Happy Atheist Forum

I'll be honest with everyone.  For the past few months, as much as I didn't want to admit it, my perception of the beauty of the universe had been somewhat diminished by the total removal of religion from my life.  See, before I could look up at the night sky, or earthbound vistas, and part of me would take note, "God made it like this, to be this spectacular.  Maybe he even made a few things just for us to look at, that being their sole purpose," and without God, or the belief that a supernatural hand sculpted reality, the splendor seemed somewhat diminished.   I could still see the beauty, but it wasn't there for the purpose of being looked at.  I could try to ignore the urge to remind myself that the universe was naturalistic, look at things without even thinking about how I was perceiving them, but if I looked long enough it eventually came up.  That was until last night.  I saw a few images that set me right, and fast.

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg233.imageshack.us%2Fimg233%2F4803%2Fsundog1finishedig3.jpg&hash=84aa30f121ea2d0338b202b9fe9d358b8e57bd46)

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg389.imageshack.us%2Fimg389%2F2069%2Fsundog2finishedmu8.jpg&hash=bf278ae218cddf412d9296cc5d33ba89c58b3a26)

These are sundogs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sundog), and I can't say I've ever had the pleasure of seeing one in person.  But seeing the pics moved me, and I realized that had I been there, I would have been on my knees.  Not in prayer, but out of emotion.  I realized that the fact that these weren't created on demand, or crafted for the sole purpose of our entertainment, is what makes them great.  There is beauty in most everything.  Look at a ditch, and fathom how unlikely it is, that on a planet somewhere in the void, someone dug out that ditch, that the weather shaped and filled it in a particular way, that local flora and fauna became entrenched in it in just such a fashion, all of it so very unlikely, and none of it owing to the powers of a god.  That makes it even better, the fact that it doesn't owe its being to the intent of a deity.  It makes it better, that it wasn't predestined to exist, and it's still there be seen despite that.  No one created it to be looked at, and still it's worth seeing.  I can revel in that, I can revel in the whole of nature, and I can revel in the mere existence of everything.

Anyway, since this in philosophy because it was mildly philosophical.  But let's turn it into a free-form discussion!  What do you think is beautiful, and what do think is required for something to be called beautiful?  Also: shame me for being a guy and daring to post this.   I'm told I have the heart of a little girl  :D

Those are gorgeous!  I've never heard the term sundog before.

As for having problems realizing the beauty of nature without God... for me, it's even MORE miraculous and spectacular WITHOUT God.  

When I was trying to be a believer, I'd look around and think how selfish I was to think God made all of this for me.  It was hard to not just ignore it because of that feeling of selfishness.

Looking at it now, knowing that science can explain it in ways I never could have imagined, I'm in awe of the complexity that the earth contains without any outside interference.

Does that make sense?

Makes perfect sense, I guess I wasn't so humble back when I was believer.  I never thought it was all made with me in mind, and it struck me as wrong when worship leaders would say otherwise, but I did see the universe as a sort of grand stage containing the most epic play of all time, so I guess I took a bit of a mental blow when I found out it was just a very well-finished platform without a supernatural architect to give credit to.  Hard to explain how I was feeling about it.  It was only a personal problem, though, and giving up comforting delusions is NOT going to make the universe a more comfortable place to be.  I made this post partly because I was surprised that I can personally still find things just as moving.  It's all a matter of perception, after all, but perception is not an easy thing to change.  Now I hope I make sense.

But that you for posting!  Was beginning to wonder if my post, err, wasn't the type of thing people would respond to, as my posts tend to be the ones that kill threads.  

I was sort of struck in a moment of awe last week, as a matter of fact. I was driving east along the Massachusetts Turnpike, and the clouds caught my attention. Honestly, not a good time to be staring at clouds, doing 80mph in MA of all places. But I was staring, nevertheless, and was simply in awe of the sheer magnitude, grace, and complexity of the clouds in the sky. I watched as I drove and my perspective of the clouds changed, and I could determine which were higher and lower in the atmosphere. I also noted that one of the most impressive things about what I was seeing was that there was a purpose and reason behind what I was seeing. There was no fluke, something real caused those clouds. Fortunately, after a few miles, I snapped out of it and didn't get in an accident. Just wanted to throw my hat in.

