Happy Atheist Forum

You know, the part where they give up trying to convert you back.  They just resign themselves to the fact that you're going to hell and there's nothing they can do about it.  They don't talk to you the same, look at you the same, or even introduce you the same.  Their title (be it Christian, Muslim, etc.) is secondary to who they are.  But if you're an atheist, your title becomes who you are.  "That's Seth...he's an atheist"  "Oh...an atheist"  They treat it like it's some kind of disease.  Like if they get too close to me, they might catch logic or reason, the precursors to full-blown atheism.  Here's a conversation I had with a friend online.  He's a hardcore, to-the-grave-for-Jesus Christian.

QuoteHim:  I wish you were the real Seth becasue this is lame and the other one was my Brother in Christ by BLOOD.  We where bros and now it's sad to see the worldly changes you have made.  Later, man.  I miss ya.

-Your old friend.

Me:  Thanks for your concern. I really appreciate it. I don't really know what happened. I just always took everything for granted and when I started looking at it for myself without assuming it was true, it didn't make sense. I didn't tell anyone for a while but I realized that I can't live my life based on the opinions of other people. Some people are going to get hurt by my disbelief, but I can't believe something just to make people happy. Ya know?

Him:  Yeah, I understand that you need to find a walk with the Lord...or else your gonna have a really hard life.  To tell you the truth, disbelief doesn't make sense to me at all. Faith does, and faith is what keeps us close to the Lord.  Faith that he is real and by having faith God shows us himself in AWESOME ways.  Now I understand how you can't just base your life on others opinions......but man I'm gonna tell you right now:  what I'm telling you is NOT an opinion.  JESUS is so real man and Satan is real.  If you're not serving one your serving the other.  You might not want to believe it...you might not care, but it's Reality!! So please think about what your doing man.  PLEASE !!

Me:  Some stuff just doesn't line up. If someone walks up to you on the street and tells you that people you can't see are talking to him, you're probably going to call him crazy. But if he then tells you that it's God talking to him, he's perfectly normal. I've never encountered God outside of an emotional experience. I've always had every reason to hear or experience what I did. I've never been in a normal mental or emotional state and encountered God, which leads me to believe that what I've experienced was just my emotions. Science is providing answers that aren't based on just "because it's true" Discoveries are being made daily that don't leave room for God. Another example is mythology. People used to believe that every storm on the sea was because that god was mad at you. We don't believe that anymore. Why? Because we know how the clouds and wind and air interact to make storms. I think that the more we learn, the more we will see that the things that we don't understand right now are perfectly explanable without God.

Him:  Well bro, I'll see in the end :[  Sadly science isn't all its cracked up to be.  Science was made by man to explain things they dont understand.  In my eyes science is the myth...a walk with Jesus Christ is Relationship.

I hate to hold him up as a stereotype, but he's pretty much rejecting logic, reason, common sense, and all those other words atheists use to describe how they came to their conclusions.  What's worse is, he's not even thinking twice about it.  I pity him so much.  I'd really like to pin the blame on someone for his condition, but I know that this started way too long ago to put blame on people now.  As I said, I hate this part.

I feel the most potent urge to regurgitate when I see theists treat an atheist this way. For what it's worth, I'm very sorry for what you're having to through, having gone through (and in some ways still undergoing) the same experience myself.

Can I take this opportunity to coin a new phrase?

"Atheism is the new Black."

 

Man, that is some serious brainwashing. Like, wow...

"Science was made by man to explain things they don't understand"? No, that's called RELIGION.

He's treating you like you're knowingly having an affair with his girlfriend.

He needs to see how predictable science can be; see how wrong he is about reality and how wonderful science really is.

put that kid in solitary confinement with COSMOS for a month.

Quote from: "Arthur Dent"put that kid in solitary confinement with COSMOS for a month.

Dr. Sagan will set us all free...

"We are all, quite literally made,... of star-stuff."

Quote from: "NearBr0ken"science was made by man to explain things they dont understand.  In my eyes science is the myth...a walk with Jesus Christ is Relationship.

[/quote]

i SO much hate it when people say this
next time, when he gets sick, I hope he doesnt use science's medicine then, but ask from his buddy jesus to heal him!

