Happy Atheist Forum

HELLO  to  everyone here ,
an intro  to sikhism

literal meaning of a sikh is a learner and  guru  means  a teacher

sikhism was founded by guru nanak dev ji  15 century , in north india (PUNJAB), GURU NANAK sahib was followed by 2nd guru , then upto tenth nanak ,fifth  nanak ji compiled hymns of gurus and few hindus as well as muslims    into a holy book  and  installed at golden temple  amritsar , at his last moments tenth nanak  ordered sikhs that  now onwards this holy book  (GURU GRANTH SAHIB ) is your guru

below are FIRST  lines  from  GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI
à©´ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ à¨...ਕਾਲ ਮà©,ਰਤਿ à¨...ਜà©,ਨੀ ਸੈਭੰ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
One Universal Creator God. The Name Is Truth. Creative Being Personified. No Fear. No Hatred. Image Of The Undying, Beyond Birth, Self-Existent. By Guru's Grace ~

 
॥ ਜਪੁ ॥
Chant And Meditate:

 
ਆਦਿ ਸਚੁ ਜੁਗਾਦਿ ਸਚੁ ॥
True In The Primal Beginning. True Throughout The Ages.

 
ਹੈ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਹੋਸੀ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ ॥੧॥
True Here And Now. O Nanak, Forever And Ever True. ||1||

 
ਸੋਚੈ ਸੋਚਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਸੋਚੀ ਲਖ ਵਾਰ ॥
By thinking, He cannot be reduced to thought, even by thinking hundreds of thousands of times.

 
ਚੁਪੈ ਚੁਪ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਲਾਇ ਰਹਾ ਲਿਵ ਤਾਰ ॥
By remaining silent, inner silence is not obtained, even by remaining lovingly absorbed deep within.

 
ਭੁਖਿਆ ਭੁਖ ਨ ਉਤਰੀ ਜੇ ਬੰਨਾ ਪੁਰੀਆ ਭਾਰ ॥
The hunger of the hungry is not appeased, even by piling up loads of worldly goods.

 
ਸਹਸ ਸਿਆਣਪਾ ਲਖ ਹੋਹਿ ਤ ਇਕ ਨ ਚਲੈ ਨਾਲਿ ॥
Hundreds of thousands of clever tricks, but not even one of them will go along with you in the end.

 
ਕਿਵ ਸਚਿਆਰਾ ਹੋਈਐ ਕਿਵ ਕà©,ੜੈ ਤੁਟੈ ਪਾਲਿ ॥
So how can you become truthful? And how can the veil of illusion be torn away?

 
ਹੁਕਮਿ ਰਜਾਈ ਚਲਣਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਨਾਲਿ ॥੧॥
O Nanak, it is written that you shall obey the Hukam ie His Command, and walk in the Way of His Will. ||1||

 
ਹੁਕਮੀ ਹੋਵਨਿ ਆਕਾਰ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਨ ਕਹਿਆ ਜਾਈ ॥
By His Command, bodies are created; His Command cannot be described.

 
ਹੁਕਮੀ ਹੋਵਨਿ ਜੀà¨... ਹੁਕਮਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਵਡਿਆਈ ॥
By His Command, souls come into being; by His Command, glory and greatness are obtained.

 
ਹੁਕਮੀ ਉਤਮੁ ਨੀਚੁ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਲਿਖਿ ਦੁਖ ਸੁਖ ਪਾਈà¨...ਹਿ ॥
By His Command, some are high and some are low; by His Written Command, pain and pleasure are obtained.

 
ਇਕਨਾ ਹੁਕਮੀ ਬਖਸੀਸ ਇਕਿ ਹੁਕਮੀ ਸਦਾ ਭਵਾਈà¨...ਹਿ ॥
Some, by His Command, are blessed and forgiven; others, by His Command, wander aimlessly forever.

 
ਹੁਕਮੈ à¨...ੰਦਰਿ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਹੁਕਮ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥
Everyone is subject to His Command; no one is beyond His Command.

 
ਨਾਨਕ ਹੁਕਮੈ ਜੇ ਬੁਝੈ ਤ ਹਉਮੈ ਕਹੈ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥੨॥
O Nanak, one who understands His Command, does not speak in ego. ||2

Interesting information.

Just curious, what's the discussion?  

Quotewillravel     Interesting information.

Just curious, what's the discussion?

sir we can discuss anything .

 below ang ie page 4-5 of guru granth sahib


 
ਕਵਣੁ ਸੁ ਵੇਲਾ ਵਖਤੁ ਕਵਣੁ ਕਵਣ ਥਿਤਿ ਕਵਣੁ ਵਾਰੁ ॥
What was that time, and what was that moment? What was that day, and what was that date?

 
ਕਵਣਿ ਸਿ ਰੁਤੀ ਮਾਹੁ ਕਵਣੁ ਜਿਤੁ ਹੋਆ ਆਕਾਰੁ ॥
What was that season, and what was that month, when the Universe was created?

 
ਵੇਲ ਨ ਪਾਈਆ ਪੰਡਤੀ ਜਿ ਹੋਵੈ ਲੇਖੁ ਪੁਰਾਣੁ ॥
The Pandits, the religious scholars, cannot find that time, therefore not  written in the Puraanas.

 
ਵਖਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਇà¨" ਕਾਦੀਆ ਜਿ ਲਿਖਨਿ ਲੇਖੁ ਕੁਰਾਣੁ ॥
That time is not known to the Qazis, who study the Koran.

 
ਥਿਤਿ ਵਾਰੁ ਨਾ ਜੋਗੀ ਜਾਣੈ ਰੁਤਿ ਮਾਹੁ ਨਾ ਕੋਈ ॥
The day and the date are not known to the Yogis, nor is the month or the season.

 
ਜਾ ਕਰਤਾ ਸਿਰਠੀ ਕਉ ਸਾਜੇ ਆਪੇ ਜਾਣੈ ਸੋਈ ॥
The Creator who created this creation-only He Himself knows.

 
ਕਿਵ ਕਰਿ ਆਖਾ ਕਿਵ ਸਾਲਾਹੀ ਕਿਉ ਵਰਨੀ ਕਿਵ ਜਾਣਾ ॥
How can we speak of Him? How can we praise Him? How can we describe Him? How can we know Him?  


 
ਨਾਨਕ ਆਖਣਿ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਆਖੈ ਇਕ ਦà©, ਇਕੁ ਸਿਆਣਾ ॥
O Nanak, everyone speaks of Him, each one wiser than the rest.

 
ਵਡਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਵਡੀ ਨਾਈ ਕੀਤਾ ਜਾ ਕਾ ਹੋਵੈ ॥
Great is the Master, Great is His Name. Whatever happens is according to His Will.

 
ਨਾਨਕ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਆਪੌ ਜਾਣੈ à¨...ਗੈ ਗਇਆ ਨ ਸੋਹੈ ॥੨੧॥
O Nanak, one who claims to know everything shall not be decorated in the world hereafter. ||21||

 
ਪਾਤਾਲਾ ਪਾਤਾਲ ਲਖ ਆਗਾਸਾ ਆਗਾਸ ॥
There are nether worlds beneath nether worlds, and hundreds of thousands of heavenly worlds above.

 
à¨"ੜਕ à¨"ੜਕ ਭਾਲਿ ਥਕੇ ਵੇਦ ਕਹਨਿ ਇਕ ਵਾਤ ॥
The Vedas say that you can search and search for them all, until you grow weary.

 
ਸਹਸ à¨...ਠਾਰਹ ਕਹਨਿ ਕਤੇਬਾ à¨...ਸੁਲà©, ਇਕੁ ਧਾਤੁ ॥
The scriptures say that there are 18,000 worlds, but in reality, there is only One Universe.

 
ਲੇਖਾ ਹੋਇ ਤ ਲਿਖੀਐ ਲੇਖੈ ਹੋਇ ਵਿਣਾਸੁ ॥
If you try to write an account of this, you will surely finish yourself before you finish writing it.

 
ਨਾਨਕ ਵਡਾ ਆਖੀਐ ਆਪੇ ਜਾਣੈ ਆਪੁ ॥੨੨॥
O Nanak, call Him Great! He Himself knows Himself. ||22||

 
ਸਾਲਾਹੀ ਸਾਲਾਹਿ ਏਤੀ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਨ ਪਾਈਆ ॥
The praisers praise the Lord, but they do not obtain intuitive understanding -

 
ਨਦੀਆ à¨...ਤੈ ਵਾਹ ਪਵਹਿ ਸਮੁੰਦਿ ਨ ਜਾਣੀà¨...ਹਿ ॥
the streams and rivers flowing into the ocean do not know its vastness.

 
ਸਮੁੰਦ ਸਾਹ ਸੁਲਤਾਨ ਗਿਰਹਾ ਸੇਤੀ ਮਾਲੁ ਧਨੁ ॥
Even kings and emperors, with mountains of property and oceans of wealth -

 
ਕੀੜੀ ਤੁਲਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਨੀ ਜੇ ਤਿਸੁ ਮਨਹੁ ਨ ਵੀਸਰਹਿ ॥੨੩॥
these are not even equal to an ant, who does not forget God. ||23||

 
à¨...ੰਤੁ ਨ ਸਿਫਤੀ ਕਹਣਿ ਨ à¨...ੰਤੁ ॥
Endless are His Praises, endless are those who speak them.

 
à¨...ੰਤੁ ਨ ਕਰਣੈ ਦੇਣਿ ਨ à¨...ੰਤੁ ॥
Endless are His Actions, endless are His Gifts.

