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Just like in other decades, Christians think that the return of Christ is coming soon and the end of the world is upon us. But with 2012 coming up it is even more strongly believed, with the support of many other belliefs to back it up. Things like the Mayan calendar, Nostradamus, and misc prophecies.

So what do you predict will happen in 2012 when the world DOESN'T end. Would it be a significant loss to Christianity and other spiritual "end of days" beliefs?

Christianity would most likely go on like it has for the past few hundred years saying "Wait for it... wait for it... NOW!....maybeeee... NOW!...wait for iiit... NOW!" but what are the chances of people deconverting when they realize that nothing is going to happen? Aren't they going to feel silly?

Quote from: "Stoicheion"Just like in other decades, Christians think that the return of Christ is coming soon and the end of the world is upon us. But with 2012 coming up it is even more strongly believed, with the support of many other belliefs to back it up. Things like the Mayan calendar, Nostradamus, and misc prophecies.

So what do you predict will happen in 2012 when the world DOESN'T end. Would it be a significant loss to Christianity and other spiritual "end of days" beliefs?

Christianity would most likely go on like it has for the past few hundred years saying "Wait for it... wait for it... NOW!....maybeeee... NOW!...wait for iiit... NOW!" but what are the chances of people deconverting when they realize that nothing is going to happen? Aren't they going to feel silly?

It hasn't stopped them feeling silly in the past... I'm sure the world was supposed to have ended dozens of times during my life and religion seems to be just as rampant today.

I've heard snippets about 2012 all over the net but don't really know what it is about. Which religions/cults/conspiracy theorists believe the world is going to end and why? Or is it just the same old 'big calamity' scenario?

Quote from: "Stoicheion"Christianity would most likely go on like it has for the past few hundred years saying "Wait for it... wait for it... NOW!....maybeeee... NOW!...wait for iiit... NOW!" but what are the chances of people deconverting when they realize that nothing is going to happen? Aren't they going to feel silly?

Probably not, they'll just slide it quietly under the carpet like a hundred other such daft predictions that have already failed.

Kyu

Quote from: "karadan"It hasn't stopped them feeling silly in the past... I'm sure the world was supposed to have ended dozens of times during my life and religion seems to be just as rampant today.

I've heard snippets about 2012 all over the net but don't really know what it is about. Which religions/cults/conspiracy theorists believe the world is going to end and why? Or is it just the same old 'big calamity' scenario?

I know there's the end of the Mayan Calendar, but that isn't impressive (They handled everything with massive cycles.  They laid out three of these massive cycles which were essentially copies of each other, much as we have the same 12 calendar months in a year.  Being that these three gave them millennia to work with, I'm pretty sure they decided "If we're still around, well add more cycles."  Using the Mayan Calendar as an endorsement for the end times is like going back to 1992 and seeing that a windows 3.1 clock/calendar can't be set to anything 2000 and beyond, and claiming that's what we believed as a race).  

There's the always-present Biblical end times, because we're sinning more than ever before (it can't get much worse than this, AMIRITE?).  

There's a Catholic prophecy laid down by an early pope that goes so far as to list how many popes there will be and a minor detail of each.  For the late Pope John Paul II, it was that he'd be a lion, and that was his coat of arms, or something like that.  Pope Benedict is the second to last one according to the prophecy, and the Pope that comes after him, explicitly named Peter, will see the end of the world.  

There's the Nostradamus stuff, but it's most of his stuff is fascinatingly ambiguous, and will be read however the reader desires, so no surprise there.

And that's about all I know of it.  I'll see you in 2013, and no, this won't even phase religion at large, trust me.

Quote from: "PipeBox"There's the always-present Biblical end times, because we're sinning more than ever before (it can't get much worse than this, AMIRITE?).  

quote]

I find it hilarious that they think we are WORSE now. Humanity's always been as full of shit as it is now. Holocaust? Large-scale murder of God's chosen?! Wouldn't that kick-start the end times more than people having premarital sex?

Quote from: "Stoicheion"Aren't they going to feel silly?

Silly? These people...

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(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages45.fotki.com%2Fv1200%2Fphotos%2F8%2F892548%2F6116196%2F1215283903986-vi.gif&hash=0f402d7c8cb21cb52bc7fa5c863986e387ac5986)

...can be made to feel silly over poor scheduling skills? Methinks not.  

