So, for reasons unknown to me, this thread totally didn't even have a chance to die on WWGHA. No one commented. So, I'm trying again.
Justin: Have you ever heard Anslem's Proof of God?
Courtney: Nope.
Justin: It's pretty interesting. Goes like this...
Justin: If we believe God to be that than which nothing greater can be conceived and if it is greater to exist necessarily and actually than to exist contingently then God exists.
Courtney: Hm.
Justin: It's an interesting syllogism and it's rock solid, logically.
Courtney: It just leaves the definition of God a bit vague.
Justin: Then Anslem goes on for a few hundred pages to try and prove that the God just proven is the Christian God which, obviously, doesn't go so well but that proof there is awesome.
I think Gaunilo's Perfect Island is a good argument against the Ontological Argument for God:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontological_argument#Gaunilo.27s_island
Edit: Deleted.
Who is this Justin, and why does it seem like I want to hit him really hard with a 2x4? Or maybe just a truck....
okay, so anselm's argument does seem really wordy and kind of silly at first. but it does raise the question that descartes posed: where do we get our idea of god from? i mean, if we had this concept of god, as christians do, of being omniscience, omnipresent, omnipotent... where would we have gotten it from? how did we, finite and imperfect, think up a being who is everything we are not? descartes believed that the cause of any effect must have as much reality as that effect...
so how did we, imperfect and finite, come up with god? what is the source of our idea?
liketolearn, I'll just assume you mean the god of Abraham. That being said, this is just the first cause argument stated differently.
Moreover, from where does any idea in literature(or any of the creative arts) spring forth? Some of it, such as Macbeth, are taken from previous history. Some, such as Slaughterhouse-Five. spring from personal experience. Some, such as Dark Side of the Moon, seem to come from....(wait for it)... the dark side of the moon.
With all that being said, some theists would say all creativity springs forth as a gift from god. Buddhists would say past life experience gives you your current abilities, and that life and time have no beginning or end. Thusly, just because our current lives have a beginning and end does not mean that existence has a beginning or end.
I would say that the idea of god and gods(why should we not include oh great and powerful Zeus) comes from an inability to explain natural phenomenon. We, as humans, like to wrap stuff up in neat little bundles. "Why did my crops fail? Well, Demeter must've been in a bad mood." -but where did Demeter come from? Someone made her up.
Where do ideas and creativity come from? I don't know. If I did know it all, I'd be god.
Quote from: "liketolearn"so how did we, imperfect and finite, come up with god? what is the source of our idea?
I'd say it's precisely
because we are so imperfect and "finite" that we ended up creating an idea of something that would fill in all those blanks and make up for all those shortcomings. We wanted (easy) answers for extremely difficult questions.
why is it that theists always put down humanity?
we give into temptation, we're weak frail beings, we can't come up with the idea of perfection, oh we're nothing without god!!
I think if the world put a little less of their faith into the supernatural and more into humanity we'd surprise ourselves.
People have been coming up with original ideas for centuries. Why is it so difficult for believers to acknowledge that god could very well be an invention of the human mind. I mean let's be honest, it IS the ultimate fantasy, isn't it? Eternal life and so forth. It's the perfect solution to everybody's biggest, most fundamental fears.
Quote from: "liketolearn"okay, so anselm's argument does seem really wordy and kind of silly at first. but it does raise the question that descartes posed: where do we get our idea of god from? i mean, if we had this concept of god, as christians do, of being omniscience, omnipresent, omnipotent... where would we have gotten it from? how did we, finite and imperfect, think up a being who is everything we are not? descartes believed that the cause of any effect must have as much reality as that effect...
so how did we, imperfect and finite, come up with god? what is the source of our idea?
Deities are the conceptual embodiment of everything we cannot do. By extension it relieves us (now it is more complex i.e. organized religion) of the stressors of our own lives and ultimate mortality. My quick two cents.