Quote from: "Ninja Donkey"I also noted that one of the most impressive things about what I was seeing was that there was a purpose and reason behind what I was seeing. There was no fluke, something real caused those clouds. Fortunately, after a few miles, I snapped out of it and didn't get in an accident. Just wanted to throw my hat in.

Of course there is purpose and reason behind what you were seeing and that something real caused the clouds... it's called evaporation, condensation, and atmospheric updraft.  :beer:

Beauty can be a lot of things.

Not safe for work.
[spoiler:8dzmjxzp](https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages39.fotki.com%2Fv1226%2Fphotos%2F8%2F892548%2F6116223%2FWinterSunset-vi.jpg&hash=2f984697acc6f8c82b18fb2b5bd26cbd47fe285a)

or

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Beauty is quite possibly the single most subjective aspect of reality.

Beauty is a very subjective thing. Some see it in Da Vinci
[spoiler:2schfs7b](https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lairweb.org.nz%2Fleonardo%2Fmonalisa.jpg&hash=0ed66f135c6ece42c816d728764e79f069daa17a)[/spoiler:2schfs7b]
Others find it in Munch
[spoiler:2schfs7b](https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsteinskog.files.wordpress.com%2F2008%2F05%2Fmunch_skrik.jpg&hash=afb981dadf784c188f1b79cc5afda87e317176f7)[/spoiler:2schfs7b]
Some find it in sunsets by the sea
[spoiler:2schfs7b](https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.freedigitalphotos.net%2Fimage%2Fs_sunset23.jpg&hash=ad5a51947b8bd16f31ab1236b6a1cbfe3e4887b0)[/spoiler:2schfs7b]
Others find it in fields of concrete and steel
[spoiler:2schfs7b](https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F207.58.183.186%2Fimages%2Fuploads%2Fportland.gif&hash=57372182d1038a043fedcbea91ca17022fe898ea)[/spoiler:2schfs7b]
Some see it in life
[spoiler:2schfs7b](https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.mirror.co.uk%2Fupl%2Fm3%2Fmar2008%2F5%2F0%2FCD2D9036-9629-C7FC-40AA96221EFE1582.jpg&hash=db9fb858fdfbd31caea16b2e11020c21e4fccf49)[/spoiler:2schfs7b]
And others see it in death
[spoiler:2schfs7b](https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.freewebs.com%2Fthehyenahome%2Fzebra%2520foal%2520carcass.bmp&hash=bc7900fa5cf261746599b23c84532510fae18b6a)[/spoiler:2schfs7b]
And some people see beauty in any combination of those things - or in none of them.

And it seems to me that our definition of beauty is generally independent of its creator - be it Da Vinci or a hyena.

I am a theist who discovered something i'd like to ask of atheists.  I checked out a couple forums, and this one seemed to have intelligent, sensitive people posting, so i chose to ask here.  My question concerns the experience of awe.

The experience of awe i've had is being smitten by something.  Distant mountain views, outer space.  The idea of how small i am vs. the planet, how small that is vs. the solar system vs. the galaxy vs. the universe.  That such a tiny physical spec as me can have... ideas.  Meditating on the idea of infinity.  Pre-natal development: that so much complexity can apparently auto-assemble in just 9 months.  It's staggering.  These experiences i have had just blow me away.  I shrink before their majesty.  I'm overwhelmed.  And this is an extremely joyful experience.  I often feel grateful.

I believe what i've described is common to the human species, but if you haven't had such experiences, that's very interesting to me so pls let me know.

And it is easy to correlate such experiences to the existence of god.  I'm just blown away by god, in one of his many expressions.

My question for atheists about awe is that it appears to me that a requisite component of the experience of awe is surrendering to the greatness of the awesome thing.  Again, i see the parallel here in my personal surrender to god, but how do atheists see this surrendering?  Or do they experience awe w/o such a surrendering?

