and then taking years to heal from it. Healing takes time and the support of trustworthy people. That ain't you.

I tend to agree with Wetchlein slightly. If I, as a man, had a pitty party for however many times I had been raped (hypothetically) I think the majority of people would be telling me the same thing.

I too have a small dose of what you may call sympathy for pedophiles. Under the presumption you are heterosexual let's think of it this way: Society says for man and woman to have sex is as shameful and illegal as it is for an adult with a child is in the real world. Not that you would neceessrily resort to raping a man but nothing would stop you from lusting. Most likely there are many "would-be" pedophiles in the world. However they choose to do the noble thing and deny themselves the sexual satisfaction that society permits you.

logic dictates that it must be harmful, but how can any man properly empathise with a rape victim unless he himself has been raped.

Quote from: "spartacus"logic dictates that it must be harmful, but how can any man properly empathise with a rape victim unless he himself has been raped.

You don't have to experience the event to empathize. It would be like attending a funeral without knowing the deceased - you wouldn't go there to laugh, would you? No, you would empathize with the family.

No, I should be the one apologizing wraitchel. In truth, I was having a bit of a bad day when I wrote that. still, that's no excuse for me to say that. I am sorry.  

QuoteI'd love to discuss what you all really think of rape. Have you ever convinced someone to have sex with you who really didn't want to? Was it rape? Have you been raped or had sex when you didn't really want to? How does sex harm the victim? When is it the victim's fault, and does that condition nullify the harm or the culpability for the harm?

I have had a few friends who have been raped one 3 years ago while she was at college the dorm room it happened in was not 300 feet from my own. Personally I despise rapists, hell even cold blooded murders and serial killers hate rapists. As far as society goes it is the lowest of the low. I feel deep seated compassion for the victim loathing and abject hatred for the rapist. I have never convinced someone to have sex with me against their will though i have had the chance to do so. I believe it to be wrong to have sex with a drunken girl as well. I would not consider this rape but I do consider it taking advantage which is almost as bad. That said I feel more compassion for women than I do for men in general. If the man is drunk and the woman is not I see nothing wrong with it. (is that a contradiction, I wonder? I think that a person should always go into sex with their eyes as well as their ears wide open. If nothing else the NO! rule applies. If a person woman or man says no they mean it. Even when laughing it is important to stop. No means no people, there is no question there.

Sex with an unwilling partner can be very destructive to both parties. The to the rapist it is destructive to their obligations toward society and perhaps more importantly corrosive to the dignity of their humanity as a hole. (that said let them rot they are less than human in my eyes) The victim it is potentially physically destructive, certainly invasive of their human dignity and mentally scaring. From what I have been told it can make even the darkest alleys even darker.

It is never the victims fault. Can the victim be faulted for her specific actions of course. As an example a girl who gets drunk with a group of men of bad reputation can be held accountable for her negligence toward her own well being. A woman who dresses immodestly and walks into a bar full of bikers who she knows will leer, can be held accountable for her stupidity. In neither case could the woman ever be judged as accountable or at fault being raped. Even when a person has given complete consent to sex, the second they say no it is done, over and any more of an advance should be considered a violation. Their own accountability for their stupidity or negligence is never an excuse or a nullification of the rapists culpability. That said there are many cases where the woman is in no way accountable. An example being a woman walking down the street gets dragged into the back of a van and raped. she is in no way culpable or even accountable for anything. A woman being taken advantage of by a trusted coworker and raped is another example of a woman who is not accountable for any wrong. That is what I believe. And just so I do not appear sexist a man can be raped too it is just less likely. An example of a man would be a young college guy gets dragged into the back of a van and force fed Viagra and made into a sex slave. (though rare this has actually occurred.) Lets also not forget Catholic priests and their acolytes or confessionals. Or prison for another example.

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Quote from: "lese91"This will probably sound terrible, but why does it affect victims so much? I am a 17 year old female, but I don't understand how it is so emotionally destructive. I do think no one should ever be able to do anything to you without your permission, but why exactly does this certain forced act make people so upset?

Rape is the invasion of body and mind and it is a violation of basic human rights. When you state, 'make people so upset' are you referring to certain emotional responses that one could have after the rape? An emotional response is natural, to hide from those responses are not. Not everyone will be affected the same, but it doesn't make it any less emotional. How we respond to trauma is directly affected by the coping skills that we have in place before. Oftentimes, it is the shame of 'letting' it affect us that prevents us from finding the right life skills to better buffer the stress that is associated with rape. To the victim, it is said too often to 'just get over it' and shame and guilt prevent them from getting help.

Quote from: "lese91"I think the worst part would be thinking that they were going to kill me, any physical pain that it actually caused, stds, and pregnancy. If you do not get an std or become pregnant, why does it affect people for so long? If it hurts, the pain goes away after a while, it is short-term.

It depends upon the individual - you can't put a specific time frame for healing.

Quote from: "lese91"I am not saying that rape is ok, but i just dont understand why it should cause such an uproar. I am not trying to attack you at all, but am only curious. I am a virgin and young, so maybe there is some secret thing that I don't understand that makes sex so terrible and harming if you don't want it. Yes, I would be mad if someone forced me to have sex, and it would be against my rights, but why is there a need to get so depressed about it? I am really not trying to sound mean or judgmental, so please forgive me if I do!

