Happy Atheist Forum

First time poster, so be gentle I've been playing with this paradox for a while and I'd like to get the board's opinion/input on it.

Based on Catholic belief, can we assume that:
- God is omnipotent, meaning he knows all; past, present and future.
- If you do not accept Jesus/God in your life, you will end up in hell.
(if these 'facts' only apply to a smaller branch of Christianity, please correct me)

My argument:
If God is all knowing, he will know before we're born if we will accept Jesus as our savior.  With that, he will also know which ones of us will *not*.  If you do not accept Jesus, you will end up going to hell.  Given those statements, why would God let us come down to earth (I'm assuming we come from heaven before we're born) knowing full-well that some of us will end up in hell?

Metaphorically speaking, why would I let my children travel from our log cabin through the woods and into the city, knowing full-well (being all-knowing, remember?) that little Johnny and little Samantha will be eaten by wolves?  

I don't think that the God-given freedom of choice applies here; sure we have choice, but if you know *everything* that will happen, it is, in effect, set in stone on your end.

Thoughts?  Do my prerequisites or argument need modification?  Is it a valid argument against this particular religious belief?

Hey TheGerman,

This is a profound question, one that I am not really qualified to answer but I will give it my best shot.

God, from a Christian and Catholic perspective, wants everyone to go to heaven but he wants people to CHOOSE to follow him. Heaven is actually worse than hell if you don't believe in God, due to the principle of eternal, infinite shame and resentment.

If God only created people who were going to believe in him he would essentially be negating free will. This is an incredibly complex subject but I'm going to persevere and try to give it a better answer. The reason God would be negating free will is because essentially you are only granted life if you are going to choose him. It would be like someone bringing you to a bar when you don't have any money and saying "You can choose whichever beer you want but I'm only going to pay for it if you purchase this one." Naturally, you have no choice because the situation would necessitate that you would pick the beer that is to be paid for. Christians believe that God reaches out to everyone and therefore he loves and tries to reach those who ultimately don't want to believe in him, regardless of the fact that he knows they are going to defy Him.

I hope this helped a little.

So ...

* The lifelong murdering rapist who repents just before he dies and believes wholly in Jesus and everything he stands will go to Heaven and ...
* The altruistic atheist who spends his entire life right up until death helping others in whatever way he can goes to Hell

... that about right?

Kyu

Quote from: "Titan"Hey TheGerman,

This is a profound question, one that I am not really qualified to answer but I will give it my best shot.

God, from a Christian and Catholic perspective, wants everyone to go to heaven but he wants people to CHOOSE to follow him. Heaven is actually worse than hell if you don't believe in God, due to the principle of eternal, infinite shame and resentment.

If God only created people who were going to believe in him he would essentially be negating free will. This is an incredibly complex subject but I'm going to persevere and try to give it a better answer. The reason God would be negating free will is because essentially you are only granted life if you are going to choose him. It would be like someone bringing you to a bar when you don't have any money and saying "You can choose whichever beer you want but I'm only going to pay for it if you purchase this one." Naturally, you have no choice because the situation would necessitate that you would pick the beer that is to be paid for. Christians believe that God reaches out to everyone and therefore he loves and tries to reach those who ultimately don't want to believe in him, regardless of the fact that he knows they are going to defy Him.

I hope this helped a little.

You cannot choose to believe in God as beliefs are not subject to will. For example, you wake up in the morning and put on a blue shirt. You believe your shirt is blue. If walk up to you and say, "Your shirt is red," you will not truly believe you are wearing a red shirt. However if everyone else says your shirt is red you may conform to fit in and say, "Yup, I have a red shirt. Hallelujah! I always preferred red over blue."

The word belief is a noun. Normally volitions are verbs. Therefore God does not want to see if you will choose him, but rather damn people like me to hell for something out of our control. Or he just doesn't exist which makes a lot more sense.

Quote from: "Titan"Hey TheGerman,

God, from a Christian and Catholic perspective, wants everyone to go to heaven but he wants people to CHOOSE to follow him. Heaven is actually worse than hell if you don't believe in God, due to the principle of eternal, infinite shame and resentment.

If God only created people who were going to believe in him he would essentially be negating free will.

....

I agree with your logic Titan, but I'm not sure if it addresses the conflict that The German was pointing out.

Assumptions:
 God knows everything with 100% certainty and accuracy (past, present, future).
 God has enough power to make everything.
 God created the beginnings of humanity.
 God is responsible for all human beings (past, present, future).
 God created human being with free choice.

----
Now if God knows all and created everything with the plan that the humans he created would have the free will to choose (to follow God, believe in God, etc) then how would a God that knows how all future events (ie. the choices that us humans will make) be able to create a situation of "free will"?  

It seems to me that as soon as God put a human being in a situation where, logically, the human SHOULD be able to have to make a choice of his/her own free will at the same time God would already know the outcome of the situation (due to omnipotence.)  So, logically, human beings wouldn't really have a choice because as soon as a human being is involved in an event, the outcome is already set in stone (because God already knows the outcome) before the human being gets far enough along into the event to witness the outcome of the human being's actions/choices.