Now a logical question.  It also seems that embedded smack dab in the middle of the experience of awe is the idea that the experienced thing is so far above and beyond me that it's overwhelming.  It's mental / emotional / spiritual overload.  If that is so, how can we then, after the fact, consider the awesome thing and declare it "not god."  Or even "god" for that matter.  It seems to me that the experience of awe insists that we not pass judgment at all, and just accept it, whatever it is.  It affects us.  But if an atheist were to conclude so, how would he then rule out the possibility that he just saw god?

And one more thing.  I would guess that one answer atheists might give is that while they "feel" like they're experiencing and surrendering to something greater than themselves, this is in fact, while pleasant, just an illusion.  However, i can't imagine actually thinking "this is an illusion" when having an awe-ful experience.  It would kill the buzz.  It appears that i actually must believe the awe-inducing thing is real, or else i won't feel the awe.  so, in fact, i have to be deceived in order to experience awe--and not realize i am deceived.  But, again, atheists appear to want to not be deceived, and that's why they dont believe in god.  So do you apply the same goal to 'awe' or does the goal differ here.  It appears, eg, that the atheist who does not want to be deceived must cease experiencing awe.  Maybe that's what you do.

Thanks in advance for your replies.

Quote from: "jvk"I am a theist who discovered something i'd like to ask of atheists.  I checked out a couple forums, and this one seemed to have intelligent, sensitive people posting, so i chose to ask here.  My question concerns the experience of awe.

Yeah, we're a pretty rockin' bunch.  ;) Atheists feel awe, of course. We're just as human as anyone else, just as subject to those emotions. The difference is that we know what it is: a chemical response to something we're pre-disposed to react to or enjoy. When I think about how small we are, on a universal scale, I'm blown away. That doesn't mean I have to surrender to it. In reality, the difference in scale between a person and an ant, versus our planet and the galaxy isn't all that important. It's neat, but it really means nothing to me, as it's not something I can really wrap my head around. Not even Stephen Hawking can really understand those sizes and distances. He's said so, himself. Anyone who claims they can... well, I tend to look on them with suspicion. The fact that you can't separate regular old astonishment from religious fervor is where we differ.

Quote from: "jvk"And one more thing. I would guess that one answer atheists might give is that while they "feel" like they're experiencing and surrendering to something greater than themselves, this is in fact, while pleasant, just an illusion. However, i can't imagine actually thinking "this is an illusion" when having an awe-ful experience. It would kill the buzz. It appears that i actually must believe the awe-inducing thing is real, or else i won't feel the awe. so, in fact, i have to be deceived in order to experience awe--and not realize i am deceived. But, again, atheists appear to want to not be deceived, and that's why they dont believe in god. So do you apply the same goal to 'awe' or does the goal differ here. It appears, eg, that the atheist who does not want to be deceived must cease experiencing awe. Maybe that's what you do.

An illusion? How so? An illusion is something that isn't real. Emotions are very much real. Where's the illusion? Just because we know about polypeptides and amino acids doesn't mean the feeling we get when we look at the Northern Lights is fake. There is no buzz kill. Ever see David Copperfield fly? That's fake. An illusion. Still pretty damn cool.

You have a very ill-informed concept of what an atheist is. I.e., somehow different from you in the way we experience the world. Our experiences are just the same. The difference is how we interpret them. We don't rely on supernatural explanations because they're superfluous and anachronistic. Oh, and wrong.  

Probably didn't answer your question at all, I'm afraid.

We don't correlate such experiences to the existence of god, because there is nothing out there that justifies the belief in a god. If we look at the greatness of the universe then we realize that our planet Earth is extremely insignificant. Not to mention the human race that lives on it, because on the galactic time scale we only just showed our noses. The idea that a supernatural being created this universe especially for us, therefore sounds extremely ridiculous and arrogant. Just place the story of Adam and Eve, the original sin or biblical flood on a galactic scale and you realize how silly that all sounds. That is why I enjoy the beauty of it all, but leave out the myths and the superstition.

You tend to be awed when you notice things highly unusual compared to your daily life, for example, something really big, small or beautiful.

Feeling grateful pre-supposes the existance of someone who created the vista etc. Being awed does not require you to surrender (what does that even mean in this context anyway?), merely to acknowledge the unusual and striking characteristics of what you are viewing.