 
à¨...ੰਤੁ ਨ ਵੇਖਣਿ ਸੁਣਣਿ ਨ à¨...ੰਤੁ ॥
Endless is His Vision, endless is His Hearing.

 
à¨...ੰਤੁ ਨ ਜਾਪੈ ਕਿਆ ਮਨਿ ਮੰਤੁ ॥
His limits cannot be perceived. What is the Mystery of His Mind?

 
à¨...ੰਤੁ ਨ ਜਾਪੈ ਕੀਤਾ ਆਕਾਰੁ ॥
The limits of the created universe cannot be perceived.

 
à¨...ੰਤੁ ਨ ਜਾਪੈ ਪਾਰਾਵਾਰੁ ॥
Its limits here and beyond cannot be perceived.

 
à¨...ੰਤ ਕਾਰਣਿ ਕੇਤੇ ਬਿਲਲਾਹਿ ॥
Many struggle to know His limits,

 
ਤਾ ਕੇ à¨...ੰਤ ਨ ਪਾਏ ਜਾਹਿ ॥
but His limits cannot be found.

 
ਏਹੁ à¨...ੰਤੁ ਨ ਜਾਣੈ ਕੋਇ ॥
No one can know these limits.

 
ਬਹੁਤਾ ਕਹੀਐ ਬਹੁਤਾ ਹੋਇ ॥
The more you say about them, the more there still remains to be said.

 
ਵਡਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਊਚਾ ਥਾਉ ॥
Great is the Master, High is His Heavenly Home.

 
ਊਚੇ ਉਪਰਿ ਊਚਾ ਨਾਉ ॥
Highest of the High, above all is His Name.

 
ਏਵਡੁ ਊਚਾ ਹੋਵੈ ਕੋਇ ॥
Only one as Great and as High as God

 
ਤਿਸੁ ਊਚੇ ਕਉ ਜਾਣੈ ਸੋਇ ॥
can know His Lofty and Exalted State.

 
ਜੇਵਡੁ ਆਪਿ ਜਾਣੈ ਆਪਿ ਆਪਿ ॥
Only He Himself is that Great. He Himself knows Himself.

 
ਨਾਨਕ ਨਦਰੀ ਕਰਮੀ ਦਾਤਿ ॥੨੪॥
O Nanak, by His Glance of Grace, He bestows His Blessings. ||24||

 
ਬਹੁਤਾ ਕਰਮੁ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਨਾ ਜਾਇ ॥
His Blessings are so abundant that there can be no written account of them.

 
ਵਡਾ ਦਾਤਾ ਤਿਲੁ ਨ ਤਮਾਇ ॥
The Great Giver does not hold back anything.

 
ਕੇਤੇ ਮੰਗਹਿ ਜੋਧ à¨...ਪਾਰ ॥
There are so many great, heroic warriors begging at the Door of the Infinite Lord.

 
ਕੇਤਿਆ ਗਣਤ ਨਹੀ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥
So many contemplate and dwell upon Him, that they cannot be counted.

 
ਕੇਤੇ ਖਪਿ ਤੁਟਹਿ ਵੇਕਾਰ ॥
So many waste away to death engaged in corruption.

 
ਕੇਤੇ ਲੈ ਲੈ ਮੁਕਰੁ ਪਾਹਿ ॥
So many take and take again, and then deny receiving.

 
ਕੇਤੇ ਮà©,ਰਖ ਖਾਹੀ ਖਾਹਿ ॥
So many foolish consumers keep on consuming.

 
ਕੇਤਿਆ ਦà©,ਖ ਭà©,ਖ ਸਦ ਮਾਰ ॥
So many endure distress, deprivation and constant abuse.

 
ਏਹਿ ਭਿ ਦਾਤਿ ਤੇਰੀ ਦਾਤਾਰ ॥
Even these are Your Gifts, O Great Giver!

 
ਬੰਦਿ ਖਲਾਸੀ ਭਾਣੈ ਹੋਇ ॥
Liberation from bondage comes only by Your Will.

 
ਹੋਰੁ ਆਖਿ ਨ ਸਕੈ ਕੋਇ ॥
No one else has any say in this.

 
ਜੇ ਕੋ ਖਾਇਕੁ ਆਖਣਿ ਪਾਇ ॥
If some fool should presume to say that he does,

 
à¨"ਹੁ ਜਾਣੈ ਜੇਤੀਆ ਮੁਹਿ ਖਾਇ ॥
he shall learn, and feel the effects of his folly.

 
ਆਪੇ ਜਾਣੈ ਆਪੇ ਦੇਇ ॥
He Himself knows, He Himself gives.

 
ਆਖਹਿ ਸਿ ਭਿ ਕੇਈ ਕੇਇ ॥
Few, very few are those who acknowledge this.

 
ਜਿਸ ਨੋ ਬਖਸੇ ਸਿਫਤਿ ਸਾਲਾਹ ॥
One who is blessed to sing the Praises of the Lord,

 
ਨਾਨਕ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹੀ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹੁ ॥੨੫॥
O Nanak, is the king of kings. ||25||

 
à¨...ਮੁਲ ਗੁਣ à¨...ਮੁਲ ਵਾਪਾਰ ॥
Priceless are His Virtues, Priceless are His Dealings.

 
à¨...ਮੁਲ ਵਾਪਾਰੀਏ à¨...ਮੁਲ ਭੰਡਾਰ ॥
Priceless are His Dealers, Priceless are His Treasures.

 
à¨...ਮੁਲ ਆਵਹਿ à¨...ਮੁਲ ਲੈ ਜਾਹਿ ॥
Priceless are those who come to Him, Priceless are those who buy from Him.

 
à¨...ਮੁਲ ਭਾਇ à¨...ਮੁਲਾ ਸਮਾਹਿ ॥
Priceless is Love for Him, Priceless is absorption into Him.

 
à¨...ਮੁਲੁ ਧਰਮੁ à¨...ਮੁਲੁ ਦੀਬਾਣੁ ॥
Priceless is the Divine Law of Dharma, Priceless is the Divine Court of Justice.

 
à¨...ਮੁਲੁ ਤੁਲੁ à¨...ਮੁਲੁ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ॥
Priceless are the scales, priceless are the weights.

 
à¨...ਮੁਲੁ ਬਖਸੀਸ à¨...ਮੁਲੁ ਨੀਸਾਣੁ ॥
Priceless are His Blessings, Priceless is His Banner and Insignia.

 
à¨...ਮੁਲੁ ਕਰਮੁ à¨...ਮੁਲੁ ਫੁਰਮਾਣੁ ॥
Priceless is His Mercy, Priceless is His Royal Command.

 
à¨...ਮੁਲੋ à¨...ਮੁਲੁ ਆਖਿਆ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥
Priceless, O Priceless beyond expression!

 
ਆਖਿ ਆਖਿ ਰਹੇ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਇ ॥
Speak of Him continually, and remain absorbed in His Love.

 
ਆਖਹਿ ਵੇਦ ਪਾਠ ਪੁਰਾਣ ॥
The Vedas and the Puraanas speak.

 
ਆਖਹਿ ਪੜੇ ਕਰਹਿ ਵਖਿਆਣ ॥
The scholars speak and lecture.

 
ਆਖਹਿ ਬਰਮੇ ਆਖਹਿ ਇੰਦ ॥
Brahma speaks, Indra speaks.

 
ਆਖਹਿ ਗੋਪੀ ਤੈ ਗੋਵਿੰਦ ॥
The Gopis and Krishna speak.

 
ਆਖਹਿ ਈਸਰ ਆਖਹਿ ਸਿਧ ॥
Shiva speaks, the Siddhas speak.

 
ਆਖਹਿ ਕੇਤੇ ਕੀਤੇ ਬੁਧ ॥
The many created Buddhas speak.

 
ਆਖਹਿ ਦਾਨਵ ਆਖਹਿ ਦੇਵ ॥
The demons speak, the demi-gods speak.

 
ਆਖਹਿ ਸੁਰਿ ਨਰ ਮੁਨਿ ਜਨ ਸੇਵ ॥
The spiritual warriors, the heavenly beings, the silent sages, the humble and serviceful speak.

 
ਕੇਤੇ ਆਖਹਿ ਆਖਣਿ ਪਾਹਿ ॥
Many speak and try to describe Him.

 
ਕੇਤੇ ਕਹਿ ਕਹਿ ਉਠਿ ਉਠਿ ਜਾਹਿ ॥
Many have spoken of Him over and over again, and have then arisen and departed.

 
ਏਤੇ ਕੀਤੇ ਹੋਰਿ ਕਰੇਹਿ ॥
If He were to create as many again as there already are,

 
ਤਾ ਆਖਿ ਨ ਸਕਹਿ ਕੇਈ ਕੇਇ ॥
even then, they could not describe Him.

 
ਜੇਵਡੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਤੇਵਡੁ ਹੋਇ ॥
He is as Great as He wishes to be.

 
ਨਾਨਕ ਜਾਣੈ ਸਾਚਾ ਸੋਇ ॥
O Nanak, the True Lord knows.