Quote* The lifelong murdering rapist who repents just before he dies and believes wholly in Jesus and everything he stands will go to Heaven and ...
* The altruistic atheist who spends his entire life right up until death helping others in whatever way he can goes to Hell

Yep, but it gives you the wrong impression and I would like to delve into this more. It has to do with God reaching out so far and accepting us on terms such as the first one. But the second is a different matter, why would a person who rejected God want to spend eternity reminded of that?

QuoteTherefore God does not want to see if you will choose him, but rather damn people like me to hell for something out of our control. Or he just doesn't exist which makes a lot more sense.

The choice is applicable because you can know that God exists but still choose to reject him. The terms of salvation are rejection or acceptance, not acknowledgment of presence alone. Are you suggesting that it is physically impossible for you to believe in God? I'm slightly confused by your claims, sophus.

QuoteNow if God knows all and created everything with the plan that the humans he created would have the free will to choose (to follow God, believe in God, etc) then how would a God that knows how all future events (ie. the choices that us humans will make) be able to create a situation of "free will"?

Because he knows what you are going to choose. If you had chosen B INSTEAD of A that would be the future God knows. The future is dependent on your choice, God simply knows what you are going to choose.

Well we're not talking physics, but yes it is impossible for some to truly believe in a God. Now if you do believe in him and reject him that's another issue. I am not a God hating, unspiritual theist. I am an atheist. If I believed there were a God to reject then maybe I would not do so. But you cannot reject what you don't know.

So if he were real then God made me, knowing full well that I am not cannot ever even believe he exists. You say if I accept him I'll get a ticket to heaven but in the Bible it says he wants all of your heart. How can I follow something I know is lie. Not think. Keep in mind we can know things for certain and still be wrong (although I never am ).


Here's a few questions. Why would God bother to make us with freewill in order for it to please him? Why would he even desire pleasure? Pain pursues pleasures so how can he in his complete goodness and perfection be unsatisfied? He knows no restraints so why would not the mere thought and knowledge of what creating us would do bring him that pleasure?.... if in fact he lives in all past, present and future. This all suggests he has/had a need. Perfection does not covet. Perfection is complete satisfaction and joy.

QuoteWell we're not talking physics, but yes it is impossible for some to truly believe in a God. Now if you do believe in him and reject him that's another issue. I am not a God hating, unspiritual theist. I am an atheist. If I believed there were a God to reject then maybe I would not do so. But you cannot reject what you don't know.

It is impossible for someone to truly believe in a God? Explain, a massive amount of people are going to disagree with you.
You can reject the concept of a God and instead embrace a belief in the self as the locus of existence.

QuoteSo if he were real then God made me, knowing full well that I am not cannot ever even believe he exists.

He allowed you the option to choose him. How would only making people who would believe in him be an exercise in creating free will?

QuoteYou say if I accept him I'll get a ticket to heaven but in the Bible it says he wants all of your heart. How can I follow something I know is lie. Not think. Keep in mind we can know things for certain and still be wrong (although I never am ).

I'll explain this if you tell me how you can accept him and believe he exists if you "know" he is a lie and if you tell me how you can "know" there is no God without being a god yourself?

QuoteWhy would God bother to make us with freewill in order for it to please him? Why would he even desire pleasure?

Great questions.
God doesn't need pleasure, but he is perfect AND selfless and wants others to be able to experience joy in him, even if that means that some ultimately reject him.

QuotePain pursues pleasures so how can he in his complete goodness and perfection be unsatisfied?

He can be perfect and be displeased with something, what are you suggesting he is unsatisfied with?

QuoteHe knows no restraints so why would not the mere thought and knowledge of what creating us would do bring him that pleasure?

Because it isn't just about him.

QuoteThis all suggests he has/had a need. Perfection does not covet. Perfection is complete satisfaction and joy.

Have you ever heard the term righteous jealousy?

In these kind of discussions I always wonder about the following contradiction. Whenever someone comes up with a difficult question, like f.i. why does God not stop this or why doesn't he do that then we normally can expect the theistic reply that "God works in mysterious ways" or "God has his own plan" etc. But when it comes to refuting atheists about topics like morality or free will then theists always know precisely what God thinks and how he operates.  Like in:

Quote

QuoteSo if he were real then God made me, knowing full well that I am not cannot ever even believe he exists.

He allowed you the option to choose him. How would only making people who would believe in him be an exercise in creating free will?

To me that scores very high in the BS department. How on Earth do theists come to such a conclusion? If God is such a mystery (or esoteric, like living outside space and time  ) then there is no way that we normal beings can even have a single clue about his wishes, his desires and his plan for mankind. It might well be that he really doesn't give a sh#t about his creations or that he hates grovelers and people that sprout nonsense in his name

Quote from: "Titan"

Quote* The lifelong murdering rapist who repents just before he dies and believes wholly in Jesus and everything he stands will go to Heaven and ...
* The altruistic atheist who spends his entire life right up until death helping others in whatever way he can goes to Hell

Yep, but it gives you the wrong impression and I would like to delve into this more. It has to do with God reaching out so far and accepting us on terms such as the first one. But the second is a different matter, why would a person who rejected God want to spend eternity reminded of that?

No ...it pretty much demonstrates that your god *is* an ego-maniacal bastard that I wouldn't voluntarily bend a knee to even if the vicious f*** was real!

Kyu

Quote from: "Kyuuketsuki"So ...