To better understanding this, you would need an understanding of your own coping skills. Regardless of being a virgin or being young, trauma and abuse has no age boundaries and perhaps you have a great foundation of coping skills and feel confident to work through the trauma with minimal 'uproar' in your life, but one shouldn't be judged on their reaction to the trauma. Sex is not terrible and one shouldn't be harmed emotionally or physically because of the act. Sex, in itself, is a form of communication, and when one is not consenting, it can and usually does instill fear.

Quote from: "lese91"This will probably sound terrible, but why does it affect victims so much? I am a 17 year old female, but I don't understand how it is so emotionally destructive. I do think no one should ever be able to do anything to you without your permission, but why exactly does this certain forced act make people so upset? I think the worst part would be thinking that they were going to kill me, any physical pain that it actually caused, stds, and pregnancy. If you do not get an std or become pregnant, why does it affect people for so long? If it hurts, the pain goes away after a while, it is short-term. I am not saying that rape is ok, but i just dont understand why it should cause such an uproar. I am not trying to attack you at all, but am only curious. I am a virgin and young, so maybe there is some secret thing that I don't understand that makes sex so terrible and harming if you don't want it. Yes, I would be mad if someone forced me to have sex, and it would be against my rights, but why is there a need to get so depressed about it? I am really not trying to sound mean or judgmental, so please forgive me if I do!

But the pain doesn't always go away.  I have a plate in my head and I walk funny.  I have several visible physical scars to be sure I never forget, from the palm of my hand, to my forearm, to my breast, to my face, to the back of my head.   I've had seizures ever since (from the skull fracture) and every time I have one, I am reminded of why they happen.

I suspect that even if I didn't have all of these physical reminders, I'd still be reminded every time I was startled during sex or whenever a foolish lover decided to pin my wrists to the bed with his hands.

I direct you to a poem I wrote some time back to somewhat describe the emotions.  In it, I concentrated on the potency of the memories.

Inescapable (http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/619205/inescapable.html?cat=42)

Kylyssa, I am sorry to hear what happened to you; your poem is excellent, well-written and gets right to the point. Thank you for sharing.

Quote from: "Wraitchel"I am still trying to make men understand that rape is harmful. I know most men will give lip service to that statement, but I still think most are all too ready to blame the victim or dismiss the claim that harm was really done.

I guess I'll have to be the guy who points out how horribly offensive this statement is. I don't get offended very often, but this one got to me.

To say that most men will blame the victim, or claim that harm was really done is completely egregious. I don't blame you for feeling that way because of the horrible act that was committed upon you, but think about what you've said.

I myself, as a man, am disgusted by even the notion of rape. I'm not a violent person, but if any woman that I know was raped I would probably be in jail for violence against the rapist. This goes for pedophiles as well. And the vast majority of men I've ever associated with would probably feel the exact same way. I think to say that most(taken to mean the majority, is there any other way I can take this?) men would "give lip service" or "blame the victim" or "dismiss the claim that harm was really done" is a complete error. Again, I'm not blaming you, because I can understand why you hold that viewpoint, but that does not mean that I will not try to correct that line of thought.

I have never raped a woman, and think of it as a horribly unspeakable act. Like others on this thread, I commend you for speaking out against it and sharing your experiences, as hard as I imagine that would be to do. I have had women try to coerce me into having sex with them. Believe it or not, I have turned them down. Luckily for me, I was physically stronger than them, and they were unable to force it upon me. I can empathize with what it must be like to have that happen, and frankly, the thought sickens me. I have also had women who were intoxicated (I don't drink, so I was sober) who have wanted to have sex with me. I turned them down as well, although a few of them, I would have gladly accepted the offer had I felt they were making a rational decision at the time. So, to be painted with such a broad brush is offensive to me.

Perhaps you are correct and I am in the minority of males, but I doubt it. I think that, due to your experience, you find it easier to believe that the majority of men are that way. I hope that due to the examples from my own experiences, and due to the men in your life whom you spoke of who helped you "get past it", you can realize that not all men subscribe to the line of reasoning which you have set forth for us.

I apologize in advance if you did not truly mean most men with that statement, even though that is what was written. I would just like you to understand why that would come across as offensive to a man like me who has spent my life consciously doing everything I can to respect women, even at the expense of my own pleasure. If I did otherwise, I sure wouldn't think of myself as much of a man, and I feel that (deep down) the men who commit these horrible acts don't truly feel like much of a man themselves (even though they'd be to pathetic to admit it to themselves if they came to that realization).

And again, I am truly sorry that you (and others) on this thread had to experience the horrible things that you did.

Quote from: "Ihateyoumike"

Quote from: "Wraitchel"I am still trying to make men understand that rape is harmful. I know most men will give lip service to that statement, but I still think most are all too ready to blame the victim or dismiss the claim that harm was really done.

I guess I'll have to be the guy who points out how horribly offensive this statement is. I don't get offended very often, but this one got to me.

I don't know how I missed that statement.  I, too, am offended.  I have some men that I love and many that I respect and I can imagine none of them either raping or having an attitude that rape is harmless.  

If most of the men you know don't understand that rape is harmful I suggest you pack up your things and get out NOW.  Other than the men I knew who were actually abusers, I've never known any that would suggest I "walk it off" because no harm was really done.
 
