Happy Atheist Forum

Morning all,

Interesting article I found through Fark.com this morning - take a look:
Why can't we all be Japanese? (http://www.humaniststudies.org/enews/index.html?id=219&article=7)

The article was written by this site:
God Would Be An Atheist (http://www.godwouldbeanatheist.com/)

... and there's a lively discussion at Fark.com:
Is there a correlation between religious faith and antisocial behavior? (http://forums.fark.com/cgi/fark/comments.pl?IDLink=2239905)

Read, Enjoy, Comment excessively as needed...

Off to run errands,
  JoeActor

I find the 1st article very interesting and believe that there is an element of truth in it. I do believe however that poverty puts a greater mark on violance and teenage pregancies than religion. The 2nd article brings nothing new for me as a European, I've heard these kind of statements for many, many years. The discussion at Fark.com didn't interest me so much, because there is no scientific proof that a correlation between religious faith and antisocial behavious exists.

The actual study:
http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html (http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html)

I found this quote from the study interesting...

"This is not an attempt to present a definitive study that establishes cause versus effect between religiosity, secularism and societal health.  It is hoped that these original correlations and results will spark future research and debate on the issue.
"

So if I may whip out my Iplaw Bullcrap-to-English (TM) dictionary for a second...

"What I'm about to say will look, talk and act like a real study, but it isn't.  This paper would never survive the peer review process, but at least I can fool people into talking about these misconstrued facts and studies as if they are, and maybe at the same time find someone who will do research to prove the point I'm trying to make..."

My take on it:

Religious folks commit good acts, and evil deeds.

Non-religious folks commit good acts, and evil deeds.

Conclusion: we're humans, and in the end religion does not affect our ability to do good or evil... but it may provide a justification for what we do...

Think or Thwim,
  JoeActor

Japanese people are also very boring. They also make weird cartoons and tv shows and kill people with Sarin gas. I'd rather live in the USA where we have guns and criminals but they rarely go to the extent Japanese criminals go to.

Quote from: "Big Mac"Japanese people are also very boring. They also make weird cartoons and tv shows and kill people with Sarin gas. I'd rather live in the USA where we have guns and criminals but they rarely go to the extent Japanese criminals go to.

Gee, that must be why the US murder per capita rate is over 8 times as high as Japan.
(see here (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita) for details)

They also happen to have a much higher acceptance for evolution than the good ole' USofA.
(see here (http://www.livescience.com/humanbiology/060810_evo_rank.html) for details)

When did the US become a nation of religious, unthinking, violent people? (but that's just my opinion)

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right,
  JoeActor

Take your America bashing crap somewhere else.

Quotereligious

As far as I know, this country has been a "religious" nation since its inception.  Of course what do I know, I'm just an evil right-wing conservative religious zealot hatemonger.

Quoteunthinking

Most of the R&D that occurs to fight dieases and advance technology come straight out of the minds of US citizens.  This country's entrepenurial spirit has fostered some of the most brilliant inventions that humanity has ever seen.  Sounds like someone is unthinking, but I don't believe it's the group that it was first asserted to be.

Quoteviolent

Well, I do agree that the US has far more violence than I would like it to, but to insinuate that we can somehow be labeled as "violent" as if we in the US posess some evil quality that eludes the rest of the world, that's just gibberish.  Here is a good study of the ICVS statistics written by R.J. Rummel, a poli-sci emeritus professor.  Of course maybe he's just religious, unthinking and violent.

http://freedomspeace.blogspot.com/2006/ ... f-all.html (http://freedomspeace.blogspot.com/2006/02/is-america-most-violent-of-all.html)

Your opinion is ill informed.

EDIT: Added Link

Quote from: "iplaw"Take your America bashing crap somewhere else.

tsk, tsk, tsk... as a legal professional, you better than anyone should know that the US is exactly the right place for a critical person to "bash" their own country.

It's my opinion that the USA (I won't condemn the entire continent) has been sliding down in a number of important areas.

When the rest of the world is laughing openly at us, there is more than enough cause for concern.  Ok, so maybe Tony Blair isn't laughing, but he's in the minority.

We're becomming more illiterate, innumerate, and losing our edge on the world market because of it.

Religous Nation?  We've always had it, but I won't support the "Christian Nation" hoax that is bandied about so frequently.

