Hello all,
Agnostic Theist poster child here...
I'd like to start an open discussion on the topics of Agnostic vs. Gnostic (as knowledge), and Atheism vs. Theism (as beliefs).
While I do not side with those that say "atheism is a religion", I will state that in my opinion, it is a belief. (ie. unsupported by evidence)
Here's my take on the 4 possible combinations (1st person):
AA) Agnostic Atheism: I cannot define or know god, and I believe there is no god
GA) Gnostic Atheism: I know there is no god, and I believe there is no god
AT) Agnostic Theism: I cannot define or know god, and I believe god exists
GT) Gnostic Theism: I know and define god, and I believe god exists
So, you can see I've split things up into knowledge and beliefs. In the cases of GA and GT, it's a bit redundant, but there you have it.
From my perspective (AT), I'm most curious as to why others have arrived at the conclusions they currently hold. Some of this seems to stem from a desire to have definite answers (ie. there IS or IS NOT a god). Are humans really afraid to say "I don't know"?
Well, I've rambled on enough - chime in... I'd love to hear all of your opinions.
Lost in time, and lost in space, and meaning,
JoeActor
BTW, I did put all 4 choices on the poll, but for some ungodly reason Gnostic Theist didn't show up!
My apologies - Admin, can you fix it please?
(10q)
AA- Science plays far too much of a role in what I believe. But in the end, even with all that "evidence"that's all they are is beliefs...... bummer.....
Quote from: "joeactor"BTW, I did put all 4 choices on the poll, but for some ungodly reason Gnostic Theist didn't show up!
My apologies - Admin, can you fix it please?
(10q)
For some stupid reason, you have to add an extra option at the bottom of the poll to get all options to show for instance if you want 4 options type in a 5th junk option that won't be showing. I don't know why it does that, but that's how they designed this script.
I'm a gnostic atheist towards specific types of gods but agnostic towards some sort of undefined not directly involved higher power. So, I clicked on agnostic atheist in the poll.
I suppose I'm also Agnostic Atheist. Of course I don't know that god doesn't exist, (hell, who does?) but I definitely deny his existance.
Quote from: "laetusatheos"I'm a gnostic atheist towards specific types of gods but agnostic towards some sort of undefined not directly involved higher power. So, I clicked on agnostic atheist in the poll.
Hmmm... hadn't considered splitting it by gods. Great thought.
and thanks much for fixing the poll.
Where's fundie? Shouldn't there be at least one Gnostic Theist checked here?
Chime in evabuddy!
I checked GA.
I checked AA. I cannot define or know god, and I believe there is no god. If there is something out there that could be called god, it has nothing to do with the bible or religion.
I would fall into the agnostic atheist category.
Strictly speaking, and I know it is splitting hairs, I wouldn't place myself in any of the categories. Gnostic theist? ..... I don't like the word gnostic...it has too many close ties with the occult, I think, such as the 'gnostics' of old, and maybe the essenes. Theist?....well, even a muslim would class himself as a theist.
I am basically a Christian. No other title or label. Except maybe a fundie.
I believe in the God of the bible. I believe Jesus Christ died to save me.
And you.
Quote from: "fundie"Strictly speaking, and I know it is splitting hairs, I wouldn't place myself in any of the categories. Gnostic theist? ..... I don't like the word gnostic...it has too many close ties with the occult, I think, such as the 'gnostics' of old, and maybe the essenes. Theist?....well, even a muslim would class himself as a theist.
I am basically a Christian. No other title or label. Except maybe a fundie.
I believe in the God of the bible. I believe Jesus Christ died to save me.
And you.
Well, thanks for believing in me!
As for Agnostic/Gnostic, I'm only using those terms to denote if you claim to have "no knowledge of" or "knowledge of" god. Think of them only in linguistic terms.
By your statement, I would take it you fall in the Gnostic Theist category. You believe in god (theist), and claim knowledge of such (gnostic).
You may want to check it, since they seem under-represented in the poll...
Just my 1/50th of a buck,
JoeActor
Quote from: "MommaSquid"I checked AA. I cannot define or know god, and I believe there is no god. If there is something out there that could be called god, it has nothing to do with the bible or religion.
Can I get an "A Men" to that?
Amen.......and Awomen.
Quote from: "fundie"Theist?....well, even a muslim would class himself as a theist.
I like the way that
EVEN[/i] muslims think they're theists.....
Yes, 4thI
Muslims class themselves as theist. Doesn't make it right.
So do Jews. Doesn't make it right.
There is only one God. The God of Israel.
Manifested in His Son, Jesus Christ (whom the Jews rejected)
Take it or leave it.
A theist is someone who believes in a god...it doesn't matter if you think they are right or not...they are still theists.
BTW, Muslims, Jews, and Christians all believe in the same God...Jews think Christians and Muslims are mislead; Christians think Jews and Muslims are mislead; Muslims think Jews and Christians are mislead. But they all worship the same God that is mentioned in the OT.
The Jews did not reject Christ...they rejected claims that Jesus was Christ, to them he was just misguided or mislead. To Muslims, Jesus was a prophet; holy but not the son of God.
