Happy Atheist Forum

Now before you spam this with hate (If that was your intention).. lol READ it  ;) to provide the information, from the book: "The Qur’aan and Modern Science: Compatible or Incompatible?")

*~(I did not know if this should go into the Religion Forum or the Science... So i choose Religion~)*

*~Thoughts..?

[Source: http://www.sunnahonline.com/ilm/quran/qms.pdf (http://www.sunnahonline.com/ilm/quran/qms.pdf)] (dankje btw : )

I don't see any point why the Quran would contain a verse that  â€œIt is not permitted To the Sun to catch up The Moon, nor can The Night outstrip the Day: Each (just) swims along In (its own) orbit (According to Law).”. Nor do I see what you'd like to prove with it?

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages41.fotki.com%2Fv1265%2Fphotos%2F8%2F892548%2F6116196%2FTealdeer-vi.gif&hash=6155fa18f55cd4cd86d241039bcae6e61153d0a6)

Seriously, though... it's not unheard of for fears derived from and observations made by purely narrative means (stories passed down, anthropomorphized natural occurrences, etc) to actually reflect hard science. You don't need a degree in chemistry or physics to make this leap of a syllogism:

1. The sun looks like fire.
2. Fires burn out eventually.
3. The sun will burn out eventually and we will die.

Simple, and yes, it's scientifically true.

1. The sun is a giant atom-smashing machine which needs fuel.
2. Eventually, it will exhaust its fuel supply.
3. When this happens it will become a red giant and we will die.

It proves nothing other than the fact that occasionally non-scientific observations can be relatively similar to scientific truth.

/thread.  

Quote from: "risky"“It is He Who created The Night and the Day, And the sun and the moon: All (the celestial bodies) Swim along, each in its Rounded course.” [Al-Qur’aan 21:33]

This verse seems to suggest that the author believed the sun is in orbit around the earth, along with the moon and all of the other celestial bodies that can be seen from earth.

Risky, if you notice that I had a couple edits on your post it is because I wasn't reading closely enough and thought you hadn't listed your source; I was going to add a note asking you to do so.  

Here's the source:

http://www.sunnahonline.com/ilm/quran/qms.pdf (http://www.sunnahonline.com/ilm/quran/qms.pdf)

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages41.fotki.com%2Fv1265%2Fphotos%2F8%2F892548%2F6116196%2FTealdeer-vi.gif&hash=6155fa18f55cd4cd86d241039bcae6e61153d0a6)

Seriously, though... it's not unheard of for fears derived from and observations made by purely narrative means (stories passed down, anthropomorphized natural occurrences, etc) to actually reflect hard science. You don't need a degree in chemistry or physics to make this leap of a syllogism:

1. The sun looks like fire.
2. Fires burn out eventually.
3. The sun will burn out eventually and we will die.

Simple, and yes, it's scientifically true.

1. The sun is a giant atom-smashing machine which needs fuel.
2. Eventually, it will exhaust its fuel supply.
3. When this happens it will become a red giant and we will die.

It proves nothing other than the fact that occasionally non-scientific observations can be relatively similar to scientific truth.

/thread.  

Alright, understandable that could have been the case.

(Just for my knowledge, how many other religions believed the sun would 'die'/burn out if any)

@Tom62: I don't understand your question about the verse, could you clarify?

Quote from: "myleviathan"This verse seems to suggest that the author believed the sun is in orbit around the earth, along with the moon and all of the other celestial bodies that can be seen from earth.

“It is He Who created The Night and the Day, And the sun and the moon: All (the celestial bodies) Swim along, each in its Rounded course.” [Al-Qur’aan 21:33]

O.o Now i don't see how you can fit the sun orbiting around the earth in that verse nor all the other celestial bodies. Really lol could you explain how it would seem the author suggests it?

@laetusatheos To tell you the truth i hadn't noticed until you told me. lol..

Quote from: "risky"myleviathan wrote:
 
This verse seems to suggest that the author believed the sun is in orbit around the earth, along with the moon and all of the other celestial bodies that can be seen from earth.