Quote from: "Stoicheion"So what do you predict will happen in 2012 when the world DOESN'T end. Would it be a significant loss to Christianity and other spiritual "end of days" beliefs?

I think it will happen the same think that happened at january 2001 00:05
The world will shrug say "oh well" and go look for other "doomsday" "prophecies"

Lila, there's a season for everything except pre-marital sex.

Maria, I've always wondered what timezone the end of the world would fall in.  You know, because earth ending disasters always come promptly on the first of the month, on the hour.  But what timezone, I've always wondered.  12:00 AM in Japan would really mess up my last day, I'd hardly get any of it!  And no matter what time you pick, the folks nearest the dateline, on the west side of it, always get more earth time to play with!  Hardly fair for the rest of us.  

I say we petition all the deities to destroy earth an hour at a time so we all get the same amount of daylight.  Fair is fair.  

My own faith makes no such apocalyptic prediction.. assorted predictions based upon celestial alignments throughout history have never panned out.  I wouldn't go spending your 401Ks (if you have much left after our bank meltdown..) or your kids' college funds.. Jan. 1, 2013 will come as a shock to many people. I place zero stock in any Mayan prediction, this from the culture that believed the panacea for everything was ripping the still-beating hearts out of as many 'sacrifices' as they could conquer and kill. Their belief-system was morally untenable.

Again, the 2012 hysteria which we'll see from many Christian sects is entirely consistent with the figure upon which the faith.. or many 'faiths' (something like 20,000 Christian sects around the world at last count) was based... whether an historical figure or not, 'Jesus' was the leader of by what we'd define today as a 'Apocalyptic Cult', first and foremost. Now, there are many good teachings attributed to him -- most concepts of which  I believe the Greek writers of the New Testament were familiar with as passed down from Buddhism and had made their way West over the centuries..

Good point, karakara! BTW there is a theory that Jesus didn't die on the cross, but moved to India and started to teach there. That might explain the link with Buddhism.

Quote from: "Tom62"Good point, karakara! BTW there is a theory that Jesus didn't die on the cross, but moved to India and started to teach there. That might explain the link with Buddhism.

Sat Sri Akaal Friend,

I don't see how it can even be a 'theory' when the timeline, even by the wildest stretch, cannot support even the most remote possibility of this hypothesis, unless 'Jesus' was more 'Doctor Who', a time traveler.

Buddhism was founded by a truly historical figure, Siddhartha Gautama, who lived in the 6th Century BC.. several hundred years before Jesus/Yeshua/Nazarine/Christ's time on earth.  Buddhism was a re-working of the Vedic teachings, as in, inspired by Upanishads, which spawned Hinduism. Buddhism, although ostensibly not believing in 'God', has as it's goal 'Nirvana', which is basically union with, or 'becoming' God.. achieving God Consciousness.  Vedic, Buddhist, and other Dharmic philosophies traveled east and west, and there is no evidence that Indian development of religions were influenced in any way by middle eastern thought until, oddly enough, my own religion, Sikhism, some 500 odd years ago.


Sat Nam


Sat Nam.

Quote from: "karakara"Sat Sri Akaal Friend,

I don't see how it can even be a 'theory' when the timeline, even by the wildest stretch, cannot support even the most remote possibility of this hypothesis, unless 'Jesus' was more 'Doctor Who', a time traveler.

Bole So Nihaal, Sat Sri Akaal  Friend (I hope that I spelled it right),

It is indeed a theory that was developed by the nineteenth century Russian adventurer Nicolai Notovitch and the German scholar Holga Kersten. Some people still take it very serious (mainly New Agers), but for me it is another myth that cannot be proven.

- Tom

Quote from: "Tom62"

Quote from: "karakara"Sat Sri Akaal Friend,

I don't see how it can even be a 'theory' when the timeline, even by the wildest stretch, cannot support even the most remote possibility of this hypothesis, unless 'Jesus' was more 'Doctor Who', a time traveler.

Bole So Nihaal, Sat Sri Akaal  Friend (I hope that I spelled it right),

It is indeed a theory that was developed by the nineteenth century Russian adventurer Nicolai Notovitch and the German scholar Holga Kersten. Some people still take it very serious (mainly New Agers), but for me it is another myth that cannot be proven.

- Tom

LOL, you did indeed spell it correctly, thank you for the respect that this shows!