* The lifelong murdering rapist who repents just before he dies and believes wholly in Jesus and everything he stands will go to Heaven and ...
* The altruistic atheist who spends his entire life right up until death helping others in whatever way he can goes to Hell

... that about right?

Kyu

I posed basically the same question to a christian girl i know and her answer was quite plainly, 'Yes'....

Although she was quick to point out that no real christian would ever do anything nasty like that...

Sheesh.

QuoteWhenever someone comes up with a difficult question, like f.i. why does God not stop this or why doesn't he do that then we normally can expect the theistic reply that "God works in mysterious ways" or "God has his own plan" etc. But when it comes to refuting atheists about topics like morality or free will then theists always know precisely what God thinks and how he operates.

It's because there are distinctions to be made. There are clear ones where we can understand the will of God and there are ones where we have to trust.

QuoteTo me that scores very high in the BS department. How on Earth do theists come to such a conclusion? If God is such a mystery (or esoteric, like living outside space and time ) then there is no way that we normal beings can even have a single clue about his wishes, his desires and his plan for mankind.

How do you come to that conclusion? You would have to say the same thing about a child and their parents wishes. That because a child doesn't know why a parent told them not to touch the red top of the stop doesn't mean that they don't know why the parent doesn't want them to hit their brother. Sometimes parents have told their kids explicitly why the child shouldn't do one thing and simply said "don't do this" about another thing. So please, if you would, explain how you can justify this in relation to a child knowing the will of the parent. By your conception a small child can either a) always know why the parent made the decision they did or b) never know. Which is it?

Kyu

QuoteNo ...it pretty much demonstrates that your god *is* an ego-maniacal bastard that I wouldn't voluntarily bend a knee to even if the vicious f*** was real!

LOL...I knew it would give you the wrong impression. The amazing thing is that as rational as you claim to be you aren't even open-minded enough to listen to an answer. You've already come to a conclusion and have constructed some pretty nice walls of anger and ignorance.

Quote from: "Titan"

QuoteNo ...it pretty much demonstrates that your god *is* an ego-maniacal bastard that I wouldn't voluntarily bend a knee to even if the vicious f*** was real!

LOL...I knew it would give you the wrong impression. The amazing thing is that as rational as you claim to be you aren't even open-minded enough to listen to an answer. You've already come to a conclusion and have constructed some pretty nice walls of anger and ignorance.

Oh trust me, just because I swear doesn't mean I'm angry ... merely utterly contemptuous of the kind of reasoning I see theists give.

Being open-minded doesn't mean I have to accept every crap argument as having the same value as reasoned ones:
"There's this thing called being so open-minded your brains drop out." Richard Dawkins

Also, that you keep coming back at me demonstrates I am nowhere near as ignorant as you'd like to believe I am

Kyu

Quote from: "Titan"It is impossible for someone to truly believe in a God? Explain, a massive amount of people are going to disagree with you.
You can reject the concept of a God and instead embrace a belief in the self as the locus of existence.

If you would have read or remembered my previous post you would have found your answer but I'll post it again:

"You cannot choose to believe in God as beliefs are not subject to will. For example, you wake up in the morning and put on a blue shirt. You believe your shirt is blue. If walk up to you and say, "Your shirt is red," you will not truly believe you are wearing a red shirt. However if everyone else says your shirt is red you may conform to fit in and say, "Yup, I have a red shirt. Hallelujah! I always preferred red over blue anyways."

The word belief is a noun. Normally volitions are verbs."

Your mind can either cognitively understand something or not. You're not rejecting anything.

QuoteHe allowed you the option to choose him. How would only making people who would believe in him be an exercise in creating free will?

No he allowed me the option to choose to follow him if I believe he exists. But since I was created a person who needs evidence for his existence, and all the evidence I have found if aginst his existence, I do not belive he exists. Hence the reason I do not choose to follow him. Tell me, can you, Titan, choose to believe in Santa Claus? Assuming your answer is no then I would imagine the reason why is because too much evidence goes against it. However you should probably choose to follow Santa Claus beause if you don't you might get coal this year.

QuoteI'll explain this if you tell me how you can accept him and believe he exists if you "know" he is a lie and if you tell me how you can "know" there is no God without being a god yourself?

My crux is that it is excpected of me, by Christians, to accept him even though I do not believe he exisits. That belief can never change unless evidence is presented. If you have evidence that is not a tiresome cliche, fire away! I'm all ears.

QuoteGreat questions.
God doesn't need pleasure, but he is perfect AND selfless and wants others to be able to experience joy in him, even if that means that some ultimately reject him.

Then why create us at all? Normally joy is recieved by one who gives it.

QuoteHe can be perfect and be displeased with something, what are you suggesting he is unsatisfied with?

Nope. Even among humans it is admirable and considered mature to not desire. After all that is where true peace comes from. So he wasn't satisfied being alone therefore he needed us. How is god still a god when he is needy?

QuoteBecause it isn't just about him.

Considering that the Bible says our purpose is to glorify him, I would say that it is.

QuoteHave you ever heard the term righteous jealousy?

Yes, and jealousy and justice cannot co-exist with love. Unconditional love values mercy over justice. It is impossible for something to be both. Aside from that he is sinning according to his book.

