Happy Atheist Forum

This is an article written by IanD from the WWGHA forum for exchristians.net but I think it deserves promotion here too:

original location:  
http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2006 ... ancer.html (http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2006/06/its-like-cancer.html)

Quote"…It's too bad that you're going to Hell…"

"…Hope you enjoy your special place in HELL…"

"…Hope you have an asbestos suit, cause you're going to HELL…"

It's 2:40 in the morning on June 16th, 2006. I'm sitting in front of my computer, my eyes weary, my legs sweaty, and my heart and mind heavy with anger.

What a lousy way to end your first day of being twenty years old.

Why am I here? It's because of this cancer that I have, buried deep within me. It's not cancer in a medical sense. You cannot see it with a microscope, you cannot cut it away with a laser. Yet it's there, buried deep within me.

It's the cancer of fear.

Only now, two years after leaving Christianity for good, do its effects finally start appearing. It's ironic in a way. Fear was the first thing that brought me into Christianity, and it's the last thing that clings to me after I left it. It was the threat of hell that brought me into it, and it's the threat of hell that hangs over my head.

Two years. In two years one would think that I'd have this licked by now. I've read and researched. I've learned about how Christianity is just another religion that borrows elements from other religions such as the dying and resurrecting Godman, the concept of hell from some religion from the east (is it Zaoitrism?). I've read hundreds of near death experiences and hundreds of accounts of a loving God who loves us all unconditionally, who doesn't judge us and who just loves us.

Yet…that damn cancer is still here. It's still festering within me. No matter what I do, no matter how hard I try, I just can't get rid of it. If I had a knife I'd cut it out of me. Slice open the skin and dig this little fucker out of me. Take it and crush it in my hand. Watch as it writhes in pain, watch as it's blood seeps through my fingers and drips onto the ground. Watch as this little sonofabitch dies a painful death.

I'd make it feel the fear, the worry, the depression, the horrible feelings I got from it. How it snaked out after me to try and scare me. How it's kept me awake at night worrying, how it's followed me through the day. God how I hate it. I hate this cancer. I'd exchange a physical cancer if it meant that this horrible cancer of fear was gone forever, never to return.

But I can't do that. And even now, as I type these words in the darkness of the morning, I can still feel it within me. The doubt, the worry, all of it just simmering below the surface.

***

Why is it that fear is used so much these days? Why is it that Christianity, a religion that is supposed to be about love and peace, instead uses fear? Why is it that Christians oftentimes feel the need to say things like…

"You have chosen to be blind to the TRUTH!"

"You have obviously been deceived by the devil."

Or these…

"It's too bad that you're going to Hell."

"Hope you enjoy your special place in HELL."

"Hope you have an asbestos suit, cause you're going to HELL."

Hey, lay off with the threats already. Your stupid little beliefs that turn God into a monster are a mockery of whoever God is. I've been there. Threats are not the way to go with people.

Oh yes, I've heard your tricks before. You claim that you're our friends, trying to save us. I've heard your victims say that "if a friend were driving to a foreign country, wouldn't you want to give him a map?" Save it. I've heard it all before. You manifest yourself in many ways, some nice looking, some evil looking.

Take chick publications. A little comic book company that happens to make little comics that spell out how you're a doomed sinner who's going to hell unless you accept the lord Jesus into your heart. Let me tell you something you horrible thing: Chick publications is evil. Their little comic books are evil. Within these pages fear drips and oozes on every page, dripping down onto you. And when these drops of fear meet with bare skin, they dig down. They burrow. They head deep and stay deep, eagerly planting themselves with no intention of moving.

Some see these comics of people being judged by a faceless God to be amusing and funny. Some see them as hysterical even.

How many of these people are ex-christians? I'm one, and I don’t see them to be funny at all. When I even get a tiny glimpse of them, the fear that long ago buried itself within me springs forth and goes into action. No matter how my rational mind works, no matter how much I know, Christianity and its fear appeal to the emotions of a person. It appeals to fear, to uncertainty, to doubt.

No matter how strong I may be, no matter how much I know, the emotions of this cancer can easily overwhelm me.

"…It's too bad that you're going to Hell…"

No matter how hard I try, no matter how often my friends encourage me, no matter what happens…

I…

just…

can't…

do it…

I can't beat it. This cancer within me is strong and bides it's time. It often vanishes, up to months at a time. Yet at the slightest opportunity it springs forth and leaps with joy at the opportunity to seize me within its talons.

I just can't get rid of it.

I can't.

The scars are too deep. The cancer is buried too deep. I just can't get rid of it.

I can't, can't you see?

No matter how hard I try, no matter how much I learn or know, no matter what I do, this fear, this horrible cancer remains inside me. It may be cut and it may be gashed, and it may even be grievously injured, but a part of it always survives. A part of it always retreats to regroup and prepare to come forth again.

"…Hope you enjoy your special place in HELL…"

God how I hate it. God how I hate this horrible cancer that has been unleashed upon this earth. The fear of hell has no doubt been a powerful motivator for people for centuries. I'm just another one of its victims. Just one out of millions through the years.

The others, they don't really understand. They can say that I'm being too serious, they can say that I refuse to let go, they can say not to look at the stuff, they can say whatever they want to say. But they just don't understand it.

This is cancer. It takes its roots early and digs deep. To my young mind, it found a fertile ground with rich soil. To someone who was worried and scared, evil and harmful doctrines found a home.

It became a part of me. For four long years. And I didn't even realize what was going on.

IT threatened me. IT continues to threaten me today. And I am fucking sick of IT. I am so fucking tired of IT.

I try to get away from IT.

I try. But then a book comes along. And my near fatal flaw of curiosity gets the better of me and I start reading. It only takes a paragraph to trigger it. Sometimes, just a sentence. No matter. The damage is done.

Worry begins to creep into my mind once more. I might be going to hell because I haven't accepted Jesus. God might judge me one day and throw me into hell because I wasn't a Christian. I might burn forever in a lake of fire…

A year ago, when I was fresh out of my old faith, such things would have me worried, would have me begging God to help me.

But now, it's different. When the fear comes, so does something else. Rage. Anger. Hatred.

I hate to see IT manifest itself in so many ways. The arrogance, the pride, the self-inflated egos of those who say "I'm saved and you're not." I hate to see IT spreading. Whenever I see Billy Graham, I cringe. I see an angry man preaching a fear based message to people who need help. In his messages I find threats and absolutes. I am so fucking sick of seeing "The bible says…"

Mr. Graham is an agent of IT. I wonder if he knows that?

Whenever I see someone saying, "The bible says that…" I clench my fingers and squeeze hard. The bible is an agent of IT. It contains hate, fear, threats and warnings. Even though there are messages of hope and love and all that is actually good in this world, the threats and warnings are just as numerous.

For christ's sake, can't I just go through my life trying to be nice to other people? Can't I just go through life without being warned and threatened that I'm going to hell because I'm not a Christian?

I want to stop IT. I want to see IT lying on the ground, bleeding and dying a painful death for all the misery it has caused. IT deserves nothing less. If there is a hell, then IT should be the only permanent resident. Fear has no place in heaven.

"…Hope you have an asbestos suit, cause you're going to HELL…"

SHUT UP! FOR GOD'S SAKE, SHUT UP!

I grab IT by the neck and I squeeze. I squeeze hard. IT gasps and grabs at IT's throat, IT's copy of the bible falling into the mud.

I squeeze, pushing IT towards the mud.

"DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA WHAT YOU'VE DONE?!" I roar. "DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA HOW MUCH I HATE YOU?!"

IT changes form. IT's face shifts rapidly. A fundamentalist, hell fire and brimstone preacher, who's kind rants and raves about the torments of hell upon the unbelievers.

I squeeze harder.

IT's face shifts again. It becomes one of my friends, who is a Christian. Then it shifts into his mother. She struggles against my grasp, wheezing for air. Yet I do not let up. She was under the control of IT. She told me, mockingly, that because I was damned to hell anyway for not accepting Jesus, I could go ahead and save all the babies I wanted from death (she believed that God chooses when babies die and we have no right to save them).

Her face is turning purple. She mocked me. She told me how I was damned, and how she was saved and looking forward to death so she could be with God.

Do you know how you made me feel with your pompous ass egotistical statements? Do you know how miserable and depressed you made me feel?

Before I can finish, IT shifts again. It becomes one of the scouts from my Boy Scout troop, a young man who I'm good friends with. He once told me, sadly, that our deeds mean nothing to God because no imperfections can be allowed in heaven, and because we make mistakes and are not perfect, we cannot enter heaven without accepting Jesus.

And then IT shifts again…to an assistant scoutmaster from my troop. I rode with him once to camp. Little did I know that he was an evangelical Christian. The talk we had drained me so quickly of enthusiasm and happiness that it was as if he was an emotional vampire.

I glare into his eyes and ram him into the ground. "Do you know how depressed and upset you made me?" I hiss into his face. "Do you know how you shattered everything I believed in?! DO YOU?!?!?!" He tries to answer, but my grip is now like a vice. Slow, uncompromising and absolute.

He had countered everything I said with a quote from the bible. He dashed off all the historical evidence that was in favor of Christianity. He poked fun at my belief that Love is the way, the truth, and the life, saying that he could easily say that baseball is the way, the truth and the life, but that doesn't make it true.
I commented that according to his beliefs, I was damned. He had paused for a moment, then said yes, I was.

God, how can people believe this?

Before I can finish the squeeze, IT's form shifts again. This time, it's Billy Graham.

"Mr. Graham." I hiss. "I've been wanting to do this for a very long time." I pick him off the ground and hurl him into a wall. His bible falls from his shirt pocket. I grab it and rip it to shreds. "Where's your precious bible quotes now Mr. Graham?!" I shout, grabbing him by the collar and slamming him back into the wall.

"Tell me Mr. Graham." I hiss to his face. "How do you feel telling well-meaning people that they are doomed to hellfire because they haven't accepted Jesus? How often do you stand up on that dinky little podium of yours and tell the audience that we're all sinners? How often do you tell people that they're damned, damnit?! You my friend, spread fear. You spread the caner. I hope you like that!"

Grabbing his throat, my fingers digging into his skin, I hurl him over my head and face first into a wall. He falls, neck broken. But it's not finished.

Above me, the cloudy sky pours rain as I walk over to Mr. Graham's lifeless corpse. Then IT changes again, this time to the authors of all the fear based bible books and material I've ever seen. IT stands up and looks at me, glaring.

"…It's too bad that you're going to Hell…"

I scream and jump on IT, sending us both into the mud. I grab IT and punch, claw and tear at the faces, the ones who told me that they were my friend, trying to save me. The ones who say that Jesus is the only savior, the ones who frightened me with their work.

I scream and tear at them all, ripping their faces to bloody shreds. All the anger, all the hatred has boiled to the surface, and there is no stopping it. All the mental anguish and all the fear will be dealt with.

With a final slash I send the broken, bashed in face of Greg Laurie sliding through the mud into a rock. I stand, and I stare at the ruined, bloody face of IT. And I turn, facing away. All the pain, all the hatred at these people who threaten me, even if they aren't aware of it. I hate them all. I hate them.

But IT is a cancer. And it does not die easily, for I hear it getting off the ground and coming up behind me.

With a yell I spin, grab IT and jump on top of IT, pinning it into the mud. I raise my fist, ready to bash IT's face in again…

…and I stare into the face of Jesus Christ.

I pause. My clenched fist, so eager to pulverize, hesitates. From the mud, Jesus looks up at me, his face unreadable. No anger, no hate, no love, nothing. He just looks at me, as if letting me know that I can bash his face in if I want.

I look at him.

"Why?" I ask, tears coming from my eyes. "Why?"

He looks at me.

"Do you have any idea, any idea at all, about all the pain your sayings would cause? Do you have any idea at all how much I hate what you say? Do you have any idea whatsoever how much I hate the religion that follows you? Do you have any idea how much I hate its doctrines, its exclusiveness, its fear?! Do you?! DO YOU?!"

He doesn't answer.

"WHY?!" I scream. "WHY, WHY, WHY?!?!?!" Over and over and over I keep screaming it, screaming at a man who supposedly said he was the son of God, at the man that millions adore and worship.

And yet…he does not answer me.

"I HATE YOU!" I scream. "I HATE YOU!"

And then IT changes one more time. The face and body of Jesus vanish, replaced with an unexpected form.

Mine.

I stare at myself, standing there. My own face is angry. My own face is full of rage. IT glares back at me with the same anger I have.

My God…why? I'm becoming just like IT.

Maybe it's not the people I hate. It’s the fear that they spread that I hate. It's the darkness that they spread that I despise, that I detest. It's the ideas that drive people apart, that cripple people's lives, that plunges them into the depths of despair and fear.

That's what I hate. I don't hate these people. I hate the darkness within them…and me.

For fear is like cancer. It takes hold and it doesn't let go.

***

Before I wrote this, I spent the better part of half an hour lying in my bed, trying to sleep but unable to. I lay there, my mind racing over those horrible little comics that I had stupidly read earlier. The horrible, evil messages of a judgmental God, of the infallibility of the bible and how Jesus is the only way…

God I hate those cartoons. I want to take them all and burn them. I want to destroy the company so that no one has to go through what I'm going through. These horrible little comics are evil. And the thought that these might find their way into the hands of kids…

One thought I've had is a horrible one. What if they are right? What if this Christian afterlife description turns out to be true? What if Mr. Graham, Mr. Laurie, the evangelical assistant scoutmaster, the mocking mother and all those others who give messages of fear go to heaven, and those non-christians like myself who try to be good go to hell?

Oh God I want to destroy those things. I hate them so fucking much.

I prayed to God while I was in bed. No, more like, pleaded and cried. I ranted at God how I hated Christianity, how I hate its doctrines, its exclusiveness, and how it uses fear. I ranted at God at how much I hated it, how I thought it was a cancer upon the earth that needed to be wiped out.

There's a stuffed alligator in my bed, along with a stuffed toy shark. I held them tightly and squeezed them. They didn't judge me. They didn't demand that I worship them. They simply went along with what happened. Granted, they are only stuffed fabric shaped and colored like animals, but it felt good squeezing them.

Sometimes, when things just get too overwhelming, it feels good to hug and squeeze things. Why can't it be that way all the time? Why can't we just stop with the fucking threats of hell and just hug each other? Why for God's sake do we threaten each other with hell?

I am a victim of emotional cancer. For all my knowing and wisdom, I suffer from a lack of confidence and an emotional weakness to fear. If I'm exposed to it, I break down and fall apart.

This cancer is a leftover of my experience with threats of hell. Like all diseases, it takes time to cure it. I may never cure it. It may be with me for the rest of my life. Or it could go away within a few years, never to return.

…

…

I've never talked about myself this much before, about what I feel about fear. I've never talked about how I sometimes want to strangle the people who make me afraid, who scare me. I've never talked about how much I hate them at times, and how much I hate what I'm carrying with me.

Who are you? I don't know. You, as an observer, may say "get over it" or "Why don't you just walk away". You may mean well, but you just don't know. This cancer rooted itself deeply within me six years ago. It was only in the last two that I was aware it existed. Six years to take root and hang on tight. Dislodging such a thing takes time.

Thank you. Thank you, whoever you are. Writing this over the past two hours has been an incredibly therapeutic experience. I feel…drained, but in a good, healing way. I've never written such violent material before with regards to religion…yet it felt good. It's as if these horrible thoughts and things I've kept stored away for a long time have finally come out and left me.

Thank you for reading. I don't care if you're a Christian or an atheist, Buddhist or agnostic. Just thank you for reading it, for listening. I may know you, or I may never meet you, but knowing that at least someone out there read this thing that I've typed out during a long, sleepless night somehow makes me feel better.

One day I hope I can walk around with no fear in regards to spirituality, to religion, to Christianity or to faith. It is my great hope that one day I will be able to look at fear based tracts, comics, or books, and make them quiver under my gaze. It's not easy, healing this pain and fear that has clung to me. Earlier I wrote that it was still with me. Now it's not. It's gone.

It may be regrouping, or it may be packing up and leaving. I don't know. I don't know what the future holds for me, for this cancer, for this horrible cycle that I've gone through over and over again (Curiosity, doubt, worry, fear, then terror, then anger and rage, then quiet, then all over again) is one that I feel lost in. It's been repeating itself for two years now, ever since I left Christianity.