Seeing something like a mountain view does not mean it is "beyond" you (again, what does this really mean?), merley that is large, you are small, hence you are struck by the large size disparity. You have attributes the mountain does not, which are also quite remarkable. When you look at a mountain, the chain of reasoning you seem to be suggesting is

1 Wow
2 That thing is huge
3 God must have made it, hes awsome,

I think we can see the non sequitor in there. As for your last paragraph, an atheist ( at least this atheist ) would not ascribe the surrendering as an illusion, but simply not feel any need to surrender.

Also

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbeconfused.com%2Fimages%2F2006%2F06%2FThe-Morning-Glory-cloud-sweeps-in-over-the-Gulf-coast-of-northern-Queensland.jpg&hash=ecb9ab3ac3ecb3af937b6e3eafd937da2d172d08)

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.burkeshirecouncil.com%2Fimages%2Fclouds%2Fmorning_glory_cloud_1994.jpg&hash=eb3e786c8c515188b0325ad190fef542b7807db4)

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pinktentacle.com%2Fimages%2Fcloud_streets.jpg&hash=a8c04934e60c96ad6c4b8e120346947c60cd7f1c)

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One from above

I love clouds, these are called morning glory type clouds

Well, you guys did not disappoint.  I'm very interested in what everyone said.  I will be pondering these things.  I am encouraged that we all do seem to start with the same experience of awe.  It's such a wonderful phenomena it would sadden me if people didnt get to experience it.  It appears from this first read that while we may experience awe the same way, our *response* to that awe differs.  So i will be mulling over that difference over the next couple days and come back when i have something to share.

Thanks again for your helping me understand your "worldview".

curiosityandthecat, just a clarification question.  You said

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"When I think about how small we are, on a universal scale, I'm blown away

but , later

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"The difference in scale between a person and an ant, versus our planet and the galaxy isn't all that important. It's neat, but it really means nothing to me,

and then again

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"it's not something I can really wrap my head around. Not even Stephen Hawking can really understand those sizes and distances.

and later

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"The fact that you can't separate regular old astonishment from religious fervor is where we differ.

The type of experience i'm thinking about here is more the blown-away type.  Dumbstruck.  Speechless.  The obvious "awestruck."  What i'm referring to seems consistent with you saying you're "blown away" or "you can't wrap your head around it" or even "religious ferver", but it does not seem consistent with descriptions of "not all that important", "mean nothing to me", "regular old astonishment".  You seem to use them all interchangeably about the same experience.  But for me, there's a gradient, and i am asking about the outliers, the ones that really, blow us away.  Those extreme experiences to me (the uninitiated) seem the hardest to reconcile with atheism.  That's why i'm asking

So do you also experience this gradient?  Or is there some other reason why you can describe blow-away experiences as "regular old astonishment"?  Or something else that i dont quite see yet?

I'm still mulling over the other answers and deeper issues.

Thanks again!  very stimulating.

In response to the OP, I'm glad you came to that conclusion on your own as I had done.  I'm a de-convert myself, and I can't tell you how much MORE amazing these random acts are now.  The fact is, the chances of all these things happening at once and somehow I was there to witness those conditions come into play is awesome in itself.  That's all you really need.

To jvk about the feeling of "awe", well I say that I've found plenty of things to find awe in that were created by man, so the notion that I would need for any god to create something to find it "awesome" is puzzling and, honestly, troubling.

I'm surpised that I don't see more discussion of Gaeia (sp?) Theory. Some believe that the earth is a unified living organism, some believe that  the earth might be a unified living organism with some sort of conciousness.
I don't, but when I see natural beauty, I can understand such a position and wish I could thank something.

Beauty is everywhere.
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I always find beauty in the Earth and the universe. Personally I think the idea that we are all just boarding on a tiny piece of matter orbiting an insignificant spark inside of another insignificant spark in a vastly infinite universe is a wonderfully fascinating idea.

I was thinking about just how great nature is a few nights ago when sea fog was blanketing the city around sunset, it looked so amazing. And I never feel the urge to think things like it was created for me to see. It's just there because it's there, that's good enough for me.