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Russian jets attack Georgian city as battles rage

Hundreds feared dead in South Ossetia; Bush calls Medvedev, Saakashvili

TBILISI, Georgia - Russia sent hundreds of tanks and troops into the separatist province of South Ossetia and bombed Georgian towns Saturday in a major escalation of the conflict that has left scores of civilians dead and wounded.

Georgia, a staunch U.S. ally, launched a major offensive Friday to retake control of breakaway South Ossetia. Russia, which has close ties to the province and posts peacekeepers there, responded by sending in armed convoys and military combat aircraft.

Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov told reporters in Moscow that some 1,500 people have been killed, with the death toll rising Saturday.

The figure could not be independently confirmed, but witnesses who fled the fighting said hundreds of civilians had probably died. They said most of the provincial capital, Tskhinvali, was in ruins, with bodies lying everywhere.

The air and artillery bombardment left the provincial capital without water, food, electricity and gas. Horrified civilians crawled out of the basements into the streets as fighting eased, looking for supplies.

Russian Gen. Vladimir Boldyrev claimed in televised comments Saturday that Russian troops had driven Georgian forces out of the provincial capital. Witnesses confirmed that there was no sign of Georgian soldiers in the streets.

Georgia's President Mikhail Saakashvili proposed a cease-fire Saturday. As part of his proposal, Georgian troops were pulled out of Tskhinvali and had been ordered to stop responding to Russian shelling, said Alexander Lomaia, secretary of his Security Council.

Russia did not immediately respond to Saakashvili's proposal. Russian President Dmitry Medvedev had said earlier that Moscow sent troops into South Ossetia to force Georgia into a cease-fire.

Lomaia said there had been direct fighting between Russian and Georgian soldiers on the streets of Tskhinvali. He estimated that Russia sent 2,500 troops into Georgia. The Russian military has not said how many of its troops were deployed.

Russian military aircraft also bombed the Georgian town of Gori on Saturday. An Associated Press reporter who visited Gori shortly afterward saw several apartment buildings in ruins, some still on fire, and scores of dead bodies and bloodied civilians. The elderly, women and children were among the victims.

"Georgia is facing Russia's military aggression," Saakashvili said, noting that Russian forces were attacking areas outside South Ossetia. "Georgian authorities support a cease-fire and separation of the warring parties."

It is the worst outbreak of hostilities since the province won de facto independence in a war against Georgia that ended in 1992.

Threats of a wider war
The fighting threatens to ignite a wider war between Russia and Georgia, which accused Russia of bombing its towns, ports and air bases. Georgia, a former Soviet republic with ambitions of joining NATO, has asked the international community to help end what it called Russian aggression.

It also likely will increase tensions between Moscow and Washington, which Lavrov said should bear part of the blame for arming and training Georgian soldiers.

Moscow has said it needs to protect its peacekeepers and civilians in South Ossetia, most of whom have been given Russian passports. Ethnic Ossetians live in the breakaway Georgian province and in the neighboring Russian province of North Ossetia.

Overnight, Russian warplanes bombed the Vaziani military base on the outskirts of the Georgian capital and near the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan oil pipeline, Georgian Interior Ministry spokesman Shota Utiashvili said. He also said two other military bases were hit, and that warplanes bombed the Black Sea port city of Poti, which has a sizable oil shipment facility.

Continued at source (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26080747/)

I bet Bush is loving this.Im sure he will say something about terrorist and how we need to get involved.

The problem is that the USA has made a bilateral security pact with Georgia, which basically means that Georgia could ask for US military assistance against the Russians. The USA would then have to comply, because otherwise they would loose face. If that happens then the shit really hits the fan, because we would have a new world war in the making. For the moment we can only hope that the Georgians and the Russians get their problems solved as quickly as possible without foreign interference.

Tom, you've got a point.

However, I don't think Russians will just pack up their tanks and go away. Nor do I think the US government is foolish enough to get involved in a war with Russia on Russian home turf. Basically, my prognosis is: Georgia is f**kd.

Quote from: "Asmodean"Tom, you've got a point.

However, I don't think Russians will just pack up their tanks and go away. Nor do I think the US government is foolish enough to get involved in a war with Russia on Russian home turf. Basically, my prognosis is: Georgia is f**kd.

The US government is good at nosing into things.That's it I'm packing and moving to Canada!

Quote from: "afreethinker30"The US government is good at nosing into things.That's it I'm packing and moving to Canada!

That they are. But Russian Federation is not Iraq. They have the capacity to bloody the US nose pretty thoroughly, should the US decide to give military aid to Georgia. And a war on that scale is no what any one wants... Well, maybe Bush... And Medvedev... And a couple of other people... But they are just exceptions who confirm the rule.