My partner is so affected by the knowledge that it took me a while to get him to be comfortable with down and dirty sex.  "No, love, you aren't hurting me, that was a good noise, so get back in there and jackhammer me like a road crew."

Quote from: "Kylyssa""No, love, you aren't hurting me, that was a good noise, so get back in there and jackhammer me like a road crew."

That made me laugh my ass off.

Quote from: "karadan"The only experience i have of seeing what rape can do to someone was when i attended a court case for my sociology A-level. It really slapped me in the face as to how damaging to the mind of a person it is. I'll never forget how the poor woman was cross-examined. They brought up lewd stories from her past to try to discredit the motives of the man who raped her and by inferring she was simply a slut. It made me feel quite sick to see someone who'd been through such an ordeal be made to feel so worthless in front of lots of people. The man got off because there wasn't enough evidence.

To be fair, you have no idea if he actually raped her, you are making a massive assumption, possible emotionaly biased. For all you know she could be acting. I don't want to come across as uncaring or unsympathetic to rape victims, but each case must be considered on its merits. The judge/jury obviously thought the same way as me.

As an aside, I find the false reporting of rapes almost as abhorrant as the act istelf. In my oppinion false reporting of a rape should carry a similar sentance to rape itself. The example above shows how damaging even the suggestion of rape can be on someone's character.

Quote from: "SSY"

Quote from: "karadan"The only experience i have of seeing what rape can do to someone was when i attended a court case for my sociology A-level. It really slapped me in the face as to how damaging to the mind of a person it is. I'll never forget how the poor woman was cross-examined. They brought up lewd stories from her past to try to discredit the motives of the man who raped her and by inferring she was simply a slut. It made me feel quite sick to see someone who'd been through such an ordeal be made to feel so worthless in front of lots of people. The man got off because there wasn't enough evidence.

To be fair, you have no idea if he actually raped her, you are making a massive assumption, possible emotionaly biased. For all you know she could be acting. I don't want to come across as uncaring or unsympathetic to rape victims, but each case must be considered on its merits. The judge/jury obviously thought the same way as me.

As an aside, I find the false reporting of rapes almost as abhorrant as the act istelf. In my oppinion false reporting of a rape should carry a similar sentance to rape itself. The example above shows how damaging even the suggestion of rape can be on someone's character.

I can understand your mentioning that you think that false reporting of a rape should carry a similar sentence to rape itself. I think that would be a very despicable thing for someone to do. The false accusation could lead to just as much emotional harm for the person being accused, as a rape would to a person who has been raped. Not to mention what it would do to them socially, and even physically if family or friends of the accuser lashed out against the accused.

In the example above, the man was deemed not guilty due to lack of evidence. This does not give me 100% confidence that the man in that example was innocent of the crime of rape. Unfortunately, our judicial system is far from perfect. It certainly wouldn't give me enough confidence to say that since that man was not found guilty, that the woman should have to pay for the crime of falsely accusing the man.

She may have been acting. He may have been as well. The court, which has that nagging innocent-until-proven-guilty policy makes this a hard subject. Again, the man may have not been proven guilty, but we don't have enough facts to assume that means that he is 100% innocent. I'm assuming the courts didn't either, because they don't have to worry much about proving him innocent, just guilty.
So, would the answer be to hold another trial to see if the person who made the rape accusation was doing it criminally on purpose? Would that scenario further hinder rape victims from speaking up against their attacker if they knew they would have to face trial themselves if they did not have enough proof that they were raped? Would it be a good thing?
I don't think so. I don't think making that a criminal case would be an overall good idea at all. I think it's already hard enough for the victims of rape to come forward as it is.

As for the damage to the character of the falsely accused person, I'm no lawyer, but I'm pretty sure that is what civil court and lawsuits are used for. Granted, it may not ever get rid of the damage done to the persons character by winning those lawsuits, but what about a girl who was actually raped only to see the rapist get set free due to a lack of proof? Unfortunately, it's not fair to the person who is on the receiving end of any crime, and "swift justice" against those people who committed the crime does not usually erase the effects of the crime. But I think that people who have been the victims of crimes such as these need to be able to speak up against their attackers without fear of legal retaliation against them if they do not have enough evidence to prove their claims. That would seem to be counterproductive to me.

I truly think rapist are the lowest of the low, and can't think of a more brutal crime that takes more time to get over.  Although some people (and I choose people because men/boys are also raped) are able to get over it being relatively okay, but I think the majority of people have long term issues that may not always be those of conscious thinking.  I had two children by a boyfriend who raped me repeatedly over the course of years, and my son is the spitting image of him.  He is now in prison after being convicted as a serial rapist (don't think I don't feel getting for running away and not telling anyone how he was) so I don't fear anything physically but I do have emotional and intimacy issues that have led to some funky social behavior.  I was quite slutty for several years in my 20s and then failed in two marriages and now have a boyfriend of five years that I never even consider having sex with as it's something that really never comes to mind as fun.  Even though I don't consciously think of it I know it screwed me up, and every now and then when I look at my son and see a glimpse of an identical manerism it sickens me a little.  My daughter dies when she was almost two during my first flee attempt, and he had no problem raping me in front of my son.  So, saying that it has long term effects is not an exageration.  The numerous women he raped during his spree (his oldes victim being 68 years old, youngest 17) were strangers to him so hopefully they are having a better go at it.  When I say that I think rapist deserve the death penalty I am of course biased, that doens't mean I don't still think it and can only hope that they are enjoying the same treatment in prison they inflicted on the outside world.