Hopefully, one day it will stop and cease to be. And then the cancer will be no more.

I look forward to that day.

I highly suggest that any Christians who decide to visit this forum read his article....many Christians don't seem to realize how deeply threats of hell can affect some people.

Now they're gonna either ignore this or say, "The truth hurts, and this is the ultimate truth so it ultimately hurts!"

as a person that loves and chooses to follow god i am apauled by this. i think its stupid and not tactful when christians say that. however that is what i belive. i still dont go around saying it to non-christians. just thought youd want a view of a christian.

double post sorry.

thats, wow, im speechless, thats an amazing look into the mind of an atheist. i cant belive it, i wanted to stop reading but i coudnt. thats so......wow.

It's actually more of a look into the mind of a person who is a fairly recent deconvert from Christianity.  I can't really speak for all other atheists, but it does seem that the average atheist has no fear of hell since to us it is an imaginary concept.

i understand that, i meant a look into the mind of someone that doesnt belive in god at all. us=same page.

Quote from: "bmxrider724"i understand that, i meant a look into the mind of someone that doesnt belive in god at all. us=same page.

Why should someone have to believe in a god? That makes just as much sense as believing in santa claus, unicorns or fairies. When reading the article I felt very sad that someone had to suffer so long from the evil effects of religious superstition. Luckily I never had to go to that process myself, mainly because I grew up in a secular environment without religious fruitcakes.

Eh, religion is what you make of it. If you make it your whole life, then you become a shell of a person bent on some investment that may or may not cash in. If you realize you don't believe in it and you want to force others not to, then you are on the other side of the spectrum. I've seen militant atheists who just goose-step as badly as theists. Can't people just smoke pot, drink beer, shoot at minorities, and wear penny-loafers like the good old days?

i used to have trouble sleeping at night too for the fear. because people said to me: x is wrong. if you do it, you will go to hell. they never told me why it was wrong.

Quote from: "bmxrider724"as a person that loves and chooses to follow god i am apauled by this. i think its stupid and not tactful when christians say that. however that is what i belive. i still dont go around saying it to non-christians. just thought youd want a view of a christian.

Oh man so you're christian?  What are you following me around? Christ I went to catholic schools for 12 years and that wasn't enough?

I'm kidding, there' room enough for all of us.  I heard ya brother and you're alright.   I just had to bust your chops a little.  Glad to see there's a christian brother who see that not all christians got it all right.

I found that article to be an unfortunate victim of tl;dr

That is horrible.  Why do so many Christians insist on using fear as a tool for conversion?  They so badly want to be the ones to say "I did it! I changed him!"  As a Christian, I understand that God is much more creative than I am and that it is his works through me that are important, not my own.  I don't believe that it was God's work through "His people" that brought this horrible fear.  Unfortunately there are self righteous, prideful Christians who seek to personal gain (what ever that may be).  

For the record, i think we should all hug.  Love is the greatest give God has given us.  I think we Christians should start using it more often and give God a little more credit.

Wow... I ALMOST have no words after reading that.

I'd agree that it's not the mind of your average atheist but I do remember going through that myself.  And I agree... the fear spread by religion IS like a cancer.  Those of us who are former believers (or former TRYING to believe-ers) were probably brainwashed at an early age that the bible is true, god is real and that hell is real.

Luckily, at the age of 44 and after MANY years of reading and re-reading the bible and many other historical and mythological texts, I can say with certainty that there is no god or hell or heaven.  Thus, I no longer entertain IT like this young man does/did.  It's a fallacy spread by the religious leaders to ensure that their flocks stay put and give them money and was originally put in place by rulers to control their populace.

I feel very sorry for religious folks who are so brainwashed with this fear... they don't even realize it's fear that keeps them believing.

Yes, the non-believing world isn't as rosy as their believing world... but I'll take the facts over their "truth" any day and 10 times on Sunday.

I never went through the fear of hell after my loss of faith. Hell and Satan didn't make any more sense to me than the "God" I was taught to believe in.

For me it was the age of 20 while in college where faith evaporated after reading Isaac Asimov's guide to the bible and finding that my best friends and the nicest people I met were non-practicing jews & atheists (and a buddhist). Prior to that, I was taught everyone other than Christians was going to hell, it didn't make sense so I just stopped believing it.

Quoteas badly as theists. Can't people just smoke pot, drink beer, shoot at minorities, and wear penny-loafers like the good old days?

sorry, got to call ya on this.  This stuff isn't funny to many of us.  Or maybe on this forum, it IS only me that doesn't care for minority bashing 'jokes', i've seen no one else call anyone on this stuff. Please be respectful of all peoples.  PLease?  If you can't be respectful of all peoples, at least have a better reason than skin color to withhold respect.

Quotesorry, got to call ya on this. This stuff isn't funny to many of us. Or maybe on this forum, it IS only me that doesn't care for minority bashing 'jokes', i've seen no one else call anyone on this stuff. Please be respectful of all peoples. PLease? If you can't be respectful of all peoples, at least have a better reason than skin color to withhold respect.

I don't know if that joke is actually minority bashing tigerlily. I think it was meant ironically, ie. it seems to be aimed at those who do actually target minorities. But I might be interpreting it wrong.

Quote.... Can't people just smoke pot, drink beer, shoot at minorities, and wear penny-loafers like the good old days?

That's a quote from Big Mac, who doesn't come around much any more.  

He is often sarcastic and rude, and seems to be an acquired taste.  I liked him well enough, though.

I'm a recent deconvert of Christianity, and although I've always been what I considered rational minded, it wasn't until about 6 months ago that I escaped the trap of religious belief. Although it's not just the fear of hell that causes one to believe, young children who don't have the capacity to reason about it for themselves do get scared and start forcing themselves into the "faith" mindset. Once they have faith, it's really hard to break that mindset with any rational thought, because the looming threat of hell has been planted, and tends to supersede normal reason on an emotional level. I still see it in myself; On rare occasions the thought of hell (the firey burny suffering images from my childhood) pop into my mind, and I slightly entertain the believers mindset, wondering if maybe, just maybe, Satan is behind it all, and has somehow hijacked my thoughts, and contrived this whole trap of "rational, reasonable, free-thinking". That in itself is dangerous because it specifically turns my mind off from reason for a minute or two. But then I remind myself why I'm in this position in the first place ... because Satan is an irrational belief, hell is imaginary, God doesn't exist ... and I quickly come to my senses again. I hope I never get to the point that the writer of that article has reached. Obviously the idea of hell in his mind still holds a recent and active slice of his memory, as well as other religious trappings, and this illustrates perfectly how the religious mindset is like a cancer.

Pure aspiration to the Sublime is one thing - rarely seen. To be driven to the Sublime (the intellectual) by Terror (the primordial) is a contradiction, and overwhelmingly common.

Every living organism has functional fear - an apparent "desire" to maintain homeostasis, a place for the chemistry of life to reliably transpire. We cannot eliminate it - but we may understand it, and put it in its PROPER place.

Not every living organism has Intellect. We are unique, we may conquer all - including the Self, largely an evolutionary artifact directed at individual self-preservation - which often conflicts with the interests of the Group. But do not destroy it - you need it - put it in its PROPER place.

For some reason - probably repeated emotional payoff - I have experimented with fear since childhood - sought it, and understood it better. I learned to "fight as if already dead", and thus, preserved myself. Immunity is acquired by repeated exposure to the pathogen.

Some religions approach the question of fear by offering its complete elimination - I think this a mistake. It is appropriate to fear starvation, thus we labor. It is appropriate to fear loss of a loved one, but it is quite inevitable (unless you love no one.) It is appropriate to fear death, when your death is viewed as things undone.

So when Krisnamurti says that I must systematically destroy all my desire, I must ask why I should desire to do so. If I leave this desire as the last to be destroyed, and I am successful - surely, I will just need to start over. Perhaps this desire is the one best first destroyed.

But to believe in a literal Hell is to pack all the Reptile in you into one place, and give it reign over your every thought and action. To rely on a system of extreme reward and punishment to guide one's life is repulsive to me, I MUST rebel, it is my nature; Leadership by Example, however, works on me every single time. I too desire to serve - those that deserve it. One Wonders Why I should be "made" thus.

Oblivion is a good thing. I seek 8 hrs. of it daily. It is most satisfying after a hard day's work, a job well done. I view death similarly - and I am Free.

But remember - Freethinking DOES kill people; they become designated targets.   :borg:

Quote from: "JoelWildtree"I'm a recent deconvert of Christianity, and although I've always been what I considered rational minded, it wasn't until about 6 months ago that I escaped the trap of religious belief. Although it's not just the fear of hell that causes one to believe, young children who don't have the capacity to reason about it for themselves do get scared and start forcing themselves into the "faith" mindset. Once they have faith, it's really hard to break that mindset with any rational thought, because the looming threat of hell has been planted, and tends to supersede normal reason on an emotional level. I still see it in myself; On rare occasions the thought of hell (the firey burny suffering images from my childhood) pop into my mind, and I slightly entertain the believers mindset, wondering if maybe, just maybe, Satan is behind it all, and has somehow hijacked my thoughts, and contrived this whole trap of "rational, reasonable, free-thinking". That in itself is dangerous because it specifically turns my mind off from reason for a minute or two. But then I remind myself why I'm in this position in the first place ... because Satan is an irrational belief, hell is imaginary, God doesn't exist ... and I quickly come to my senses again. I hope I never get to the point that the writer of that article has reached. Obviously the idea of hell in his mind still holds a recent and active slice of his memory, as well as other religious trappings, and this illustrates perfectly how the religious mindset is like a cancer.

I can totally relate.  Every now and again, that spark of anxiety pops up.  "What if I'm wrong and it's really Satan who has led me astray..."  Same self-talk to return to reason and rationality.

The mental dysplasia of religion spreads in the mind and becomes a malignant force, sucking the energy and joy of life away.  True and profound.

QuoteOn rare occasions the thought of hell (the firey burny suffering images from my childhood) pop into my mind, and I slightly entertain the believers mindset, wondering if maybe, just maybe, Satan is behind it all, and has somehow hijacked my thoughts, and contrived this whole trap of "rational, reasonable, free-thinking". That in itself is dangerous because it specifically turns my mind off from reason for a minute or two.

This goes away with time. I recommend reading "Age of Reason" by Thomas Paine. It really helped me let go of a lot that same anxiety. Plus it's a really fun read. Enjoy!

Hell is listening to someone talking how God is love and if you don't accept the divine protection rackett, to Hell with you1

After converting from Christianity to Atheism, I was proudly spouting "w00t, Hell doesn't exist, w0000t!" and I had no fear at all. I probably feared going to hell when I was religious a lot more than I do now [which I don't at all]

Hmm... Hell doesn't scare me. But HEAVEN? Jeez, I'd be bored out of my mind. Eternal peace and eternal happiness. No!!! Life is beautiful because of some of the aches and pains. When we grow accustomed to eternal peace it becomes eternal routine... like a dead end job. If I'd go to heaven, I'd actually jump out from the ka-billionth-floor and down to hell. And as soon as I hit the flames, I'm glad that I could feel pain once again and finally diminish into nothingness as the lava of satan burns me into nothingness... But that's more of a lampoon.

Do I fear what the afterlife holds? No. It's kind of inane to say what heaven and hell is like since there is nothing to support such a stupid claim. Like the claim that there is a teapot revolving around the sun...

I can actually relate to that. I was the member of a "christian" cult for a bit over 2 years. After we left we'd get phone calls from the members telling us we were evil and going to hell. I was young so I was very confused and ultimately angry. My mom tried bringing me to another church but I was so uncomfortable there I would shake. the thought of spending time in a building of worship (of any kind) makes me nervous to this day. I remember the fear and anger I felt. It is too bad some christians choose to behave that way-but I know not all do.

Wow.  What powerful writing.  I find it shameful that Christianity uses such deep seated fear to lure and keep followers.  Once that kind of fear gets deep into your psyche, it must be nearly impossible to erase.   I wonder if that is the reason Christianity created hell in the first place.

As a Unitarian I cannot imagine God allowing any sort of hell to exist.  But that may simply be because I was never indoctrinated with that type of fear.

After reading that, I feel truly appreciative that I have never drank the kool-aid.  I will never have to battle with the inner conflicts the author has.  My heart goes out.

In my experience, religion is all about CONTROL.  And when something or someone threatens that control, the claws and fangs emerge in desperate attempts to keep their world perfectly circular and smooth - these people will run themselves and others ragged, to the edge of sanity, in order to keep this control alive.

I remember in high school when I was christian and a youth group leader, I was riding the school bus to school, half awake, half asleep and while thinking about heaven, hell, etc - all I could see in my peers on the bus were skulls where their faces should be. I came to an understanding in my faith that each of these people were not leading christian lives and what I was seeing is a huge group of children going to hell when they died. I felt this terrible weight over me. It was that I had to do something to stop all these people from going to hell. It became a very serious fear and I can relate to this story in that way.

i feel sad for him for being tortured like that. But he sounds more agnostc than atheist cause well.. why would an atheist be afraid of something he knows that doesnt exist.
It was the same with me. I was afraid that in case I was wrong I would go to hell but now I dont anymore.

It's not agnosticism, more like brainwashing. I know that there is no god, no satan, no heaven nor hell, but it is burned into my head that anything christian is good, and anything else is bad, and that anything good is christian, and anything bad is not. It's fear of myself over fear of hell, of my own brain having preconceived ideas about what I think, that I have no control over, and I had no choice in. If someone else can control what I think, how can I help myself? Everyone in school tells me that I am evil, they look at me like I'm stupid, and damned. They pity me for something they have deluded themselves into thinking is going to happen to me, and try to change me because the feel sorry for me, and they think that it will help them get into heaven. Telling them to leave me alone won't do anything, because they think that it is their duty to help me, and they might go to hell if they don't. All of this only because they were born to parents who wanted to bring them up the "Christian" way, the "good", "loving" way, and told them that anyone who didn't believe like they did were evil, terrible, and were going to hell. There is no hell. But that doesn't stop me thinking automatically that atheism is heinous, even though I have considered myself an atheist ever since I was seven. But I can't change the fear that was instilled into me when I was unable to think for myself, the fear that followed me everywhere I went from the time I was born into a catholic family, from the time that I was brainwashed in a private christian pre-school, brought to church every Sunday, taught that anyone who didn't was evil and going to hell. Then I asked my mom if Santa was real. She said no. "Is the easter bunny real?" "No." "Is God real?" "Of course!" She didn't understand how god could be included with the imaginary idols of childhood. For her, the fear was always real. And she is afraid that I will go to hell. She continues to try to teach me the "good" way, and is very upset when I don't take to it. She'll cry real tears because she thinks I'm going to go to an imaginary hell, and I can't do anything to stop her, because I know that it is not real. And because my first instinct is to be scared for myself too. And I have no control over it. My own brain. The very thing that made it clear to me that religion was just a nice idea torments me for believing that there is no heaven nor hell. And I can't stop it.

Sorry if I'm ranting, it's just that it's a very scary ordeal for me, and I have to go through it every day.

QuoteI feel very sorry for religious folks who are so brainwashed with this fear... they don't even realize it's fear that keeps them believing.

Yes, the non-believing world isn't as rosy as their believing world... but I'll take the facts over their "truth" any day and 10 times on Sunday.

As a very religious person, I'd like to point out that I do not live in fear. I do not fear going to hell, nor do I condemn anyone else to that. My believing world is not 'rosy' at all. It has as much pain and as much hope in it as does the non-believing world. Have I gone through tragic, painful, depressing, and angering experiences? Too many times to count.

Here is a fact that I'm sure everyone can agree on: We have absolute control over our own thoughts, beliefs, and actions. By this definition, we have absolutely NO control over the thoughts, beliefs, and actions of others. We can influence them, and try to persuade someone of something, or brainwash them (yes I agree that many people are brainwashed, including many religious); BUT if someone has decided to firmly believe something (whether it is the existence of God or the NONexistence of God), then NOTHING anyone says will EVER convince them otherwise.