Quote from: "MariaEvri"

Quote from: "NearBr0ken"science was made by man to explain things they dont understand.  In my eyes science is the myth...a walk with Jesus Christ is Relationship.

i SO much hate it when people say this
next time, when he gets sick, I hope he doesnt use science's medicine then, but ask from his buddy jesus to heal him![/quote]


Incorrect. Medicine isn't science because god willed people to create medicine. Therefore it is god's will that we take medicine...

 

I have come to the conclusion that logic is subjective.  To us theist have no logic when they chose to believe in fantasy.  On the other hand, theists think it's illogical not to have faith.  We see truth in scientific proof and they see truth through indoctrination, dogma and invisible hope.  Both sides of the fence use their own 'truths' to support their beliefs and easily find ways to discount the other's claims.

I was once religious.  I can somewhat empathize with theists having their lives put in question by outsiders.  If you question your own beliefs there is a huge fear of being wrong.  No one wants to be wrong, including atheists.  It's an innate trait from birth to be right.  Please note: I AM always right.  Save yourself the trouble of google-ing references to support your thoughts.  If I make a statement on any subject, use it to either back up or refute your own beliefs.  Beware: I sometimes inject sarcasm.

to the op. that part about your religious alignment preceding your qualities and traits really strikes a chord with me. i grew up christian, and was taught not to be "unevenly yolked" and if i found out someone was mormon or a non-believer, i actually felt like god didnt want me to congregate with them. how many great relationships did i miss out on? how many things did i not learn?

and to the person above who quoted carl sagan, i literally love that man like a father. hearing a quote from him can make me tear up. he was such an amazing person. when i was younger, i would seek advice from the apostle paul in his books, now sagan has become my apostle paul! his works (among other writers') are my bible.

Quote from: "brekfustuvluzerz"and to the person above who quoted carl sagan, i literally love that man like a father. hearing a quote from him can make me tear up.

Ditto. Methinks I'll go pop in Cosmos right now.  ;)

Wow... I--I don't know what to say, except that I've yet to be treated like this from any christian. It looks pretty aggravating.
I'm sorry. Some things just aint right.  

Quote from: "DennisK"I have come to the conclusion that logic is subjective.  To us theist have no logic when they chose to believe in fantasy.  On the other hand, theists think it's illogical not to have faith.  We see truth in scientific proof and they see truth through indoctrination, dogma and invisible hope.  Both sides of the fence use their own 'truths' to support their beliefs and easily find ways to discount the others' claims.

That is far from accurate. Faith is not a subset of logic. You're straying too far from the definition of logic and making up you own overly vague definition, something like "logic - the way a person thinks" and it's clear to me that this redefining of words is a habit of a person who does too much talking and too little listening. A person who does desire to gain understanding, mind you, but thinks she can take a shortcut by spouting pseudo wisdom and thinking of everything as a yin yang.

Let me explain what I think you were doing when you made this preposterous statement. Try to follow me here.

The "shortcut" I was referring to is this branching off from both opposing viewpoints and confusing novelty with accuracy. Or confusing neutrality with accuracy. It is obviously difficult for anyone's ego to accept your assertion about logic and faith, but that difficulty has no correlation with accuracy. You seem to think reality is something one has to admit to. I think reality is something that one has to observe.

Read up on what logic is, because you have a huge misunderstanding of it. And pay extra attention to the second law of logic (non-contradiction) because from your assertion, you seem to think that a conjunctive proposition can be both true and false at the same time and in the same respect.

Quote from: "dodgecity"That is far from accurate. Faith is not a subset of logic. You're straying too far from the definition of logic and making up you own overly vague definition, something like "logic - the way a person thinks" and it's clear to me that this redefining of words is a habit of a person who does too much talking and too little listening. A person who does desire to gain understanding, mind you, but thinks she can take a shortcut by spouting pseudo wisdom and thinking of everything as a yin yang.

Let me explain what I think you were doing when you made this preposterous statement. Try to follow me here.