Quote from: "SSY"To be fair, you have no idea if he actually raped her, you are making a massive assumption, possible emotionaly biased. For all you know she could be acting. I don't want to come across as uncaring or unsympathetic to rape victims, but each case must be considered on its merits. The judge/jury obviously thought the same way as me.

As an aside, I find the false reporting of rapes almost as abhorrant as the act istelf. In my oppinion false reporting of a rape should carry a similar sentance to rape itself. The example above shows how damaging even the suggestion of rape can be on someone's character.

Totally agree with this SSY.  The worst thing going against legitimate cases of rape in court are all of the liars that claim "he raped me" because they were a drunk slut and wake up embarrassed the next day.  The liars are the ones that cause so much trouble for women/men who have actually been raped.  It's hard for people to believe when they re in court because they've seen or heard lies before and you kind of lean towards the benefit of the doubt because the defendent just doesn't look like a rapist.

I think there should be severe penalties for filing fake claims of rape, not the slap on the hand things they do now.  They should be legally penalized and should have to pay restitution to the person they lied about.

Quote from: "Ihateyoumike"I can understand your mentioning that you think that false reporting of a rape should carry a similar sentence to rape itself. I think that would be a very despicable thing for someone to do. The false accusation could lead to just as much emotional harm for the person being accused, as a rape would to a person who has been raped. Not to mention what it would do to them socially, and even physically if family or friends of the accuser lashed out against the accused.

In the example above, the man was deemed not guilty due to lack of evidence. This does not give me 100% confidence that the man in that example was innocent of the crime of rape. Unfortunately, our judicial system is far from perfect. It certainly wouldn't give me enough confidence to say that since that man was not found guilty, that the woman should have to pay for the crime of falsely accusing the man.

She may have been acting. He may have been as well. The court, which has that nagging innocent-until-proven-guilty policy makes this a hard subject. Again, the man may have not been proven guilty, but we don't have enough facts to assume that means that he is 100% innocent. I'm assuming the courts didn't either, because they don't have to worry much about proving him innocent, just guilty.
So, would the answer be to hold another trial to see if the person who made the rape accusation was doing it criminally on purpose? Would that scenario further hinder rape victims from speaking up against their attacker if they knew they would have to face trial themselves if they did not have enough proof that they were raped? Would it be a good thing?
I don't think so. I don't think making that a criminal case would be an overall good idea at all. I think it's already hard enough for the victims of rape to come forward as it is.

As for the damage to the character of the falsely accused person, I'm no lawyer, but I'm pretty sure that is what civil court and lawsuits are used for. Granted, it may not ever get rid of the damage done to the persons character by winning those lawsuits, but what about a girl who was actually raped only to see the rapist get set free due to a lack of proof? Unfortunately, it's not fair to the person who is on the receiving end of any crime, and "swift justice" against those people who committed the crime does not usually erase the effects of the crime. But I think that people who have been the victims of crimes such as these need to be able to speak up against their attackers without fear of legal retaliation against them if they do not have enough evidence to prove their claims. That would seem to be counterproductive to me.

Rape is very, very difficult crime to prove/disprove becuase of the private nature. A one on one situation with no witnesses will usually come down to one word against another, this is part of the low conviction rate for rape.

In our example of the guy above, you are right you can't be 100% certain he was a rapist, I would never suggest you could be, but equally, you must acknowledge the fact that there is no garuntees he was a rapist either. I agree there should be a seperate burden of proof for the accused's possible innocence, and the acusers possible guilt. If it could be proved that the sex was consential/non existant ( ie, the accused had an alibi, and was at a different place ), then I think a conviction based on a false report would be entirley appropriate. Not ebing able to prove a rape claim would not garner a conviction, but if it could be proved the rape claim was false ( different things there ), then that is an entirley different matter.

In your post you sound as though you have come to conclusion of this mans guilt, and you think the only reason he got off was a lack of evidence, you fail to acknowledge the lack of evidence may be due to lack of rape.

A civil court case would not clear an accused's name, there is still collasal stigma attached to it. Whats really important though is the fact that an innocent person could go to prison, for a long time, based on a false claim, that risk is no adequetley responded to with a civil lawsuit.

When I looked up some info about fasle reporting, I was shocked at the levels some reports claim, if these are accurate, there will be a lot of lives ruined by this.

I'm not saying I think most men would commit rape. I just think that when it is inconvenient for them to deal with the scars some other man left behind, some will try to make light of it. The evidence is right here in this thread. I am not talking about the man I married. He has never made light of anything that hurt me, even when he did not fully understand.

The thing I see is that too many men and women say, that some 16 year old who had "consensual sex" with an old codger pedophile was only getting what she wanted and was not hurt. That if she simply got talked into something she later regretted, then we need not feel sorry for her. That is not what happened to me, but having gotten myself into a different kind of trouble once, it is easy for me to understand how harmful it must be for some of these girls. I was the kind of kid who did not know how to say no because I was brought up by an alcoholic and a borderliner. I am not the only bright eyed baby like that. That is one of the many reasons you should not have sex with someone under age.