Most of my friends (in real life) are atheists. Does it make me like or trust them any more or less than those who 'share' my 'faith'? Nope. I seek not to judge or condemn anyone, and least of all to make anyone fearful. There are those who do live only to instill fear in others, but for me, it's inconsistent with my personal philosophies. For now, I'm content with my life and the path I have chosen. I am not fearful. I am not perfect. Sometimes I find myself judging people, but I try my hardest not to. I try my best to love everyone around me in equal amounts without inhibition or condition. I always prepare for the worst in people, events, and the future in general; but I hope for the best at all times. Sometimes I'm disappointed--okay, that's an understatement. I'm disappointed a lot, and most of the time, in myself.

But hope, in my humble opinion, is a necessity--whether you believe in a god or not. Throughout the ages, hope has kept humanity going strong--it has fostered knowledge and the pursuit of more knowledge and scientific discovery, it has opened our minds to understanding, our hearts to love kindness and mercy, and our souls to search for spiritual meaning, whether we find it or not. Even in our darkest times, when we killed many of our own, often in the name of God, citing a holy cause for war; even when we felt we had nowhere left to go, hope guided us through.

May I leave you with this thought only: that we are all inherently flawed, and especially many of our religious. I just hope I can make a positive difference in one person's life during my journey, and then will I be satisfied.

Holy avatar, Batman!

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages23.fotki.com%2Fv858%2Fphotos%2F8%2F892548%2F6116196%2F319112947861uo-vi.gif&hash=530e798f258d1794d1773cd2b83efbb91141e632)

Quote from: "Ylanne Sorrows"But hope, in my humble opinion, is a necessity--whether you believe in a god or not.

Don't forget... there's a reason hope was in Pandora's box: it's dangerous.

QuoteI know that there is no god, no satan, no heaven nor hell, but it is burned into my head that anything christian is good, and anything else is bad, and that anything good is christian, and anything bad is not.

As a Christian, I do not share the belief that anything Christian is good, and anything not is bad. I just don't. Let me copy and paste a message I left in another forum (addressing Christians of various degrees of piety, judgmentality, and 'brainwashing'; as well as a few non-Christians):

QuoteOften, detractors of Christianity and other organized religions cite the arrogance of a follower claiming that their faith, and that faith alone, is "the one true faith", and that those who are not adherents are destined to damnation in hell.

And it is true, that the vast majority of Christians, Jews, and Muslims will say that their religion is the only right one. And each is able to cite multiple reasons why this is so; at the same time, detractors of faith are able to cite multiple reasons why this cannot be, as well as come up with long lists of 'contradictions' in the holy books of these faiths.

I am a Christian in the true sense of the word, which derives from the Greek christos for Hebrew messiakh, meaning 'an annointed messenger of God'. Christian, therefore, means 'a follower of Christ'. By saying this, I do not mean to say that others who call themselves "Christian" are not, or are not 'true Christians'. I simply mean to say that by calling myself a Christian, I am doing so based on the meaning of the word as defined by its etymology.

I am a fundamentalist. Now, before you begin to jump to conclusions, make assumptions, or otherwise make unfair or media-based associations, please hear me out. What I mean by this, calling myself a fundamentalist, is that I seek out the fundamentals, or foundations, or inherent and basic teachings of my faith, which, as I stated earlier, is Christianity.

Before I continue, let me make absolutely clear that I do not consider myself somehow privileged, above others, or better than others. I do not think that I am superior in any way, or that I am somehow 'special'. I only say this because in the past, I have been accused in RL of many of these things, mostly because of my beliefs.

Continuing with the prior paragraph... Throughout history, new faiths, or religions, or churches, have been established, including in recent years (although such groups established today are more often than not labeled 'cults'). Many such faiths were founded by a man (or woman) who claimed to be a messenger or prophet of a God, or otherwise enlightened. And much of what we consider to be part of a religion, or criterion for being an adherent to a religion, is ceremony and ritual, habit and dress code, all of which were not necessarily in the original 'prophet's' teachings, but which culture and history wrote into the religion.

Did you know that the religion of Islam teaches that God sent a messenger or prophet to virtually every people group on the face of Earth? They were sent to teach the same Message to different peoples in different ways. I believe this is true, and that the Message has become somewhat distorted, unclear in the past few centuries. That this is the reason for the many world religions today (excluding newer faith groups).

I seek to find the core truths and values in what we in America generalize as the "Christian religion", which, by the way, is split into over 36,000 sects or denominations (which again are subject to what exactly the definition of what constitutes a Christian denomination). These truths can be found in the Bible (or so I believe) and in the teachings of the Christ, Yahshua (which is Jesus' actual name in Hebrew, usually written Joshua in English).

Likewise, in accordance with my belief that the Message of God exists in the fundamentals of all major or previously established religion, I have sought out these truths and continue to study comparative religion and the holy books of 'other religions'. For instance, to be a Christian is to be a follower of Christ, which means to follow His teachings and integrate them into our way of life: peacemaking, mercy, compassion, and love for others, especially the Lost. To be a Muslim, as the Arabic word means, is to be a Submitter: to submit to the Will of God and defer to Him in all matters, as we are His creation and His servants.

However, over time, we, humanity, have changed or somehow altered the Message God sent us. We added cultural and historical subjectivity and practices to our 'faiths' and sometimes lost the way. Even today I believe we can and often do misinterpret the Message--which is so simple! Islamic terrorists who claim to be true Muslims are not followers of their faith--which teaches submission to God's will--and how can God will millions of people to die in His name, when in reality, He would have us all in Heaven with Him?

I believe the Bible's Message is true and infallible. But I also believe that we, you and I and our neighbor, are perfectly capable of misinterpreting that Message.

My point is, I don't believe everything "Christian" is necessarily good---take the Crusades for example. Well, yes, I am a pacifist, but that's besides the point. Killing people in the name of God is no different than killing people because you like to. And likewise, that anything non-Christian is bad, I do not believe either as evidenced by my statements above. If you want to follow the rest of that post, it's available at the following link, but like this forum, you need to register. (It was actually a reply to my topic above that linked to this page). http://www.getphpbb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... rum=theway (http://www.getphpbb.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=457&highlight=&mforum=theway) is the link. If you can't get there from the link, go tp http://freewebs.com/swctheway (http://freewebs.com/swctheway) and scroll down and click the link that says "Follow the Way" which goes to the forum--which you have to register, I guess.

Anyhoo....... In general, I try not to "preach" what I believe, or to shove my beliefs at ANYONE, but like I said earlier, the above text was posted in a forum consisting mainly of Christians, just like this forum consists mainly of Atheists, both labels being self-identified of course. So a lot of it assumes certain beliefs, because of the audience to whom it was directed.

If anyone is interested in just sharing their thoughts with me, I'm very open-minded and will NEVER, EVER assume you are wrong or evil or bad or [insert synonym here] or EVER EVER try to preach to you in ANY way. I love to hear your thoughts and have often been told by RL friends that I would make a great therapist or counselor.

I also enjoy mutually respectful debate on virtually any topic. I'm willing to admit I might be wrong about pretty much everything I believe, and you might be surprised at some of my arguments for my beliefs (related to controvesial issues such as abortion, gun control, etc.). If you're ever interested in dropping me a line about anything, I check my email every day. natalieschultz@mail.com .

I hope it's comforting to know not every "Christian" (using that term VERY loosely) out there is highly judgmental, preachy, and thinking in black and white. I know there's lots of them and know many personally. But like I said in the topic above this one ^^ all the way up, all I want to leave you with is a Message of Hope--one that can be given and received with or without belief in God...

Quotethere's a reason hope was in Pandora's box: it's dangerous.

Isn't anything? Whether used for good or ill (generally with brainwashing), anything and everything can be dangerous. Many of my beliefs are dangerous in such a way that many "Christians" tell me I should "go to hell". So do many non-Christians, except for the "hell" part, of course. But it doesn't stop me from believing them. Standing up for your rights, for the rights of those oppressed, is it not dangerous? But it is right. The narrow path is full of pebbles to stumble over, thorns to stab yourself on, and brambles to confuse you--it is a dangerous path to walk. And I am not, by the way, referring to Christianity.

Cool posts Ylanne! Most Christians that I know are very decent people. The only difference is that they believe in a supernatural being and I don't. I don't  however respect organized religion, that poses morals on us that either cannot be found in the Bible, are harmful, plain stupid or are hopelessly outdated; and act accordingly. My wife for example still believes in a god, but left the catholic church because the church made it clear that she and her girl's choir were not welcome to sing for the Pope while he was visiting Bavaria, because that old creep preferred boys. This is a rather harmless example or how religion disrespects women. History showed us far worse examples how of people can do extremely evil things in the name of their Gods. Now the catholic church is an old relic from the past that should have died centuries ago due to the evil deeds they'd done (crusades, witch and heretic burnings, inquisition, forbidding the use of condoms, etc.), but more modern Christian sects are even worse, especially those that are coming from the other side of the ocean. All you hear from them is hate this, hate that, burn those fags, kill those abortionists, give me all your money, thou shall no do this and thou shall not do that, repent, repent and repent. This is what I consider sick and extremely dangerous. People who manage to get rid of that cancer have therefore my full respect. I don't care whether people believe in a God, in Zeus or the Flying Spaghetti Monster as long as they don't  haress me with their believes, take my freedom away or think that they are better than anyone else because of their believes. I'm looking forward to the day that religion would start listen to their moderate followers, get rid of all that stupid and outdated dogma's, stop messing around with people's lives, respect the [non] believes of other people and finally preach a message of love instead of hate.

QuoteI don't care whether people believe in a God, in Zeus or the Flying Spaghetti Monster as long as they don't haress me with their believes, take my freedom away or think that they are better than anyone else because of their believes. I'm looking forward to the day that religion would start listen to their moderate followers, get rid of all that stupid and outdated dogma's, stop messing around with people's lives, respect the [non] believes of other people and finally preach a message of love instead of hate.

I am highly religious, highly intellectual, and I hate the word moderate. I am not to the far right or to the far left, so don't get me wrong here. But my religion is not merely what I believe, it is my way of life, and unlike many self-identified Christians, I'm pretty sure that I'm going through my life loving people and advocating for the helpless and oppressed. I hate no one. I respect everyone and everyone's beliefs, especially the beliefs of those who disgree with me, who, not surprisingly, includes people who attend the same church as me.

It is true that today you often hear from the religious to kill these people, especially those who disagree with them. But I sincerely hope I'm not like that, because I believe the practice of discriminiation or persecution for lack of religious beliefs or different ones is totally and completely wrong. Every group has its faults and false (or even harmful) beliefs. But to judge every member of a group is the same as having Christians pass judgment on every non-Christian, abortionist, gay, etc.

I hate being judged. What I hate even more is judging others. The practice is wrong. All the time, hearing Christians do it, I do this:  :brick:   It is a disgrace on humanity.

Welcome to the forum, Ylanne. Your posts are are refreshingly nice read.    I appreciate the outlook of respect you have for others, especially those who don't share the same beliefs.

Sat Sri Akal, Friend:

As a former atheist of more than 20 years, now very devout person (Sikh) http://www.sikhnet.com/pages/introduction-sikhism , I think what you need is to expand your perspective on spirituality. You see, you've lived your life within the confines one faith -- and a perversion of it , at that. Yes, many (not all!) manifestations of Christianity .. hey, over 20,000 sects.. are perversions. ANYTHING fear-based can not possibly be of God.

Just as we've reached a crisis point on our planet re: environmental, pollution, and energy needs, and the way out is NOT to become Luddites, but to embrace technology as the solution for getting us out of this mess... so too must your expand your understanding, conceptions of, and perspectives of religion and spirituality to set your mind free of the broken record that seems to be playing in your head and gnawing at your soul. The best way to both gain and understand spirituality is to both study comparative religion and to engage the spiritual community.. find your niche, awaken your spirit, fulfill your destiny. This is what I did.. now, I'm 100% stronger than I was as an atheist.. I have strength and purpose that I could never have imagined in my dark years 'in the wilderness'. I am literally fearless.  But I digress --

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."   <<or in your secular rationality, for my atheist friends ;-)

Yes, Hamlet was correct, and this goes to Christian, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist..  seek out the teachings of the sages, gurus, speak with those who are adherents of various faiths, study, go to YouTube if you're lazy and watch endless videos on spirituality and faith.. you WILL find a path that calls to you, and fills you with positive energy, love, strength, compassion... I've seen it a thousand times.

But -- time is short, and all of these exercises are useless unless you can decide on a course of action, and then follow through with conviction and determination. As Gandalf said to Frodo:

"All you have to do is to decide what to do with the time given to you.""

Yes, decide, then do. Don't wallow in indecisiveness  -- again, a great example and a great quote, this time from Master Yoda:

"Do or do not: There is no 'try'!

Yoda also had some wise words regarding your 'fear":

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.”

Oh, lest you think you can dismiss the wisdom contained in these latter quotes, where do you think Tolkien and Lucas got them.. timeless wisdom, uttered by a thousand gurus in a thousand places.

Fateh!

Quote from: "karakara"Yes, Hamlet was correct, and this goes to Christian, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist.. seek out the teachings of the sages, gurus, speak with those who are adherents of various faiths, study, go to YouTube if you're lazy and watch endless videos on spirituality and faith.. you WILL find a path that calls to you, and fills you with positive energy, love, strength, compassion... I've seen it a thousand times.

Karakara, you seem to be projecting your own experience onto those of us with no feeling of emptiness or desire to seek a "higher" path. I'm sorry that your experience as an atheist was not fulfilling, but it's by no means universal. For many of us, the path of nonspirituality IS the path that calls us and fills us with positive energy, strength, and compassion.

Thank you for sharing, but don't fool yourself into believing we need saved.

Friend,

Well.. this is the 'Religion' section, dealing with religious issues.. the nature of the problem of the poster was one of guilt and other issue born of a bad experience both within and external of his faith...

Before accusing me of 'projecting'.. implying some Freudian Defense Mechanism to my desire to help.., pls. consider that my motive is closer to that of a physician, assessing symptoms, diagnosing, and prescribing medicine.  Your 'medicine' seems to be ... no medicine.  You fail to acknowledge that the continuing turmoil in this person is manifestation of latent spiritual yearning not only unfulfilled, but poisoned and confused.

What I find absolutely amazing is this notion of yours that you see a 'path' in nonspirituality -- I didn't say 'religion', but who's the Luddite here? You, sir, are advocating self-imposed lobotomy on the spiritual aspect of not only your own life, which you are free to do, but to advise and speak for others, this is quite damaging. What you are advocating flies against all wisdom teachings of the entire history of human experience. The way to be happy and fulfilled is to -- embrace non-spirituality? You are either a teenager, or a fool. Harmless fool if you keep this to your self (you'll only be harming yourself) but dangerous fool if you influence others  to believe such nonsense.  Who do you think you are deluding with this assertion ?

QuoteFor many of us, the path of nonspirituality IS the path that calls us and fills us with positive energy, strength, and compassion.

You may say, who am I to judge, but who do I have to be? This is pure nonsense.  The human being needs balance in all aspects of life, and although I totally support rationality, science, facts, logic, etc., there is and has always existed a spiritual aspect of our nature. If you try to deny this, or worse, propogate the notion that you can build anything... one life, family, community, society.. purely on secular logic and pragmatism, then whatever you are attempting to build will fail without acknowledging and embracing the spiritual as well.

There is no 'nonspiritual path', just delusion and confusion. Many who read this will intuitively know that I am right.

My advice had nothing to do with 'saving souls', that's an Abrahamic concept which with, as a Sikh (we do not believe that Man is 'fallen' , just the opposite.. that we all possess a spark of Divinity inside us.. that God lives and breaths in each soul) . One of the problems that I continually run into with Atheists is that they are Atheist in mind and heart precisely because of their total rejection of the teachings, history, etc., of Abrahamic faiths...  back to my Hamlet quote: there is much, much more to spirituality and God than what you are presented with in the Abrahamic tradtions. Almost every argument I hear against religion is based on dissatisfaction with one or more of the Abrahamic faiths.. so pls. don't bring your theological baggage (i.e. accusing me of trying to 'save' someone), but try to see what I'm saying from a larger perspective.. yes, I know you can fire back that I should do the same, but I've been there, done that. I actually love Carl Sagan, Bertrand Russell, Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins.. Sagan more that the others, I admit, but I know the arguments. You (not simply you personally, 'curiosityandthecat') do not know mine because you have not had the experience of knowing God.. yet.