Quote from: "Asmodean"

Quote from: "afreethinker30"The US government is good at nosing into things.That's it I'm packing and moving to Canada!

That they are. But Russian Federation is not Iraq. They have the capacity to bloody the US nose pretty thoroughly, should the US decide to give military aid to Georgia. And a war on that scale is no what any one wants... Well, maybe Bush... And Medvedev... And a couple of other people... But they are just exceptions who confirm the rule.

I know being an American that alot of the people here are fed up with it all.Given the chance (if we get our say so) we will stay out of it.But with Bush in office you never know what might happen.I think he's alot smarter then people give him credit for he got congress to vote things in...But then again the a&&es admitted to not reading alot of things they pass.American democracy is a joke.The biggest joke being on the people that live here.We get fooled into thinking we really have a say when we don't.

Quote from: "Tom62"The problem is that the USA has made a bilateral security pact with Georgia, which basically means that Georgia could ask for US military assistance against the Russians. The USA would then have to comply, because otherwise they would loose face. If that happens then the shit really hits the fan, because we would have a new world war in the making. For the moment we can only hope that the Georgians and the Russians get their problems solved as quickly as possible without foreign interference.

But when did Bush care about losing face?  That's what he's been doing the entire time he's been in office.

Sure, we go to war against Russia, we have no military here at home, war comes to our shores, the rest of the world gangs up on us.  Right?  Ugh.

Quote from: "afreethinker30"The US government is good at nosing into things.That's it I'm packing and moving to Canada!

We're right behind you.  I'd move in a heartbeat if Hubby could get a job there immediately.  We've decided that already.

Well, my prognoses (about georgia being f**kd) were apparently true... Russians said that the only solution was for Georgia to leave South Ossetia and it seems like Georgian forces are doing just that.

On a scale from one to ten, how smug do you think Mr. Medvedev is right now..?

Quote from: "Asmodean"Well, my prognoses (about georgia being f**kd) were apparently true... Russians said that the only solution was for Georgia to leave South Ossetia and it seems like Georgian forces are doing just that.

On a scale from one to ten, how smug do you think Mr. Medvedev is right now..?

I would guess a 10.Bush is to busy at the Olympics right now.Whew I'm keeping an eye on that bugger.

Quote from: "afreethinker30"Bush is to busy at the Olympics right now.Whew I'm keeping an eye on that bugger.

Bush's problem with Russia is that he has almost no influence with them. He can threaten them with military forces and listen to them laugh him up and down or he can threaten them with sanctions but they'll laugh him up and down then too... And he has no money to bribe them.    Being Bush is harder than one might think...

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi245.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fgg63%2Fcook125%2Fbush_precious.jpg&hash=e44102bb078d1ebf82348329af0d54029fe9baa0)

The European Union is now making a lot of diplomatic efforts to establish an immediate cease fire and to get Georgia and the Russian Federation around the negotiation table. That seems a better approach then everything that is coming out of the White House at this moment, which consists of nothing more then sending empty threads to the Russians.

Quote"The vice president told President Saakashvili that Russian aggression must not go unanswered, and that its continuation would have serious consequences for its relations with the United States,

Now, that is great leadership isn't it

Quote from: "Tom62"The European Union is now making a lot of diplomatic efforts to establish an immediate cease fire and to get Georgia and the Russian Federation around the negotiation table. That seems a better approach then everything that is coming out of the White House at this moment, which consists of nothing more then sending empty threads to the Russians.

Quote"The vice president told President Saakashvili that Russian aggression must not go unanswered, and that its continuation would have serious consequences for its relations with the United States,

Now, that is great leadership isn't it :shock:  .But he's to busy watching sports to make a comment himself.Which is probley a good thing.

Quote from: "Tom62"

Quote"The vice president told President Saakashvili that Russian aggression must not go unanswered, and that its continuation would have serious consequences for its relations with the United States,

OOH! I can almost see Mr. Medvedev quaking in his boots... NOT!  

I notice on the news that there is not alot of detail given as to the Georgian military operation that provoked the Russians. The Georgians say that the paramilitary forces inside South Ossetia were shelling Georgian towns on the outskirts of the province. Since the shelling was coming from the interior of the province the Georgian military moved in to suppress the shelling and restore order.

I might be wrong but I dont think this is a lie on Georgia's part. Why would they ever want to start a war with a global power even if they did have United States support? Russia is at their border and would respond far quicker than the United States would.

Also if you look at the history of South Ossetia they have had a lot of sham elections and a local government with some close ties to five local mafia families. On top of that both pro Moscow provinces are nearly completely run by Russian state owned companies and the FSB (formerly KGB).