 
ਜੇ ਕੋ ਆਖੈ ਬੋਲੁਵਿਗਾੜੁ ॥
If anyone presumes to describe God,

 
ਤਾ ਲਿਖੀਐ ਸਿਰਿ ਗਾਵਾਰਾ ਗਾਵਾਰੁ ॥੨੬॥
he shall be known as the greatest fool of fools! ||26

Quote from: "GURSIKH"ਜੇ ਕੋ ਆਖੈ ਬੋਲੁਵਿਗਾੜੁ ॥
If anyone presumes to describe God,

 
ਤਾ ਲਿਖੀਐ ਸਿਰਿ ਗਾਵਾਰਾ ਗਾਵਾਰੁ ॥੨੬॥
he shall be known as the greatest fool of fools! ||26

If no-one can describe god, what is the purpose of believing in it?

Is Waheguru a personal deity or a pantheistic definition for everything?

"Fascinating story. Did you think about adapting it to the stage?" - Book of House 1:14

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi86.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk86%2Fsolidsquid%2Fhouse-md-promo-season-4_06.jpg&hash=ceb30a911b8d61a9248bd09207b64063b6d2b643)

QuoteBy His Command, bodies are created;

and

QuoteHis Command cannot be described.

Seem to contradict each other as "by his command, bodies are created" seems to describe His Command.
Unless I'm supposed to look at this in a less literal sense and it is to mean that humanity is unable to comprehend the language that His Commands are created with.

I didn't know anything about Sikhs,other then they originally come from Punjab, India; that the Sikh men wear impressive turbans and beards; that there are many Sikhs in the British and Indian Army; and that all Sikhs share the same last name. For that reason I looked it up in Wikipedia, which gives a  very positive view on Sikhism (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikhism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikhism)). Since the Sikh God is undefined and unknowable, one can interpret God as the Universe itself.

Interesting intro to Sikh. Thanks. A little long, but good. Many of the quotations are universal and appear in many forms and different religions, as well as in secular philosophy. Seeking truth, etc. is pretty universal (at least I like to think so).

Reminder to all that this is the proper place in the forum to post this kind of thing and to please be respectful in replies. I'm sure i won't become a sikh any time soon, but it's nice to hear about it first hand.

Hi GURSIKH, why don't you tell a little more about yourself. You cut and paste a lot of texts in your messages, which leaves little room for discussion and  doesn't bring much either. Many people, including  me tend to skip very long "cut and paste" messages. better would be to provide us a link where the (translated) texts can be found, so that everyone who is interested in your religion can read it for themselves.

hello

Quotejolly sapper  wrote
  " By His Command, bodies are created;

and

His Command cannot be described. "


Seem to contradict each other

dear nothing is contradictory  there ,both line are true ,HE do everyting and none knows

guru ganth sahib 1250  says
ਰਾਜਾਸ੍ਰਮ ਮਿਤਿ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਨੀ ਤੇਰੀ ॥
O God, I know not the limit of Thine Royal place.

 
ਤੇਰੇ ਸੰਤਨ ਕੀ ਹਉ ਚੇਰੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
I am the hand-maiden of Thine saints. Pause.

 
ਹਸਤੋ ਜਾਇ ਸੁ ਰੋਵਤੁ ਆਵੈ ਰੋਵਤੁ ਜਾਇ ਸੁ ਹਸੈ ॥
He, who goes laughing, returns weeping  and he, who goes weeping, returns laughing.

 
ਬਸਤੋ ਹੋਇ ਹੋਇ ਸ ਊਜਰੁ ਊਜਰੁ ਹੋਇ ਸੁ ਬਸੈ ॥੧॥
What is inhabited, that becomes deserted and what is deserted that becomes inhabited.

 
ਜਲ ਤੇ ਥਲ ਕਰਿ ਥਲ ਤੇ ਕà©,ਆ ਕà©,ਪ ਤੇ ਮੇਰੁ ਕਰਾਵੈ ॥
The Lord turns water into desert and desert into a well and from a well, He makes a mountain.

 
ਧਰਤੀ ਤੇ ਆਕਾਸਿ ਚਢਾਵੈ ਚਢੇ à¨...ਕਾਸਿ ਗਿਰਾਵੈ ॥੨॥
From the earth, God raises man to the sky and when he has ascended to the sky, He dashes him down.

 
ਭੇਖਾਰੀ ਤੇ ਰਾਜੁ ਕਰਾਵੈ ਰਾਜਾ ਤੇ ਭੇਖਾਰੀ ॥
A beggar, He makes rule an empire    and a king, He turns into a beggar.

 
ਖਲ ਮà©,ਰਖ ਤੇ ਪੰਡਿਤੁ ਕਰਿਬੋ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਤੇ ਮੁਗਧਾਰੀ ॥੩॥
From an idiot and a blackhead God makes a scholar and from a scholar a  fool

 
ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਸਾਧà©, ਕੋ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਮੁ ਤਿਸੁ ਮà©,ਰਤਿ ਬਲਿਹਾਰੀ ॥੪॥੨॥
Says Kabir, God is the Beloved of His saints, Unto His vision, I am a sacrifice.
 

thanx mcq  for your  kind gesture

Quotemcq wrote   I'm sure i won't become a sikh any time soon

guru wants  every one to be a  good human beeing , where there is no hatred , and  there is no question  unanswared , where there is always a victory  , love and peace .

guru  asks a hindu to be a good hindu , a muslim a good muslim , a yogi  a good yogi , same apply to you

PLZ WITH A PATIENCE  READ EACH  FOLLOWING LINE ,  
following for a muslim guru sahib says
 

ਹੋਇ ਪੈ ਖਾਕ ਫਕੀਰ ਮੁਸਾਫਰੁ ਇਹੁ ਦਰਵੇਸੁ ਕਬà©,ਲੁ ਦਰਾ ॥੧॥
Become the dust of the feet of the humble fakeers, and consider yourself a traveler on this journey. O saintly dervish, you shall be approved in the Court of the Lord. ||1||

 
ਸਚੁ ਨਿਵਾਜ ਯਕੀਨ ਮੁਸਲਾ ॥
Let Truth be your NIMAJ (muslim prayer), and faith your prayer-mat.
 
ਦਸ à¨...ਉਰਾਤ ਰਖਹੁ ਬਦ ਰਾਹੀ ॥
restrain the sensory organs from straying into evil.

 
ਪੰਚ ਮਰਦ ਸਿਦਕਿ ਲੇ ਬਾਧਹੁ ਖੈਰਿ ਸਬà©,ਰੀ ਕਬà©,ਲ ਪਰਾ ॥੪॥
Tie up the five demons of desire with faith, charity and contentment, and you shall be acceptable. ||4||
 
 à¨¸à¨šà© ਕਮਾਵੈ ਸੋਈ ਕਾਜੀ ॥
He alone is a Qazi, who practices the Truth.

 
ਜੋ ਦਿਲੁ ਸੋਧੈ ਸੋਈ ਹਾਜੀ ॥
He alone is a Haji, a pilgrim to Mecca, who purifies his heart.

 à¨®à©à¨¸à¨²à¨®à¨¾à¨£à© ਮੋਮ ਦਿਲਿ ਹੋਵੈ ॥
To be Muslim is to be kind-hearted,

 
à¨...ੰਤਰ ਕੀ ਮਲੁ ਦਿਲ ਤੇ ਧੋਵੈ ॥
and wash away pollution from within the heart.
 


to  yogi  guru sahib  says to become  a good yogi

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

 
ਜੋਗੁ ਨ ਖਿੰਥਾ ਜੋਗੁ ਨ ਡੰਡੈ ਜੋਗੁ ਨ ਭਸਮ ਚੜਾਈਐ ॥
Yoga is not the patched coat, Yoga is not the walking stick. Yoga is not smearing the body with ashes.

 
ਜੋਗੁ ਨ ਮੁੰਦੀ ਮà©,ੰਡਿ ਮੁਡਾਇਐ ਜੋਗੁ ਨ ਸਿੰਙੀ ਵਾਈਐ ॥
Yoga is not the ear-rings, and not the shaven head. Yoga is not the blowing of the horn.

 
à¨...ੰਜਨ ਮਾਹਿ ਨਿਰੰਜਨਿ ਰਹੀਐ ਜੋਗ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਇਵ ਪਾਈਐ ॥੧॥
Remaining unblemished in the midst of the filth of the world - this is the way to attain Yoga. ||1||

 
ਗਲੀ ਜੋਗੁ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥
By mere words, Yoga is not attained.

 
ਏਕ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਕਰਿ ਸਮਸਰਿ ਜਾਣੈ ਜੋਗੀ ਕਹੀਐ ਸੋਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
One who looks upon all with a single eye, and knows them to be one and the same - he alone is known as a Yogi. ||1||Pause||

 
ਜੋਗੁ ਨ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਮੜੀ ਮਸਾਣੀ ਜੋਗੁ ਨ ਤਾੜੀ ਲਾਈਐ ॥
Yoga is not wandering to the tombs of the dead; Yoga is not sitting in trances.

 
ਜੋਗੁ ਨ ਦੇਸਿ ਦਿਸੰਤਰਿ ਭਵਿਐ ਜੋਗੁ ਨ ਤੀਰਥਿ ਨਾਈਐ ॥
Yoga is not wandering through foreign lands; Yoga is not bathing at sacred shrines of pilgrimage.

 
à¨...ੰਜਨ ਮਾਹਿ ਨਿਰੰਜਨਿ ਰਹੀਐ ਜੋਗ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਇਵ ਪਾਈਐ ॥੨॥
Remaining unblemished in the midst of the filth of the world - this is the way to attain Yoga. ||2||

 
ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਭੇਟੈ ਤਾ ਸਹਸਾ ਤà©,ਟੈ ਧਾਵਤੁ ਵਰਜਿ ਰਹਾਈਐ ॥
Meeting with the True Guru, doubt is dispelled, and the wandering mind is restrained.