I'll finish with a short passage .. found on many atheist and humanist websites.. and a quote form a famous Atheist, it might give just a bit of credibility to my Sikh perspective:
http://www.humanists.net/alisina/sikhism.htm (http://www.humanists.net/alisina/sikhism.htm)

Quote Bertrand Russell

This is the man who destroyed Christianity (same applies to Islam and Judaism) and exposed its absurdities; but even this great man got stuck when it came to Sikhism! In fact he gave up and said "that if some lucky men survive the onslaught of the third world war of atomic and hydrogen bombs, then the Sikh religion will be the only means of guiding them." Russell was asked that he was talking about the third world war, but isn't this religion capable of guiding mankind before the third world war? In reply, Russell said, "Yes, it has the capability, but the Sikhs have not brought out in the broad daylight, the splendid doctrines of this religion which has come into existence for the benefit of the entire mankind. This is their greatest sin and the Sikhs cannot be freed of it.

Wow, way to lambaste Curiosityandthecat for doing exactly the same thing you just did.  

Brilliant, BRILLIANT I tell ya'!

The problem with spirituality is that its just as meaningless to Curio as non-spirituality is to you.

Spirituality is not something that can be seen or felt or otherwise communicated directly to another.  Expecting another to believe in spirituality as a "path" first requires that they already are open to the idea (unless they have already tried and decided against it.)  I think the point of Curio's support of a "non-spiritual path" can be summed up in a colorful example I just thought of right this second.

Think of spirituality as a pair of underwear, it is something that you would wear every day, as close to you as it can possibly be.  This is something that has become such a part of your life that you don't even consider starting your day without wearing your underwear.  The underwear fit so well that you never question the need or desire to keep wearing your underwear either.

Now for you, Karakara, the underwear is a perfect fit. Your underwear is the right size, color, fabric, it doesn't bunch or ride or cause any chaffing so it would follow that you'd be hard pressed to find a reason to not wear your underwear.

There are those, however, who find that the underwear is not the right size.  The underwear is uncomfortable, its painful, and it rubs the skin raw.  These people find themselves questioning the underwear.  Some will go out and find different kinds of underwear, different sizes, cuts, styles, fabrics and eventually find one that is a perfect fit.  It will fit so well that it not longer causes pain or discomfort or a need to question the wearing of the underwear.

Still there are others that have tried all the different kinds of underwear that they could find and still cannot find the perfect one.  This leads to at least three choices by my estimation:

1. Keep trying different types of underwear in the hopes that one day you will find that perfect fit.

2. Give up looking and just make do with the underwear that is the least painful, uncomfortable, least likely to rub your skin raw of all that have been tried.

3. Deciding that the wearing of underwear is just something that isn't necessary, stop worrying about trying to find the perfect underwear, and live life as best  as possible.

So if trying to follow a spiritual path is causing problems that cannot be resolved, maybe the spiritual path is not a path that one needs to walk.

Quote from: "Jolly Sapper"Wow, way to lambaste Curiosityandthecat for doing exactly the same thing you just did.  

Hear hear!   :hail:

Quote from: "rlrose328"JOlly, you are one saavy creature... this is brilliant!  May I blog it??   :blush:

First, I do recall that the purpose of this thread is to address the post by an  individual who goes by the handle of 'laetusheos' of an article by an obviously distressed individual who has had a world of guilt and fear programmed into him by so called 'Christians'..  I offered the advice that I would give this individual..  

I know that the purpose of the posting was to stimulate discussion, but for the person who cathartically wrote the letter, the pain was personal and real.  Again, I didn't come to this forum to argue with Atheists, having formerly been one myself for many years.. as I have stated. 5 years ago, I was you.. literally, baiting and sparring with 'religious' people online.. and patting myself on the back when I thought I had bested one, and basking in the glow of my admiring fellow Atheists/Agnostics/Secularists.. after all, it was we 'rational' people against those brainwashed zealots.. I could tear down any argument with logic and reason, and send the 'spiritual' people packing.. unable to challenge me on my field of battle and on my terms.  I could spin clever analogies on the fly , as you do Jolly Sapper... but to what end?  I do give you credit in that you recognize that some people just talk past each other.. true.  So pat yourself on the back, clever wordsmith, you have at least one groupie in  rlrose323 ... congratuations.

I see I'm wasting my time and breath in this forum.. I don't know what I was thinking, I know what the game is here. I'll sign off and close my account, and leave you with a victory, if you can call it that.  You and I would talk past each other as well, because again, 5 years ago I was you.. I know you well.

I hope Ian D. finds some answers and some peace.

KaraKara

Wow... that was unexpected.

Regarding this post... http://happyatheistforum.com/posting.php?mode=reply&f=2&t=235#pr24238

My complaint is that you stopped talking about the person referenced in the original post.  You were talking directly to Curio, and your opinion is that anybody who isn't as satisfied with attempting to follow a spiritual path as you are is deficient as a being.  

My underwear post was an attempt to create a situation, lacking the weighted terms thrown around when talking about spirituality and religion, describing various ways that people respond to trying to "fit" or find a "fit" into something.

Some people have no problem finding something to fit into, others find that they already fit into something, others find that they don't really fit but make do (also known as a fake fit).  This leaves one last response from those who've decided that they cannot find anything that fits and won't settle for something that fits poorly, the response of just not trying to fit at all.  

I was trying to stress the point that if trying to do something is causing you pain and stress, there comes a time that you may find yourself contemplating removing the cause of the discomfort.  In this case, it would be to stop continuing attempts to fit because they aren't successful.  There shouldn't be condemnation to those who've tried to fit, found that they couldn't, and decided to stop trying to force themselves to fit.  

The emotion stress that IanD writes about is what happens when you keep trying to fit into something that you just can't fit into.  Now not only does IanD have to face the internal emotional stress from having spent time "forcing a fit," there is the emotional stress caused by those who would condemn him for having decided that he should stop trying to "force a fit" into something that wasn't working.  Karakara, some of the words in the post linked to above seem to have you in the siding with same camp as those who would condemn somebody because they don't want to have to lie to themselves just to fit.

This seems to go against the idea that we, as beings, should have some say in deciding what we believe and how we believe it.  Would it not be better to honestly believe something that you practice, or claim to believe?  Is it not a lie to say you believe in the tenets of a religion or belief system when you don't really believe?  

You've mentioned, repeatedly, that you were once an atheist.  Now you are a sikh.  There came a time when you realized that you needed to fit into something that your belief in atheism didn't give you.  You would have been lying to yourself if you continued to be an atheist, so you made a choice to give up something that didn't fit for something that does, right?  This was the right decision for you.  

I don't feel that making this decision for yourself means you are a lesser being.  You are not deficient, or lacking, or weak.  You just found that the path you were on wasn't working for you and decided to take another way.  I'd imagine that this situation is similar to what IanD was talking about in the original post.

Karakara, please don't leave angry. Atheists LOVE to discuss and debate, and your view is interesting and stimulating. I don't think anyone meant to antagonize you.

Friend,

Alas, I did not leave angry or antigonized.  And, I did not quit the forum. I guess I lied.. for all my piety, I'm only as human as anyone else on this forum. Also,
Jolly Sapper provides some decent entertainment value for free -- even Sikhs need a chuckle every now and then ;-)

I'll have more soon, I've been swamped at work.. yet another commonality I share with many of the contributors of this forum, no doubt.

Tks. for the invite back.

It is certainly the case that Christians, and the Catholic Church in particular, have taken fear as a way of recruiting and retaining their adherents. Islam, however, is not exempt from this and the fear of being killed for leaving the faith must mean there are a lot of atheist thinkers trapped in Islam. Like others, I find it quite extraordinary that modern day Christians work with fear whilst the Jesus they claim as their Lord never did this.perhaps it was the Spanish Inquisition that got it started as well as Indulgences.

That aside, I do hope de-converted can rid themselves of the fear put in them before.

Bloody hell. The guy must be in a really painful place right now. Don't know what to say. I myself hold an interesting view about the subject and death, which is most certainly brought about by what I call logical thinking. It's still weird though. Basically, death is... urm... not real for me. Don't get me wrong, I won't be here forever. or at least as close as you can get to "I". But whatever that I is, really will be around forever. I guess because my view of myself is that of interaction, and interection can't die. It disn't exist in the first place. It's just a term used for when two particles actually, well, interact.

Sooo...Hell? Kind of meaningless, I guess...

I am sorry I couldn't help the poor guy. I hope he get's better.  

To those who are religious, whatever you want to believe is your business. I just hate hearing Christians try to justify the whole thing. By their own logic, it would be perfectly acceptable to throw my (hypothetical) child into the oven simply for not believing me if I told him something that I can't actually prove. I question the type of mind who could see how that makes sense.

Quote from: "Miss Anthrope"To those who are religious, whatever you want to believe is your business. I just hate hearing Christians try to justify the whole thing. By their own logic, it would be perfectly acceptable to throw my (hypothetical) child into the oven simply for not believing me if I told him something that I can't actually prove. I question the type of mind who could see how that makes sense.

Of course, theists would claim that was old testament thinking...and all that nonsense about the new testament blah blah blah...zzzzzzzzz....oh sorry, almost dozed off. What really puzzles me, and I will use your example, is this. If you did in fact throw your child in the oven simply for not believing and then you asked for and received 'god's' forgiveness (since he forgives everyone for everything apparently), what would stop you from doing it again? Since, if you did it again, wouldn't you just have to ask for forgiveness again?

I know there is something in the bible that says something about asking for forgiveness knowing you may do it again, but it still doesn't make sense to me. Why, if there really were a god, would I want to live a moral life if I know that I could do anything wrong and just ask for forgiveness?  

Quote from: "oldschooldoc"

Quote from: "Miss Anthrope"To those who are religious, whatever you want to believe is your business. I just hate hearing Christians try to justify the whole thing. By their own logic, it would be perfectly acceptable to throw my (hypothetical) child into the oven simply for not believing me if I told him something that I can't actually prove. I question the type of mind who could see how that makes sense.

Of course, theists would claim that was old testament thinking...and all that nonsense about the new testament blah blah blah...zzzzzzzzz....oh sorry, almost dozed off. What really puzzles me, and I will use your example, is this. If you did in fact throw your child in the oven simply for not believing and then you asked for and received 'god's' forgiveness (since he forgives everyone for everything apparently), what would stop you from doing it again? Since, if you did it again, wouldn't you just have to ask for forgiveness again?

I know there is something in the bible that says something about asking for forgiveness knowing you may do it again, but it still doesn't make sense to me. Why, if there really were a god, would I want to live a moral life if I know that I could do anything wrong and just ask for forgiveness?  

You bring up a really good point, one which contradicts many theists' claims that you need God and religion to live a moral life. if a person beleives that God is the highest authority, and that that authority will simply forgive them if they ask for it, then Christianity could actually enable someone to life a completely immoral life and then essentially just say "Sorry" before they die.

Quote from: "Miss Anthrope"

Quote from: "oldschooldoc"

Quote from: "Miss Anthrope"To those who are religious, whatever you want to believe is your business. I just hate hearing Christians try to justify the whole thing. By their own logic, it would be perfectly acceptable to throw my (hypothetical) child into the oven simply for not believing me if I told him something that I can't actually prove. I question the type of mind who could see how that makes sense.

Of course, theists would claim that was old testament thinking...and all that nonsense about the new testament blah blah blah...zzzzzzzzz....oh sorry, almost dozed off. What really puzzles me, and I will use your example, is this. If you did in fact throw your child in the oven simply for not believing and then you asked for and received 'god's' forgiveness (since he forgives everyone for everything apparently), what would stop you from doing it again? Since, if you did it again, wouldn't you just have to ask for forgiveness again?

I know there is something in the bible that says something about asking for forgiveness knowing you may do it again, but it still doesn't make sense to me. Why, if there really were a god, would I want to live a moral life if I know that I could do anything wrong and just ask for forgiveness?  

You bring up a really good point, one which contradicts many theists' claims that you need God and religion to live a moral life. if a person beleives that God is the highest authority, and that that authority will simply forgive them if they ask for it, then Christianity could actually enable someone to life a completely immoral life and then essentially just say "Sorry" before they die.

All very true.  My family and I joked about this a few years ago at a reunion.  Growing up as a Catholic it was wonderful to know that if you screw up you just go to confession receive your penance from the priest and "viola" all is forgiven...until your next confession.  So, it was okay as long as you didn't screw up and die before confessing, or of course you didn't die somewhere that it was impossible to receive your holy benediction.  Makes me think of the poor priest that died running around on 9/11 giving benedictions to dying people in the wreckage ad how in the Army you had to be sure to state your religion on dogtags just in case they needed to issue a prayer at death.  Lots of i's to dot and t's to cross but you are a-okay if you follow the rules.  We saw it as much more of a "check" system on morals than somehting to follow.  Go figure.

I think that's something that makes it more important to live well and do no (or as little as possible) harm as a non-believer, there are no do-overs, no repenting, and it's just a way to live in society without wreaking havoc.

Quoteas a person that loves and chooses to follow god i am apauled by this. i think its stupid and not tactful when christians say that. however that is what i belive. i still dont go around saying it to non-christians. just thought youd want a view of a christian.

BMXRIDER724,

I used to be a christian who shared your viewpoint.  I thought that it was ridiculous to use fear as a weapon to try and convert people.  Now I know that I was just as big a problem as the idiot spouting fire and brimstone for non-believers.  By being a moderate and considerate believer I was complicit in maintaining a system that creates extremists.  My faith provided an environment where the fire and brimstone asses could thrive.  You do NOT get a free pass because you are nice.  You are as responsible for that boy's torment as the idiots that told him he should get an "asbestos suit."  Just as the person I was shares in that shame.  Wake up and smell the lack of afterlife.

I feel so much empathy for the writer of that. I've been there. I guess my whole fear was more complex too, because all my friends growing up were atheists or agnostics and still are, and from what some of these fundamentalists have said, it really is disturbing because I have heard a fundamentalist promise me that me and the people I care about will go to hell and I'll watch them suffer and they'll blame me for it. It's so sick, so sadistic, so insanely disgusting and he's right, it's a cancer that all the rationality in the world can never fully cure.

As they spread their cancer they know how to manipulate. To tell you that everyone on Earth will hate you in the end. To tell you that you will become unable to feel spiteful towards the god that damns you, that every person will know they deserve it and hate themselves. It is so fucking disgusting and it infects so many people.

If I ever raise children they will not grow up that way, they will not consider the thought. I will raise them with an ability to dismiss those sick myths before they take hold of them. How could I not?

Quote from: "wheels5894"Christians, and the Catholic Church in particular, have taken fear as a way of recruiting and retaining their adherents. Islam, however, is not exempt from this and the fear of being killed for leaving the faith must mean there are a lot of atheist thinkers trapped in Islam.

Indeed. It also means exâ€"muslims end up compelled by force to remain â€" at least for show â€" within Islâm. I describe this as compulsion, and I believe it renders the famous ayat at 2:256 in the Qur’ân (“There is no compulsion in religion” or “Let there be no compulsion in religion” ) patently false.

Quote from: "Miss Anthrope"You bring up a really good point, one which contradicts many theists' claims that you need God and religion to live a moral life. if a person beleives that God is the highest authority, and that that authority will simply forgive them if they ask for it, then Christianity could actually enable someone to life a completely immoral life and then essentially just say "Sorry" before they die.

At least from what I understand of Christianity, if one accepts as the Bible says that the sin leads to death, they probably are not going to want to live an immoral life because they know it often leads to more self-induced suffering and possibly even spiritual/physical death.  I think the fact that God would have mercy on someone who asks for forgiveness just before they die would attest to just how patient and willing to forgive He is.  From what I understand of original sin, man is fallible and imperfect.  People often make bad decisions and struggle against their selfishness.  To me, I find the doctrine of original sin comforting that I'm not expected to ace my morality test even if I do believe.  With that said, I am glad that the Bible encourages me to never be content with where I am spiritually or morally.  The other crux to this is the concept of grace.  Before I came to believe, I assumed that the Bible laid out how you had to do all these good works to earn your way into Heaven.  And in some ways, we are conditioned by our culture to think that way.  If Johnny does well in school, then he can earn his self-worth by basing it off how smart he is.  Now if you contrast that with the biblical account of grace and how God loves each one of us regardless of how smart/physically attractive/moral we are, to me, I want to learn more about that religion.  I suppose what I am trying to say is that when I read the Bible I don't necessarily picture a vengeful God who's waiting to bop me on the head every time I sin.  