Quote from: "Titan"

QuoteWhenever someone comes up with a difficult question, like f.i. why does God not stop this or why doesn't he do that then we normally can expect the theistic reply that "God works in mysterious ways" or "God has his own plan" etc. But when it comes to refuting atheists about topics like morality or free will then theists always know precisely what God thinks and how he operates.

It's because there are distinctions to be made. There are clear ones where we can understand the will of God and there are ones where we have to trust.

Which distinctions are you talking about? For those questions for which theists can find an "appropriate" text in the Bible and those questions which  cannot be answered without sounding like a fool? No wonder that I sometimes get the impression that a discussion with a theists is like trying to catch a slippery eel with greased hands  :crazy:) then there is no way that we normal beings can even have a single clue about his wishes, his desires and his plan for mankind.[/quote]
How do you come to that conclusion? You would have to say the same thing about a child and their parents wishes. That because a child doesn't know why a parent told them not to touch the red top of the stop doesn't mean that they don't know why the parent doesn't want them to hit their brother. Sometimes parents have told their kids explicitly why the child shouldn't do one thing and simply said "don't do this" about another thing. So please, if you would, explain how you can justify this in relation to a child knowing the will of the parent. By your conception a small child can either a) always know why the parent made the decision they did or b) never know. Which is it?[/quote]
When you are a grown up you understand why some of the parents rules made any sense and why others don't. For those ones you don't understand and bother you,  you could always ask your parents for an explanation. You may not like their replies, but at least you get some answers and you may respect them for what they are. God on the other hand is a vague, imaginary and mysterious being that doesn't even respect the "moral" codes of his "own" Bible. He is therefore not the right person to pose any of his laws on us and is definitively not a good parent. In the OT he had a physical presence that annoyed a lot of people (like flooding the Earth, granting his people the right to exterminate other tribes just because they needed more land, sending plagues to Egypt for no apparent reasons, etc. etc.). In the NT he is no longer there, but he had sent his son here so that he could be tortured and killed. That truly makes him a wonderful father figure  :brick:  that is to me!

Tom62

QuoteWhich distinctions are you talking about? For those questions for which theists can find an "appropriate" text in the Bible and those questions which cannot be answered without sounding like a fool? No wonder that I sometimes get the impression that a discussion with a theists is like trying to catch a slippery eel with greased hands :( . After that he just disappeared.

It isn't a decision out of the standpoint of "What the hell, I think I'll kill myself today" it is actually a forced action as we can discuss if you wish to learn what you are arguing against.

QuoteAfter that he just disappeared. No trace of him to see anywhere for more than 2000 years, no clues that he'd even been here in he first place, no logical explanation that he even could exist, etc.

Incorrect, there have been evidences all around the world, some people just are unwilling to accept the idea of a miracle when they hear it.

QuoteGod now lives outside space and time (how convenient) instead of floating aimlessly around on a cloud in the "good" old OT times and he has a direct line with the Republican Party of the US of A. How convincing :)

I keep coming back at you because I want to believe that you will listen to logic, reason and evidence.

Quote from: "Titan"I used the word "believe" which is a verb. So what is your point? Yes our original perceptions are based on what we can sense but experience tells us that some of our perceptions may be wrong. Therefore we have to have faith for just about everything we hold on to as reality.

To see a mirage in the desert is an experience but it doesn't mean it is real. Having been a Christian I know the experience. But it can all be explained psychologically. You have yet to prove that beliefs are a choice. Can you simply wake up one day and decide that two plus two equals four if you have no logical evidence to support this theory? Fresh evidence is the only thing that can genuinely alter a belief.

The only choice I can make is faking my way through Christianity, or any other religion, by intentionally lying to myself. But I doubt this would impress a god.

On a side note, I think the way it is being used in our context "believe" is interchangeable with "faith." Where as a belief does not necessarily require a blind faith.

QuoteMany many many people would disagree with you. I want to reference a miracle that took place in one of our closest friends lives but I doubt you would believe it. My point is that you can be offered all the evidence in the world and still be blind to it. Shutting yourself off from evidence doesn't disprove his existence, it serves only to prove your own self-centrism.

Sure many people would disagree with me. But most people belong to a religion of some sort and obviously I think their wrong. The truth is still the truth regardless of how many people believe in it. Their is no evidence for god to deny. A supernatural miracle would have to be seen in order to believe.

QuoteActually, this doesn't apply in the slightest. I don't get coal each year even though I don't believe in Santa, I don't get gifts every year from some unnamed source. Therefore the causal effects of the existence of Santa are disproven. This is not the case with God. There are evidences and people from all walks of life (including astrophysics) are coming to the conclusion that there has to be a God.

All you're doing is proving my point. You see how silly it is to believe in something with no support? Consequently, they are much easier to disprove. I disagree with everything that theist scientist have to say about an intelligent creator needed for us to exist but that's another argument.

QuoteFine, one of our family friends, Mrs. Gymerik, grew up in Aceh, Indonesia. Around her collegiate years (she was a believer) she felt a calling to go to an English speaking international school in Singapore despite the fact that she could not speak a word of English. She was accepted into the school (this was something like...28 years ago) and couldn't communicate with anyone and couldn't speak the language. One night, in the midst of her tears, she prayed that God would give her a grasp of the language. The next day she was able to fluently communicate with her roommate, in English. Her family, friends and roommate will attest that she never spent a day learning the language and that the fluency came instantaneously. There is one example...I have more from Indonesia alone.