 
ਨਿਝਰੁ ਝਰੈ ਸਹਜ ਧੁਨਿ ਲਾਗੈ ਘਰ ਹੀ ਪਰਚਾ ਪਾਈਐ ॥
Nectar rains down, celestial music resounds, and deep within, wisdom is obtained.

 
à¨...ੰਜਨ ਮਾਹਿ ਨਿਰੰਜਨਿ ਰਹੀਐ ਜੋਗ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਇਵ ਪਾਈਐ ॥੩॥
Remaining unblemished in the midst of the filth of the world - this is the way to attain Yoga. ||3||

 
ਨਾਨਕ ਜੀਵਤਿਆ ਮਰਿ ਰਹੀਐ ਐਸਾ ਜੋਗੁ ਕਮਾਈਐ ॥
O Nanak, remain dead while yet alive - practice such a Yoga.

 
ਵਾਜੇ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਸਿੰਙੀ ਵਾਜੈ ਤਉ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਪਦੁ ਪਾਈਐ ॥
When the horn is blown without being blown, then you shall attain the state of fearless dignity.

 
à¨...ੰਜਨ ਮਾਹਿ ਨਿਰੰਜਨਿ ਰਹੀਐ ਜੋਗ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਤਉ ਪਾਈਐ ॥੪॥੧॥੮॥
Remaining unblemished in the midst of the filth of the world - this is the way to attain Yoga. ||4||1||8
 


not writing for many others , already long post  , sorry,  THANX

Quoteby Willravel  

Is Waheguru a personal deity or a pantheistic definition for everything?

waheguru is not a diety  ,HE IS formless and  beyond time ie  not within space time coordinate  

à©´ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ à¨...ਕਾਲ ਮà©,ਰਤਿ à¨...ਜà©,ਨੀ ਸੈਭੰ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
There is but one God(waheguru). True is His Name, creative His personality and immortal His form. He is without fear sans enmity, unborn and self-illumined. By the Guru's grace He is obtained.

Quoteby Asmodean

GURSIKH wrote:
ਜੇ ਕੋ ਆਖੈ ਬੋਲੁਵਿਗਾੜੁ ॥
If anyone presumes to describe God,


ਤਾ ਲਿਖੀਐ ਸਿਰਿ ਗਾਵਾਰਾ ਗਾਵਾਰੁ ॥੨੬॥
he shall be known as the greatest fool of fools! ||26

If no-one can describe god, what is the purpose of believing in it  ?

purpose  of believing  god  is to become  god .

hello tom  

here is link to  the entire  guru granth sahib ji , you can enter any page no

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurban ... =1&p=0&k=0 (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=1&g=1&h=0&r=0&t=1&p=0&k=0)

Quotesquid    Fascinating story. Did you think about adapting it to the stage?" - Book of House 1:14

sorry  i m unable to understand ????

here is link to the entire guru granth sahib ji , you can enter any page no
http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurban ... =1&p=0&k=0 (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=1&g=1&h=0&r=0&t=1&p=0&k=0)

Quotesikhism was founded by guru nanak dev ji

how can he know about god if it is said:

QuoteIf anyone presumes to describe God, he shall be known as the greatest fool of fools!

QuoteBy thinking, He cannot be reduced to thought, even by thinking hundreds of thousands of times.

Didn't the guru use his mind to create sikhism and an understanding of god?

Why is it foolish to describe god? Isn't that the purpose of the religion? Also if god is inconceivable, how does anyone know anything about him?

Quote from: "GURSIKH"hello tom  

here is link to  the entire  guru granth sahib ji , you can enter any page no

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurban ... =1&p=0&k=0 (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=1&g=1&h=0&r=0&t=1&p=0&k=0)

I had a look at the site and selected approx. 20 pages randomly (there are more than 1400 of them). I must honestly admit that I found them interesting but rather boring, because all the pages looked the same to me. Page after page after page about how God is so great and anything else is noting but a worm is not really something that interest me. To find true wisdom in the guru's texts is like looking for a needle in a haystack.

QuoteTom  I must honestly admit that I found them interesting but rather boring, because all the pages looked the same to me. Page after page after page about how God is so great and anything else is noting but a worm is not really something that interest me  

I can understand dear, He alone knows the importance of these words , who feels the pain


 à©´ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

 
à¨...ਹਿਨਿਸਿ ਜਾਗੈ ਨੀਦ ਨ ਸੋਵੈ ॥
Day and night, he remains awake and aware; he never sleeps or dreams.

 
ਸੋ ਜਾਣੈ ਜਿਸੁ ਵੇਦਨ ਹੋਵੈ ॥
He alone knows this, who feels the pain of separation from God.

 
ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਕੇ ਕਾਨ ਲਗੇ ਤਨ ਭੀਤਰਿ ਵੈਦੁ ਕਿ ਜਾਣੈ ਕਾਰੀ ਜੀਉ ॥੧॥
My body is pierced through with the arrow of love. How can any physician know the cure? ||1||

 
ਜਿਸ ਨੋ ਸਾਚਾ ਸਿਫਤੀ ਲਾਏ ॥
Whom the True Lord links to His Praise,

 
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਵਿਰਲੇ ਕਿਸੈ ਬੁਝਾਏ ॥
that rare one, as Gurmukh, understands.

 
à¨...ੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਕੀ ਸਾਰ ਸੋਈ ਜਾਣੈ ਜਿ à¨...ੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਕਾ ਵਾਪਾਰੀ ਜੀਉ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
He alone appreciates the value of the Ambsosial Nectar, who deals in this Ambrosia. ||1||Pause||

 
ਪਿਰ ਸੇਤੀ ਧਨ ਪ੍ਰੇਮੁ ਰਚਾਏ ॥
The soul-bride is in love with her Husband Lord;

 
ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਤਥਾ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਏ ॥
the bride focuses her consciousness on the Word of the Guru .

Quotejcm  - Didn't the guru use his mind to create sikhism and an understanding of god?

yes guru didn't used  his mind to create sikhism bcoz he sold his mind to god as guru nanak says

ਜਿਉ ਬੁਲਾਵਹੁ ਤਿਉ ਨਾਨਕ ਦਾਸ ਬੋਲੈ ॥੮॥੨੧॥
As You inspire me  to speak, O Lord, so does servant Nanak speak. ||8||21||

QuoteWhy is it foolish to decribe god?

because  a fish can 't describe ocean


ਕੋਟਿ ਕੋਟੀ ਮੇਰੀ ਆਰਜਾ ਪਵਣੁ ਪੀà¨...ਣੁ à¨...ਪਿਆਉ ॥
If I could live for millions and millions of years, and if the air was my food and drink,

 
ਚੰਦੁ ਸà©,ਰਜੁ ਦੁਇ ਗੁਫੈ ਨ ਦੇਖਾ ਸੁਪਨੈ ਸਉਣ ਨ ਥਾਉ ॥
and if I lived in a cave and never saw either the sun or the moon, and if I never slept, even in dreams -

 
ਭੀ ਤੇਰੀ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਨਾ ਪਵੈ ਹਉ ਕੇਵਡੁ ਆਖਾ ਨਾਉ ॥੧॥
even so, I could not estimate Your Value. How can I describe the Greatness of Your Name? ||1||

 
ਸਾਚਾ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ਨਿਜ ਥਾਇ ॥
The True Lord, the Formless One, is Himself in His Own Place.

 
ਸੁਣਿ ਸੁਣਿ ਆਖਣੁ ਆਖਣਾ ਜੇ ਭਾਵੈ ਕਰੇ ਤਮਾਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
I have heard, over and over again, and so I tell the tale; as it pleases You, Lord, please instill within me the yearning for You. ||1||Pause||

 
ਕੁਸਾ ਕਟੀਆ ਵਾਰ ਵਾਰ ਪੀਸਣਿ ਪੀਸਾ ਪਾਇ ॥
If I was slashed and cut into pieces, over and over again, and put into the mill and ground into flour,

 
à¨...ਗੀ ਸੇਤੀ ਜਾਲੀਆ ਭਸਮ ਸੇਤੀ ਰਲਿ ਜਾਉ ॥
burnt by fire and mixed with ashes -

 
ਭੀ ਤੇਰੀ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਨਾ ਪਵੈ ਹਉ ਕੇਵਡੁ ਆਖਾ ਨਾਉ ॥੨॥
even then, I could not estimate Your Value. How can I describe the Greatness of Your Name? ||2||

 
ਪੰਖੀ ਹੋਇ ਕੈ ਜੇ ਭਵਾ ਸੈ à¨...ਸਮਾਨੀ ਜਾਉ ॥
If I was a bird, soaring and flying through hundreds of heavens,

 
ਨਦਰੀ ਕਿਸੈ ਨ ਆਵਊ ਨਾ ਕਿਛੁ ਪੀਆ ਨ ਖਾਉ ॥
and if I was invisible, neither eating nor drinking anything -

 
ਭੀ ਤੇਰੀ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਨਾ ਪਵੈ ਹਉ ਕੇਵਡੁ ਆਖਾ ਨਾਉ ॥੩॥
even so, I could not estimate Your Value. How can I describe the Greatness of Your Name? ||3

ਨਾਨਕ ਕਾਗਦ ਲਖ ਮਣਾ ਪੜਿ ਪੜਿ ਕੀਚੈ ਭਾਉ ॥
O Nanak, if I had hundreds of thousands of stacks of paper, and if I were to read and recite and embrace love for the Lord,

 
ਮਸà©, ਤੋਟਿ ਨ ਆਵਈ ਲੇਖਣਿ ਪਉਣੁ ਚਲਾਉ ॥
and if ink were never to fail me, and if my pen were able to move like the wind -

 
ਭੀ ਤੇਰੀ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਨਾ ਪਵੈ ਹਉ ਕੇਵਡੁ ਆਖਾ ਨਾਉ ॥੪॥੨॥
even so, I could not estimate Your Value. How can I describe the Greatness of Your Name? ||4||2||

Quote from: "GURSIKH"purpose  of believing  god  is to become  god .