Of course any sane, loving man is outraged by a classic, violent, forceful rape....but where do you draw your line of sympathy? I feel bad for the 16 year old victimized by that nasty pastor. No way did she want to screw that foul geezer before he worked his manipulation on her. I bet she felt as dirty as used toilet paper when he was done with her, and too ashamed to talk, too late to stop it.... She was trapped. And worst of all, she knows everyone thinks she wanted it like that. I bet she didn't.

Statury rape is entirley different in my view, in England, your example of a 16 year old girl would be fine, agreeing on an age of responsability is difficult.

About being "talked into something", I think I will have to disagree. If a girl decides to have sex with someone ( consensual ), then she has obviously weighed up her options and chosen one or the other. If she makes this choice badly, then that is really her own fault, and I am sure we have all had sexual encounters we later regretted ( I know I have ).
Note, i preclude threats from this, threatening soeone into having sex with you is rape, no two ways about it.

Your post is also telling in that you only consider girls being raped, you make no mention about boys who have sex with their teachers, this in my view is an example of the double standards present in this arena, they are very common place, people see a male teacher haveing sex with his student as victimization, but a boy haveing sex with his teacher a studly acheivement.

Quote from: "SSY"In your post you sound as though you have come to conclusion of this mans guilt, and you think the only reason he got off was a lack of evidence, you fail to acknowledge the lack of evidence may be due to lack of rape.

I apologize for that. I did not mean to have it come across that way. I am the type of person who rereads my posts multiple times before I post to try and make sure I get my point across the way I intend for it to come across, but I apparently failed.
In no way did I want to make the argument that I automatically felt the guy was innocent due to lack of evidence.
I was simply trying to make a point that I think it could be more detrimental to reporting of actual rapes if the person reporting the rape is in fear of legal retaliation if the rape is not proved to have happened.
I don't have any numbers for this, but I would guess that the number of unreported actual rapes probably outnumbers the number of people falsely accused of rape. I'd like to see actual rapes be reported more often, and this is just me thinking what might hinder that happening.

edit: I hope this makes sense. Some topics are harder than others to convey my ideas about without accidently making myself look foolish.

Quote from: "Wraitchel"I just think that when it is inconvenient for them to deal with the scars some other man left behind, some will try to make light of it. The evidence is right here in this thread.

Will you please quote this "evidence" from this thread of men making light of rape? I've seen nothing but thoughtful discussion on the subject, so I'd just like to know if I'm missing something.

Quote from: "Wechtlein Uns"While rationally I understand how rape can be a damaging act to the female psyche, I can't help but feel a cold arrogance towards the victim-like mentality that these women go through. I find it hard to empathize or sympathize with these women have been damaged by rape, and as much as I try not to, still sometimes roll my eyes in exasperation.

Didn't you read this one?

Quote from: "SSY"Your post is also telling in that you only consider girls being raped, you make no mention about boys who have sex with their teachers, this in my view is an example of the double standards present in this arena, they are very common place, people see a male teacher haveing sex with his student as victimization, but a boy haveing sex with his teacher a studly acheivement.

Just because I didn't mention rape of boys doesn't mean that I have double standards. In fact, I think that in many cases it is even more traumatic for a boy because their shame over being a victim may be greater. One of my dear male friends was raped repeated by his mother. You really have no basis for saying I don't appreciate the concerns of men who are raped just because we have not talked about the subject here.  We started all this in response to the pastor pedophile who raped a 16 year old girl, and then we moved on to personal experiences of  *women* here. We simply haven't been talking about male victims yet.

As for boys who have sex with their teacher, I do believe that it is equally reprehensible of the teacher. As for whether or not the boy is a victim, that is probably case by case, just as it is with girls.

Quote from: "Wraitchel"

Quote from: "Wechtlein Uns"While rationally I understand how rape can be a damaging act to the female psyche, I can't help but feel a cold arrogance towards the victim-like mentality that these women go through. I find it hard to empathize or sympathize with these women have been damaged by rape, and as much as I try not to, still sometimes roll my eyes in exasperation.

Didn't you read this one?

Yes, I did. I also read the apology by Wechtlein:

Quote from: "Wechtlein Uns"Garbage. Utter garbage. I don't know what the hell I was thinking when I was writing that. Yes, I DO feel sympathy for women as victims, but, and this is why I wrote that garbage in the previous post, I used to take pride in having unfeeling arrogance, as well as a cold, brutal voice. I'm still trying to shake it off. Sometimes I still say things that are intentionally calculated to invoke cold arrogance when I've had a bad day.

In reality, you are completely way off when you say you've been with men like me. That much I know. I'm nothing like the man my diction leads you to be, but therein lies my talents. Because, as you shall soon see, I can manipulate the written word to a very high level, subconciously affecting myself and others online depending upon what I am feeling at the very moment.

Believe me, I understand to the fullest that you shouldn't trust fully anybody on the internet, nor what you read on it, for that matter.
But for what it's worth, I try to be as honest as I can on this forum, even if I am a little "sensitive" to my moods.

I also read your apology to him:

Quote from: "Wraitchel"Sorry I came out with my guns a blazing, Wechtlein. This is a sensitive topic, and I was insensitive. I have become a bit of a shrew in my middle age, and I hate it.