I'll look into it. I still say, Christ would have had to have been a time traveler for the theory to have any merit.. but if he could walk on water, bring Lazarus back to life, and perform all of those 'miracles', hell, what's a little time travel??

Waheguru

I'll answer this when you tell me where the Bible actually says that the world will come to an end in 2012. The Bible tell Christians that none of us know the date or the time. Basically whenever someone says "It's going to be today" we can be absolutely sure it isn't going to be on that day.

Quote from: "Titan"I'll answer this when you tell me where the Bible actually says that the world will come to an end in 2012. The Bible tell Christians that none of us know the date or the time. Basically whenever someone says "It's going to be today" we can be absolutely sure it isn't going to be on that day.

Its not the bible, it a South American religion, I think Aztec based on their calendar.  Something to do with everything going topsy turvey and all of our technology turning on us.

Quote from: "Jolly Sapper"Its not the bible, it a South American religion, I think Aztec based on their calendar.  Something to do with everything going topsy turvey and all of our technology turning on us.

I think now would be a good time to buy stock in SkyNet and warn Sarah Connor.

I came up with this post when i held in mind a conversation i had with an evangelical christian a few weeks ago. She kept saying that everything in Revelations was happening now. So perhaps not 2012 but within our lifetimes like a lot of previous generations thought.  

I say with confidence that the majority of Christians, or the religious for that matter, do not believe the world will actually end in 2012.

Stoicheion, that is complex doctrinal stuff. Some people believe that there is a new millennium that is set up while we are still on this world (and many believe that it has already been established) therefore we are living in the end times. Other people believe there will be 7 years of judgment followed by the millennium.

QuoteIts not the bible, it a South American religion, I think Aztec based on their calendar. Something to do with everything going topsy turvey and all of our technology turning on us.

Yeah, it was based on the date their massive calendar ended on. I was responding to this quote:

QuoteThere's the always-present Biblical end times, because we're sinning more than ever before (it can't get much worse than this, AMIRITE?).

There's a Catholic prophecy laid down by an early pope that goes so far as to list how many popes there will be and a minor detail of each. For the late Pope John Paul II, it was that he'd be a lion, and that was his coat of arms, or something like that. Pope Benedict is the second to last one according to the prophecy, and the Pope that comes after him, explicitly named Peter, will see the end of the world.

There's the Nostradamus stuff, but it's most of his stuff is fascinatingly ambiguous, and will be read however the reader desires, so no surprise there.

And that's about all I know of it. I'll see you in 2013, and no, this won't even phase religion at large, trust me.

Quote from: "Titan"Stoicheion, that is complex doctrinal stuff. Some people believe that there is a new millennium that is set up while we are still on this world (and many believe that it has already been established) therefore we are living in the end times. Other people believe there will be 7 years of judgment followed by the millennium.

Can you explain this Titan? I'm a bit confused with the concept of this "new millenium" . I haven't ever heard of that before.

Revelations is literally the hardest book of the Bible for Christians to get their heads around and almost every Christian you meet will have a different view on the "end times."

The two theories I am referring to here are postmillennialism and premillennialism.

Postmillennialists argue that the judgment of the world (7 years, 4 horsemen of the apocalypse, antichrist, all that fun stuff) occur after the millennium that is spoken of in Revelations 20. Some believe that the millennium is a literal  1000 years others believe that it is more along the line of thousands of years. What they agree on is that the millennium will occur or is occurring prior to the time of tribulation, or Christ's second coming. They believe that this period of Christian prosperity predates all the bad stuff that is going to happen.

Premillennialists believe the reverse. They believe that Christ will come back and after the seven years he will set up a kingdom that will last 1000 years (or around that much time) but will only be temporary.

There are actually many things about Christianity that you may not know. For instance, did you know that Heaven isn't the end reward for Christians, despite what kids are told (for simplicity sake really) and what many adults believe it is actually only a temporary place.

Quote from: "Titan"Revelations is literally the hardest book of the Bible for Christians to get their heads around and almost every Christian you meet will have a different view on the "end times."

The two theories I am referring to here are postmillennialism and premillennialism.

Postmillennialists argue that the judgment of the world (7 years, 4 horsemen of the apocalypse, antichrist, all that fun stuff) occur after the millennium that is spoken of in Revelations 20. Some believe that the millennium is a literal  1000 years others believe that it is more along the line of thousands of years. What they agree on is that the millennium will occur or is occurring prior to the time of tribulation, or Christ's second coming. They believe that this period of Christian prosperity predates all the bad stuff that is going to happen.