Which in turn is quite useless unless you have someone lined up to worship you.

Quote from: "GURSIKH"purpose  of believing  god  is to become  god .

if you can not describe god and the purpose is the become god, how do you know when you are god if you can not describe god?

Quote from: "jcm"

Quote from: "GURSIKH"purpose  of believing  god  is to become  god .

if you can not describe god and the purpose is the become god, how do you know when you are god if you can not describe god?

Applying a fair amount of circular logic usually helps.  

I don't know what the point of this thread is.

Quotejcm - if you can not describe god and the purpose is the become god, how do you know when you are god if you can not describe god?

à¨...ਬ ਤਬ ਜਬ ਕਬ ਤੁਹੀ ਤੁਹੀ ॥
Now and then, here and there, You, only You.

ਹਮ ਤੁà¨... ਪਰਸਾਦਿ ਸੁਖੀ ਸਦ ਹੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
By Your Grace, I am forever in peace. |Pause|

à¨...ਬ ਤਉ ਜਾਇ ਚਢੇ ਸਿੰਘਾਸਨਿ ਮਿਲੇ ਹੈ ਸਾਰਿੰਗਪਾਨੀ ॥
Now, I have mounted to the throne of the Lord; I have met the Lord, the Sustainer of the World.

ਰਾਮ ਕਬੀਰਾ ਏਕ ਭਏ ਹੈ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਸਕੈ ਪਛਾਨੀ ॥
The Lord and Kabeer have become one. No one can tell them apart. ||
 
and  also

ਤੋਹੀ ਮੋਹੀ ਮੋਹੀ ਤੋਹੀ à¨...ੰਤਰੁ ਕੈਸਾ ॥
You are me, and I am You-what is the difference between us?

ਕਨਕ ਕਟਿਕ ਜਲ ਤਰੰਗ ਜੈਸਾ ॥
We are like gold and the bracelet, or water and the waves. |

ਪ੍ਰਭ ਤੇ ਜਨੁ ਜਾਨੀਜੈ ਜਨ ਤੇ ਸੁਆਮੀ ॥
The servant is known by his God, and the Lord and Master is known by His servant. |

ਰਵਿਦਾਸ ਸਮ ਦਲ ਸਮਝਾਵੈ ਕੋਊ ॥
O Ravi Daas, one who understands that the Lord is equally in all, is   very rare .

Quote from: "GURSIKH"

Quoteby Willravel  

Is Waheguru a personal deity or a pantheistic definition for everything?

waheguru is not a diety  ,HE IS formless and  beyond time ie  not within space time coordinate  

à©´ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ à¨...ਕਾਲ ਮà©,ਰਤਿ à¨...ਜà©,ਨੀ ਸੈਭੰ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
There is but one God(waheguru). True is His Name, creative His personality and immortal His form. He is without fear sans enmity, unborn and self-illumined. By the Guru's grace He is obtained.

So Sikhism is pantheism?

QuoteAsmodean  

GURSIKH wrote:
purpose of believing god is to become god .

Which in turn is quite useless unless you have someone lined up to worship you.

no linig up is required , only one breath is required

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

 
ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਇਫਤਰਾ ਭਾਈ ਦਿਲ ਕਾ ਫਿਕਰੁ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥
The Vedas and the Scriptures are only make-believe, O Siblings of Destiny; they do not relieve the anxiety of the heart.

 
ਟੁਕੁ ਦਮੁ ਕਰਾਰੀ ਜਉ ਕਰਹੁ ਹਾਜਿਰ ਹਜà©,ਰਿ ਖੁਦਾਇ ॥੧॥
If you will only center yourself on the Lord, even for just a breath, then you shall see the Lord face-to-face, present before you. ||1||

 
ਬੰਦੇ ਖੋਜੁ ਦਿਲ ਹਰ ਰੋਜ ਨਾ ਫਿਰੁ ਪਰੇਸਾਨੀ ਮਾਹਿ ॥
O human being, search your own heart every day, and do not wander around in confusion.

 
ਇਹ ਜੁ ਦੁਨੀਆ ਸਿਹਰੁ ਮੇਲਾ ਦਸਤਗੀਰੀ ਨਾਹਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
This world is just a magic-show; no one will be holding your hand. ||1||Pause||

 
ਦਰੋਗੁ ਪੜਿ ਪੜਿ ਖੁਸੀ ਹੋਇ ਬੇਖਬਰ ਬਾਦੁ ਬਕਾਹਿ ॥
Reading and studying falsehood, people are happy; in their ignorance, they speak nonsense.

 
ਹਕੁ ਸਚੁ ਖਾਲਕੁ ਖਲਕ ਮਿਆਨੇ ਸਿਆਮ ਮà©,ਰਤਿ ਨਾਹਿ ॥੨॥
The True Creator Lord is diffused into His creation; He is not just the dark-skinned Krishna of legends. ||2||

 
à¨...ਸਮਾਨ ‍ਿਮ੍ਯ੍ਯਨੇ ਲਹੰਗ ਦਰੀਆ ਗੁਸਲ ਕਰਦਨ ਬà©,ਦ ॥
Through the Tenth Gate, the stream of nectar flows; take your bath in this.

 
ਕਰਿ ਫਕਰੁ ਦਾਇਮ ਲਾਇ ਚਸਮੇ ਜਹ ਤਹਾ ਮਉਜà©,ਦੁ ॥੩॥
Serve the Lord forever; use your eyes, and see Him ever-present everywhere. ||3||

 
à¨...ਲਾਹ ਪਾਕੰ ਪਾਕ ਹੈ ਸਕ ਕਰਉ ਜੇ ਦà©,ਸਰ ਹੋਇ ॥
The Lord is the purest of the pure; only through doubt could there be another.

 
ਕਬੀਰ ਕਰਮੁ ਕਰੀਮ ਕਾ ਉਹੁ ਕਰੈ ਜਾਨੈ ਸੋਇ ॥੪॥੧॥
O Kabeer, mercy flows from the Merciful Lord; He alone knows who acts. ||4||1||

QuoteWillravel -So Sikhism is pantheism?

you can say , everything is god , you are god , i am god   nothing  else .

Quote from: "GURSIKH"

QuoteWillravel -So Sikhism is pantheism?

you can say , everything is god , you are god , i am god   nothing  else .

If god is everything, why use the word god? It seems a little misleading considering what the majority of people on Earth think of as god. Why not just use the word "everything"? Do you worship "everything"?

QuoteWILL  -If god is everything, why use the word god? It seems a little misleading considering what the majority of people on Earth think of as god. Why not just use the word "everything"? Do you worship "everything"?

HELLO dear let  me clear my point ,

yes GOD   lives  in everyone of us  , but everyone can't be worshipped bcoz  

consider a  diamond  that  is covered with   dust ,dirt or filth  . no doubt  it  is  diamond  but  it is worthless  without  light  ,  same  is case  we are  covered  with  the filth of   lust  , anger , greed  , ego  ....  the light within us is blocked by this dust , there  is darkness , we are anaware  of our value  ,  our strength , ....

this filth  or darkness   can  only be   removed   by   GURUS words ,  

ਜੇ ਸਉ ਚੰਦਾ ਉਗਵਹਿ ਸà©,ਰਜ ਚੜਹਿ ਹਜਾਰ ॥
If a hundred moons were to rise, and a thousand suns appeared,

 
ਏਤੇ ਚਾਨਣ ਹੋਦਿਆà¨, ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਘੋਰ à¨...ੰਧਾਰ ॥੨॥
even with such light, there would still be pitch darkness without the Guru. ||2||
 


and

ਗੁਰ ਵਿਣੁ ਸਹਜੁ ਨ ਆਵਈ ਲੋਭੁ ਮੈਲੁ ਨ ਵਿਚਹੁ ਜਾਇ ॥
Without the Guru, intuitive wisdom does not come, and the filth of greed does not depart from within.

 
ਖਿਨੁ ਪਲੁ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਮਨਿ ਵਸੈ ਸਭ à¨...ਠਸਠਿ ਤੀਰਥ ਨਾਇ ॥
If the Lord's Name abides within the mind, for a moment, even for an instant, it is like bathing at all the sixty-eight sacred shrines of pilgrimage.

 
ਸਚੇ ਮੈਲੁ ਨ ਲਗਈ ਮਲੁ ਲਾਗੈ ਦà©,ਜੈ ਭਾਇ ॥
Filth does not stick to those who are true, but filth attaches itself to those who love duality.

 
ਧੋਤੀ ਮà©,ਲਿ ਨ ਉਤਰੈ ਜੇ à¨...ਠਸਠਿ ਤੀਰਥ ਨਾਇ ॥
This filth cannot be washed off, even by bathing at the sixty-eight sacred shrines of pilgrimage.

 
ਮਨਮੁਖ ਕਰਮ ਕਰੇ à¨...ਹੰਕਾਰੀ ਸਭੁ ਦੁਖੋ ਦੁਖੁ ਕਮਾਇ ॥
The self-willed manmukh does deeds in egotism; he earns only pain and more pain.