Then I read another apology, by him, to you:

Quote from: "Wechtlein Uns"No, I should be the one apologizing wraitchel. In truth, I was having a bit of a bad day when I wrote that. still, that's no excuse for me to say that. I am sorry.

But then you wrote this statement, which I took offense to, and you have been defending ever since:

Quote from: "Wraitchel"I am still trying to make men understand that rape is harmful. I know most men will give lip service to that statement, but I still think most are all too ready to blame the victim or dismiss the claim that harm was really done.

Granted, you have gone from using the wording "most men" to "some men" since I have pointed it out:

Quote from: "Wraitchel"I'm not saying I think most men would commit rape. I just think that when it is inconvenient for them to deal with the scars some other man left behind, some will try to make light of it. The evidence is right here in this thread. I am not talking about the man I married. He has never made light of anything that hurt me, even when he did not fully understand.

The problem, as it seems to me, is that your view of men has been horribly skewed by the trauma you went through. It seems that you feel that most men are that way, and are not willing to apologize when you offend men who are not that way when you make a blanket statement. I do not expect an apology for the blanket statement, and the defense of the statement, because I do not need one. I would like for you to see that making statements such as that can make you look as if you are overly bitter and are unable to to look past your own biases towards men.
I do hope that you do not take this as a post showing that I have no sympathy or empathy towards your situation, or that I am asking you to "get over it." I am simply hoping to point out that there are quite a few men posting on this thread alone that show that your assessments into the minds of men are not quite accurate. It sounds as though your husband is another proof of that, and I'm happy for you that you have that support. I just ask that you try to see that not all of us are out to degrade women, or even most of us.

Quote from: "Ihateyoumike"The problem, as it seems to me, is that your view of men has been horribly skewed by the trauma you went through. It seems that you feel that most men are that way, and are not willing to apologize when you offend men who are not that way when you make a blanket statement. I do not expect an apology for the blanket statement, and the defense of the statement, because I do not need one. I would like for you to see that making statements such as that can make you look as if you are overly bitter and are unable to to look past your own biases towards men.
I do hope that you do not take this as a post showing that I have no sympathy or empathy towards your situation, or that I am asking you to "get over it." I am simply hoping to point out that there are quite a few men posting on this thread alone that show that your assessments into the minds of men are not quite accurate. It sounds as though your husband is another proof of that, and I'm happy for you that you have that support. I just ask that you try to see that not all of us are out to degrade women, or even most of us.

I think you're enjoying being offended by me, as if I gave half a crap. I hate you mike. You are completely failing to understand my every utterance.

Quote from: "Wraitchel"I think you're enjoying being offended by me, as if I gave half a crap. I hate you mike. You are completely failing to understand my every utterance.

Yikes. I must have been confused, all this time I thought this was a civil discussion we were having. I guess I missed it turning malicious. My bad.

Wraitchel, I think you're being very unfair to Ihatemike, he is not failing to understand your "every utterance". You did use the words "most men", perhaps not really thinking about it, and that would indicate an unfair bias, although of course I don't mean "unfair" to imply that its not understandeable why you would have such a bias.

I just don't get people who are offended by this stuff. How is it civil to tell me that my statement about "most men" is offensive. It's not like I said all men, or YOU. I speak from 43 years of experience. Be offended if you must, but be aware that it is hurtful to me that you turn my pain into something personal to you, for you to be offended by.

If I am uncivil in return, it is because my self-defense is anger.

R

Quote from: "Miss Anthrope"Wraitchel, I think you're being very unfair to Ihatemike, he is not failing to understand your "every utterance". You did use the words "most men", perhaps not really thinking about it, and that would indicate an unfair bias, although of course I don't mean "unfair" to imply that its not understandeable why you would have such a bias.

You think I am biased against most men. I think you are naive. I am thinking of that George Carlin joke: Think about how stupid the average person is...half are even dumber than that. This forum probably represents a more intelligent, better educated, wealthier group than most. Of course the people here, and probably most of the people they know are good folk, not at all prone to doubting the victim. Angelic little atheists, to a man. Think about the average moron in this wonderful  nation of ours, though. Do you really think I am wrong to assume he, like most, thinks Anita Hill was in the wrong when she accused Clarence Thomas of sexual misconduct? Do you really think I am wrong when I say that most men doubt the gravity of victimization? I think many women do, too. Sorry if I have a grim view of men. I still don't understand why my personal belief should offend anyone. I have not pointed to any one person (at least not until I was asked for proof). Wechlein and I made our peace. I bear no grudge against him, but I would never in a million years date him because I believe he showed his true colors in the statement I quoted.

Quote from: "Wraitchel"You think I am biased against most men.

Yes.

Quote from: "Wraitchel"Do you really think I am wrong when I say that most men doubt the gravity of victimization?

Yes.

Quote from: "Wraitchel"Sorry if I have a grim view of men. I still don't understand why my personal belief should offend anyone.

You've made that quite apparent.
That is why I am taking myself out of this conversation with you.

Quote from: "Wraitchel"I just don't get people who are offended by this stuff. How is it civil to tell me that my statement about "most men" is offensive. It's not like I said all men, or YOU. I speak from 43 years of experience. Be offended if you must, but be aware that it is hurtful to me that you turn my pain into something personal to you, for you to be offended by.