Unthinking?  Abso-friggin-lutely.  When Intelligent Design/Intelligent Origin "Theory" (or ID/IOT) can even be considered a viable alternative to real scientific research, we're in deep shit.  And don't get me started on who got elected... twice!

Violent?  I agree - we're not the most violent.  But that's hardly a red-letter day in my book.  Maybe if we were a bit more thinking, and tolerant of others beliefs, things would change for the better.

In any case, it's my opinion... and in the USofA, I'm entitled to it, and entitled to state it.  Nobody's asking for your consent or approval.

QuoteWhen the rest of the world is laughing openly at us, there is more than enough cause for concern.

The rest of the world would fall apart without the assistance of the US.  Unfortunately we must direct the affairs of a good bit of the world because those countries who like to point and laugh have a nasty habit of getting in way over their heads prompting cries and pleadings for US intervention.  I.E. WWII

When there is a disaster in this world, who is there first to pick up the pieces and offer aid?  France, Germany, maybe Iran...please.  

QuoteWe're becomming more illiterate, innumerate, and losing our edge on the world market because of it.

Point me to a reasonable, learned study that backs this tripe up.  Though it wouldn't surprise me if illiteracy rates are climbing due to rampant illegal immigration consisting of people who refuse to learn or speak English in order to preserve their heritage.  My wife is a teacher and has a damned difficult time trying to teach children who's parents won't speak English in the home.

QuoteReligous Nation? We've always had it, but I won't support the "Christian Nation" hoax that is bandied about so frequently.

Blah Blah Blah...that's the topic of another thread which I am willing to participate in, but you cede the point anyways.

QuoteUnthinking? Abso-friggin-lutely. When Intelligent Design/Intelligent Origin "Theory" (or ID/IOT) can even be considered a viable alternative to real scientific research, we're in deep shit. And don't get me started on who got elected... twice!

Yeah.  Wonderful, Bush baaaddd.  I would expect as much from an actor.  Maybe Barbra Streisand should run the country?

I hate to inform you, but ID and various other theories, regardless of their viability are belived world-wide.  The US doesn't corner the market on wacked out diversity of opinion.  Some of the biggest proponents of ID come from all over the four corners of the world; just use google.

I love to see how people like you take ONE idea and extrapolate that to define the ENTIRE US population as unthinking.  A little extreme and UNTHINKING don't you think?  Or maybe the fact is, you don't.

QuoteIn any case, it's my opinion... and in the USofA, I'm entitled to it, and entitled to state it. Nobody's asking for your consent or approval.

Yes, but that doesn't keep me from stating that it's ill informed either.

Yeah well how about the Yakuza and other criminal organizations in Japan? Not to mention the Rape of Naking that the Japs don't like to remember but they're just fine in reminding us how easily we kicked their asses with our advanced A-Bomb. Without us, Japan would be another asian country, backwards and mystic. The asians owe America all it has, even China.

Let me guess, you're going to blame american violence on guns as all the other leftists. Right, go right ahead. Hippy.....

Or the frequent beheading of our POW servicemen during WWII...

I hope he's not a Hippy...I thought we were through with Hippies when Chris left.

Indeed. The Japanese are merely scared shitless right now after we bombed them twice. That's all that keeps those little violent dicks in line. Fear, fear and this battle station, Lord Vader.

My 2cts. The USA also has its share of nutcase fanatics just like Japan. Remember Waco and the Oklahoma City bombing?

I like America and the American people, but I don't like that mindless moron in your White House. Former president Ronald Reagan had more brains in his little finger than Bush in his whole head.

Starting war against Iraq under false pretenses and then being impotent to get that country under control. Yeah, America loves to bomb and invade, but they are not able to cleanup their mess afterwards. The only thing that Bush's "War against Terrorism" created is even more terrorism.

If the USA really wanted to do the right thing they should have nuked the whole Middle East, Israel included.

Well well Tom, aren't we the angry one? Didn't anyone go to your Bar Mitzvah? That's French for Birthday party.

QuoteYeah, America loves to bomb and invade, but they are not able to cleanup their mess afterwards.

I can't wait to hear the cries from these euros when islamic facists start mythodically destroying their countries from the inside out. In typical cowardly european pre WWII fashion, they are ignoring their impending termination.  They mistakenly believe that they are safe because they are staying neutral in the war on terror.  I have some bad news for you euros, you are target #1.  You don't play by sharia law.  You are seen as westernized and you are readily accessable.  Drink up EU, your first on the Islamic chopping block.