 
ਨਾਨਕ ਮੈਲਾ ਊਜਲੁ ਤਾ ਥੀਐ ਜਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਮਾਹਿ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੧॥
O Nanak, the filthy ones become clean only when they meet and surrender to the True Guru. ||1||



for more dear you can go to  
http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurban ... am=punjabi (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Search&Param=punjabi)

Quote from: "Martian"I don't know what the point of this thread is.

we do not end our sentences with prepositions.

Quote from: "GURSIKH"yes GOD   lives  in everyone of us  , but everyone can't be worshipped bcoz  

consider a  diamond  that  is covered with   dust ,dirt or filth  . no doubt  it  is  diamond  but  it is worthless  without  light  ,  same  is case  we are  covered  with  the filth of   lust  , anger , greed  , ego  ....  the light within us is blocked by this dust , there  is darkness , we are anaware  of our value  ,  our strength , ....

this filth  or darkness  can  only be   removed   by   GURUS words

So what your saying is that...

A Guru's words can only remove this filth, hence a Guru is blessed & the Guru is free of any filth. So to worship God i can worship this Guru; this Guru can be used as a median basically. Right?

QuoteRISKY WROTE -So what your saying is that...

A Guru's words can only remove this filth, hence a Guru is blessed & the Guru is free of any filth. So to worship God i can worship this Guru; this Guru can be used as a median basically. Right?

yes dear i m  saying  the  same  bcoz  my guru  also says the  same  after churning  the  ocean


ਸਮੁੰਦੁ ਵਿਰੋਲਿ ਸਰੀਰੁ ਹਮ ਦੇਖਿਆ ਇਕ ਵਸਤੁ à¨...ਨà©,ਪ ਦਿਖਾਈ ॥
I have churned the ocean of the body, and I have seen the incomparable thing come into view.

 
ਗੁਰ ਗੋਵਿੰਦੁ ਗਵਿੰਦੁ ਗੁਰà©, ਹੈ ਨਾਨਕ ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਭਾਈ ॥੪॥੧॥੮॥
The Guru is God, and God is the Guru, O Nanak; there is no difference between the two, O Siblings of Destiny. ||4||1||8||

Quote from: "Asmodean"Applying a fair amount of circular logic usually helps.  

thanks, i'll keep that in mind.

Quote from: "GURSIKH"

Quotejcm - if you can not describe god and the purpose is the become god, how do you know when you are god if you can not describe god?

à¨...ਬ ਤਬ ਜਬ ਕਬ ਤੁਹੀ ਤੁਹੀ ॥
Now and then, here and there, You, only You.

ਹਮ ਤੁà¨... ਪਰਸਾਦਿ ਸੁਖੀ ਸਦ ਹੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
By Your Grace, I am forever in peace. |Pause|

à¨...ਬ ਤਉ ਜਾਇ ਚਢੇ ਸਿੰਘਾਸਨਿ ਮਿਲੇ ਹੈ ਸਾਰਿੰਗਪਾਨੀ ॥
Now, I have mounted to the throne of the Lord; I have met the Lord, the Sustainer of the World.

ਰਾਮ ਕਬੀਰਾ ਏਕ ਭਏ ਹੈ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਸਕੈ ਪਛਾਨੀ ॥
The Lord and Kabeer have become one. No one can tell them apart. ||
 
and  also

ਤੋਹੀ ਮੋਹੀ ਮੋਹੀ ਤੋਹੀ à¨...ੰਤਰੁ ਕੈਸਾ ॥
You are me, and I am You-what is the difference between us?

ਕਨਕ ਕਟਿਕ ਜਲ ਤਰੰਗ ਜੈਸਾ ॥
We are like gold and the bracelet, or water and the waves. |

ਪ੍ਰਭ ਤੇ ਜਨੁ ਜਾਨੀਜੈ ਜਨ ਤੇ ਸੁਆਮੀ ॥
The servant is known by his God, and the Lord and Master is known by His servant. |

ਰਵਿਦਾਸ ਸਮ ਦਲ ਸਮਝਾਵੈ ਕੋਊ ॥
O Ravi Daas, one who understands that the Lord is equally in all, is   very rare .

oh boy get a mop, more verse vomit

Quote from: "GURSIKH"sikhism was founded by guru nanak dev ji  15 century , in north india (PUNJAB), GURU NANAK sahib was followed by 2nd guru , then upto tenth nanak ,fifth  nanak ji compiled hymns of gurus and few hindus as well as muslims    into a holy book  and  installed at golden temple  amritsar , at his last moments tenth nanak  ordered sikhs that  now onwards this holy book  (GURU GRANTH SAHIB ) is your guru

So this 'holy' book is a mixture of Hinduism & Islam & Guru Wisdom? So you basically base Sikhism off two religions & Wisdom from Gurus... O_o

And you also worship Guru Nanak dev ji or Guru Granth Sahib which were men on earth that were the embodiment of God or something? How about the other 8 Gurus?

GURSIKH, are you capable of discussing what you seem to be trying to tell us with your endless spamming of verses, WITHOUT spamming said verses?

Other than continually expounding on the greatness of God and Nanak, those verses don't really say anything.  I am trying to keep an open mind, but frankly at this point my brain hurts.

sorry  faithless , i don't  want to hurt anyone  , i m quiting the  forum  ,plz   be happy  as is the name of the forum .  

 just  one   reply  to  risky  

Quoterisky    So this 'holy' book is a mixture of  hindu ism & Islam & Guru Wisdom? So you basically base Sikhism off two religions & Wisdom from Gurus... O_o

And you also worship Guru Nanak dev ji or Guru Granth Sahib which were men on earth that were the embodiment of God or something? How about the other 8 Gurus?

dear below is little more abt sikhism ,

sikhism is not mixture of hinduism  and  islam  

guru nanak  did not  accepted  worship  of   dieties or idols  and   rituals  ,  gurus rejected  all the vedas  and puranas   the hindu scripture

when guru  nanak was younger   , the hindu preist tried to tie sacred  thread to him

my beloved  replied ਦਇਆ ਕਪਾਹ ਸੰਤੋਖੁ ਸà©,ਤੁ ਜਤੁ ਗੰਢੀ ਸਤੁ ਵਟੁ ॥
Make compassion the cotton, contentment the thread, modesty the knot and truth the twist.

 
ਏਹੁ ਜਨੇਊ ਜੀà¨... ਕਾ ਹਈ ਤ ਪਾਡੇ ਘਤੁ ॥
This is the sacred thread of the soul; if you have it, then go ahead and put it on me.

 
ਨਾ ਏਹੁ ਤੁਟੈ ਨ ਮਲੁ ਲਗੈ ਨਾ ਏਹੁ ਜਲੈ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥
It does not break, it cannot be soiled by filth, it cannot be burnt, or lost.

 
ਧੰਨੁ ਸੁ ਮਾਣਸ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਜੋ ਗਲਿ ਚਲੇ ਪਾਇ ॥
Blessed are those mortal beings, O Nanak, who wear such a thread around their necks


[attachment=0:211dd3p0]gtfront.jpg[/attachment:211dd3p0]

Quoterisky -[How about the other 8 Gurus?/quote]

dear  all  guru  s use  name  NANAK  as  signature in  their verses , ie  not only  first nanak   s but 2, 3, 4 , 5 ,9  ,10   th gurus verses  are  given under the name nanak .

dear  5th nanak  was  martyed by mughal  empror  jahangir , son of akbar

i can provide you original  words of jahangir  from his biography , he viewed guru as threat to islam .[attachment=2:3ssj1p70]martyrdomofarjandev.jpg[/attachment:3ssj1p70]

sixth guru HARGOBIND JI defended  his faith  and wore two  swords  MIRI AND PIRI , he built  a THRONE   known  as  AKAAL  THAKT  just  opposite to golden temple[attachment=1:3ssj1p70]guru_hargobind.jpg[/attachment:3ssj1p70]

ninth nanak  teg bahadur ji was also beheaded  by  mughal emporer aurangjeb  at  chandni chownk dehli  along with other sikhs
http://www.sikh-heritage.co.uk/Martyrs/ ... tiDyal.htm (http://www.sikh-heritage.co.uk/Martyrs/matisatidyal/MatiSatiDyal.htm)

tenth nanak  guru gobind singh  created khalsa panth in 1699 , gave a name singh  to all sikhs , singh means a lion , he order sikhs to grow kesh (beard ) and tie a turban  as a crown
tenth gurus   little four sons are also killed by  aurangjeb[attachment=0:3ssj1p70]300px-Sahibzaadey_being_Bricked_Alive.jpg[/attachment:3ssj1p70]


WAHEGURU GI  KA KHALSA  (  PURE BELONGS TO GOD )

WAHEGURU  GI KI  FATEH    (VICTORY  BELOGS TO GOD )

I don't think you need to quit so much as get to the point of your argument.  We're atheists, not poets, most of the reason we engage each other in conversation is to debate one point or another.

If you wanted to explain to us what Sikhism is, then by all means write up a report.  Copying and pasting so many verses, but with little point, should be avoided as it probably is little more than fancy poetry to most of us non-believers.

Though I guess you could just use the Spoiler or Code tags.  Both would give you a way to copy and paste large portions of Sikhish texts while giving us the option of perusing them at our leisure.

Quote from: "GURSIKH"fifth nanak ji compiled hymns of gurus and few hindus as well as muslims into a holy book

Quote from: "GURSIKH"sikhism is not mixture of hinduism and islam

THANKS JOLLY , honestly i  also don't want to quit .