If I am uncivil in return, it is because my self-defense is anger.

R

That's why I said it was understandeable, and I personally was not angered by it. I'm a guy, I see my gender characterized as dumb cavemen who think with their penises on a regular basis, and that's why I barely took notice at the "most men" comment. I'm used to it. What I'm trying to say is that making generalizations based on personal experience is biased and going to raise eyebrows. If a person who's experiences with members of a specific minority were mostly negative and painful said "Most [insert ethnicity] are [insert negative comment]...", would that mean members of that ethnicity would be wrong to take offense? Being offended by a generalization is not the same as turning your pain into something personal for ones' self. I'll defend your right to have the feeligs you have to the death, I mean if you were a full-out man-hater because of what happened to you I wouldn't blame you at all. But in a forum environment, where all people are seeing is words on a screen, you have to be more specific when it comes to statements based on subjective experience. It will not help your cause (educating men about the harm of rape) if you make generalizations about them while educating them that basically say "You're a guy, so odds are you think rape isn't that big a deal." And it further hurts your cause to strip them of their right to be offended by generailzations by making them feel guilty.
Some guys would use your reply to me as a justification for beleiving that rape victims will take advantage of their victim-status. PLEASE don't interpet that as something else to be hurt by, I'm on your side, but to really get your point home you need to stay objective and be willing to allow the men you're talking to to voice how they feel about what you're saying. Seriously, think about the type of men who would actually doubt the victimhood of a rape victim: These are the same type of men who are probably opposed to feminism and are most likely emotionally stunted, so you're not going to have much luck in appealing to them with statemetns that come across as anti-male and becoming uncivil because of your anger, and you could also alientate the guys who ARE on your side, if for no other reason than becasue they feel that all of their personal feelings have to be kept bottled up for fear of hurting you by being offended. This kind of thing will only lead to more negative emotions on both sides, and then a thread which could be useful ends up coming to a halt.

Quote from: "Miss Anthrope"...and you could also alientate the guys who ARE on your side, if for no other reason than becasue they feel that all of their personal feelings have to be kept bottled up for fear of hurting you by being offended. This kind of thing will only lead to more negative emotions on both sides, and then a thread which could be useful ends up coming to a halt.

Well said MissA.

Quote from: "Ihateyoumike"

Quote from: "Wraitchel"Sorry if I have a grim view of men. I still don't understand why my personal belief should offend anyone.

You've made that quite apparent.
That is why I am taking myself out of this conversation with you.

Ugg, after reading her last reply to me, I think I'm gonna have to follow your lead.

Sorry Wraitchel, I don't like being called naive and I don't like it when people who demand understanding aren't willing to offer it themselves.

"You think I am biased against most men. I think you are naive." - For what, thinking something you consistently admit? Or for not sharing your view about my gender? Nothing in the statement of mine that you quoted had anything to do with naivete, unless you expect me to share your bias. So not only does it hurt you when people are offended by your belief, but they're naive for not embracing it?

Based on your reasoning,which was further elaborated upon in your second reply to me, it's OK to say things like "Most black people are morons", and it would be wrong for a black person to take offense?

I'm sympathetic to your issues, and wish you the best, but I'm not getting involved in any more of these kinds of one-sided threads.



EDIT:

Quote from: "Ihateyoumike"Well said MissA.

ThenkU

Miss A, you and mikey backed me into a corner telling me how offensive my statement is. DO you think it was my intent to offend? I was talking about a personal viewpoint which you both claim to understand, but choose to diminish by chalking it up to my victim status. I did not intend to offend. You chose to take offense. I should have left it alone. I hate it when people get all PC and take offense over some innocent, subjective statement of belief. Now I am a misogynist=racist, right? I reject that label. I think most men are insensitive morons and most women are judgmental bitches....whatever their color, creed, or nationality. As a self-advertised misanthropist, you should get the even handedness of that.

Quote from: "Wraitchel"IHYM, I am at peace with your last statement and hope to have no more bad feelings between us. Perhaps we can agree to disagree on our personal views on whether or not most men are cavemen. I really don't think they are.

Sounds fair.  

Sorry IHYM, I edited my post as you posted yours. I am trying not to escalate the conflict, and feared that my last response would be too inflammatory. Thanks for accepting the olive branch.

Do you folks think we might try to go for understanding first? Perhaps a bit more civility? Seems like this is getting more heated. It looks to me like people have tried to express themselves as best they could. Try the "wait before you respond" approach, gang. Cool off a bit first. Thanks to all.  

Quote from: "McQ"Do you folks think we might try to go for understanding first? Perhaps a bit more civility? Seems like this is getting more heated. It looks to me like people have tried to express themselves as best they could. Try the "wait before you respond" approach, gang. Cool off a bit first. Thanks to all.  

My first post was a call for understanding, my second one was pretty fair, I think, and now, after being called naive for not being misogynistic against my own gender, I've become the bad guy. I never called her a rascist, I was drawing a parallel. Now she apparently has harsh words she's holding back from tagging me with. Did I write anything that was that inflammatory?

EDIT: She just removed the part about holding back harsh tags. She changed it to this "I think most men are insensitive morons and most women are judgmental bitches....whatever their color, creed, or nationality. As a self-advertised misanthropist, you should get the even handedness of that."