I think this whole debacle shows how the United States is a jerk that promises things it cannot deliver. For a tiny country to offer so much military support to the United States in Kosovo and Iraq and then be showed the cold shoulder is awful. They committed two thousand troops to Iraq! For a country the size of Georgia that number makes a difference.

I think if it was not for the whole dumbass Iraq war this situation either would have never arisen or at least be very different from what it is now.

Does any of this sound similar to the Hungarian uprising of 1956?

Quote from: "Moses"I think this whole debacle shows how the United States is a jerk that promises things it cannot deliver. For a tiny country to offer so much military support to the United States in Kosovo and Iraq and then be showed the cold shoulder is awful. They committed two thousand troops to Iraq! For a country the size of Georgia that number makes a difference.

Indeed. If some poor, tiny-little country with a crappy military force attacked Georgia, I suppose the States would be there in days. But when the big fish in the pond decides to bite, the States sit on their asses and throw practically empty threats around without actually helping.

Quote from: "Moses"I think if it was not for the whole dumbass Iraq war this situation either would have never arisen or at least be very different from what it is now.

If you are refering to the situation in Georgia, 2000 more troops there would probably make no difference against Russian war machine.

Those 2,000 Georgian troops are now back home and it is not doing them any good so they definitely are no match to the Russian military so you are certainly right.

I refered to Iraq more as an issue that has bogged down the United States military and destroyed any unified consensus amongst the western countries. So in a situation like that Russia is thinking "heck the U.S is overstretched and Europe is fractured. Why not invade Georgia?!!"

Quote from: "Moses"I refered to Iraq more as an issue that has bogged down the United States military and destroyed any unified consensus amongst the western countries. So in a situation like that Russia is thinking "heck the U.S is overstretched and Europe is fractured. Why not invade Georgia?!!"

As far as Europeans go, they (or, in my case, we) do not seem fractured on the Georgia issue, but they are fractured in their view of the US foreign affairs management.

Still, in this here case, as long as Europe wants that Russian oil and gas, Russia sits with the high card.

I stand corrected on the European countries reasons. I thought there was a disagreement over who was to blame for the instigation of hostilities.  

As far as Russian Oil doesn't this pipe line that Russia now partially controls mean even more leverage power for Russia over the rest of Europe? I don't think I like how that sounds.

What do you think needs to be done and how do you think we can achieve it? I have called my federal representative and my two senators about my thoughts but I feel like I need to offer some comprehensive policy to persuade them when I talk to their offices tomorrow.

Quote from: "Moses"I stand corrected on the European countries reasons. I thought there was a disagreement over who was to blame for the instigation of hostilities.  

I think we have a cautious semi-consensus that no one party is to be solely blamed for this conflict at this point - we are more interested in having it resolved right now.

Quote from: "Moses"As far as Russian Oil doesn't this pipe line that Russia now partially controls mean even more leverage power for Russia over the rest of Europe? I don't think I like how that sounds.

The pipe is still in the Georgian-controlled territories, although if Russia was really determined to mess with everybody, they could piss so namy artillery shells on it that you would find parts of it in Australia. I don't think there is a great risk of that though. The governemnt of russian Federation seems to have gotten its megalomania stroked - for now.

Quote from: "Moses"What do you think needs to be done and how do you think we can achieve it?

I will not try to make international relations policy here as I am completely incompetent to do so, but what I'm sure does not help, is threats and expensive words directed at Russian government as they are quite capable of shruging most of them off with a laugh. On the other hand, if Russia decides to threaten somebody or to demonstrate its power and its willingness to use it, they'll just turn the velves and we'll have another Ukraine on our hands, or roll in a column of tanks and we'll have another Georgia.

Quote from: "Moses"I have called my federal representative and my two senators about my thoughts but I feel like I need to offer some comprehensive policy to persuade them when I talk to their offices tomorrow.

The best policy is to tread carefully. Especially with a government that proves not to suffer word-slinging for long.

When I talked to my Senators and Representatives offices I asked that they work on a streamlined refugee process (the present on is ridiculous and filled with red tape) that would include Darfur as well. I would like to include other countries in the process but I figured asking for a world wide refugee system that is streamlined instead of a two countries specific program would be less likely to go forth in Congress at this time, though I have demanded it in the past and will continue in the future.

Here is a report on the bureaucratic mess that is the United States refugee process:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01698.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/16/AR2007091601698.html)

Nothing like waiting for safety for ten months as you and your family are getting killed.

I did not ask for sanctions however since I feel that would really make Russia feel under attack since it would be in the same situation as Iran or Iraq was. Also they might impose sanctions of there own on Western and Eastern Europe.