Premillennialists believe the reverse. They believe that Christ will come back and after the seven years he will set up a kingdom that will last 1000 years (or around that much time) but will only be temporary.

There are actually many things about Christianity that you may not know. For instance, did you know that Heaven isn't the end reward for Christians, despite what kids are told (for simplicity sake really) and what many adults believe it is actually only a temporary place.

Right, New Jerusalem.  Rev was always my favorite book.  Though it is a bit cryptic, it's also the most epic and entertaining to read.  Most of the rest of the New Testament (brace for criticism) always felt a little redundant.  The same messages repeated umpteen times in slightly different ways.  Arguably the stuff that's repeated is of greater importance, but I was always more of a reveler in the power of almighty God.  My favorite verse is Rev 1:8, which says something to the extent of "I am the Alpha and Omega, sayeth the Lord, that which Was, which Is, and which is forever to come, the Almighty."  NKJ, of course.   It's a much more potent wording of power than the poetic "I Am."  

Also, just as a reference, I never dared to call myself pre or postmillennialist.  No pretrip or postrip or rapture shennanigans.  No guesses as when the world would end.  I just read the thing and always said it'd happen how it was supposed to happen when it happened.  And it always amazed me when my friends would tell me they were sure the end time were near.  I'd tell them of astronomical happenings which fascinated me, expected return times for long period comets or the Sol System around the Milky, and such stunning expanses of time would be discarded instantly because it would all never come to pass.  Jesus was coming back tomorrow.   I'd ask how they could know the return would happen before the passage of 50,000 or 100,000 years, as people in the year 500 were probably sure it was going to happen before the year 1000, but I always got the reply that they just knew.  Don't get me wrong, I understand that if the end is an accepted, guaranteed point in time, then the longer the slice of time you provide, the more likely it is that the end will fall inside it, but that's still not a guarantee and I always took it a better standard not to impose time limits on one's god, as I had observed early on they tended to fail.

Meh, I think I've over-posted again.

QuoteArguably the stuff that's repeated is of greater importance, but I was always more of a reveler in the power of almighty God. My favorite verse is Rev 1:8, which says something to the extent of "I am the Alpha and Omega, sayeth the Lord, that which Was, which Is, and which is forever to come, the Almighty." NKJ, of course. It's a much more potent wording of power than the poetic "I Am."

I like the unity of time but I also like the poetic description of Christ in Revelations...quite powerfully terrifying image (not strictly in a bad way).

QuoteAlso, just as a reference, I never dared to call myself pre or postmillennialist. No pretrip or postrip or rapture shennanigans. No guesses as when the world would end. I just read the thing and always said it'd happen how it was supposed to happen when it happened.

Yeah, same here, there is a growing camp that agrees with this analysis of it.

QuoteAnd it always amazed me when my friends would tell me they were sure the end time were near.

I always wanted to be near people who gave a date because if they are giving away their stuff I think I could pick up a few nice things  

Quote from: "Titan"I always wanted to be near people who gave a date because if they are giving away their stuff I think I could pick up a few nice things  :D

alright so if Heaven is only temporary. What is supposed to happen after it ends?

I think I found the proof...

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(Click picture for fullsize.)

Quote from: "Stoicheion"alright so if Heaven is only temporary. What is supposed to happen after it ends?

Freeze tag?

Man, for a bunch of atheists, y'all sure talk about religion a lot.

Quote from: "Wraitchel"Man, for a bunch of atheists, y'all sure talk about religion a lot. :D

2012 is such BS.

"Were a million years overdue for a cosmic collision!"

Yeah, and we HAVE been for a MILLION YEARS....

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"

Quote from: "Wraitchel"Man, for a bunch of atheists, y'all sure talk about religion a lot. :D

Nice, lol

Quotealright so if Heaven is only temporary. What is supposed to happen after it ends?

New Earth... I would go into it further but I don't want to drag you into a discussion of something you aren't that interested in  

New Earth? What will be different? aka, why would reality ever be anything other than what it is?

Let me guess, "this" is bad and "that" is evil so those things "won't be in new earth" or whatever. New earth will adhere to the will of god, unlike the current earth...   and lions will lay with lambs, breaking the most basic of evolutionary truths...

Why did you even ask if you were going to mock it?

Quote from: "Titan"Why did you even ask if you were going to mock it?