No sense of humour Big Mac? America, America über alles?
Bush is just a wanker and you know it.

Quote from: "Tom62"America, America über alles?
Bush is just a wanker and you know it.

LOL!  :lol:

Great phrase Tom62, and even funnier coming from a German.

You definitely have a healthy sense of humor!

What can you say about a president who was outsmarted by a pretzel?
Here's a toy for you from a friend of mine: Georgie (http://www.planetdan.net/pics/misc/georgie.htm)

Don't waste too much time feeding the trolls...

Ooog say, "Bush baadddd, Democrats goooddd. "  See, being a partisan hack is so easy...even a caveman can do it.

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmyspace-026.vo.llnwd.net%2F00446%2F62%2F00%2F446460026_m.jpg&hash=c1cd3aef8a5be87e0243d0393a964a84154b7a1e)

Quote from: "joeactor"Great phrase Tom62, and even funnier coming from a German.

Although I live in Germany, I'm not German. I should change my flag to that of the Netherlands to avoid confusion.

Bush says that anyone who is not with HIM is with the terrorists. In other words: any dissent is treason. But to quote Thomas Jefferson: "To criticize those in power, is the highest form of patriotism."

Yeah, but back in Jefferson's day, criticism actually encompassed reasonable thought and discourse; critics actually had something substantive to say unlike today.  People love to criticize the US and Bush concerning foreign affairs, but no one offers any rational alternative to current US policies.  

If you have better ideas, please, enlighten us.

Quote from: "iplaw"In typical cowardly european pre WWII fashion, they are ignoring their impending termination. They mistakenly believe that they are safe because they are staying neutral in the war on terror.

You're wrong there. Several European countries (including mine) were  fighting in your "holy" war against Iraq. Germany was neutral because the fu###ng socialist party wanted to win their local elections; France was neutral, because they are fu###ng french.

Unlike the US military action in Afghanistan (which I fully supported), the Iraqi war had nothing to do with fighting terrorism. Al-Quadia roots were in Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Sudan and Bosnia, not Iraq. The main reasons why Iraq was invaded were 1. oil and 2. some unfinished business between the Bush family and Saddam Hussein.

QuoteI have some bad news for you euros, you are target #1.  You don't play by sharia law.  You are seen as westernized and you are readily accessable.  Drink up EU, your first on the Islamic chopping block.

How true. I really want to thank Bush's "War against Terrorism" for making the world such a better place to live in :lol: . I also want to thank our liberal European leaders for sticking your heads in the sand by ignoring those islamic bastards for years :cry: .

I do have to say that I whole heartedly agree the last half of your last statement.

QuoteSeveral European countries (including mine) were fighting in your "holy" war against Iraq.

My comment had nothing to do with Iraq, you made that an issue.  You agreed with my premise that the EU is ignoring Islamic fundamentalism, which was my point.  I think you are attempting to say that islamic fundamentalism is a direct result of the war with Iraq.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  Riots in France, killings resulting from comic strips in the Netherlands, and so on defeat that argument outright.  What did the US do to deserve 9/11, we weren't in Iraq yet?  How about the rest of these, they all happened before Iraq as well:

June 25, Dhahran, Saudi Arabia: truck bomb exploded outside Khobar Towers military complex, killing 19 American servicemen and injuring hundreds of others. 13 Saudis and a Lebanese, all alleged members of Islamic militant group Hezbollah, were indicted on charges relating to the attack in June 2001.

Aug. 7, Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania: truck bombs exploded almost simultaneously near 2 U.S. embassies, killing 224 (213 in Kenya and 11 in Tanzania) and injuring about 4,500. 4 men connected with al-Qaeda 2 of whom had received training at al-Qaeda camps inside Afghanistan, were convicted of the killings in May 2001 and later sentenced to life in prison. A federal grand jury had indicted 22 men in connection with the attacks, including Saudi dissident Osama bin Laden, who remained at large.

Oct. 12, Aden, Yemen: U.S. Navy destroyer USS Cole heavily damaged when a small boat loaded with explosives blew up alongside it. 17 sailors killed. Linked to Osama bin Laden, or members of al-Qaeda terrorist network.