The "shortcut" I was referring to is this branching off from both opposing viewpoints and confusing novelty with accuracy. Or confusing neutrality with accuracy. It is obviously difficult for anyone's ego to accept your assertion about logic and faith, but that difficulty has no correlation with accuracy. You seem to think reality is something one has to admit to. I think reality is something that one has to observe.

Read up on what logic is, because you have a huge misunderstanding of it. And pay extra attention to the second law of logic (non-contradiction) because from your assertion, you seem to think that a conjunctive proposition can be both true and false at the same time and in the same respect.

Nope. DennisK was right. He didn't say they were being logical. He said it was faith that they can only come to accept as a truth. Cognitively this is indeed the case for some theists, while most likely not all. It's a matter of the mind. Although I would say reason is the more appropriate word in lieu of logic.

QuoteNope. DennisK was right.

Don't get me wrong. I delight in being opposed. But you really don't give me enough to go on here, and I don't want this to turn into another case of contrarian vs. adulator, so I'm going to point out why I was really unsatisfied with your adulation.

QuoteHe didn't say they were being logical.

Perhaps you are more familiar with the user than I am (which would explain your predisposition and commitment to adulation), but from the words in the post, it would be ridiculous for me to come away thinking that he meant anything but that. Again, emphatically, yes, he did say they were being logical. If logic is subjective then they could very well be. That is exactly what he said. Exactly.

If he meant something else, then I have no qualms with that. But I don't know what he meant. I only know what he said, and what he said was absolute rubbish.

QuoteHe said it was faith that they can only come to accept as a truth.

Yes, he did, but he also went on to say other things, which I disagreed with. I never claimed to disagree with the above statement.

 

QuoteAlthough I would say reason is the more appropriate word in lieu of logic.

Neither "logic" nor "reason" is appropriate. Faith is fundamentally different from both, and is a subset of neither.

I really don't know what else to say, except that I'm disappointed with the pandering on this forum. When I read a post, I pay very little attention to who is saying it, because that's irrelevant. I judge only the content of the post, even if I've known the user very well and have respect for them. This is is the only way we are going to find answers together, if we challenge each other, sharpen each other, when we are convicted to do so by reason.

I wonder if the question is really more along the lines of "can we change?"

Some people can change their worldview, while others never diverge from how they were brought up. It would be nice to have an answer that explains why.

Quote from: "dodgecity"

Quote from: "DennisK"I have come to the conclusion that logic is subjective.  To us theist have no logic when they chose to believe in fantasy.  On the other hand, theists think it's illogical not to have faith.  We see truth in scientific proof and they see truth through indoctrination, dogma and invisible hope.  Both sides of the fence use their own 'truths' to support their beliefs and easily find ways to discount the others' claims.

That is far from accurate. Faith is not a subset of logic. You're straying too far from the definition of logic and making up you own overly vague definition, something like "logic - the way a person thinks" and it's clear to me that this redefining of words is a habit of a person who does too much talking and too little listening. A person who does desire to gain understanding, mind you, but thinks she can take a shortcut by spouting pseudo wisdom and thinking of everything as a yin yang.

Let me explain what I think you were doing when you made this preposterous statement. Try to follow me here.

The "shortcut" I was referring to is this branching off from both opposing viewpoints and confusing novelty with accuracy. Or confusing neutrality with accuracy. It is obviously difficult for anyone's ego to accept your assertion about logic and faith, but that difficulty has no correlation with accuracy. You seem to think reality is something one has to admit to. I think reality is something that one has to observe.

Read up on what logic is, because you have a huge misunderstanding of it. And pay extra attention to the second law of logic (non-contradiction) because from your assertion, you seem to think that a conjunctive proposition can be both true and false at the same time and in the same respect.

I do understand the definition of the term and don't think religious people are logical.  The first sentence was slightly tongue in cheek.  What I was trying to say was that most religious people don't feel they are illogical or unreasonable when it comes to their beliefs.  It's about perspective.

I understood what he meant! :-p

Quote from: "dodgecity"Don't get me wrong. I delight in being opposed. But you really don't give me enough to go on here, and I don't want this to turn into another case of contrarian vs. adulator, so I'm going to point out why I was really unsatisfied with your adulation.

I'm not flattering anyone. Merely returning the transparent audacity in your statements.