I've just heard it all before and it actually offends me, on behalf of science. The notion that there will be a new, better earth, is a failure to understand why this earth is the way it is. The typical, over-optimistic, over-idealistic, "lion and the lamb" view is to suggest that this world is failing to adhere to some intended reality. It's based on nothing more than wishful thinking and a misunderstanding of the natural world.

"No doubt, the universe is unfolding as it should"

The idea of a new earth has NOTHING to do with the way this earth is. In fact a rejection of the importance of this world is a theory called neo-Gnosticism which is a deviation from Christianity.

Do you doubt that there are things that ARE wrong with this world? How is an eschatology a proposition to avoid dealing with this world? The two are not mutually exclusive unless you become a utopianist.

As for Christians being "over-optimist" and "over-idealistic" I find this statement rather ridiculous concerning the fact that Christians are the ones who are most actively risking their lives trying to change the world. Furthermore, it is only wishful thinking if it's untrue or likely to be untrue which is a disregard for the evidence.

Again, there is nothing in an eschatological view that makes it counter-productive to an understanding of the natural world.

Titan, I apologize for addressing a preconceived notion of this new earth you mention.

I have been strongly fed an image of a christian-rooted new earth, so that is what I was sort of speaking to. I constantly face people who feel that god had a very set path for this earth, and that man screwed it up, (the bible pushes this notion as well). The resultant conclusion that this earth has deviated from some sort of plan that will one day be enforced is what really offends me. I think you can appreciate the true reason of my frustrations however: defeatism. So many people have a desire for god to come down and burn the wicked, end evil, etc so they simply wait for it to happen.

YES, there are things that are very wrong in this world, but all of these conditions exist from a very specific reason and there is no kingdom coming that will fix them. poverty, disease, famine all have clear causes and we can and should fix them.

"Again, there is nothing in an eschatological view that makes it counter-productive to an understanding of the natural world."

I still feel the entire notion of "there's another world coming/god's going to fix this" is a defeatist, denial mentality. We're simply at a point in our evolution where "morality" is in the forefront of our minds, and the cruel natural world "simply can't be so".

Again, it is only a defeatist mentality if people believe that the only thing that matters is the after-life. If that was the case then why wouldn't God want us to commit suicide as soon as we believed? Because this world matters, or it should matter, to a Christian. We are caretakers and God says that the world is good (which is a stark contrast to so many other religions where the world is created out of the slaying of an evil monster or some such thing).

okay okay calm down guys.

Titan, i'm very interested; go ahead and take the time to explain in depth what the New Earth is supposed to be, and support your ideas por favor. I'd also love it if you provided us lines from the Bible.

Let me do that tomorrow, it will take a little while to pull together the resources and I'll be honest, I don't have them off the top of my head : /

Quote from: "Titan"Let me do that tomorrow, it will take a little while to pull together the resources and I'll be honest, I don't have them off the top of my head : /

no prob, take your time. I'm sure it'll be worth it

My parents and friends have the defeatist, divisive mindset, hoping that god will one day make everything the way it was "supposed to be", which to me is just offensive lol. There is nothing in the universe that says reality has to cater to our contentions. The only reason there is so much controversy at this instant is that we are self aware and apparently unsatisfied.

I see no reason why life won't simply continue the same way it has for billions of years, constantly shifting form, rubbing elbows with itself, wrenching out new levels of complexity, eventually dying out from either its own collapse or some other catastrophic end (death of the sun, should life be so resilient!).

Humanity WILL end, which is a scary thought... No one knows how, but life can't go on forever  

PS - I had a horrible dream last night. Within all of 90 seconds, my dream went from a normal day to the apocalypse. There was a huge disaster with flames and explosions and I was on a helicopter that was crashing to the ground. In my dream I experienced a sensation of the whole world ending, all in one instant. As I looked down at the oncoming ground, I was actually accepting the fact that "this is how it all ends".... It was the scariest feeling I have ever experienced.

I think Christians and other end of days believers would just go on and act like nothing happened, like they never truly believed it in the first place. Some would also try to say that we just got the day wrong, and as mere mortals were bound to get the day wrong. Others would blame it on nonbelievers,stating that it was their disbelief that caused god to turn his back on us, or some crap like that. They basically would cover it all up in some fashion, just like they do with everything that might prove their belief system wrong. It's happened before, and will most definitely happen again.