“It is He Who created The Night and the Day, And the sun and the moon: All (the celestial bodies) Swim along, each in its Rounded course.” [Al-Qur’aan 21:33]

O.o Now i don't see how you can fit the sun orbiting around the earth in that verse nor all the other celestial bodies. Really lol could you explain how it would seem the author suggests it?

lol - sure. It seems fairly clear from the passage.The verse says: "And the sun and the moon: All (the celestial bodies) Swim along, each in its Rounded course."

The sun doesn't revolve around anything, though the verse suggests it has a 'rounded course'. The author was able to observe the sun appearing to circle the earth, and wrote erroneously that it must be in movement, 'swimming along in its rounded course' - around the earth like the other celestial bodies. The fact he links the sun with the other astrological features is the giveaway. The author's reference point is the earth, and all celestial bodies, including the sun, swim through the heavens around it.

There's no other way to explain why the author might have believed the sun has a rounded course.

Quote from: "myleviathan"

Quote from: "risky"myleviathan wrote:
 
This verse seems to suggest that the author believed the sun is in orbit around the earth, along with the moon and all of the other celestial bodies that can be seen from earth.

“It is He Who created The Night and the Day, And the sun and the moon: All (the celestial bodies) Swim along, each in its Rounded course.” [Al-Qur’aan 21:33]

O.o Now i don't see how you can fit the sun orbiting around the earth in that verse nor all the other celestial bodies. Really lol could you explain how it would seem the author suggests it?

lol - sure. It seems fairly clear from the passage.The verse says: "And the sun and the moon: All (the celestial bodies) Swim along, each in its Rounded course."

The sun doesn't revolve around anything, though the verse suggests it has a 'rounded course'. The author was able to observe the sun appearing to circle the earth, and wrote erroneously that it must be in movement, 'swimming along in its rounded course' - around the earth like the other celestial bodies. The fact he links the sun with the other astrological features is the giveaway. The author's reference point is the earth, and all celestial bodies, including the sun, swim through the heavens around it.

There's no other way to explain why the author might have believed the sun has a rounded course.

But the Sun does revolve around something... "The Sun does revolve around the Milky Way on an almost circular orbit with a speed of about 220km/s. The Sun completes one revolution in about 230 million years."

Source: http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=96 (http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=96)

So i guess the verse is still credible.

The verse is vague at best. It's impossible to know what the author intended by the celestial bodies "swimming along their rounded courses". It's easy to take verses and apply them to known scientific facts. Theists do the same thing with prophecy to historical events. As they say, hindsight is 20/20. If the author was truly inspired to write about the nature of the universe, for the great glory of Allah, it would be much more impressive if he went into just a little more detail.

Quote from: "myleviathan"As they say, hindsight is 20/20. If the author was truly inspired to write about the nature of the universe, for the great glory of Allah, it would be much more impressive if he went into just a little more detail.

That's my opinion on these things too.  If, for instance, I felt that a deity was telling me that in the future a virus would evolve which creates zombism in  humans and that I knew the cure.

I would not write:  "When the rooster crows on the eve of the darkest hour will the dead come to see day.  Woe is he that does not kill the rooster with pungent grasses."

I would just say, "God told me that a virus will eventually evolve which mimics what we currently refer to in sci fi as zombism.  I beg that we all take this seriously and be prepared to develop an anti-virus using the cure god has revealed to me, skunk weed."

The more vague you are when writing the more likely it is to be able to be interpreted to fit future knowledge and events.  It's in this same way that poetry often means different things to different people.

Quote from: "risky"@Tom62: I don't understand your question about the verse, could you clarify?

What I mean is that the verse only states the obvious. There is no revelation in it, no science, no nothing. The funny thing is that in the verse, someone (I assume it is Allah) forbids the sun to do certain things because it is the law. That sounds rather funny to me, because the sun is not a living person, whom you could forbid anything.

I don't think that the Quran (or any other religious book) contains any  scientific fact that would truly astound  us. I understand that there are many religious people are desperately looking for any scientific "approval" of their holy books. To me it is like looking for a needle in a haystack. It is as well a futile, meaningless goal. because these books are not intended to be scientific study books. Even if you would find a a couple of phrases that are scientific correct, it doesn't mean that the whole book is correct.  The problem with this kind of argumentation is that you can apply the same method to any book ever written in human history. I am sure that you can find scientific correct facts in Greek and Roman mythology, just like in Harry Potter and the Brother Grimm's fairy-tales as well.