QuoteIraqi war had nothing to do with fighting terrorism. Al-Quadia roots were in Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Sudan and Bosnia, not Iraq. The main reasons why Iraq was invaded were 1. oil and 2. some unfinished business between the Bush family and Saddam Hussein.

First, Iraq was a nation that harbored terrorists, they funded groups like Al-Aqsa and Islamic Jihad and their leader systematically tried to exstinguish an entire ethinc group of his own countrymen.  

To think that Al-Qaeda is or was the only threat to the world is simply rediculous.  The US declared a war on terror, not a war on Al-Qaeda.

As to the oil claim:

It's the dumbest of all the rebuttals of US involvment in Iraq.  If our aim was to take over Iraqi oil, we would have accomplished those means by now.  If the war was for oil why is it currently at over $70 a barrell?  If we wanted oil we could have invaded Iran or Saudi Arabia first.

You're missing the bigger picture.  The US is attempting to plant a democracy in the region to put the squeeze on Iran, the head of the snake.  With democratic states on either side of Iran, we embolden the population of Iran, who are mostly pro-Western already and take it down from the inside out.  Iran is the head of the snake and is the one instigating the current crises in the middle east with Hezbollah.

Quote from: "Tom62"No sense of humour Big Mac? America, America über alles?
Bush is just a wanker and you know it.

Yeah well as I recall didn't you guys...oh I don't know....PUT HITLER INTO POWER WILLINGLY!!!! So how does Bush top that wonderful choice of ruler? Not to mention thanks to Germany we have Marxism. So thanks to you guys we have China, North Korea, and formerly the USSR to worry about. So don't start bashing America when we've saved you guys' asses so many times it isn't funny anymore. If it was for us, you Germans would be speaking German!!!!


Ah, just joking....

By the way, we all know the Netherlands is where Peter Pan and Tinkerbell go. Don't try to trick us, you kraut!

In all seriousness, Clintons are wankers just as much. All politicians, lawyers, cops, and anything that deals with the government or authority in general, are wankers.

I don't like Bush because of his work as the Governor of my state. He implemented very poor education ideas and generally made life in Texas worse. Bush isn't a stupid guy, far from it, he just isn't a politician. He's a socialite who used his connections from his rich daddy to become president. Just like every other power-horny leader we have had. I say we just demolish the government  and live in Mad Max style anarchy. At least the people sizing us up for a coffin will be open about it.

Quote from: "iplaw"I do have to say that I whole heartedly agree the last half of your last statement.

QuoteSeveral European countries (including mine) were fighting in your "holy" war against Iraq.

My comment had nothing to do with Iraq, you made that an issue.  You agreed with my premise that the EU is ignoring Islamic fundamentalism, which was my point.  I think you are attempting to say that islamic fundamentalism is a direct result of the war with Iraq.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  Riots in France, killings resulting from comic strips in the Netherlands, and so on defeat that argument outright.  What did the US do to deserve 9/11, we weren't in Iraq yet?  How about the rest of these, they all happened before Iraq as well:

June 25, Dhahran, Saudi Arabia: truck bomb exploded outside Khobar Towers military complex, killing 19 American servicemen and injuring hundreds of others. 13 Saudis and a Lebanese, all alleged members of Islamic militant group Hezbollah, were indicted on charges relating to the attack in June 2001.

Aug. 7, Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania: truck bombs exploded almost simultaneously near 2 U.S. embassies, killing 224 (213 in Kenya and 11 in Tanzania) and injuring about 4,500. 4 men connected with al-Qaeda 2 of whom had received training at al-Qaeda camps inside Afghanistan, were convicted of the killings in May 2001 and later sentenced to life in prison. A federal grand jury had indicted 22 men in connection with the attacks, including Saudi dissident Osama bin Laden, who remained at large.

Oct. 12, Aden, Yemen: U.S. Navy destroyer USS Cole heavily damaged when a small boat loaded with explosives blew up alongside it. 17 sailors killed. Linked to Osama bin Laden, or members of al-Qaeda terrorist network.

QuoteIraqi war had nothing to do with fighting terrorism. Al-Quadia roots were in Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Sudan and Bosnia, not Iraq. The main reasons why Iraq was invaded were 1. oil and 2. some unfinished business between the Bush family and Saddam Hussein.

First, Iraq was a nation that harbored terrorists, they funded groups like Al-Aqsa and Islamic Jihad and their leader systematically tried to exstinguish an entire ethinc group of his own countrymen.  