And there are many different beliefs among Christian denominations as to who is going to Hell.  After I decided to pursue joining the Catholic Church, one of the pastors I knew at the Presbyterian Church tried to persuade me to change my mind and informed that he believed Catholics were going to Hell.  Now I had known the guy for a while, and I don't hate him for saying it.  But because I had given the decision a lot of thought, and I truly felt God was calling me to leave that church, my conscience was clean.  I suppose what I am trying to say is that it's not my job to be a mind reader and know how all your consciences stand.  And while yes i do believe in the existence of Hell, I don't think it's my place to attempt to guess where any one of you is going after you die.

Quote from: "dystop"

Quote from: "Miss Anthrope"At least from what I understand of Christianity, if one accepts as the Bible says that the sin leads to death, they probably are not going to want to live an immoral life because they know it often leads to more self-induced suffering and possibly even spiritual/physical death.

Whereas a morally sound religious person experiencing those things considers it a ‘test’ from god?

Quote from: "Miss Anthrope"

Quote from: "oldschooldoc"

Quote from: "Miss Anthrope"To those who are religious, whatever you want to believe is your business. I just hate hearing Christians try to justify the whole thing. By their own logic, it would be perfectly acceptable to throw my (hypothetical) child into the oven simply for not believing me if I told him something that I can't actually prove. I question the type of mind who could see how that makes sense.

Of course, theists would claim that was old testament thinking...and all that nonsense about the new testament blah blah blah...zzzzzzzzz....oh sorry, almost dozed off. What really puzzles me, and I will use your example, is this. If you did in fact throw your child in the oven simply for not believing and then you asked for and received 'god's' forgiveness (since he forgives everyone for everything apparently), what would stop you from doing it again? Since, if you did it again, wouldn't you just have to ask for forgiveness again?

I know there is something in the bible that says something about asking for forgiveness knowing you may do it again, but it still doesn't make sense to me. Why, if there really were a god, would I want to live a moral life if I know that I could do anything wrong and just ask for forgiveness?  

You bring up a really good point, one which contradicts many theists' claims that you need God and religion to live a moral life. if a person beleives that God is the highest authority, and that that authority will simply forgive them if they ask for it, then Christianity could actually enable someone to life a completely immoral life and then essentially just say "Sorry" before they die.

The problem lies in that God is not concerned with your words...He knows your heart and if repentance is not truly there then you are not truly "sorry."  This doesn't go to say that there are people who actually feel the presence of God before they die and repent in that moment..God forgives you nonetheless.  A testimony to His love and patience.

Quote from: "Ben-AG"The problem lies in that God is not concerned with your words...He knows your heart and if repentance is not truly there then you are not truly "sorry."  This doesn't go to say that there are people who actually feel the presence of God before they die and repent in that moment..God forgives you nonetheless.  A testimony to His love and patience.

How does this synch with God knowing everything at all times and having a plan for everything?

Quote from: "Jolly Sapper"

Quote from: "Ben-AG"The problem lies in that God is not concerned with your words...He knows your heart and if repentance is not truly there then you are not truly "sorry."  This doesn't go to say that there are people who actually feel the presence of God before they die and repent in that moment..God forgives you nonetheless.  A testimony to His love and patience.

How does this synch with God knowing everything at all times and having a plan for everything?

How does it not?

Quote from: "Ben-AG"The problem lies in that God is not concerned with your words...He knows your heart and if repentance is not truly there then you are not truly "sorry."  This doesn't go to say that there are people who actually feel the presence of God before they die and repent in that moment..God forgives you nonetheless.

Are you saying they wouldn't be truly sorry and afraid when they were about to die?  I mean, if they're already praying they either believe or want to believe, and no matter how callous they are, that surely means they will be feeling very, very sorry.  If they know they're dying, they won't waste their last chance to "get right".  And since I hardly think you can argue that anyone that prays and really means it, just because they don't want to end up in hell, ends up going there anyway, I think the repent-on-your-deathbed plan is pretty safe.  Even if you plan it, you are most certainly going to be sorry for everything including the plan when you get there.  This is a concept Titan didn't quite grasp.  You can plan to sin and still be truly sorry after word.

Quote from: "Ben-AG"

Quote from: "Jolly Sapper"

Quote from: "Ben-AG"The problem lies in that God is not concerned with your words...He knows your heart and if repentance is not truly there then you are not truly "sorry."  This doesn't go to say that there are people who actually feel the presence of God before they die and repent in that moment..God forgives you nonetheless.  A testimony to His love and patience.

How does this synch with God knowing everything at all times and having a plan for everything?

How does it not?

Okay, so I've heard these two assumptions about the Christian god:
1) God knows everything.
2) God has a plan for everything

I've also heard that God is good and wants us to make the right choices on our own so that they choice is ours and not forced/influenced by somebody else.  I guess this is an attempt to figure out if a person is a truly hard core believer just  faking it for Jesus.  

Now if there is a plan, and its God's plan, then nothing I do is a mistake.  If I'm living the life of a saint, its not really me that is doing it, because its all part of the plan.  If I'm living the life of a sinner, its not really me, as its all part of the plan.  

I may be an unapologetic mass murderer who on my deathbed decides to show remorse, but would that be me of my own volition deciding that what I had done was wrong, or would it all just be part of god's plan?

It's really shocking. This man or woman must be really suffering from religion. Indeed, religion is a disease.

Quote from: "rlrose328"I'd agree that it's not the mind of your average atheist but I do remember going through that myself.  And I agree... the fear spread by religion IS like a cancer.  Those of us who are former believers (or former TRYING to believe-ers) were probably brainwashed at an early age that the bible is true, god is real and that hell is real.

I was brainwashed into the whole God story when I was a kid. Then I looked at some points online on how God isn't real, I thought about them, checked them, and I realized that God doesn't exist.
My parents still think "You just read something off the internet and it converted you".

Quote from: "Pancake"I was brainwashed into the whole God story when I was a kid. Then I looked at some points online on how God isn't real, I thought about them, checked them, and I realized that God doesn't exist.
My parents still think "You just read something off the internet and it converted you".

Truly, that is rich.

"You just were told something by your parents and it converted you."
"You just read something in a book and it converted you."

It's like no one spends a moment to see if their little dismissive statement cuts both ways or not.

The first time I ever met my girlfriend, she had godisimaginary.com written on something she was carrying with her. I was more of an agnostic at the time but I still remember thinking "That's hot".

 We've been together almost a year now

Quote from: "liveyoungdiefast"The first time I ever met my girlfriend, she had godisimaginary.com written on something she was carrying with her. I was more of an agnostic at the time but I still remember thinking "That's hot".

 We've been together almost a year now :beer:

I keep getting called a "cvor" by a religious nut. And she keeps saying I suffer from the mental, spiritual and intellectual schizophrenia that plagues all atheists. How does one respond to that?

Quote from: "Matrix"I keep getting called a "cvor" by a religious nut. And she keeps saying I suffer from the mental, spiritual and intellectual schizophrenia that plagues all atheists. How does one respond to that? :)

As a Christian, I believe it is important to make others aware of the dangers of not acepting God. However, I agree with some of the others here in that walking around saying things like "You're going to Hell" is stupid, cruel, not the way to go about things. As Christians, we are supposed to portray a loving and forgiving message. Talking like this makes us sound like we're better than athesits or other unsaved, which we're not. We may be saved, but that's about the free gift God has given us; we outselves are actually no better than they. Trying to scare people into believing something may actually work for some, but for most, I do not think this is the best tactic.

Dristaan would a loving god condemn countless billions to hell for not being born in a Christian environment? out of the seven and a half billion people in this world only about 2 billion are Christians, most people are never born into the Christian environment and literally live their whole lives without knowing much about Christianity its a belief system.  Many people try to live good lives, do they deserve hell for the lack in a belief?  If a god condemns people to hell for something as benign as a personal belief then is he really worth our worship?  Is he good?  No, he is a power craving control freak neither deserving of our praise nor our respect.

By believing everyone who isn't in the buddy club deserves to be tortured forever is just as asinine and barbaric as the bronze aged people in the bible.  It doesn't matter that the belief is personal and you don't share it and condemn others for not having it.  That way of thinking belongs in the past.  The problem is most people have compartmentalized that particular belief so they do not question it.  I think hell should be questioned.  What finite crime deserves infinite punishment?  Not only infinite punishment but infinite torture?  Would you stick your children in the basement and torture them forever for not loving you?  No, you are not as petty and cruel as the god you worship.  Once you realize that perhaps you will start to change your mind about other aspects of your religion and revise the asinine concept of hell.

Quote from: "LoneMateria"By believing everyone who isn't in the buddy club deserves to be tortured forever is just as asinine and barbaric as the bronze aged people in the bible.  It doesn't matter that the belief is personal and you don't share it and condemn others for not having it.  That way of thinking belongs in the past.  The problem is most people have compartmentalized that particular belief so they do not question it.  I think hell should be questioned.  What finite crime deserves infinite punishment?  Not only infinite punishment but infinite torture?  Would you stick your children in the basement and torture them forever for not loving you?  No, you are not as petty and cruel as the god you worship.  Once you realize that perhaps you will start to change your mind about other aspects of your religion and revise the asinine concept of hell.

I just want to point out that in theological circles there is view on hell called "annihilationism" which holds that instead of being eternally tortured, the destruction of hell has eternal effects. These people say that this destruction is an act of mercy from God, designed to save people from their self-inflicted sin. And by the way, hardly any apologist takes the metaphors used to describe hell literally (many are contradictory). The Bible is simply saying that hell is a very bad place to be.

Quote from: "Reginus"

Quote from: "LoneMateria"By believing everyone who isn't in the buddy club deserves to be tortured forever is just as asinine and barbaric as the bronze aged people in the bible.  It doesn't matter that the belief is personal and you don't share it and condemn others for not having it.  That way of thinking belongs in the past.  The problem is most people have compartmentalized that particular belief so they do not question it.  I think hell should be questioned.  What finite crime deserves infinite punishment?  Not only infinite punishment but infinite torture?  Would you stick your children in the basement and torture them forever for not loving you?  No, you are not as petty and cruel as the god you worship.  Once you realize that perhaps you will start to change your mind about other aspects of your religion and revise the asinine concept of hell.

I just want to point out that in theological circles there is view on hell called "annihilationism" which holds that instead of being eternally tortured, the destruction of hell has eternal effects. These people say that this destruction is an act of mercy from God, designed to save people from their self-inflicted sin. And by the way, hardly any apologist takes the metaphors used to describe hell literally (many are contradictory). The Bible is simply saying that hell is a very bad place to be.

Oh wow you changed my mind annihilation for not being in the buddy club is sooo much better then hell [sarcasm].  And how exactly does this show God's mercy?  I don't like you so you're gone forever oh and i like these people so i'm going to stroke them forever, are you serious?  Annihilation is almost as asinine as hell.  I'm not sure what bible verses were used to make up annihilation, just like purgatory (which existed one day and not the next -_-).  The most fucked up part of Christianity is this idea that all you have to do is believe and you get eternal bliss.  Whats even worse is the mentality instilled into the minds of believers that if you don't believe you absolutely 100% deserve this fate.    

The screwed up thing is most believers who subscribe to this asinine system wouldn't implement it themselves if they were calling the shots.  Again do you think its right to torture people forever for finite "crimes"?  How about blink them out of existence?  The thing is the Christian view is black and white if you stole a loaf of break to feed your starving family you are just as deserving of hellfire(or annihilation [thou shalt not steal]) as a guy who goes around abducting girls, raping them and then murdering them.  What if that rapist was born with a mental disorder and doesn't know right from wrong?  Is it his fault or is it Gods who gave that disorder to him?  Does your God have the right to make people a certain way then condemn them to hell for not following his orders that were impossible to follow to begin with?  With God (the tyrant) there is no grey area there are no degrees of crime(or charity)  its either eternal bliss or eternal damnation.

If I were to spend my entire life helping others, donating money to charities, volunteering at places where people needed help that same God would still condemn me to hell (or annihilation) because i'm an atheist while he would forgive a serial killer on death row because he "found Jesus".  Fuck that asinine way of thinking it is primitive and it doesn't belong in civilized society.

Now this brings me to another thought.  Does God have the right to do this?  If you were in a lab and you created creatures do you have the right to destroy them?  Do you have the right to torture them?  Just because you have the ability does that mean you have the right?  Does might make right?  If you are a moral/rational human being then you would answer NO to this.  If you would say you don't have the right then why does your God?  Might does not make right.  If i'm stronger then you and able to do whatever I wanted to you do I have the right to do it?  NO!  The whole Heaven and Hell system is fucked up and it needs to be removed from the systems of belief.

Excellent post Lone Materia.  

Quote from: "LoneMateria"Oh wow you changed my mind annihilation for not being in the buddy club is sooo much better then hell [sarcasm].  And how exactly does this show God's mercy?  I don't like you so you're gone forever oh and i like these people so i'm going to stroke them forever, are you serious?  Annihilation is almost as asinine as hell.  I'm not sure what bible verses were used to make up annihilation, just like purgatory (which existed one day and not the next -_-).  The most fucked up part of Christianity is this idea that all you have to do is believe and you get eternal bliss.  Whats even worse is the mentality instilled into the minds of believers that if you don't believe you absolutely 100% deserve this fate.    

The screwed up thing is most believers who subscribe to this asinine system wouldn't implement it themselves if they were calling the shots.  Again do you think its right to torture people forever for finite "crimes"?  How about blink them out of existence?  The thing is the Christian view is black and white if you stole a loaf of break to feed your starving family you are just as deserving of hellfire(or annihilation [thou shalt not steal]) as a guy who goes around abducting girls, raping them and then murdering them.  What if that rapist was born with a mental disorder and doesn't know right from wrong?  Is it his fault or is it Gods who gave that disorder to him?  Does your God have the right to make people a certain way then condemn them to hell for not following his orders that were impossible to follow to begin with?  With God (the tyrant) there is no grey area there are no degrees of crime(or charity)  its either eternal bliss or eternal damnation.

If I were to spend my entire life helping others, donating money to charities, volunteering at places where people needed help that same God would still condemn me to hell (or annihilation) because i'm an atheist while he would forgive a serial killer on death row because he "found Jesus".  Fuck that asinine way of thinking it is primitive and it doesn't belong in civilized society.

Now this brings me to another thought.  Does God have the right to do this?  If you were in a lab and you created creatures do you have the right to destroy them?  Do you have the right to torture them?  Just because you have the ability does that mean you have the right?  Does might make right?  If you are a moral/rational human being then you would answer NO to this.  If you would say you don't have the right then why does your God?  Might does not make right.  If i'm stronger then you and able to do whatever I wanted to you do I have the right to do it?  NO!  The whole Heaven and Hell system is fucked up and it needs to be removed from the systems of belief.

Might want to put on your ultra thick God glasses at this time.

Most theologists believe that hell is literally chosen by people (is not some sort of strange punishment God likes to inflict on non-believers). Let me give you an example: If an alcoholic who has abandoned his family goes to hell, he may get all the beer he wants, but he is missing out on life, missing out on the love of God and fellow people. This is what he wants, but it is absolutely hell to the rest of us. The Bible says that without Christ, all of us are doomed to this self created destiny. The only way it is possible to not go to hell is by accepting the invitation of God to make us how he wants us. Anything less and we are doomed to sin's corruption.

Quote from: "Reginus"Might want to put on your ultra thick God glasses at this time.

Most theologists believe that hell is literally chosen by people (is not some sort of strange punishment God likes to inflict on non-believers). Let me give you an example: If an alcoholic who has abandoned his family goes to hell, he may get all the beer he wants, but he is missing out on life, missing out on the love of God and fellow people. This is what he wants, but it is absolutely hell to the rest of us. The Bible says that without Christ, all of us are doomed to this self created destiny. The only way it is possible to not go to hell is by accepting the invitation of God to make us how he wants us. Anything less and we are doomed to sin's corruption.

By your tone I take it you don't subscribe to this.  I'm curious who "most theologists" are.  This view sounds like the karma view of hell, whatever you enjoyed most in the world would fuck you in hell.  Also where does it say that without Christ, all of us are doomed to a self created destiny?  Anyway this doesn't negate my points in my last post.  If you aren't in the buddy club you go to hell, just people seem to have different interpretations of what it entails.  It doesn't negate my points that God has no right to force us into this, he has no right to make us unhappy (or happy for that matter).  All this is, is another variation of a dubious place where you go when you die.