Quote from: "laetusatheos"A theist is someone who believes in a god...it doesn't matter if you think they are right or not...they are still theists.
BTW, Muslims, Jews, and Christians all believe in the same God...Jews think Christians and Muslims are mislead; Christians think Jews and Muslims are mislead; Muslims think Jews and Christians are mislead. But they all worship the same God that is mentioned in the OT.
The Jews did not reject Christ...they rejected claims that Jesus was Christ, to them he was just misguided or mislead. To Muslims, Jesus was a prophet; holy but not the son of God.
What utter crap, laeutusatheos.
They don't all worship the same God. They all CLAIM to worship the same God.
If you don't accept the son, you don't accept the father.
The Jews DID reject Christ. At least, the true Christ. Jesus. They look for another. There is no other. They rejected their one and only source of salvation, and their only connection to God.
This is true for everybody. You either accept Jesus as the final, divine revelation of God, or you reject him. But whatever decision you make is down to you, individually. And you will live by it. Or die by it.
Jesus said: "If you believe not that I am He, you will die in your sins."
As I said before...each one of the religious branches of off the Biblical God think they are right. You may think it is utter crap that their basis is the same...but that's just how it is.
Either way, a theist is not a "christian." It's just someone who believes in a deity. Muslims and Christians both believe in a deity, so they're both theists.
And laetusatheos is right, but I can see how you would reject that, as it would require you to be a little bit objective.
Anyhow, I clicked GA, because I base my "beliefs" on evidence. Evidence doesn't point to a higher power, so I don't belief in a higher power. Until the evidence changes, my position will not change.
I think that claiming to be agnostic simply because you do not have absolute knowledge is kind of silly. I don't have absolute knowledge about the existence of Santa, fire-breathing dragons, or pixies, either, but I'm pretty damn sure they don't exist. It would be just as silly to be agnostic about these fairy tale creatures as it would to be agnostic about god.
The only beliefs I would be agnostic about are perhaps pantheism and deism, but I think both of those are completely not evidence-based and a bit useless, so I don't worry about it.
Quote from: "Court"Either way, a theist is not a "christian." It's just someone who believes in a deity. Muslims and Christians both believe in a deity, so they're both theists.
And laetusatheos is right, but I can see how you would reject that, as it would require you to be a little bit objective.
Anyhow, I clicked GA, because I base my "beliefs" on evidence. Evidence doesn't point to a higher power, so I don't belief in a higher power. Until the evidence changes, my position will not change.
I think that claiming to be agnostic simply because you do not have absolute knowledge is kind of silly. I don't have absolute knowledge about the existence of Santa, fire-breathing dragons, or pixies, either, but I'm pretty damn sure they don't exist. It would be just as silly to be agnostic about these fairy tale creatures as it would to be agnostic about god.
The only beliefs I would be agnostic about are perhaps pantheism and deism, but I think both of those are completely not evidence-based and a bit useless, so I don't worry about it.
i think it makes sense to claim to be agnostic. how are you so sure that santa doesnt exist. no body has proved that he hasnt, because how can you? it doesnt make sense that santa is real but it doesnt mean that he still couldnt be. you can prove something that has one thing to prove, but to disprove something is harder. do you get me? maybe im just talking in circles i have idea, but i am not gonna deny the existance of santa untill i see everyone in the whole world that is living and hes not there. i tend to think that way more. i also think that someone could be reading my mind. im not crazy i just think there is no way to PROVE, that someone is or is not reading my mind. if they could read my mind, why would they tell me. of course i would go insane, because our minds are inside our head so wed always be worrying about what were thinking. maybe im wierd i dont care. think about it though
I think there comes a time when we can come to draw a line between fantasy and reality...the existence of Santa is one of those times. We can look at the history of how the idea of Santa came to exist...that it was based on a real person then became expanded into a mythical character. In essence, the non-existence of a fat old man who lives at the north pole with magic reindeer and elves can be proved to the point that it is absurd to believe it is possible for such a being to exist as described. In the same way, I think it is possible to come to the conclusion that particular god concepts are too absurd to warrant entertaining them as possibilities.
Some negatives are possible to prove...for instance, I can prove that it is not raining right outside my apartment at this very moment to someone who claims otherwise by simply walking outside with them. When we get into extraordinary claims providing proof of a negative becomes less cut and dry simply due to the nature of those claims. But when those extraordinary claims become so specific that they describe a being with given characteristics we reach a point to where the claim can be show to be so absurd that the belief could only rest one's desire to believe it is true.
Ever heard the phrase that goes something like "be open minded but not so much that your brain falls out?" The point of it is that there are numerous things which the human mind has dreamed up as possible but if those ideas are without any proof or reason then we shouldn't be so quick to accept them as probable.
Well I can prove that the Easter Bunny doesn't exist. There is no proof of an antromorphic rabbit running around laying eggs. The closest I've seen is that commercial of that rabbit that craps eggs out of his arse. But he merely clucks. Burden of proof is on the claimant. If you claim there is a 6,000 foot dragon out there watching us masturbate, prove it. Otherwise it is merely a figment of your imagination.