QuoteWe're atheists, not poets

i know  my guru is more atheist  than you  ppls in  banging hollow religious  ritual and belief s ,i can prove it .

busy  now ,thanks  to all happy atheists FOR BEING PATIENCE  especially MCQ , WILL , AMSO ,

JOLLY , JCM , TOM  ,FAITHLESS, MARTIN AND TO RISKY  ALSO  .

Harmanpreet  Singh

    MASTERS  IN APPLIED PHYSICS  ( NANOTECHNOLOGY)
     NOW JOINING   RESEARCH   IN SAME FIELD

We now return you to your regularly scheduled normal.

 

I'm also a Sikh .. White, American. I was an Atheist for more than 20 years, previously Catholic in my youth. Let me say, that I have no problem with Atheists, and certainly would not come here to pick a fight! I too 'questioned everything' but what I discovered is that logic and rationality only get you so far in that there are dimensions of human consciousness that are .. or at least, CAN be in tune with something that transcends what we can easily observe, quantify, define, categorize.. that which is transcendent, and that which we intuitively know.

First, Sikhs do not forceibly convert, ever, period. Sikhs rarely do missionary work.. very rare, and it's not sanctioned in our book Siri Guru Granth Sahib.. which is the collective works of all 10 Sikh Gurus, immortalized and sanctified by our final living Guru, Gobind Singh Ji, arguabley one of the greatest heroes to have ever walked the Earth. Sikhs, especially Khalsa (baptised Sikhs) worship Guru Gobind Singh as a Christ-like figure.. I have the greatest love for this brilliant and brave man, I must admit.

Sikhs are Monotheistic, but in the Dharmic sense .. related to Hindus, Jains, Buddhists in this sense..  and preach peace and compassion to a degree only found elsewhere in Christianity.. a MAJOR difference, Sikhs do not 'turn the other cheek', but are mandated to defend ourselves, and the defenseless..even people of other faiths.. (even Atheists!!)  pacifism is not an option against aggressors.

Our entire 'Holy Book' is sacred Hymn written by our Gurus, to be Sung in our temples (Gurdwaras).. and in our homes. Sikh devotional music is world famous, and we believe anyone can hear God's voice in our music. SGGS Siri Guru Granth Sahib (Sikh 'Bible') is 1430 pages of 'Gurbani', i.e., 'Sacred Hymn', to be sung... quite unique and beautiful.

Oh.. important, Sikhs don't believe the Human Race is 'fallen'! On the contrary, we are Divine creatures, divinity is inside us all, even in your Atheists ;-) .. God lives and breaths through us, and his light shines in every heart. Many of your will intuitively know this to be true.

I haven't even scratched the surface on the legendary courage and heroism of Sikhs fighting invaders, saving the entire Hindu Faith, saving India from Muslim conquest. How about women.. all women are equal to all men in Sikism. Famous Sikh women have led Sikhs charging into battle, defeating Muslim armies.. A Sikh woman was commander of all Sikh armies, and another Sikh woman defeated British forces in Battle in modern times..

OK, that's all, if you want to just check out some Sikh music (Kirtan) sung by another American Sikh (in Gurmukhi, holy language of Sikhs, and English..) check out Snatam Kaur Khalsa, Sikh 'Gift to Humanity', voice of an angel, heart of a Saint. Free music auto-plays on her website.
http://www.snatamkaur.com/ (http://www.snatamkaur.com/)

Fateh Atheist Friends!

QuoteSo this 'holy' book is a mixture of Hinduism & Islam & Guru Wisdom? So you basically base Sikhism off two religions & Wisdom from Gurus... O_o

And you also worship Guru Nanak dev ji or Guru Granth Sahib which were men on earth that were the embodiment of God or something? How about the other 8 Gurus?

No, friends, this is quite the misconception. Hindus and Muslims are always claiming that Sikhs are really an offshoot of both, but neither. Sikhism was founded by Guru Nanak, after he went off alone, pondered the human condition and the world as he saw it, and reportedly had 'divine revelation' as to the nature of reality, humanity, and God. Nanak claims that 'there is no Hindu, there is no Muslim', only children of the one creator of the universe, which we call 'Ek Ong Kaar'. It's a God, or 'Creator' in the diffused, Dharmic sense. God is in every living thing, humans above all. We are manifestations of God.

There are quotes from Qur'an .. some. But this is illustrative, to show that even in religions which Sikhism disagrees with, there can be found some truths. Also, quotes from Hindu sages, Vedic writings. But overwhemingly, Sikhism was revolutionary, over 500 years old now and still what other faith can claim to be as open minded, egalitarian, humane, no conflict with science(!), and equality of women.. so, Sikhs NOT Hindu or Muslim at all, we have a unique, and we are quite sure, God-inspired faith which challenges us as Human Beings to live up to the Divinity that God has endowed us with. I speak of Sikhism with young people often.. after they learn about us, they often describe us as 'Jedi Knights'.. I laughed, but actually, that's pretty acurrate, sans Light Sabers...

hello every one,
as there have been discussion going on about sikhism, after reading some of the posts it seems that people do not seem to be interested in the holy book of Sikhism because of the poetry. there are variety of articles which can help clear the understanding of sikhism if any one is interested to learn more about it with the intention to gain extra knowledge. the articles can be found at http://fateh.sikhnet.com/Articles (http://fateh.sikhnet.com/Articles)
Thank you
Sehaj Kaur

"The eyes can mislead, the smile can lie, but the shoes always tell the truth." - Book of House 1:19

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi86.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk86%2Fsolidsquid%2FHouse-MD-house-md-1165501_1024_768.jpg&hash=c4bf84a7291018764ccd13de9fc7bd17a6178425)

"We don't come alone. We are fire, we are stone. We're the hand that writes then quickly moves away." Chronicles of Dio 2:2

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi228.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fee133%2Feddie6687%2FDio.jpg&hash=32cfb210dcb4c0d730dc15b2742ddd99d1928a70)

Shoot, Squid... I couldn't ever see your avatar closely enough to realize that was Ronnie!  Great pic, straight from the website.  You've got great taste!  

Two true prophets who will never let ya down - Dio and House.

Picking a couple of quotes of your scriptural preachy garbage at random ...

Quote from: "GURSIKH"ਜੇ ਸਉ ਚੰਦਾ ਉਗਵਹਿ ਸà©,ਰਜ ਚੜਹਿ ਹਜਾਰ ॥
If a hundred moons were to rise, and a thousand suns appeared,
 
ਏਤੇ ਚਾਨਣ ਹੋਦਿਆà¨, ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਘੋਰ à¨...ੰਧਾਰ ॥੨॥
even with such light, there would still be pitch darkness without the Guru. ||2||

... did no one ever tell you that you're not going to convince any rational atheist of the spiritual value of these things because they've rejected this kind of crap long ago and for very good reason, that the only way you'll get through to them is by reasoned argument or brainwashing?

I am forced to ask what your true agenda is here because you're either incredibly arrogant & stupid or you're a troll. Why don't you go tell it to some people who really care (not to say we don't but we certainly don't care for your god, only about the horrors various deity's followers can do in their chosen god's name)?

Kyu

Quote from: "sehajk5"hello every one,
as there have been discussion going on about sikhism, after reading some of the posts it seems that people do not seem to be interested in the holy book of Sikhism because of the poetry. there are variety of articles which can help clear the understanding of sikhism if any one is interested to learn more about it with the intention to gain extra knowledge. the articles can be found at http://fateh.sikhnet.com/Articles (http://fateh.sikhnet.com/Articles)
Thank you
Sehaj Kaur

Its not the poetry that is the target of the criticisms but the claims that have been made about the book.  I doubt that any of the critics here have anything negative to say about any inspiration or sense of fulfillment Sikhism brings you.  I too have read texts and listened to people who left me filled with a painful amount of inspiration, but I haven't tried to make the claim that the texts were divine or the speakers were channeling the words of a deity.

i like to think of it this way (I hope this analogy doesn't alienate the non-western posters in this thread):

The "mix tape" or CD or play list, etc.  I can go out of my way to catalog a list of songs and copy them to a tape or CD in an order that gives me a great deal of joy and sense of inner calm.  The songs and the order that I've arranged them consistently have this effect on me.

Would I be correct in claiming that my custom play list or mix-tape/CD is the greatest arrangement of music on the planet?  Would I be correct in assuming that everybody on the planet who listened to the arrangement of songs would experience the exact same feelings of joy and inner calm?

My answer to those two questions is, "No."  My claim that my custom play list is the greatest arrangement of music on the planet is not a statement of fact but my opinion, based on my reactions to the songs.  Also, there may be some on the planet who would experience the same feelings of joy and inner calm when listening to the arrangement of songs, but not everybody will.  

In the same why I'm pretty certain that my custom play list isn't going to inspire a sense of joy and inner calm in everybody, the spiritual beliefs and texts of Sikhism aren't going to inspire the same joy, inner peace, calm, etc in everybody as it does the followers of Sikhism.

 Its like a self fulfilling prophecy, or a feed back loop, where the people most receptive to Sikhism will follow Sikhism, reinforcing the already held belief that Sikhism has the ability to give people something they were seeking.  I'd imagine that this holds true for all belief systems, those most open to the Chocolate flavor of Christianity tend to find themselves being a follower of Chocolate Christianity.  If the person most open to the Chocolate flavor of Christianity were to try other flavors before finding Chocolate, then the person would not feel the same level of satisfaction.  