Like I said, I would have to see it, but I dare say it is either a lie, an exaggeration or a hallucination. But let's say for a moment it's true. How do you know it was Yahweh? Maybe it was Allah. Maybe it was a Mayan god. Perhaps it wasn't a god at all but rather The Secret.

QuoteWait, joy is received by the person who gives the joy to someone else? Can you please explain what you are trying to say here.

I am a little surprised at this. Do you not feel joy when you make someone else happy? Do you have children? If so, do you not feel a priceless sensation when you give a gift to them and their face lights up? I have always found that when you do something to make someone happy that very emotion is returned to you by that act alone.

QuoteLOL, you apparently did not listen to me. He is not creating man out of a need he has, there is no desire that must be satisfied, only a selflessness that is present in his perfection.

That is one element yes, but not the entirety of it. God isn't acting for himself, he is also acting out of a love for mankind. Again, selflessness.

No I saw you write that he has no need. However there is no support at all for this other than maybe a Bible reference whereas mine has a logical equation for why he does indeed have a need.

Either way this self destructs. If worshiping what he stands for is more important than worshiping him then I, an atheist who deeply believes in love, would not be damned to hell for dedicating my life to it.

Selflessness doesn't demand love in return for love. Love does not play mans all too common game of quid pro quo. If you read the Bible and replaced the word God with a human name, "Michael." You would think Michael is a wretched person.

QuoteI find it fascinating that a person from an atheistic perspective is able to make such absolute statements concerning justice, mercy and sin. Please tell me how you are able to tell a belief system how such terms work from your perspective.

I have my own personal beliefs of right and wrong but also recognize that while they are important among humans the universe is neutral on these moral affairs. The reason I may show such confidence in my definitions of love and etc is due to well thought out philosophies. I encourage you to read "The Art of Loving" by Erich Fromm. He does a wonderful job of explaining something thought to be so complex. From reading it I have noticed that there are men who love greater than God does. How can my love exceed that of an all loving, supernatural beings? Simple. Only one of us is capable of love because only one of us exists.

Quote from: "Sophus"

Quote from: "Titan"I used the word "believe" which is a verb. So what is your point? Yes our original perceptions are based on what we can sense but experience tells us that some of our perceptions may be wrong. Therefore we have to have faith for just about everything we hold on to as reality.

To see a mirage in the desert is an experience but it doesn't mean it is real. Having been a Christian I know the experience. But it can all be explained psychologically. You have yet to prove that beliefs are a choice. Can you simply wake up one day and decide that two plus two equals four if you have no logical evidence to support this theory? Fresh evidence is the only thing that can genuinely alter a belief.

The only choice I can make is faking my way through Christianity, or any other religion, by intentionally lying to myself. But I doubt this would impress a god.

You are insinuating that there is no logical evidence, which is simply not true. You can choose to believe whatever you want, FSM, Buddhism, 2 + 2 = 12 but there are beliefs that are more rational then others...ones that answer more with less assumptions and stand up to reasoning better.

Quote

QuoteMany many many people would disagree with you. I want to reference a miracle that took place in one of our closest friends lives but I doubt you would believe it. My point is that you can be offered all the evidence in the world and still be blind to it. Shutting yourself off from evidence doesn't disprove his existence, it serves only to prove your own self-centrism.

Sure many people would disagree with me. But most people belong to a religion of some sort and obviously I think their wrong. The truth is still the truth regardless of how many people believe in it. Their is no evidence for god to deny. A supernatural miracle would have to be seen in order to believe.

By you personally? You wouldn't take anyone else at their word?

Quote

QuoteActually, this doesn't apply in the slightest. I don't get coal each year even though I don't believe in Santa, I don't get gifts every year from some unnamed source. Therefore the causal effects of the existence of Santa are disproven. This is not the case with God. There are evidences and people from all walks of life (including astrophysics) are coming to the conclusion that there has to be a God.

All you're doing is proving my point. You see how silly it is to believe in something with no support? Consequently, they are much easier to disprove. I disagree with everything that theist scientist have to say about an intelligent creator needed for us to exist but that's another argument.

As I have said repeatedly, there is support. Logical, empirical, philosophical, etc. Furthermore, you didn't read what I said because I told you that the basic causal effects of Santa have been disproven therefore Santa is disproven. This is not the case with God.

Quote

QuoteFine, one of our family friends, Mrs. Gymerik, grew up in Aceh, Indonesia. Around her collegiate years (she was a believer) she felt a calling to go to an English speaking international school in Singapore despite the fact that she could not speak a word of English. She was accepted into the school (this was something like...28 years ago) and couldn't communicate with anyone and couldn't speak the language. One night, in the midst of her tears, she prayed that God would give her a grasp of the language. The next day she was able to fluently communicate with her roommate, in English. Her family, friends and roommate will attest that she never spent a day learning the language and that the fluency came instantaneously. There is one example...I have more from Indonesia alone.

Like I said, I would have to see it, but I dare say it is either a lie, an exaggeration or a hallucination. But let's say for a moment it's true. How do you know it was Yahweh? Maybe it was Allah. Maybe it was a Mayan god. Perhaps it wasn't a god at all but rather The Secret.