The cut and paste job is nice but there is at least one thing that I'm curious about. How many verses are there in the Quran which make claims that are directly contrary to what has been proven through science?  

The Quran's verses aren't compatible with scientific thought just because statements made by both seem to be similar (if not the same).  The Quran didn't state that Allah gave Muhammad some divine insight in developing a means by which to measure, record and analyse an event in the universe so that Muhammad could come to the conclusion that, "Yes, celestial bodies tend to have orbits that can be observed and measured," or, "No, the celestial bodies of the universe revolve around the Earth because Allah gave me the insight to develop a means by which to measure and record data that proves my point."

Now, I'm no student of the Quran, only if there are verses where Allah or Muhammad states a method of testing, measuring the results of the tests, AND THEN comes to a conclusion could we say that the Quran could be compatible with science.

Opps, lol i was not* done editing. bottom one is what i wanted posted. haha ^_^

Quote from: "laetusatheos"The more vague you are when writing the more likely it is to be able to be interpreted to fit future knowledge and events.  It's in this same way that poetry often means different things to different people.

Vague? It seemed to me to be pretty specific & it does coincide with what we know today. The only thing someone can point out is that well perhaps he got lucky. lol

Quote from: "Tom62"What I mean is that the verse only states the obvious. There is no revelation in it, no science, no nothing. The funny thing is that in the verse, someone (I assume it is Allah) forbids the sun to do certain things because it is the law. That sounds rather funny to me, because the sun is not a living person, whom you could forbid anything.

It is not permitted to the Sun to do anything other then what I command... It sounds funny when human says it.. lol but if you know 'God' said it, it makes more sense...

I can tell you it wasn't obvious 1,400 years ago, the night and day of course was obvious, but the orbits.. not so lol unless the text that is being related to history of people guessing/theories is incorrect and they did in fact know for thousands of years.. lol Because they were incorrect hundreds of years after the verse was 'revealed'. While the verse specifically mentions what is a fact now. lol again all someone can say is he got lucky

Quote from: "myleviathan"The verse is vague at best. It's impossible to know what the author intended by the celestial bodies "swimming along their rounded courses". It's easy to take verses and apply them to known scientific facts...

"All (the celestial bodies) Swim along, each in its Rounded course." We know what was intended, the author says it plainly lol if I'm misreading the text let me know and help me out.

Quote from: "Jolly SapperNow"Now, I'm no student of the Quran, only if there are verses where Allah or Muhammad states a method of testing, measuring the results of the tests, AND THEN comes to a conclusion could we say that the Quran could be compatible with science.

That goes against the whole reason for having a 'God' If God had to tell you how he figured something out LoL It doesn't make much sense. It is compatablie with what man has measured tested/etc in todays world. So again the only thing that is possible is that the verse is just clear luck. Muhammed couldn't have possible known that it was fact on his own, but to say he merely guessed/was lucky is plausible.

Quote from: "Jolly SapperNow"How many verses are there in the Quran which make claims that are directly contrary to what has been proven through science?

I'm not aware of any, If you bring up 'miracles' that is called 'faith' ; ) & if you say they can be disproved well you weren't around at the time of the 'miracle' so you cant debunk what happened to that person at that time. But of course belief in those 'miracles' is called 'faith'.  

If you find anything else besides that, let me know ^^

*~ I'll post the next one when i get home ; )

Here's a couple of links for information about Aristarchus (310 BC) - who first proposed the earth revolves around the sun. The idea that celestial bodies revolved predated Aristarchus. However it's clear that the idea of orbits predated the Quaran.

http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/biograp ... rchus.html (http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/biography/Aristarchus.html)
http://www.varchive.org/ce/orbit/arisam.htm (http://www.varchive.org/ce/orbit/arisam.htm)
http://www.historyforkids.org/learn/gre ... archus.htm (http://www.historyforkids.org/learn/greeks/science/math/aristarchus.htm)

Quote from: "myleviathan"Here's a couple of links for information about Aristarchus (310 BC) - who first proposed the earth revolves around the sun. The idea that celestial bodies revolved predated Aristarchus. However it's clear that the idea of orbits predated the Quaran.

http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/biograp ... rchus.html (http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/biography/Aristarchus.html)
http://www.varchive.org/ce/orbit/arisam.htm (http://www.varchive.org/ce/orbit/arisam.htm)
http://www.historyforkids.org/learn/gre ... archus.htm (http://www.historyforkids.org/learn/greeks/science/math/aristarchus.htm)

“Aristarchus brought out a book consisting of certain hypotheses. . . . His hypotheses are that the fixed stars and the Sun remain unmoved, and that the Earth revolves about the Sun in the circumference of a circle, the Sun lying in the middle of the orbit.” (1)

Earth revolving the sun, spot on. But he also believed the Sun or Stars do not move. Which is incorrect with modern day science. while what the verse states is correct.