To think that Al-Qaeda is or was the only threat to the world is simply rediculous.  The US declared a war on terror, not a war on Al-Qaeda.

As to the oil claim:

It's the dumbest of all the rebuttals of US involvment in Iraq.  If our aim was to take over Iraqi oil, we would have accomplished those means by now.  If the war was for oil why is it currently at over $70 a barrell?  If we wanted oil we could have invaded Iran or Saudi Arabia first.

You're missing the bigger picture.  The US is attempting to plant a democracy in the region to put the squeeze on Iran, the head of the snake.  With democratic states on either side of Iran, we embolden the population of Iran, who are mostly pro-Western already and take it down from the inside out.  Iran is the head of the snake and is the one instigating the current crises in the middle east with Hezbollah.

Don't forget February, 1993. WTC bombing. Thanks to Osama.

McQ:

Are you familiar with Robert Young Pelton?  He has been cataloging and visiting the world's most dangerous places for about 20 years.  It blew me away when I started reading about most of these various islamic fundamentalist organizations and what they have been up to for the last 30 or 40 years.  Truly scarry.

He has updated his site with this interactive Wiki type map.  Click on any country linked to an click on [/]The Players[/u] links.  It gives you a fairly good summation of most of the dangerous groups around the world.

http://comebackalive.com/site3.php?section_id=666 (http://comebackalive.com/site3.php?section_id=666)

Here is the older site with more country information.  The new site has yet to have all the information transfered to it.

http://www.comebackalive.com/df/dplaces.htm (http://www.comebackalive.com/df/dplaces.htm)

For all those who think GWB is the cause of islamic extremism and that the Taliban liked the US when Slick Willie was in office, here is a little rant by Mullah Omar about Bill Clinton.  This should give you an idea that they don't give two sh*ts about who is in office:

Mullah Omar was quoted as saying that Clinton should be stoned to death for becoming involved with a woman who is not his wife. "Clinton is a confessed sinner and a bad person," and "It is absolutely not possible to negotiate with such a person and he should be removed [from power] and stoned to death. He is of bad character."

Here is another little choice quote from Mr. Binny in 1998, long before GWB:


The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty Allah, "and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together," and "fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah."

This is in addition to the words of Almighty Allah: "And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)? -- women and children, whose cry is: 'Our Lord, rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will help!'"

We -- with Allah's help -- call on every Muslim who believes in Allah and wishes to be rewarded to comply with Allah's order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it. We also call on Muslim ulema, leaders, youths, and soldiers to launch the raid on Satan's U.S. troops and the devil's supporters allying with them, and to displace those who are behind them so that they may learn a lesson.  

Quote from: "iplaw"McQ:

Are you familiar with Robert Young Pelton?  He has been cataloging and visiting the world's most dangerous places for about 20 years.  It blew me away when I started reading about most of these various islamic fundamentalist organizations and what they have been up to for the last 30 or 40 years.  Truly scarry.

He has updated his site with this interactive Wiki type map.  Click on any country linked to an click on [/]The Players[/u] links.  It gives you a fairly good summation of most of the dangerous groups around the world.

http://comebackalive.com/site3.php?section_id=666 (http://comebackalive.com/site3.php?section_id=666)

Here is the older site with more country information.  The new site has yet to have all the information transfered to it.

http://www.comebackalive.com/df/dplaces.htm (http://www.comebackalive.com/df/dplaces.htm)

For some reason his name is familiar, but I'm not remembering why. Thanks for the links. I'll check them out.

If I was a single guy I would be REALLY open to the idea of visiting those countries just to see if I could complete the list.  His book is a travel guide for dangerous vacations and thrill seekers, but the older I get, just getting out of bed in the morning becomes a dangerous event, especially if my wife notices I forgot to take out the trash the night before...

Quote from: "iplaw"If I was a single guy I would be REALLY open to the idea of visiting those countries just to see if I could complete the list.  His book is a travel guide for dangerous vacations and thrill seekers, but the older I get, just getting out of bed in the morning becomes a dangerous event, especially if my wife notices I forgot to take out the trash the night before...

I hear ya'.