So Allah rewarded an infidel? The Mayan gods drew her away from them? The Secret did it for no purpose? What you are saying is rather nonsensical. Secondly, there are people who support her testimony. Again, roommates, friends and family. But explain how she would learn English in an instant through a hallucination? And why would she attribute hard work to something miraculous? Your reasoning is very confusing.

Quote

QuoteWait, joy is received by the person who gives the joy to someone else? Can you please explain what you are trying to say here.

I am a little surprised at this. Do you not feel joy when you make someone else happy? Do you have children? If so, do you not feel a priceless sensation when you give a gift to them and their face lights up? I have always found that when you do something to make someone happy that very emotion is returned to you by that act alone.

Receiving joy is different from needing the specific joy from a specific instant. Receiving pleasure doesn't present a flaw in someone.

Quote

QuoteLOL, you apparently did not listen to me. He is not creating man out of a need he has, there is no desire that must be satisfied, only a selflessness that is present in his perfection.

That is one element yes, but not the entirety of it. God isn't acting for himself, he is also acting out of a love for mankind. Again, selflessness.

No I saw you write that he has no need. However there is no support at all for this other than maybe a Bible reference whereas mine has a logical equation for why he does indeed have a need.

Either way this self destructs. If worshiping what he stands for is more important than worshiping him then I, an atheist who deeply believes in love, would not be damned to hell for dedicating my life to it.

I am going to ask someone if I can paste a part of a PM I sent them...Essentially all of salvation and the afterlife comes down to one question: Who is your life centered on? If it is about yourself then you create your destiny...I'll explain this further.

QuoteSelflessness doesn't demand love in return for love. Love does not play mans all too common game of quid pro quo. If you read the Bible and replaced the word God with a human name, "Michael." You would think Michael is a wretched person.

Only because Michael would be a person. Michael wouldn't have created everything and placed value on it. God is the one who assigns value therefore everything looks to God for purpose. God grants gifts, we do not earn them.

Quote

QuoteI find it fascinating that a person from an atheistic perspective is able to make such absolute statements concerning justice, mercy and sin. Please tell me how you are able to tell a belief system how such terms work from your perspective.

I have my own personal beliefs of right and wrong but also recognize that while they are important among humans the universe is neutral on these moral affairs. The reason I may show such confidence in my definitions of love and etc is due to well thought out philosophies. I encourage you to read "The Art of Loving" by Erich Fromm. He does a wonderful job of explaining something thought to be so complex. From reading it I have noticed that there are men who love greater than God does. How can my love exceed that of an all loving, supernatural beings? Simple. Only one of us is capable of love because only one of us exists.

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What type of love is greater than sacrificial love for someone who belongs to you but chose to deny you?

Quote from: "Titan"You are insinuating that there is no logical evidence, which is simply not true. You can choose to believe whatever you want, FSM, Buddhism, 2 + 2 = 12 but there are beliefs that are more rational then others...ones that answer more with less assumptions and stand up to reasoning better.

Everything that Christians claim to be evidence of God is nothing more than a humorously, chimerical justification for why their God just might possibly exist. Aside from believing that even those can be answered there is no overwhelming evidence for it as there is against it.

Let's take this common theist argument: The theory that the universe is made just right for life that it must have a creator. But we don't even know what our universe is. We know it is expanding. We have a theory of its shape. But we cannot see beyond it. If there are billions if not trillions of of stars and planets in our universe and there are building blocks of the universe called galaxies that contain those stars and planets.... how do we know there isn't something that contains universes? Or something that contains them?  What is also likely is that there is more life in our own universe. How would they ever hear the gospel?

So... we do not know how many universes there are. It is thought that the shape of our universe is like that of a folded piece of paper. Suggesting that universes are stacked on top of each other and wormholes would lead into parallel universes. Who knows how many universes there are and how odd it is for its circumstances to support life? We cannot not because we have but only one universe to judge from. You cannot compare apples to oranges when you have never seen an orange. Douglas Adams compared such thinkers to an intelligent puddle of water. Adams said "the puddle is certain that the hole in the ground he occupies must have been designed specifically for him because it fits him so well. The puddle exists under the sun until he has entirely evaporated."

QuoteBy you personally? You wouldn't take anyone else at their word?

Of course not. I like to think and judge for myself and not have someone dump their beliefs into my brain. If I took your word for it then I would also have to take the Muslims word... and the Hindus, and so on... it would never end. Why do you reject their word? Because they have no evidence.

QuoteAs I have said repeatedly, there is support. Logical, empirical, philosophical, etc. Furthermore, you didn't read what I said because I told you that the basic causal effects of Santa have been disproven therefore Santa is disproven. This is not the case with God.

That is my point. There is just as much evidence for God as there is for Santa Claus.

QuoteSo Allah rewarded an infidel? The Mayan gods drew her away from them? The Secret did it for no purpose? What you are saying is rather nonsensical. Secondly, there are people who support her testimony. Again, roommates, friends and family. But explain how she would learn English in an instant through a hallucination? And why would she attribute hard work to something miraculous? Your reasoning is very confusing.

Obviously Yahweh answers Muslims prayers when they claim their prayers have been answered. Why couldn't it work the other way around? The truth is every faith proclaims miracles and answered prayers. So whoever this god character is it apparently doesn't matter which version of him you believe in so long as you pray. This just goes to show that things just happen. It's a 50/50 shot at whether or not you'll get what you want in life.