I just remembered something I heard on the Atheist experience.  There was an episode (well a few) that talked about hell and the impact it has on people.  They were explaining why the punishment is so bad and why it has to be.  Logic and reason already shine doubt on Christianity (theism in general) so in order to keep people on the boat you have to devise some means of keeping them on board.  Thats what hell is.  The reason hell is so bad is that you tell someone if you don't believe then you won't get hand jobs forever not a big deal, people will take their chances.  You have to create a punishment for not believing, and the more wild the claim the worse the punishment has to be to keep people believing.  If you told an atheist if he or she didn't believe in God then their punishment would be that they can't play video games for a year once they die.  Its not nearly enough motivation to keep me believing in a self contradictory concept that makes me reject science, reason, logic and critical thinking skills.  If i'm wrong fuck it no big deal.  So the early church had to make the concept of hell so much worse to keep people motivated, now its torture forever.  The punishment is just as wild as the claim now you can keep people invested in this system.  The first post here is evidence of it.

Yes I would like to know, what most theologians? I understand that the barbaric hellfire concept has been abandoned by most in the “upper reaches” of Christianity, but only to be replaced by vague answers like “it’s a hell of their own making”, as an answer to what happened to Hitler. This answer was given by an Australian theologian from the ACU (Australian Catholic University), but really answers nothing…

Very very good post. This guy gets pretty deep! I can almost relate to him in a way. Some of us have thought deep about the same issues in our life. This guy should write a book!

One of my main problems with the hellfire scare tactic is not so much the effect it has on people who choose the religion that creates the fear, but with the people who choose not to follow the religion but are still effected by it. I suppose my approach to Christian people (to pick a religion I'm most familiar with) who stay Christian despite the fire and brimstone sermons is along the lines of, "if her husband beats her, she should just get out. Simple as that." I know there are other factors involved, I'm just looking at it superficially for the moment.

In grade 10 I wanted to drop science as a subject because I wanted to take another language instead. My whole life I had been told that without science, thousands of doors close to me in my future and that I will no longer be able to make free decisions and study what I want to study. But I dropped it anyway and I was extremely happy doing so, even though I constantly questioned whether or not it was the right thing to do at the time. Even after matric, applying at universities, I was still nervous that they'd point fingers and say, "hey, she doesn't have matric science, why is she even trying to study here?" 6 years later I still know I made the right decision, but that feeling that science as a highschool subject is important was unnaturally difficult to shake because I had had it "preached" to me since I could understand.

Because I was raised in an entirely secular environment, that analogy is the best one I can think of for a religious person who tries to shake their religion. The fear is never going to go away, so you had might as well just keep believing in order to stay on god's good side, perhaps.

Now and then I still worry about the possibilities of hell and an afterlife. Don't get me wrong, I'm living a decent life and don't believe in the physical, religious realms of heaven and hell, but the two concepts are so ingrained into our lives, whether we are believers or not. It's like everywhere you look people are talking about it, like it's saturated our society with religious preoccupation.  Not believing in a god is easy as pie for me, since I feel it is a rational and logical conclusion. It's the afterlife stuff that bugs me at times. Televangelists like Ray McCauley and Joel Osteen, Catholic leaders like the Pope, even movies about hell such as Constantine, Jacob's Ladder, The Gate etc. All of these things we know about, whether we believe in hell or not. It seems like the entire religious basis of our society is grounded in fear, which effects most people (granted, not everyone) on at least some microscopic level. No wonder we doubt ourselves sometimes.

QuoteIt was the threat of hell that brought me into it, and it's the threat of hell that hangs over my head.

The author here makes his thesis. He was "brought into it" (Christianity) by a "threat" of hell. Now the first thing I wonder is... If the author wasn't a Christian prior to the "threat", then what possible validity could he afford the "threat". Non-believers by definition don't believe in Hell. So if he didn't believe it, then why would hearing of it suddenly cause any fear at all? He'd have to believe it to fear it. People don't fear what they don't believe. Therefore, I believe he's not being accurate when he claims it was the "threat" that brought him in. He already believed there may be some ultimate judgment for his behavior,  and hearing of the Christian hell only confirmed what he already knew on some other level.

This makes the second half of the statement look silly too. If he is no longer a Christian, then he is saying the Cristian hell does not exist, so why is he still fearing it? Irrational is as irrational does. It's not Christians, their beliefs, nor their expression of them that causes his dilemma. It's the author's own beliefs that cause him to believe he was wrong to reject the concept of hell, thus allowing for fear to enter, as he fears he is wrong on the overt expression of his beliefs while not being able to admit he really believes what he says he does not believe.  

Quote from: "objectivitees"Non-believers by definition don't believe in Hell.

QuotePeople don't fear what they don't believe.

QuoteIf he is no longer a Christian, then he is saying the Cristian hell does not exist, so why is he still fearing it?

Support these assertions.

You seem to have a habit of thinking in binary terms. This is the third false dichotomy you've presented today.

i can understand someone still having a fear of something that they used to believe in. especially a newly deconverted or someone who had the idea of hellfire beaten into them.
I wonder if its possible to completely leave everything behind you where raised into…. I think so, but its influence could still be pretty heavy.
Any who, its not so outlandish imho for an atheists to have fears of hell. Perhaps an atheist of strong disbelief wouldn’t, as I think its funny when people tell me im going to hell. I like to claim im driving the bus down there and hell is much better than heaven. There is no beer in heaven. Just virgins…. All the whores and std riddled sluts go to hell, they are much more fun….

What was I talking about?
Oh yes atheists frightened of hell….
Its amusing, someone of faith would believe in things one can’t see, but doubt/not understand another’s fear of something they (the theists) might believe in.

Quote from: "elliebean"

Quote from: "objectivitees"Non-believers by definition don't believe in Hell.

QuotePeople don't fear what they don't believe.

QuoteIf he is no longer a Christian, then he is saying the Cristian hell does not exist, so why is he still fearing it?

Support these assertions.

You seem to have a habit of thinking in binary terms. This is the third false dichotomy you've presented today.

Binary terms? The phrase I believe you are looking for is " false bifurcation." I think this way because it is the proper way to formulate Logical argumentation. It's informally called "the law of the excluded middle", and is usually referred to as the third law of logic.

None of these are assertions, they are "AXIOMS" and as such don't have to be proven. Non-believers in christian hell by definition don't believe in it. people don't fear what they don't believe in because if they did, they'd believe it. So, is he saying he doesn't believe in Christianity but believes in it's hell?? Come on, your remarks in response to my posts here so far have been nothing but your bald assertions.

It's called having a phobia due to brainwashing.  Lots of people are afraid of things that they know aren't real...I know someone who is afraid of sharks in a land locked lake; knowing a fear is irrational doesn't take away the pscyhological response.


Plus if you think the article referenced in the OP was intended to be taken as a logical argument for anything....sigh....

Quote from: "Whitney"It's called having a phobia due to brainwashing.  Lots of people are afraid of things that they know aren't real...I know someone who is afraid of sharks in a land locked lake; knowing a fear is irrational doesn't take away the pscyhological response.


Plus if you think the article referenced in the OP was intended to be taken as a logical argument for anything....sigh....

This is true. Some parental advice I got from a psychologist when dealing with my son when he's frightened: Make contact with him first, let him know he's loved and that you're there for him. Don't start explaining why the fear is irrational first. Because fear is never rational. And beginning with this will only irritate the parent and make the child feel "stupid" without easing any of his worries.

Quote from: "Sophus"Because fear is never rational.

I guess I should stop fearing being shot by the enemy when I go into combat.

Quote from: "objectivitees"

Quote from: "Sophus"Because fear is never rational.

I guess I should stop fearing being shot by the enemy when I go into combat.

Why is fear of death and dying rational? Fear is a feeling. Feelings are never a product of reason. Besides, isn't that the big Christian kick? You're not suppose to fear anything while God's on your side?

Quote from: "objectivitees"Binary terms? The phrase I believe you are looking for is " false bifurcation." I think this way because it is the proper way to formulate Logical argumentation. It's informally called "the law of the excluded middle", and is usually referred to as the third law of logic.

None of these are assertions, they are "AXIOMS" and as such don't have to be proven. Non-believers in christian hell by definition don't believe in it. people don't fear what they don't believe in because if they did, they'd believe it. So, is he saying he doesn't believe in Christianity but believes in it's hell?? Come on, your remarks in response to my posts here so far have been nothing but your bald assertions.

You done puffing your chest out?

Ok, let me walk you through this:

Quote from: "objectivitees"

QuoteIt was the threat of hell that brought me into it, and it's the threat of hell that hangs over my head.

The author here makes his thesis. He was "brought into it" (Christianity) by a "threat" of hell. Now the first thing I wonder is... If the author wasn't a Christian prior to the "threat", then what possible validity could he afford the "threat". Non-believers by definition don't believe in Hell.

You ignore that there are people who are not christians, yet believe in hell. False dichotomy.

QuoteSo if [we assume] he didn't believe it, then why would hearing of it suddenly cause any fear at all? He'd have to believe it to fear it. People don't fear what they don't believe.

Unsupported assertion; already dealt with.

QuoteTherefore, I believe he's not being accurate when he claims it was the "threat" that brought him in. He already believed there may be some ultimate judgment for his behavior,  and hearing of the Christian hell only confirmed what he already knew on some other level.

He may have already heard of, and believed in, all sorts of christian mythology without previously having identified as a christian. Binary thinking. It's all or nothing with you; either he's a fully indoctrinated christian, or he's totally immune.

QuoteThis makes the second half of the statement look silly too. If he is no longer a Christian, then he is saying the Cristian hell does not exist...

Is he? For that matter, does christianity have a monopoly on concepts of hell? Not that your argument would be any stronger if it had.

Quoteso why is he still fearing it?

Got me.

QuoteIrrational is as irrational does.

Life is like a box of.... nobody said it was rational to have a fear of something that doesn't exist. Some people do, go figure. Besides, that fearful feeling could be a learned neurochemical response to certain stimuli, like psychological abuse, or people constantly telling him he's going to hell.

QuoteIt's not Christians, their beliefs, nor their expression of them that causes his dilemma.

They sure help.

QuoteIt's the author's own beliefs that cause him to believe he was wrong to reject the concept of hell...

Does he say that? Guess I missed that part. *shrugs*

Quotethus allowing for fear to enter, as he fears he is wrong on the overt expression of his beliefs while not being able to admit he really believes what he says he does not believe.

Who knows what he believes or doesn't believe. He might be struggling with his skepticism or he might have trouble letting go of old habits. Hell, he could be making the whole thing up. Some of us don't pretend to read minds.

I don't agree with the original author of the article but I can sympathize because I know many people are very engrossed in their religion before coming to terms.

On the other hand, If "hell" is that place where you were before you were conceived where you had no thoughts, no memories, no body or mind, no you, no existence at all; then I am going to hell and yes, I do fear it. Biblical Hell is like a sunny day when compared to utter lack of existence and that's just why I believe it was created. Because I don't think people in general can handle thinking about the truth for too long. It will surely drive them nuts.

I accept that one day not that long from now on the grand scale I will cease to be. It makes me very sad to know that my grandmother and former pets aren't waiting for me in some other place, whether the place is pure good or pure pain. I don't dwell on the reality because it frightens and saddens me and it's just too much.

I can relate somewhat to what the writer of the original article is saying.  I grew up having Christianity crammed down my throat and was forced to go to church until I was a teenager.  I decided I didn't want any part of a religion that claimed God loved everyone, and yet at the same time was rife with bigotry and misogyny, and played on fear more than love.  Even 8 years later though, I still have that occasional pang of fear-what if they're right, and I'm wrong?  What if God actually does exist, and I'm doomed for being a heathen?  I know these kind of thoughts are irrational, but I almost can't help having them occasionally.  I take comfort in knowing that when it comes down to it, I can prove my beliefs through logic and reason and not smoke and mirrors.

Quote from: "JustInterested".  Why do so many Christians insist on using fear as a tool for conversion?

fear is an easily used weapon for any religion they want you to convert in their eyes what they are doing is correct...fear makes people confused and thus easily swayed by a hope of an imaginary being protecting you from an imaginary place... just my two cents.

Quote from: "The Heretic"

Quote from: "JustInterested".  Why do so many Christians insist on using fear as a tool for conversion?

fear is an easily used weapon for any religion they want you to convert in their eyes what they are doing is correct...fear makes people confused and thus easily swayed by a hope of an imaginary being protecting you from an imaginary place... just my two cents.

Fear is a tool not only used by religion, it's a tool used by many a man to manipulate the masses for secular goals as well.

Sounds like you wrote a poem rather than asking for help, I like your style.

Remember, fear is how religions work! Seriously, that is the essence of them! Without the fear, people wouldn't join up. The fear of being tortured forever and ever until the end of time is startling, and no ex-theist can shake that idea off of them and have it stay off, but if it is inflicting with every-day life like it sounds, I seriously suggest that you go see a Psychiatrist, they are there to help.

Also, to help keep your mind off of the christian hell, many speculate that the translators mistranslated. This will help calm your nerves: http://www.bibleed.com/bibleteachings/o ... dgrave.asp (http://www.bibleed.com/bibleteachings/otherbibleteachings/hellandgrave.asp)

Just remember, life is life. Life is a postive, not a negative!

Stay cool, enjoy life  

It is disappointing that fear has create a mark in the religious way. Fear works like a cancer but it depends upon you to choose the right thing. Sometimes fear helps in presenting your views in front of the people. It not always good but it is necessary to think and live in the positive way even there are many problems. Fear creates the confusion and negative thinking. But you must live in the positive way which gives no fear.

Isn't christianity based on fear? I've never come across a sect that doesn't have the heaven+hell concept in which you must act morally good(grammar?) or else be sent to rot and burn in whichever circle of hell your sin assigns you. Sadly corruption is everywhere, I've considered communism to be a wonderful idea if not for man's greed and strive for power.

the "church" as a collective isnt perfect. Youll find some genuine folk who want to do the right the right thing and others who just want your money. Fear is a powerful tool when serving God, it gives man a greater ability to resist sin. That is what it is supposed to be used for, not putting fear into the hearts of individuals, but if these people would pickup a bible i wouldnt have to tell them that.

Quote from: "Category"I've considered communism to be a wonderful idea

Communisim is worse than organised religion in my opinion. The thought of taking away my personal freedoms and bestowing my life's decision's onto my government so that they can make my decisions for me for the greater good of the people. Really, what is the point to life if you don't get to make decisions for yourself. As a capable adult your life should be in your own hands, you do not need mummy and daddy telling you what to do. Governments should only intervene if absolutely necessary.

Quote from: "jaymayo"Hmm... Hell doesn't scare me. But HEAVEN? Jeez, I'd be bored out of my mind. Eternal peace and eternal happiness. No!!! Life is beautiful because of some of the aches and pains. When we grow accustomed to eternal peace it becomes eternal routine... like a dead end job. If I'd go to heaven, I'd actually jump out from the ka-billionth-floor and down to hell. And as soon as I hit the flames, I'm glad that I could feel pain once again and finally diminish into nothingness as the lava of satan burns me into nothingness... But that's more of a lampoon.

Do I fear what the afterlife holds? No. It's kind of inane to say what heaven and hell is like since there is nothing to support such a stupid claim. Like the claim that there is a teapot revolving around the sun...

That's the way I feel about it too, if I did get to heaven I would be bored out of my mind! I would be right behind jaymayo jumping from that building! I'll need to borrow an asbestos suit first! Lol.

Quote from: "Whitney"

Quote"…Hope you have an asbestos suit, cause you're going to HELL…"

Obviously heaven and hell don't exist, but I've always thought that the Christian idea of heaven would be my idea of hell anyway. Having to spend all eternity in the company of stupid religious zealots. I really can't imagine anything more painful, it would be like one long eternal church service that never ended....working on that logic maybe we all end up in the same place anyway!

Plus I've always thought that any god that would take pleasure in torturing and burning people for all eternity just because they didn't believe in him (particularly when all the evidence seems to point to his non-existence), or because they're gay, or had pre-marital sex or used condoms or committed any other number of pointless little sins, really would have to be a rather nasty and barbaric deity not worthy of worshipping anyway. Looks like God never learnt to turn the other cheek!