This seems to mirror what all of us on this message board have gone through.  You Sikhs found Sikhism after trying to be atheists and Catholics while there only seem to be a few of us atheists who were always atheists.  We all tried to believe things that we just didn't fit into (hehe... I just remembered my underwear analogy from another post   ) until we found something that we could fit into.

sorry dude but Sikh is no religion :hail:  :hail:  
I've known new stuff about Sikh  

Jolly Sapper and Faithless do have valid points:

QuoteCopying and pasting so many verses should be avoided as it probably is little more than fancy poetry to most of us non-believers.

I don't encourage anyone to present verse to bolster an argument or help with an explanation.I know that when I meet a Muslim who vomits Q'uranic verse after verse to prove the reality of the virgins in heaven, or why Muhammed wants, for example, for him to kick every dog as he walks down the street (don't laugh, I had to endure this from a practitioner of 'The Religion of Peace' recently), I don't appreciate it.  I don't believe GURSIKH was intentionally being obnoxious, rather he
probably isn't  completely familiar with the etiquette of this forum. Knowing this gentlemen from another forum where he feels more
at home, he's as considerate and decent a person as you'll meet.

OH, there I go, now I'll be accused of Muslim-bashing, which for me personally I know many fine Muslims who left their repressive homelands and live in the
U.S. to just raise their families in freedom and who are definitely not pushing for Sharia.. also, as a Sikh I am not supposed to 'bash' or slander other faiths. There is a fine line, however, between directed, intentional slander, and simply stating a fact. In fact, I've run into difficulty in even attempting to define what a Sikh is and what we believe in.. no matter how I define it, I'm accused of bashing other faiths.. and Sikhs are most guilty of this self-censorship(!), to a fault. Even if I define a Sikh by what we are NOT, this implies a comparison to another faith.. and other Sikhs might reprimand me...  I don't know if any other religion that goes to such extremes not to offend other faiths.. oops, even by saying this I'm slandering them. See? Of course, I correct them.. our founding Gurus had no problem in confronting irrational practices and beliefs of other faiths.. hell, that's how we grew so fast in India in the first place. I think our founders had bigger stones than the rank and file Sikhs today, for the most part.

Well, the above frustration with a Muslim hitting me with volumes of Q'uranic verse is true, and it was a spirited defense of his insistence that he'd get to deflower 72 virgins in heaven and why he feels that Allah and Muhammed command him to abuse dogs.. the verse he gave was cryptic at best, and wide open to interpretation. Muslim friends who may take exception, I wasn't speaking about you, unless you also agree about the virgins and dog abuse.

karakara thanks for sticking around and continuing to post your thoughts. Much appreciated. I hope this discourse can continue in this type of good natured format.

Distinguished Moderator,

Here here, I hope I can keep it together without losing it too often.. anyway, that's one thing I'm supposed to internalize according to my faith, but I've always been an attack dog by nature. It's tough to transform a personality 40 years in the making, or at least temper that particular negative aspect of my personality.  It's  truly a challenge.

Since the topic of this thread is, ostensibly, Sikhism.. that, and the allergic reaction to some perceived spamming by a beloved fellow Sikh.. well, let me say here an now that neither I, nor any other real Sikh believes in prosthelitizing for the purpose of converting anyone from their exiting faith, even if that 'Faith', insofar as they believe it to be such, is Atheism. As I alluded to previously, and maybe 'sacriligiously' (irony intended ;-), Atheists can be just as spiritual in their own way, by their own definitions.. outside of established, organized theologies....

We do accept converts from other faiths, but most Sikhs will advise the person who wants to convert to Sikh to discuss with relatives and religious elders/leaders of their own faith first. After all, the problem could be simply going to a bad Mosque, Church, bad local leaders, etc. We usually advise people who already live in a culture and religion other than Sikh to simply try to live up to the best teachings of their faith, rather than convert. You see, we believe that there is validity in all religions.. God can be found in all religions. Any individual can attain 'God Actualization' on their own, directly, without priestly hierarchy or necessarily even withing a framework of a theology. There are many paths to God.. no single religion has 'exclusive rights'.. to us, this "__________ is the Only Way to God" tendency is an extremely primitive and ego-based concept of religion. In fact, for some people, no 'religion' at all is needed. Most devout Sikhs will admit that Sikhism isn't really a 'Religion', in the Western sense of the word, but a 'Dharmic Path'.

So, If they truly wish to convert, of course we accept them, but not for 'bragging rights' .. we have an ingrained doctrinal as well as collective understanding of 'ego' getting in the way of God's plan for us.. and although much 'ego-based' thought and action can be difficult to define, as they say 'we know it when we see it'. If we were to take a million followers from, say, Christianity or Islam, what would we gain? Nothing. What good are a million followers unless we simply believe in the strength and legitimacy of numbers? To be Khalsa, or baptised Sikh (aka: Saint-Soldier) is far, far more intellectually, morally, physically, etc., demanding than simply repeating a one-time assertion of this or that, and thereafter being a 'member' of a faith.. fine, this is good for many, and many go beyond simply having a religiously affiliated label put on them, and nothing else... but then is this person a chiseled, tempered, rounded, developed, balanced person of equal part courage and compassion.. or can this person (or a billion of his fellows) be simply a thug who has taken a pledge.. but has not internalized and metamorphosised into a superior Human Being? If you go for sheer numbers, and the political power that this will bring, you want to keep the entry requirements as low as possible. If you value truth and quality over quantity, the entry requirements are equally high.

But again, with our 'million' hypothetical converts, we do not gain 'bragging rights', but we view it as 1 million individuals getting a proven path to God, as well as many other benefits, not the least of which is personal dignity and awareness of their inner divinity, and all that this entails.

Having said all this, anyone not currently in touch with any aspect of their own spirituality and/or inner divinity is someone whom we would definitely like to talk to, even if they decide to join another faith or ultimately remain Atheist.

Fateh! Waheguru! (Fateh means 'Victory', but in this sense, victory for all of us, you and me both -- Waheguru is 'God', i.e., 'Wonderful Lord'

Speaking of Waheguru.. a name, word, sound that never fails to hit the emotion center of a Sikh's brain, we chant and meditate on the name of God, Waheguru, as well as other names of the Creator.

Knowing that Atheists can never get enough 'God Chanting', here's a nice example of what looks like (and truly is) entertainment, being a concert
performace, but the spiritual aspect of this Shabad (holy verse) is overwhelming and considered direct channeling of God through the performer.

Enjoy 'Waheguru' friends, you'll still be Atheists when it finishes ;-) .. or maybe not...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LeFYbouKn8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LeFYbouKn8)

Quote from: "karakara"Speaking of Waheguru.. a name, word, sound that never fails to hit the emotion center of a Sikh's brain, we chant and meditate on the name of God, Waheguru, as well as other names of the Creator.

Knowing that Atheists can never get enough 'God Chanting', here's a nice example of what looks like (and truly is) entertainment, being a concert
performace, but the spiritual aspect of this Shabad (holy verse) is overwhelming and considered direct channeling of God through the performer.

Enjoy 'Waheguru' friends, you'll still be Atheists when it finishes ;-) .. or maybe not...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LeFYbouKn8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LeFYbouKn8)

Wow. That was really beautiful music. Very peaceful, pretty, and passionately played. Thanks for posting the link. I'm curious what the instrument was that Snatum Kaur was playing. Not the violin, the other one, with the bellows and keyboard.

McQ Ji,

LOL, I wasn't expecting anyone to actually click the link so soon, but in any group there are always a few brave and curious souls!

For us, when we hear such music (it can be Kirtan, Gurbani, Shabads etc.. you'll hear it described as such) it's not just a woman singing.. in this case, the channeled words of our Gurus.. our Gurus (For Westerners, replace 'Guru' with 'Pope', fair analogy) are speaking to us through her, and for some Shabads, the word of God Himself (figure of speech: God is genderless, indescribable)  This shabad is: Akhaan Jor from Snatam Kaur Khalsa's album 'Shanti' . It's a gem.

The instrument that she's playing is called a 'Harmonium', and the story goes like this: Back in the bad old days of early Christian missionary work in India, some groups brought the Harmonium to assist in playing Gospel music.. the instrument is easy to learn, easy to transport, has a keyboard and bellows, and is very versatile. By the way, this was when 'Missionaries' would stand outside Hindu temples and curse the Hindus to damnation (at the top of their lungs, no less!) and warn them to convert to Christianity... (yes, and these missionaries had not bothered to read a word of the ancient Vedas, Upanishads, or Bhagavad Gita)...for believing in multiple gods, etc... yes, how nice. As I've read, they didn't dare do this outside of Sikh temples, but no matter. Well, both Hindus and Sikhs basically said: Thank you very much for your opinion of our religons.. you can keep your Bibles and gospel music, but we'll take that spiffy Harmonium.. since then, especially Sikhs have integrated Harmonium into almost all Sikh music.

Sat Nam, Waheguru!

Quote from: "wazzz"sorry dude but Sikh is no religion :hail:  :hail:  
I've known new stuff about Sikh  

So wazzz, exactly what 'stone' are you referring to? Are you perhaps confusing Sikhs with Muslims, who circle the meteor rock (Kabaa) in Mecca during Hajj? They don't worship the rock either, but that it fell from heaven.. purely symbolic.

Sikhs are not idol worshipers. We are a Monotheistic Dharmic Faith,  with similarities, yet very distinct from Hinduism, Jainism, and Buddhism.

Our founding Guru, Siri Guru Nanak Dev Sahib Ji, traveled and lectured to people everywhere about the futility and illogic of idol worship.

Sat Nam