QuotePerhaps you are more familiar with the user than I am (which would explain your predisposition and commitment to adulation), but from the words in the post, it would be ridiculous for me to come away thinking that he meant anything but that. Again, emphatically, yes, he did say they were being logical. If logic is subjective then they could very well be. That is exactly what he said. Exactly.

If he meant something else, then I have no qualms with that. But I don't know what he meant. I only know what he said, and what he said was absolute rubbish.

I can forgive forgetfulness. Over look his post again.

QuoteYes, he did, but he also went on to say other things, which I disagreed with. I never claimed to disagree with the above statement.

Of course not. You only wished to add more words into his mouth.

QuoteNeither "logic" nor "reason" is appropriate. Faith is fundamentally different from both, and is a subset of neither.

There is a reason for everything. Faith, of course, is different from logic. But there are reasons for that preference in faith. What decides upon what reason is? The human mind. Thus what is a reason for a theist may not be reason for you. It doesn't change the fact that there's still a reason for their beliefs. Simply because another's reasoning doesn't align with yours and you may see it as absurd, does not mean it isn't a reason. A reason doesn't have to meet your expectations to meet its definition.

QuoteI really don't know what else to say, except that I'm disappointed with the pandering on this forum.

Woe is me.

QuoteWhen I read a post, I pay very little attention to who is saying it, because that's irrelevant. I judge only the content of the post, even if I've known the user very well and have respect for them. This is is the only way we are going to find answers together, if we challenge each other, sharpen each other, when we are convicted to do so by reason.

Unfortunately, you didn't pay attention to what was being said. In the past when I try to point this out to people who share your same idiosyncrasy, it never seems to work because they absolutely refuse to reread the post with a fresh mind. We remember how we felt when we experienced something before we remember what we actually learned. You're letting an initial perception hinder you from learning.


Wechtlein Uns

Quote from: "Wechtlein Uns"I wonder if the question is really more along the lines of "can we change?"

Some people can change their worldview, while others never diverge from how they were brought up. It would be nice to have an answer that explains why.

Psychology explains this. Beliefs can change when new and valid evidence or reasoning is presented so long as the mind is not hidebound. The stubbornness is common because nobody wants to think that they've spent so much of their life living a lie. Most proselytes are either very open-minded are weren't ever firmly rooted in their beliefs in the first place. I would also say there are also those who are extremely pretentious in their beliefs. So much so that they go beyond stubbornness and resort to a pseudo life out of desperation. Thus beliefs aren't subject to will but denying and resisting them certainly is.

Nearbroken,

I have a very dear friend who is a fundy, married to a fundy preacher. Her whole life is wrapped around the concept of christ being the only important thing. She can't afford to question it. Long decades ago, she converted me briefly to fundy-ism. I tried my best, but I couldn't make all that doublespeak stick. My neural pathways couldn't stay on that narrow and circuitous (circular logic) track. Now we just don't talk about religion at all. We choose to remain friends, at the cost of complete honesty and openness. It is worthwhile for both of us. I would never dream of prying her religion away from her. Lucky for me, she believes that prayer is her best chance at seeing me saved again, so she never presses me. Under it all, I think she fears to go down that path because her faith is not built on solid ground. I could be wrong.

What I'm saying to you is that if your friend is important to you, perhaps you could work a similar bargain with him. Tell him you'd welcome his prayers, but that it is your path to choose. It is probably futile to argue with him. Apparently he really needs his imaginary friend.

QuoteYou're letting an initial perception hinder you from learning.

To be honest, that scares me more than the prospect of losing this pissing contest. I concede.

I read it again. It seems as if we disagree on very little besides semantics. When I heard "logic" I thought he was referring to the philosophical term, so I had a completely different take on the post.

Quote from: "dodgecity"

QuoteYou're letting an initial perception hinder you from learning.

To be honest, that scares me more than the prospect of losing this pissing contest. I concede.

I read it again. It seems as if we disagree on very little besides semantics. When I heard "logic" I thought he was referring to the philosophical term, so I had a completely different take on the post.

Seems to me more and more of these little debates on this forum boil down to semantics anymore. Oh well...