Wow, I opened a can of worms yesterday. Sorry Iplaw and BigMac that I sounded so angry. I was just a bit annoyed by this America is good and the rest of the world is crap messages. Like I said earlier, most European countries are not neutral in your so called "war against terror". We "euros" try to help the USA as much as possible in this war (f.e. by exchanging intelligence, militairy presence, stronger border controls, etc.). Not only the europeans but everyone ignored the islamitic fundamentalists until it was to late. The FBI and CIA knew that these 9/11 bastards were in your country and up to no good, but didn't stop them.

Be honest, the whole war in Iraq started as an excuse to fight terror. Don't get me wrong, Saddam was a bastard and I'm glad he is gone, but he didn't had those WMD's and was not a thread to the USA. Iraq after the war is now plaged by terrorist bombings and on the verge of a civil war. Should the USA and their allies leave, it is likely that Iraq will become another Islamic fundamentalist state like Iran. The Iraqi war also didn't really help to improve the image of the USA in the Arabic world. Torturing prisoners, secret CIA flights from Europe, dehumanizing conditions in Guantanamo Bay, etc. etc., pissed off a lot of people. The islamic fundamentalists have no problems nowadays to find new recruits. Somehow this makes the "war against terror" look rather ineffective.

I believe that we cannot turn back the clock. Mistakes have been made by all parties involved and I just hope that we've learned from them.

Quote from: "Big Mac"By the way, we all know the Netherlands is where Peter Pan and Tinkerbell go. Don't try to trick us, you kraut!

No, everyone knows that the Netherlands is the most evil   place on Earth. It is even more evil than Belgium.

http://www.dreamagic.com//cgi-bin/Poetr ... umber=0002 (http://www.dreamagic.com//cgi-bin/PoetryGen.cgi?author=Ank_J._Steadyspear&html=steadyspear&title=Six_Nuclear_Evil_Dutch&number=0002)

Another proof of our evilness can be found in the film "Austin Powers in Goldmember" where Nigel Powers (Michael Cane) saids "There are only two things I can't stand in this world: people who are intolerant of other people's cultures, and the Dutch."

Tom62:

I enjoy and respect Europe very much; I want to make that very clear.  I have met some of the most wonderful people in my life while traveling Europe.  People are basically the same all over the world, but unfortunately so are politicians and nut jobs.

Trust me, with Iraq, mistakes will always be made in wars and 99.9% of our soldiers are noble people, but don't labor under the delusion that anyone in the middle east would feel differently about the West if we wouldn't have gone into Iraq.  Their hate existed long before we went there and will last for long after we leave.  That's the b!tch about being in power, you always have those who hate you for that power.

As far as WMDs, are you familiar with Georges Sada (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Sada)?  He was an Iraqi General who says he knows exactly what happened to those WMDs.  He is now a part of the new Iraqi government.

Thanks for your message Iplaw. I agree with you for the full 100%. The USA had always been "the bad guy" according to the Arabs, whether the invasion would have taken place or not.  I'm not familiar with Georges Sada, but am highly curious what happened to those WMD's. I surely hope we can bring "order" in the middle east (and elsewhere) and at the same time convince the people in that region that we are not the bad guys after all. My personal belief is that is if we are able to bring peace, freedom, but most of all welfare to those people then we could win this "war on terror".

Well I have to disagree Tom.

The War on Terror will go on forever unless you can make EVERYONE agree on EVERYTHING. Not only would life be boring, but it'd be dangerous because the lack of an opposing view point. The War on Terror is like the War on Drugs, it'll never end and it's a losing battle for us. The only (partially) successful technique is making a dictatorship that makes Hitler look like an Amish guy.

What you are saying makes absolutely sense, Big Mac. We can make some victories in this War on Terror, but we can never win the "final battle". How far should a state go to protect itself against terror, without becoming a "terror" state itself? Pretty soon, we might only able to board a plane after a full medical- and cross-examination, iris scan, finger printing, DNA analysis and wearing nothing but our underware.

I think we should all adopt the El Al airlines mentality.  Unfortunately this is going to have to come down to profiling for simple reasons of efficacy.  We need to scrutinize passengers, but it doesn't make sense to strip search granny or the 5 year old carrying a teddy bear.  Right now, 99.9% of our threat comes from Islamic men ages 18-40, and until that demographic radically changes that's who we should focus on and who should get the brunt of the hairy eyeball at the airport.

My thoughts exactly.

When a little girl goes missing, you don't look at the 84 year old Korean lady, you look at the creepy white guy who works at Kinko's as a night manager and talks to himself.