Any Christian who tells you that you're going to burn in hell for not believing in their god has some serious personality disorders to wish that kind of torture and punishment on another human being. I always find a good way of winding any Christian up who spouts this rubbish is to tell them that actually they'll be the ones punished in the afterlife for not accepting Zeus as the sovereign creator of the Universe (or Allah or Odin or any other non-Christian deity...take your pick!) Although I guess  you just could tell them that hell (like their god) doesn't exist...

Little sleep, and maybe some bad pizza... ?

This person is clearly mentally unstable. Blame others for your problems.. why not? Everyone else does.

Quote from: "Thinkbigger"This person is clearly mentally unstable. Blame others for your problems.. why not? Everyone else does.

Blaming others for problems caused by them? Clearly an indicator of mental insanity.

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"

Quote from: "Thinkbigger"This person is clearly mentally unstable. Blame others for your problems.. why not? Everyone else does.

Blaming others for problems caused by them? Clearly an indicator of mental insanity.

Well good, I'm glad we agree, but seriously.. Those Christians are literally getting on her nerves but no-one caused her psychosis, they only aggravated it.  That person seems to be having an panic disorder reaction to her life. Try rereading it and pretend it's written on a psychiatrists notepad. I'm willing to wager that she has a (monsters under the bed) problem too.

Personally, when I first realized that the whole God/Devil thing was starting to seem a little dicey, I felt relieved, not freaked out. That woman needs special care.

Quote from: "Thinkbigger"

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"

Quote from: "Thinkbigger"This person is clearly mentally unstable. Blame others for your problems.. why not? Everyone else does.

Blaming others for problems caused by them? Clearly an indicator of mental insanity.

Well good, I'm glad we agree, but seriously.. Those Christians are literally getting on her nerves but no-one caused her psychosis, they only aggravated it.  That person seems to be having an panic disorder reaction to her life. Try rereading it and pretend it's written on a psychiatrists notepad. I'm willing to wager that she has a (monsters under the bed) problem too.

Personally, when I first realized that the whole God/Devil thing was starting to seem a little dicey, I felt relieved, not freaked out. That woman needs special care.

Just because everyone's not like you doesn't mean they have fucking mental problems.

Religion, and ideology in general, can have a powerful and frightening grip on peoples' minds.

Not that it probably matters but the article cited in the OP was written by a male.

Ideology has evolved to have a large amount of control on a person's mind. It makes sense that it can cause a lot of damage.

There is probably nothing wrong with that person's mind, Thinkbigger, other than the problems all of our minds have.

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"Ideology has evolved to have a large amount of control on a person's mind. It makes sense that it can cause a lot of damage.

There is probably nothing wrong with that person's mind, Thinkbigger, other than the problems all of our minds have.

Please Mr Sandwich, speak for yourself.

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"Just because everyone's not like you doesn't mean they have fucking mental problems.

I swear to God I'm not trolling you but that made me literally laugh out loud. Boy.. talk about your quotable quotes. I think I just found my signature line.

 ;D

Quote from: "Thinkbigger"

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"Ideology has evolved to have a large amount of control on a person's mind. It makes sense that it can cause a lot of damage.

There is probably nothing wrong with that person's mind, Thinkbigger, other than the problems all of our minds have.

Please Mr Sandwich, speak for yourself.

I don't know you, so I can't say anything about your brain, but as a species, we all suffer from the same flaws.

Quote from: "Thinkbigger"

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"Just because everyone's not like you doesn't mean they have fucking mental problems.

I swear to God I'm not trolling you but that made me literally laugh out loud. Boy.. talk about your quotable quotes. I think I just found my signature line.

Glad I could make your signature.

Quote from: "JoeBobSmith"

Quote from: "Thinkbigger"

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"Ideology has evolved to have a large amount of control on a person's mind. It makes sense that it can cause a lot of damage.

There is probably nothing wrong with that person's mind, Thinkbigger, other than the problems all of our minds have.

Please Mr Sandwich, speak for yourself.

you're a psychiatrist?

u should be judging people?

Who are you to judge me for judging.. are you a Judge? lulz

Simmer down Joe. Remember, civility is the only thing that binds us.

I feel so sorry for this poor fellow. A prime example of how religious dogma can be instilled into someone and be almost impossible to get out after a certain point. Even after they realize what they believed before was utter bullshit.

The major faiths are based on Fear and not Love. That's spelling trouble right from the get-go.

Reminds me of a woman I saw on one of Richard Dawkins documentaries who had been raised Christian, and after falling away from her blind faith opend a clinic to help people recovering from the fear instilled into them by their various religions.

Quote from: "ForTheLoveOfAll"I feel so sorry for this poor fellow. A prime example of how religious dogma can be instilled into someone and be almost impossible to get out after a certain point. Even after they realize what they believed before was utter bullshit.

The major faiths are based on Fear and not Love. That's spelling trouble right from the get-go.

Reminds me of a woman I saw on one of Richard Dawkins documentaries who had been raised Christian, and after falling away from her blind faith opend a clinic to help people recovering from the fear instilled into them by their various religions.

Well, actually I agree. Most religions are based on Fear, including the Abrahamic religions.
But, is there a way that is more efficient?

it's the Fear that bonds, and from the bond comes Love. Mercy and Compassion.

Quote from: "iSok"

Quote from: "ForTheLoveOfAll"I feel so sorry for this poor fellow. A prime example of how religious dogma can be instilled into someone and be almost impossible to get out after a certain point. Even after they realize what they believed before was utter bullshit.

The major faiths are based on Fear and not Love. That's spelling trouble right from the get-go.

Reminds me of a woman I saw on one of Richard Dawkins documentaries who had been raised Christian, and after falling away from her blind faith opend a clinic to help people recovering from the fear instilled into them by their various religions.

Well, actually I agree. Most religions are based on Fear, including the Abrahamic religions.
But, is there a way that is more efficient?

it's the Fear that bonds, and from the bond comes Love. Mercy and Compassion.

That's like Stockholm Syndrome, when hostages feel a bond with their hostage taker and feel compassionate toward him/her, even though the experience was terrifying.

History's most ruthless rulers used fear to demand love.  God demands that we love him, or we go to hell.  Nice.  He's so great, yet he threatens us with eternal torment if we won't love him.  My first wife did that to me, and psychiatrists diagnosed her with a mental illness.

Well I guess it's easy for you.  You have 72 virgins waiting.  Why anybody would actually want 72 virgins is beyond me.  I thought the one virgin I was with was too much of a handful.  I can't imagine how much of a hell 72 virgins are.

Quote from: "fester30"

Quote from: "iSok"

Quote from: "ForTheLoveOfAll"I feel so sorry for this poor fellow. A prime example of how religious dogma can be instilled into someone and be almost impossible to get out after a certain point. Even after they realize what they believed before was utter bullshit.

The major faiths are based on Fear and not Love. That's spelling trouble right from the get-go.

Reminds me of a woman I saw on one of Richard Dawkins documentaries who had been raised Christian, and after falling away from her blind faith opend a clinic to help people recovering from the fear instilled into them by their various religions.

Well, actually I agree. Most religions are based on Fear, including the Abrahamic religions.
But, is there a way that is more efficient?

it's the Fear that bonds, and from the bond comes Love. Mercy and Compassion.

That's like Stockholm Syndrome, when hostages feel a bond with their hostage taker and feel compassionate toward him/her, even though the experience was terrifying.

History's most ruthless rulers used fear to demand love.  God demands that we love him, or we go to hell.  Nice.  He's so great, yet he threatens us with eternal torment if we won't love him.  My first wife did that to me, and psychiatrists diagnosed her with a mental illness.

Well I guess it's easy for you.  You have 72 virgins waiting.  Why anybody would actually want 72 virgins is beyond me.  I thought the one virgin I was with was too much of a handful.  I can't imagine how much of a hell 72 virgins are.

Fester, lets take it this way:

1. A God exists.
2. God wants people to follow His guidance.

The question is: How can He achieve this?
Answer: The most efficient way is the way of the Bible or the Qur'an.

Man is driven by fear.
You will only call for God, once I put you in a crashing airplane, there's no other reasonable way for you Fester.
Man's strongest emotion is fear. When man is put to fear, his true innerself comes out to present to the world who he really is.

What did you expect Fester?

That God would say: "Human beings, I love you, I will forgive you, it's okay, please try to be good..please...you know I love you?"
Do you know what our response would be?: We would start negotiating. 'Okay..so you're God, but...we want this and this to be fulfilled, otherwise we won't follow you'
This is our nature Fester, only Fear can bond us, after Fear, when we feel the bond, Love comes.

This is exactly what I noticed in the Qur'an.
The first 10 chapters of the Qur'an do this exactly.

The overal thought of the Qur'an from the first 10 chapters is this: "I am God, I do what I want and you are nothing more than a human, so bow and obey"
Do you know what type of people close the Qur'an after the first 10 chapters? The people who have ego issues and see themselves as important.
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/, see for yourself that the highlighting of 'controversial passages' decrease after 10 chapters.

After the first 10 chapters, the threats quickly decrease and the Qur'an then starts reasoning with you, to make you at ease.
It narrates historical passages and talks about nature to make you understand that this is the Truth.

When I first read the Qur'an, it felt like a battle. Especially the first 10 chapters. I couldn't read more than a few pages because it would make my head spin.

(When I read The God Delusion by Dawkins, the arrogance was like fireworks on each page, same counts for people like Hitchins or Harris)

Once you find yourself a 'good'/intelligent/kind person, you are not. Then you are developing ego.

The Qur'an does not accept ego, it demands submission.
"If you can't, then stop reading and close the book, some day you'll find out."

In overal, reasoning does not work for us. It's only fear that works for us human beings.
God would not know his creation if He wouldn't threat mankind.


On a side note: I mentioned multiple times that the 72 virgins is a myth within Islam, why are you repeating it? If it's a personal attack, you may repeat to enjoy yourself.

I can completely understand where this guy is coming from. I was raised in the Pentecostal sect of Christianity and they are fundamentalist. When I did go to church, they constantly talked about hell. Heck, my uncle even told me when I was four years old that the devil made up Santa Claus and the Easter bunny so we can forget the real reason for the holidays. I think the fear of hell was the reason I clung to Christianity and the belief of "God" for so long. Even now, I sometimes think about it; however, I decided that I'm not sure I would want to go to heaven with a deity that will only allow entry if you "believe in Jesus Christ". I think what a person does in life is more important than what one believes in.

Quote from: iSok on March 25, 2011, 07:01:48 PM
Fester, lets take it this way:

1. A God exists.
2. God wants people to follow His guidance.

The question is: How can He achieve this?
Answer: The most efficient way is the way of the Bible or the Qur'an.

Probably would be more efficient if he wrote shorter books that simply said "I am God, follow my guidance."  If we is all powerful, he can easily just talk to us as the Bible says he did with Adam.

QuoteMan is driven by fear.
You will only call for God, once I put you in a crashing airplane, there's no other reasonable way for you Fester.
Man's strongest emotion is fear. When man is put to fear, his true innerself comes out to present to the world who he really is.

If God exists, then it was his choice that we are driven by fear.  He could have created us to be driven by love.  Perhaps we would be a nicer species then.

QuoteWhat did you expect Fester?

That God would say: "Human beings, I love you, I will forgive you, it's okay, please try to be good..please...you know I love you?"
Do you know what our response would be?: We would start negotiating. 'Okay..so you're God, but...we want this and this to be fulfilled, otherwise we won't follow you'
This is our nature Fester, only Fear can bond us, after Fear, when we feel the bond, Love comes.

He would have nothing to forgive us for if he made us perfect.  Still have a hard time with the perfect being creating something imperfect, which would make him imperfect in my estimation.  Whatever.  Our nature is only our nature, by the estimation of theists, because God made it our nature.  Therefore, our nature could have been whatever he wanted it to be.  He didn't have to make us to be negotiators.

QuoteThis is exactly what I noticed in the Qur'an.
The first 10 chapters of the Qur'an do this exactly.

The overal thought of the Qur'an from the first 10 chapters is this: "I am God, I do what I want and you are nothing more than a human, so bow and obey"
Do you know what type of people close the Qur'an after the first 10 chapters? The people who have ego issues and see themselves as important.
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/ (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/), see for yourself that the highlighting of 'controversial passages' decrease after 10 chapters.

After the first 10 chapters, the threats quickly decrease and the Qur'an then starts reasoning with you, to make you at ease.
It narrates historical passages and talks about nature to make you understand that this is the Truth.

When I first read the Qur'an, it felt like a battle. Especially the first 10 chapters. I couldn't read more than a few pages because it would make my head spin.

When I first read the Qur'an, I had trouble following as well, because unlike the Bible, I had never had it drilled into me weekly.  I gave it a chance.  It didn't work out for me.  Obviously, as you point out below, I don't remember hardly any of it.

Quote(When I read The God Delusion by Dawkins, the arrogance was like fireworks on each page, same counts for people like Hitchins or Harris)

Once you find yourself a 'good'/intelligent/kind person, you are not. Then you are developing ego.

The Qur'an does not accept ego, it demands submission.
"If you can't, then stop reading and close the book, some day you'll find out."

In overal, reasoning does not work for us. It's only fear that works for us human beings.
God would not know his creation if He wouldn't threat mankind.

I never read the God Delusion.  I don't accept the Qur'an as anything other than a work of fiction.  Arguments about the nature of man with respect to God mean nothing to me, since God could have made us with any nature of his choosing, and could have made things easier on him and us in the process.  He didn't have to use the Stockholm Syndrome method.

QuoteOn a side note: I mentioned multiple times that the 72 virgins is a myth within Islam, why are you repeating it? If it's a personal attack, you may repeat to enjoy yourself.

I have never read where you mentioned that the 72 virgins thing is a myth.  I apologize, I won't bring that up again.  That was rather childish.

This article really tugs at my heart strings...  You can tell by his writing how much pain he's in.

I know that my relationship with my father is fading every day. We can't have a conversation without him bringing up God. It makes me very uncomfortable. He tells me he loves me, but wishes i'd see the truth. Then he'll make a snarky comment like "You think the sky is green, while I know its blue."
Wtf??

I can't really say I understand the OPs feelings because even when I was doing my darndest to be a believer the whole idea of Hell and eternal punishment never made any impact on me.  I guess my whole capacity for suspending disbelief was taken up just by the god idea itself.  However, I can understand the use of fear in compelling belief because it does work on a large percentage of people.  It worked on my brother -- I remember him telling me the main thing that made him a Xtian was the desire to avoid the fate described in Revelations.

Quote from: Sweetdeath on May 29, 2011, 01:52:51 AMI know that my relationship with my father is fading every day. We can't have a conversation without him bringing up God. It makes me very uncomfortable. He tells me he loves me, but wishes i'd see the truth. Then he'll make a snarky comment like "You think the sky is green, while I know its blue."
Wtf??

I had the exact problem with my mother when she found out. She would constantly make random comments about religion and god, and I put up with it for a while. Eventually one day while we were cleaning out a closet she found our old bible, handed it to me, and said "Here, you might learn something for once". I told her right then how much I didn't appreciate her criticism. It took her a while, but eventually she managed to stop.

I think you need to tell him outright how his comments make you feel, most of the time they honestly do want the best for you, even if they're so unhappy with what you've chosen it causes them to do/say hurtful things.

Quote from: Sweetdeath on May 29, 2011, 01:52:51 AM
This article really tugs at my heart strings...  You can tell by his writing how much pain he's in.

I know that my relationship with my father is fading every day. We can't have a conversation without him bringing up God. It makes me very uncomfortable. He tells me he loves me, but wishes i'd see the truth. Then he'll make a snarky comment like "You think the sky is green, while I know its blue."
Wtf??

It's a shame that you can't get along with your dad. Do you just keep quiet when he makes snarky comments?

Quote from: Sweetdeath on May 29, 2011, 01:52:51 AM
Then he'll make a snarky comment like "You think the sky is green, while I know its blue."

To which an Asmodean would probably reply something like "You know that the sky is blue, but then the night comes"

You guys are all so sweet.    My relationship with my dad has gotten better.   Kind of like if I dont step on his toes about god, he won't step on mine and preach.

Quite often that's the best way to go about it when family/friends disagree on religion. Just avoid the subject. It's usually a rare occurrence for one or the other to change their views, so it's the best option.