QuoteReceiving joy is different from needing the specific joy from a specific instant. Receiving pleasure doesn't present a flaw in someone.

Of course receiving it does not. But needing to receive it in order to be satisfied does. This disproves his omnipotence and perfection. He was flawed in needing joy. And he was not powerful enough to create an alternative route to obtain it.

QuoteI am going to ask someone if I can paste a part of a PM I sent them...Essentially all of salvation and the afterlife comes down to one question: Who is your life centered on? If it is about yourself then you create your destiny...I'll explain this further.

This is by far the most insulting stereotype of atheists that I have a problem with. I am not selfish. Merely because you cannot comprehend how an individual can be mature enough and loving enough to place others ahead of themselves in life without "big brother," should on no account allow you to dismiss the possibility.

QuoteSelflessness doesn't demand love in return for love. Love does not play mans all too common game of quid pro quo. If you read the Bible and replaced the word God with a human name, "Michael." You would think Michael is a wretched person.

Only because Michael would be a person. Michael wouldn't have created everything and placed value on it. God is the one who assigns value therefore everything looks to God for purpose. God grants gifts, we do not earn them.

QuoteWhat type of love is greater than sacrificial love for someone who belongs to you but chose to deny you?

You are applying a rule of this world to a supposedly omnipotent being. He could have programmed it differently but wait...


He does not still love me if I deny him. Love doesn't ask for anything in return. If he really did die for your sins out of love then I shouldn't have to earn the rewards for his great act of love.

QuoteOnly because Michael would be a person. Michael wouldn't have created everything and placed value on it. God is the one who assigns value therefore everything looks to God for purpose. God grants gifts, we do not earn them.  

Now this I have never understood. There is no since in worshiping hypocrisy. You can't be perfect and a hypocrite.

Jesus was also man. What if Jesus acted like the God of the old Testament? What if he committed genocide like Him? I doubt you would worship Him then.

QuoteEverything that Christians claim to be evidence of God is nothing more than a humorously, chimerical justification for why their God just might possibly exist. Aside from believing that even those can be answered there is no overwhelming evidence for it as there is against it.

I'll ask you the same thing I asked Kyu: what qualifies as evidence?

QuoteWhat is also likely is that there is more life in our own universe.

Based on what? I'm not saying that there isn't life elsewhere in the universe, I'm just saying that this doesn't have ANY empirical grounds.

QuoteIf there are billions if not trillions of of stars and planets in our universe and there are building blocks of the universe called galaxies that contain those stars and planets.... how do we know there isn't something that contains universes? Or something that contains them?

Okay, let's get into what this universe generator is...or more importantly...where did it come from?

QuoteOf course not. I like to think and judge for myself and not have someone dump their beliefs into my brain. If I took your word for it then I would also have to take the Muslims word... and the Hindus, and so on... it would never end. Why do you reject their word? Because they have no evidence.

Not beliefs but experiences and findings. You wouldn't accept those?

Quote

QuoteAs I have said repeatedly, there is support. Logical, empirical, philosophical, etc. Furthermore, you didn't read what I said because I told you that the basic causal effects of Santa have been disproven therefore Santa is disproven. This is not the case with God.

That is my point. There is just as much evidence for God as there is for Santa Claus.

Your point is that there is a difference between the evidence for the two? I just proved your comparison wrong, if you were rational you would defend it against my attack or else change your opinion. Neither of which you did.

QuoteObviously Yahweh answers Muslims prayers when they claim their prayers have been answered. Why couldn't it work the other way around? The truth is every faith proclaims miracles and answered prayers. So whoever this god character is it apparently doesn't matter which version of him you believe in so long as you pray. This just goes to show that things just happen. It's a 50/50 shot at whether or not you'll get what you want in life.

This is more complex than I can get into here but has to do with angels and demons...again, people need to go to a country like Indonesia, you will see things you never would have imagined. How is it a 50/50 shot that you will get what you want in life? What are the two equally possible options and how did you come to this conclusion? Furthermore, Christians don't believe that your prayers will be answered simply because you pray.

QuoteOf course receiving it does not. But needing to receive it in order to be satisfied does. This disproves his omnipotence and perfection. He was flawed in needing joy. And he was not powerful enough to create an alternative route to obtain it.

You are right if you can demonstrate that God needs joy. Which is simply not the case in the Bible.

QuoteThis is by far the most insulting stereotype of atheists that I have a problem with. I am not selfish. Merely because you cannot comprehend how an individual can be mature enough and loving enough to place others ahead of themselves in life without "big brother," should on no account allow you to dismiss the possibility.

So you gain nothing from putting others ahead of yourself? But that isn't the point I was making, it is essentially the rejection of God as instilling value...you replace him with yourself.

QuoteHe does not still love me if I deny him. Love doesn't ask for anything in return. If he really did die for your sins out of love then I shouldn't have to earn the rewards for his great act of love.

But you are wrong, God STILL loves you even if you deny him and it isn't about earning anything. I need to explain this on a more complete basis.

QuoteNow this I have never understood. There is no since in worshiping hypocrisy. You can't be perfect and a hypocrite.