Yeah I totally agree with you on the Idea of orbits predating the Quran but none of the theories relating were correct as  you can see.

Source:
1- "http://www.varchive.org/ce/orbit/arisam.htm"

QuoteYeah I totally agree with you on the Idea of orbits predating the Quran but none of the theories relating were correct as you can see.

That's the beauty of science. It's not static... it develops, and corrects itself when previous views are erroneous. That's the problem with any canonized religious document. Even when there are views that we consider wrong today (such as justification for slavery, war and murder) people who believe in God (or Allah) and scripture still hang onto these antiquated moral systems that don't work in our increasingly symbiotic world.

There may be a few statements in the Quran (and a number of other religious texts) that seem to agree with accepted modern views (scientific and otherwise), but the fact is that these scriptures really don't edify our understanding of the celestial bodies they speak about. Nor did they predict or cause the dynamic scientific developments responsible for our current knowledge of the universe. These verses are static and stagnant. They're useful as history, but not much more. Like I said before, it's easy to take an ancient text and apply it to hard-won, extensively researched views - but it would be more impressive indeed if the Quran contributed something of the like in the first place.

Quote from: "myleviathan"it would be more impressive indeed if the Quran contributed something

Your right, and that can be argued. I'll do exactly that.. even though it may not relate to the thread. (well may be it does ; )

"The Description of Knowledge in the Qur'an and by the Prophet (saas)

There are plenty of references to knowledge and the pursuit of knowledge in the Qur'an. The general feeling they leave the reader with is that the possessor of knowledge or wisdom has been given a very powerful gift, and that the pursuit of knowledge is something which should be done actively by everyone. Here are a few verses on the subject:

     [96:1-5] Read! In the name of your Lord who created - Created the human from something which clings. Read! And your Lord is Most Bountiful - He who taught (the use of) the Pen, Taught the human that which he knew not.

These five verses make up the first passage revealed from the Qur'an to mankind through the Prophet Muhammad (saas). It is interesting that of all the things which Allah chose to begin His revelation with is related to the actions of reading and writing, especially the latter. The ability to write and store information is described by Professor Carl Sagan in his book COSMOS: "Writing is perhaps the greatest of human inventions, binding together people, citizens of distant epochs, who never knew one another. Books break the shackles of time, proof that humans can work magic." [21]

[2:269] He [Allah] grants wisdom to whom He pleases; and he to whom wisdom is granted indeed receives a benefit overflowing. But none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

[20:114] High above all is Allah, the King, the Truth. Do not be in haste with the Qur'an before its revelation to you is completed, but say, "O my Sustainer! Increase my knowledge."

[3:190-191] Verily in the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the alternation of night and day - there are indeed signs for men of understanding; Men who remember Allah, standing, sitting, and lying down on their sides, and contemplate the creation of the heavens and the earth (with the thought) "Our Lord! Not for nothing have You created (all) this. Glory to You! Give us salvation from the suffering of the Fire."

These verses are a clear demonstration that 'science' and 'religion' were NOT meant to be fundamentally incompatible with each other by Allah. In fact, verses [3:190-191] strongly imply that "contemplating" the world around us is an integral part of faith.

[29:20] Say: Travel through the earth and see how Allah originated creation; so will Allah produce the second creation (of the Afterlife): for Allah has power over all things.

There are also references in the Qur'an describing the value (in the sight of Allah) of a knowledgeable person as opposed to an ignorant person. They are not equal:

[39:9] ...Say: Are those equal, those who know and those who do not know? It is those who are endued with understanding that remember (Allah's Message).

[58:11] ...Allah will raise up to (suitable) ranks (and degrees) those of you who believe and who have been granted knowledge."

...