Yeah, when they make an effort, I should too, ya know?

I love my dad, and he's a bit zonky, but I know he'd sacrifice a lot for me if he had to.

As fair as family and or friends, only my dad is safe (since my mum isnt religious at all.)  But anyone else tried to opress me with religion, i'd just not deal with them at all.

Quote from: Whitney on September 10, 2006, 02:00:07 AMI highly suggest that any Christians who decide to visit this forum read his article....many Christians don't seem to realize how deeply threats of hell can affect some people.

Where I live there was a fire and brimstone hell preacher who was approached by some Jehovah's Witnesses, and told there was no such place as hell. The Bible didn't teach hell. To their surprise he said: "Oh, I know." When asked if he taught hell anyway to frighten his congregation into attendance he laughed out loud and said: "No. I teach it because if I didn't my congregation would make sure I didn't have a job."

When I was about 5 years old, having been raised an atheist, I noticed one day that my grandmother always seemed sad when she was getting ready for church on Sunday mornings, so I thought this one time that I could maybe go with her. I remember the preacher looking down on me and saying: "Do you know what happens to little boys who don't come to church? The go to hell." I was raised to think to say that was an insult - I had no real idea what it could have meant otherwise, so I said: "You can go to hell, I ain't going to hell." I got the back of my grandma's hand across the face and I ran home in the cold rain never to return to any church.

Since then I have learned this about hell.

The English Word Hell

The old English word hell comes from helan, and means to cover or conceal. Similar words coming from the same root have a similar meaning. Hill for example is a mound of dirt or stone that covers the level surface of earth. Hull is the covering of a nut or the covered part of a ship. Heal is the covering of a wound. Hall is a building space which is used to cover people or goods. Hole is an uncovering. Shell.

In the early days to hell potatoes meant to cover them, as to store them in a cellar or underground. To hel a house meant to cover a portion of it with tile. The term heling a house is still used in the New England portions of the United States.

At first the use of hell had no pagan meaning to it. It was simply used as the common grave of man. To go to hell in the old English language meant simply that one was dead and buried. It was in Germany and England that the word began to evolve into the pagan unscriptural meaning of eternal punishment.

Poor Modern Translation

The original meaning of the word hell is not so much a poor translation of the Hebrew sheohl (English Transliteration sheol) and the Greek Haides (English transliteration hades), as much as it is a case of the word having evolved into a pagan meaning; the modern day translation of hell is misleading.

The Catholic Douay Version translates sheohl as hell 64 times and once as death. The King James Version translates sheohl 31 times as hell, 31 times as grave and 3 times as pit. This is common in older translations as well, such as is used by the English Revised Version (1885) where sheohl is transliterated in many cases but most of the occurrences were translated as grave, or pit. Hell being used 14 times. The American Standard Version (1901) transliterated sheohl in all 65 occurrences and haides in all ten of its occurrences, though the Greek word Geenna (English Gehenna) is translated hell.

The Hebrew Sheol

The Hebrew word sheol is the unseen resting place of the dead. It is not to be mistaken for the Hebrew words for individual burial place (qever - Judges 16:31), grave (qevurah - Genesis 35:20), or individual tomb (gadhish - Job 21:32) but rather the common grave of all mankind whatever the form of burial might be.

The Greek philosophical teaching of the immortality of the human soul and hell began to infiltrate Jewish teachings probably around the time of Alexander The Great. The Bible itself, however, is in stark contrast to the teachings of pagan origin regarding the soul, which is not immortal (Ezekiel 18:4) and therefore can't suffer forever in hell. The Bible also teaches that there is no consciousness in hell. (Ecclesiastes 9:4-10).

Sheol corresponds with the Greek Haides, both being the unseen resting place of the dead. It is not a place of fire, but of darkness (Job 10:21) a place of silence (Psalm 115:17) rather than a place filled with tortured screams.

The Greek Hades

The Greek word Hades corresponds to the Hebrew Sheol as is indicated by the apostle Peter's reference to Psalms 16:10 at Acts 2:27-31 where Jesus had fulfilled David's prophecy that Jesus would not be left in hell. Peter quoted Psalms and used the Greek hades in place of sheol. Likewise Jesus himself said that like Jonah, he would spend three days in hell. (Jonah 1:17; Jonah 2:2 / Matthew 12:40)

The Greek word Hades occurs 10 times in the Christian Greek scriptures. (Matthew 11:23; 16:18 / Luke 10:15; 16:23 / Acts 2:27, 31; / Revelation 1:18; 6:8; 20:13-14.

It means the unseen place. In ten of the occurrences of hades it is in reference to death. It is not to be confused with the Greek word for grave (taphos), tomb (mnema) or memorial tomb (mnemeion), but is rather the common resting place of the dead. The place of death.

Jesus also uses hades at Matthew 11:23 and Luke 10:15 in a figurative way to indicate the debasement of Capernaum compared to heaven.

Also see The Rich Man And Lazarus below.

The Greek Gehenna

Unlike the Hebrew sheol and the Greek hades, there is really no excuse for mistaking the Greek Geenna (Hebrew Geh Hinnom - English Transliteration Gehenna) with the notion of any hell, either the old English word meaning covered or the pagan hell of today's Christianity.

The Christian Greek Gehenna is a literal place - a valley that lies South and South-West of ancient Jerusalem. It is the modern day Wadi er-Rababi (Ge Ben Hinnom), a deep, narrow valley. Today it is a peaceful and pleasant valley, unlike the surrounding dry and rocky terrain, and most certainly unlike the pagan / apostate Christian hell. (See Image Below)

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fthedaystar.webs.com%2Fimages%2Fgehenna.gif&hash=f81082345887705a068066380b4d8e651cb476bc)

In the days of unfaithful Kings Manasseh and Ahaz idolatrous worship of the pagan god Baal was conducted in the place which was then known as Geh Hinnom, (the valley of Hinnom) including human sacrifices to fire. It is ironic that the pagan custom of burning in fire, as in hell, would have so clearly infiltrated the Christian teachings, considering that this practice was a detestable thing to Jehovah God, and his prophets spoke of a time when this place would be turned into a defiled and desolate place. (2 Chronicles 28:1-3; 33:1-6 / Jeremiah 7:31-32; 32:35).

The prophecy was fulfilled in the days of faithful King Josiah, who had the place, especially the area known as Topeth polluted into a refuse heap. (2 Kings 23:10)

So it was that in the days of Jesus and the early Christian congregations, that the valley was known as a literal place where the carcasses of criminals and animals were thrown, having no hope for resurrection. The refuse there was kept burning with sulphur, which is abundant in the area. When Jesus used Gehenna as a figurative - a symbolic reference to the spiritually dead - the people in the area knew what he was talking about.
The Greek Tartarus

The Greek word Tartarus is found only once in scripture, at 2 Peter 2:4. It is often mistranslated as hell. Tartarus in the Christian Greek scriptures refers to a condition of debasement, unlike the pre-Christian pagan Tartarus (as in Homer's Iliad) which is a mythological prison. The word basically means the lowest place.

Peter refers to the angels who in the time of Noah forsook their original positions and became men in order to have relations with the women of earth. The result was their offspring being giants, the Nephilim, who caused so much destruction God had to bring forth the flood. (Genesis 6:1-4 / Ephesians 6:10-12 / Jude 1:6).

It is interesting that this verse is often mistranslated because when Jesus was resurrected from Sheol / Hades (Hell in some translations) on earth, he first went to tartarus to minister to the disobedient angels whom had been lowered in position - who happened to be in heaven in a position of debasement. This means that if you don't understand the mistranslation you would see Jesus go to hell on earth and then hell in heaven.

The Pagan Hell

The Pagan teaching of hell was adopted by the apostate Christian church. Today's thinking of hell comes more from Dante's Divine Comedy and Milton's Paradise Lost, but the teaching of hellfire is much older than the English word hell or Dante and Milton. It comes from Babylonian and Assyrian beliefs of a nether world. A place where gods and demons of great strength and fierceness presided over the damned.

Ancient Egyptian beliefs considered the Other World to be a place of pits of fire for the damned though they didn't think this lasted forever. Islamic teaching considers hell as a place of everlasting punishment. Hindus and Buddhists think of hell as a place of spiritual cleansing and final restoration.

Separation From God

Modern day Christians often try to soften the teaching of hell as a separation from God, but hell (as is often translated from the Hebrew Sheol and Greek Hades) can't be a separation from God, since God is in effect there - it is in front of him. He watches sheol for the time when the dead shall be resurrected. (Proverbs 15:11 / Psalms 139:7-8 / Amos 9:1-2).

Lazarus And The Rich Man - Luke 16:19-31

Jesus often taught people in a way which was easy for them to grasp. One way of doing this is through parables, or illustration. They are stories, which are not meant to be taken as literal accounts. Such is the case with the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man. Notice that the Rich man is buried in hades. If this account is to be taken literally then the Bible would contradict itself with all of the information being given in this article, but lets not leave it up to what may be thought to be my own personal interpretation.

Let it also be known that if this account is to be taken literally then that would make Jesus a liar. How so? How could Lazarus be at the bosom of Abraham in heaven when Jesus had already said that no man had ascended to heaven other than himself? (John 3:13).

The Lake Of Fire

The lake of fire is sometimes referred to as hell. The lake of fire is obviously a symbolic reference to everlasting destruction. Since hell itself is thrown into the lake of fire they can't be one and the same. Since death is thrown into the lake of fire and death isn't something that can be thrown literally, the lake is obviously symbolic. The fact that hell and death are symbolically destroyed by fire is harmonious with the end of sin which brought death. Those not thrown into the lake of fire are the meek who will inherit the earth and live forever upon it.

Secular And Religious References To Hell

"Sheol was located somewhere 'under' the earth . . . . The state of the dead was one of neither pain nor pleasure. Neither reward for the righteous nor punishment for the wicked was associated with Sheol. The good and bad alike, tyrants and saints, kings and orphans, Israelites and gentiles - all slept together without awareness of one another." - Encyclpaedia Britannica (1971, Vol. 11, p. 276)

"Hades . . . it corresponds to 'Sheol' in the O.T. and N.T., it has been unhappily rendered 'hell' " - Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (1981, Vol. 2 p. 187)

"First it (Hell) stands for the Hebrew Sheohl of the Old Testament and the Greek Hades of the Septuagint and New Testament . Since Sheohl in Old Testament times referred simply to the abode of the dead and suggested no moral distinctions, the word 'hell,' as understood today, is not a happy translation." - Collier's Encyclopedia (1986, Vol. 12, p. 28)

"Much Confusion and misunderstanding has been caused through the early translators of the Bible persistently rendering the Hebrew Sheohl and the Greek Hades and Gehenna by the word hell. The simple transliteration of these words by the translators of the revised editions of the Bible has not sufficed to appreciably clear up this confusion and misconception." - The Encyclopedia Americana (1956, Vol. XIV, p. 81)

"The word ( sheol ) occurs often in the Psalms and in the book of Job to refer to the place to which all dead people go. It is represented as a dark place, in which there is no activity worthy of the name. There are no moral distinction there, so 'hell' ( KJV ) is not a suitable translation, since that suggests a contrast with 'heaven' as the dwelling-place of the righteous after death. In a sense, 'the grave' in a generic sense is a near equivalent, except that Sheol is more a mass grave in which all the dead dwell together . . . . The use of this particular imagery may have been considered suitable here [ in Jonah 2:2 ] in view of Jonah's imprisonment in the interior of the fish." - A Translators Handbook on the Book of Jonah, Brynmor F. Price and Eugene A. Nida, 1978, p 37   

I agree with everyone that it is sad that the OP feels this way. But quite frankly, I just don't buy that you can put all of the blame on religion. There are millions of other people (both religious and atheist converts) who live their life not paralyzed by the fear of going to hell. It seems to me that this person has some deep issues. They were probably exacerbated by his leaving Christianity and now being petrified of going to hell, but I think it would be faulty to assume that they would be happy and healthy (emotionally) if they had just never practiced religion. I read through all the posts and I get that a lot of people empathize with this person and my goal is not to offend anyone. But after reading the OP, my guess is this person has issues beyond religion.

Quote from: Heisenberg on October 29, 2011, 12:13:58 AM
I agree with everyone that it is sad that the OP feels this way. But quite frankly, I just don't buy that you can put all of the blame on religion. There are millions of other people (both religious and atheist converts) who live their life not paralyzed by the fear of going to hell. It seems to me that this person has some deep issues. They were probably exacerbated by his leaving Christianity and now being petrified of going to hell, but I think it would be faulty to assume that they would be happy and healthy (emotionally) if they had just never practiced religion. I read through all the posts and I get that a lot of people empathize with this person and my goal is not to offend anyone. But after reading the OP, my guess is this person has issues beyond religion.

My guess is that someone with good intentions took a stab at being poster boy (or girl) for Ex-Christians. Someone who was involved briefly in it for emotional reasons and withdrew from it thinking they could perhaps alleviate some of their own guilt for propagating hell (judgement, condemnation, superiority, self righteousness) and come out looking like the underdog hero.

However, hell is an abomination of truth designed to make people feel good about themselves by making other people look bad. It xenophobic and destructive and simply not true.

One can believe in a loving and compassionate God, or one can believe in the traditional version of hell.  For a believer, I cannot see a third way.

Quote from: Sweetdeath on May 29, 2011, 01:52:51 AM
This article really tugs at my heart strings...  You can tell by his writing how much pain he's in.

I know that my relationship with my father is fading every day. We can't have a conversation without him bringing up God. It makes me very uncomfortable. He tells me he loves me, but wishes i'd see the truth. Then he'll make a snarky comment like "You think the sky is green, while I know its blue."
Wtf??

Just ignore it, the day will come when they won't remember enough to hold a discussion and you would be glad to have the discussion on the sky color. I was raised in a family where religion was not stressed and where two of the three children grew into strong Atheist. My Parents came from two different religions thus they never forced any god myth on us. Their families or the protestant side did try and force the issue and it drove me away from faith all together.
As time has passed I now have both parents in advanced care units due to strokes. I hear them mention god on every visit which at first bothered me, but then I recognized they were just mimicking the other patients and looking for something which might connect me to their lost past. I now put the god statements in the same context as I do when they think I am their brother, or worst when they don't remember who I am. I don't care what they talk about and am just glad for the small glimpses of who they were. They get rarer each week.     

Quote from: cncracer on June 30, 2012, 01:25:16 PM

Quote from: Sweetdeath on May 29, 2011, 01:52:51 AM
This article really tugs at my heart strings...  You can tell by his writing how much pain he's in.

I know that my relationship with my father is fading every day. We can't have a conversation without him bringing up God. It makes me very uncomfortable. He tells me he loves me, but wishes i'd see the truth. Then he'll make a snarky comment like "You think the sky is green, while I know its blue."
Wtf??

Just ignore it, the day will come when they won't remember enough to hold a discussion and you would be glad to have the discussion on the sky color. I was raised in a family where religion was not stressed and where two of the three children grew into strong Atheist. My Parents came from two different religions thus they never forced any god myth on us. Their families or the protestant side did try and force the issue and it drove me away from faith all together.
As time has passed I now have both parents in advanced care units due to strokes. I hear them mention god on every visit which at first bothered me, but then I recognized they were just mimicking the other patients and looking for something which might connect me to their lost past. I now put the god statements in the same context as I do when they think I am their brother, or worst when they don't remember who I am. I don't care what they talk about and am just glad for the small glimpses of who they were. They get rarer each week.     

sorry to hear about your situation.
some people wish to cherish family. i don't really. my mum is already dead and my dad and i rarely speak. if something happens to him, i'll remember the small good times we had, but i doubt i'll be dedicating my life to him.

I wonder how the OP of the cross-posted article feels today after almost 6 years?  It would be interesting to see if Ian's fear has abated in this time or if it ultimately forced him to return to the flock.  I would like to think that reason kicked in and overrode the emotion.

I can remember being afraid of hell (and ultimately the Christian god), although it has been a long time ago and I was a teenager.  It did take some time for that fear to disappear, although it eventually fled under the bright light of reason.

May be hiding somewhere deep in the recesses though, programming from infancy is tough to destroy.

Quote from: NQMay be hiding somewhere deep in the recesses though, programming from infancy is tough to destroy.

I'm afraid that's true.