And no, I don't, as a misanthrope I beleive humanity is flawed in general, I don't agree with unfair generalizations about specific groups, and I would never call women "judgemental bitches".  That type of thinking is one of the reasons I'm a misanthrope.

But to be clear once again, it is not my concern what she thinks about men anyway, even in my first post I said I could understand. I never expressed ANY personal offense at what she said (not until she suggested I was naive for not embracing her viewpoint), not once, but she still thinks that is my problem. I was pretty clear about my logic that blanket statements about specific groups are bound to cause offense, and thus are a terrible way to precede a call for understanding from the group in question.

I'm not heated against her, I'm very sympathetic, but she isn't showing any type of understanding, just gross misinterpretations of my words and intent.

RE-EDIT: Oh, I just wanted to clarify that Wraitchel didn't edit that one part after I posted this reply, it was like that after I posted, so I was not suggesting she did it to cover-up anything. I'm not out to spite her or cause her trouble at all. I just want this to be known, not just to her but to everybody:

Taking an anti-male stance will not help in an attempt to enlighten the type of men who need to realize how horrible the effects of rape are.

Quote from: "McQ"Do you folks think we might try to go for understanding first? Perhaps a bit more civility? Seems like this is getting more heated. It looks to me like people have tried to express themselves as best they could. Try the "wait before you respond" approach, gang. Cool off a bit first. Thanks to all.  

Yep, I'm all for it.

Quote from: "Wechtlein Uns"While rationally I understand how rape can be a damaging act to the female psyche, I can't help but feel a cold arrogance towards the victim-like mentality that these women go through. I find it hard to empathize or sympathize with these women have been damaged by rape, and as much as I try not to, still sometimes roll my eyes in exasperation.

I am shocked by how much the woman feels she has to go on feeling sorry for herself or continue berating herself for something that, rationally, can be explained quite easily. The man was either hard up but otherwise amorous, or was simply a loser trying to take out his frustrations of having no power on someone he percieves as weaker than him. In fact, it strikes me as strange that the woman doesn't strike back by twisting the man's fear of having no one: "So, you can't get any girls? Oh, poor baby, is that cause your dick is so small? You're not a real man. It's a good thing I'm a lesbian...ect"

And then there's the 15-year long trauma period. That just reeks of low self-esteem. I try to sympathize, of course. If I know a woman who's been raped, I rationally can understand where she's coming from, but after a week of listening to her self-loathing, honestly wish that she'd see herself not as a victim, but as the wonderful, beautiful, sexy proud woman she deserves to be.

I'm afraid you don't understand just how much damage rape actually does. I like to think of myself as a fairly rational person. For example, I think that science is our best tool for understanding the natural world we live in. But an experience like rape damages people. It causes serious mental illness. It prevents them from thinking rationally. And rape isn't the only thing that causes that. Any kind of trauma can hinder people from thinking rationally and I'm sure there are others I don't know about. Mental illness.

I was raped when I was 9. I developed post traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). The symptoms of that disease persist to this day (22 years later). Those include (in order of severity) dissociation, depression, flashbacks, alcohol abuse, auditory hallucinations and hyper-vigilance. Dissociation is the worst symptom. I have two minds. A person who is lucky enough to only have one mind cannot possibly imagine how debilitating that is to have someone you hate living in your head. And the events that caused that lasted about 15 minutes. I imagine even torture isn't that bad.

Because it might interest some folks I'll tell you what actually caused the damage in my case. It wasn't the rape. That might surprise some people. The physical invasion of my body was bad but it wasn't enough to do that level of damage. What actually caused the damage in my case was the attitude that my society has towards rape. The problem with being a rape victim is you feel personally responsible for it (especially if you are a young child). You know rape is wrong and you feel like you are responsible. Let that simmer for 20 years with no psychiatric help and it does a whole lot of harm.

This will seem strange coming from a rape victim. You won't understand if you haven't been raped as a child. I honestly think if I lived in a society that accepted pederasty I would actually be better off. It's the attitudes of society that actually does the harm over time, more so than the rape itself. I'm not suggesting we change our society so that adults can have sex with children. That is obviously wrong. But I think it's interesting to note what does the damage and work that into the solution.

Interesting. You mention the attitude society has towards rape, are you talking about blaming the victim? I would be interested to know how this manifested in your case, though am mindful that you may not want to relive it.

In particular, you said you felt responsible for it, was this caused by a direct societal influence or do you think the lack of counselling was enough for these feelings to arise?

In the society I lived in (the UK) and now live in (the US), the attitude towards rape seems to me to be one of profound disgust towards the rapist. This is quite justified. Perversely, rape victims tend to translate that to profound disgust towards the rape itself, which they, irrationally, feel partly responsible for. I don't think I am unusual in that respect, I've heard similar things from other rape victims. Feeling responsible for the rape is not the fault of our society's attitude towards rape. And specifically, I have not found that the attitude of society is to blame the victim, although if you look at some of the previous posts on this thread, you might see that to a small degree. It's really just part of the psychology of the rape victim.

If I could suggest how society might change to be kinder towards the rape victim, I would say that it should be quite explicit about directing its disgust towards the rapist rather than the rape itself and to be more explicitly supportive of the rape victim.

In my case, I think the lack of immediate counseling and treatment following the rape was also a major contributing factor to the symptoms I now have.