Jesus was also man. What if Jesus acted like the God of the old Testament? What if he committed genocide like Him? I doubt you would worship Him then.

Quote from: "Titan"You are insinuating that there is no logical evidence, which is simply not true. You can choose to believe whatever you want, FSM, Buddhism, 2 + 2 = 12 but there are beliefs that are more rational then others...ones that answer more with less assumptions and stand up to reasoning better.

Everything that Christians claim to be evidence of God is nothing more than a humorously, chimerical justification for why their God just might possibly exist. Aside from believing that even those can be answered there is no overwhelming evidence for it as there is against it.

Let's take this common theist argument: The theory that the universe is made just right for life that it must have a creator. But we don't even know what our universe is. We know it is expanding. We have a theory of its shape. But we cannot see beyond it. If there are billions if not trillions of of stars and planets in our universe and there are building blocks of the universe called galaxies that contain those stars and planets.... how do we know there isn't something that contains universes? Or something that contains them? What is also likely is that there is more life in our own universe. How would they ever hear the gospel?

So... we do not know how many universes there are. It is thought that the shape of our universe is like that of a folded piece of paper. Suggesting that universes are stacked on top of each other and wormholes would lead into parallel universes. Who knows how many universes there are and how odd it is for its circumstances to support life? We cannot not because we have but only one universe to judge from. You cannot compare apples to oranges when you have never seen an orange. Douglas Adams compared such thinkers to an intelligent puddle of water. Adams said "the puddle is certain that the hole in the ground he occupies must have been designed specifically for him because it fits him so well. The puddle exists under the sun until he has entirely evaporated."

QuoteBy you personally? You wouldn't take anyone else at their word?

Of course not. I like to think and judge for myself and not have someone dump their beliefs into my brain. If I took your word for it then I would also have to take the Muslims word... and the Hindus, and so on... it would never end. Why do you reject their word? Because they have no evidence.

QuoteAs I have said repeatedly, there is support. Logical, empirical, philosophical, etc. Furthermore, you didn't read what I said because I told you that the basic causal effects of Santa have been disproven therefore Santa is disproven. This is not the case with God.

That is my point. There is just as much evidence for God as there is for Santa Claus.

QuoteSo Allah rewarded an infidel? The Mayan gods drew her away from them? The Secret did it for no purpose? What you are saying is rather nonsensical. Secondly, there are people who support her testimony. Again, roommates, friends and family. But explain how she would learn English in an instant through a hallucination? And why would she attribute hard work to something miraculous? Your reasoning is very confusing.

Obviously Yahweh answers Muslims prayers when they claim their prayers have been answered. Why couldn't it work the other way around? The truth is every faith proclaims miracles and answered prayers. So whoever this god character is it apparently doesn't matter which version of him you believe in so long as you pray. This just goes to show that things just happen. It's a 50/50 shot at whether or not you'll get what you want in life.

QuoteReceiving joy is different from needing the specific joy from a specific instant. Receiving pleasure doesn't present a flaw in someone.

Of course receiving it does not. But needing to receive it in order to be satisfied does. This disproves his omnipotence and perfection. He was flawed in needing joy. And he was not powerful enough to create an alternative route to obtain it.

QuoteI am going to ask someone if I can paste a part of a PM I sent them...Essentially all of salvation and the afterlife comes down to one question: Who is your life centered on? If it is about yourself then you create your destiny...I'll explain this further.

This is by far the most insulting stereotype of atheists that I have a problem with. I am not selfish. Merely because you cannot comprehend how an individual can be mature enough and loving enough to place others ahead of themselves in life without "big brother," should on no account allow you to dismiss the possibility.

QuoteSelflessness doesn't demand love in return for love. Love does not play mans all too common game of quid pro quo. If you read the Bible and replaced the word God with a human name, "Michael." You would think Michael is a wretched person.

Only because Michael would be a person. Michael wouldn't have created everything and placed value on it. God is the one who assigns value therefore everything looks to God for purpose. God grants gifts, we do not earn them.

QuoteWhat type of love is greater than sacrificial love for someone who belongs to you but chose to deny you?

You are applying a rule of this world to a supposedly omnipotent being. He could have programmed it differently but wait...


He does not still love me if I deny him. Love doesn't ask for anything in return. If he really did die for your sins out of love then I shouldn't have to earn the rewards for his great act of love.

QuoteOnly because Michael would be a person. Michael wouldn't have created everything and placed value on it. God is the one who assigns value therefore everything looks to God for purpose. God grants gifts, we do not earn them.

Now this I have never understood. There is no since in worshiping hypocrisy. You can't be perfect and a hypocrite.

Jesus was also man. What if Jesus acted like the God of the old Testament? What if he committed genocide like Him? I doubt you would worship Him then.

Nicene Creed, Jesus was fully man and fully God. Why do you think the Jews were ready to stone him for saying that he was "I Am?" Because he would be the greatest megalomaniac egocentric person to ever have set foot on this earth. The point is that Jesus was actually God. But God isn't prone to exaggeration because you can't exaggerate the good characters of God.

Titan, my apologies. I need to relocate this to a new thread before the almighty McQ zaps us. We have veered to far from "The paradox of omnipotence and hell." I trust you can find your way to the new thread.

Good thinking...Do you guys want to get back on track with this discussion?