The Relationship Between the Qur'an and Modern Science

Modern scientific theory today finds itself quite close to the Qur'an. There are at least two reasons behind this observation. The first is the lack of inconsistencies between the Qur'an and observable natural phenomena. Science has not been able to produce theories or experiments that fundamentally contradict the Qur'an. Had our science done so, either our understanding of the Qur'an or of the world would have been to blame: the Qur'an itself is true for all times. The second reason for the remarkable harmony between the Qur'an and science is the presence in the Qur'an itself of very clear and positive encouragement to contemplate and investigate the world around us. As the verses quoted above indicate, Allah has not forbidden man to question, and in fact, it seems He wants us to do so.

However, the Qur'an goes beyond simply encouraging all human beings to be aware of the natural world. It also contains widely dispersed references on a variety of subjects which are not only scientifically accurate, but in some cases, quite advanced relative to the time of the Prophet Muhammad (saas). For the Muslim who reads and understands these references, they serve to strengthen his or her faith of course. For the non-Muslim who questions the authenticity or authorship of the Qur'an, these references provide some interesting answers. One possible reason for these Qur'anic verses which describe the natural world can be found in the following verse:

    [41:53] Soon will We show them Our Signs in the (farthest) horizons, and within themselves, until it becomes manifest to them that it is the Truth...

The historical event which this verse alludes to is the conquest of Makkah. However, almost every verse in the Qur'an carries a historical and a universal meaning, and therefore one possible interpretation of this verse is that it refers to the gradual discovery of greater and greater natural "evidence" of the Creator's involvement in our world. Two of the most important and most fascinating goals of modern science are to peer farther and farther out to the edge of the universe, and to look deeper and deeper into the structure of the human body. It is in these two areas that we find the "signature" of Allah's creative power at its strongest.

Source: http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/scislam.html (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/scislam.html)
________________________________________________________

Now with that, it could be argued that all this knowledge/invention was indeed created because the Quran may have sparked the mind:

Encyclopedia > Timeline of science and technology in the Islamic world.
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedi ... amic-world (http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Timeline-of-science-and-technology-in-the-Islamic-world)

Just one Example of Math...
"1149
Al-Samawal writes al-Bahir fi'l-jabr (The brilliant in algebra). He develops algebra with polynomials using negative powers and zero. He solves quadratic equations, sums the squares of the first n natural numbers, and looks at combinatorial problems."

School_of_Mathematics_and_Statistics
University_of_St_Andrews,_Scotland
http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~his ... /full.html (http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Chronology/full.html)

If you'd like to go in-depth about certain fields of science that Muslims invented/etc: check: http://www.muslimheritage.com/ (http://www.muslimheritage.com/) (They really go in-depth).

I'm sorry to say that the Quran, contains a lot of scientific BS.

Some examples

Quote2:31 And He taught Adam all the names,..

Allah taught Adam all the names of the animals and plants. That must have been taken quite some time, because we know of  1.7 million species and there are probably another 10 million still to be named. This include only the species that are still alive today. If extinct species are included (~99%), then Allah must have taught Adam a billion or so names.

Quote27:61 Is not He (best) Who made the earth a fixed abode, and placed rivers in the folds thereof, and placed firm hills therein..

The Earth is fixed and does not move.

Quote13:2 Allah it is Who raised up the heavens without visible supports, then mounted the Throne, and compelled the sun and the moon to be of service, each runneth unto an appointed term; He ordereth the course; He detaileth the revelations, that haply ye may be certain of the meeting with your Lord.

According to the Quran the sun orbits the Earth

Quote36:40 It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit.

At least the Quran got it half right. The sun doesn't orbit around Earth. Maybe Allah should take some astronomy classes :lol:

Not much scientific wisdom here that we can learn from.

Quote from: "risky"myleviathan wrote:
it would be more impressive indeed if the Quran contributed something

Your right, and that can be argued. I'll do exactly that.. even though it may not relate to the thread. (well may be it does ; )

The verses mentioned may provide some motivation for Muslims to be educated - which is good infrastructure for learning within Islam. I accept that faith and science aren't mutually exclusive - there are many Muslim scientists and many contributions made by Muslims over the centuries. I don't deny those. In fact I would contend that Muslims in the US tend to be more educated on average than other religious groups.

That being said, just because the Quran, and Muslims in general value education, doesn't make the extrordinary claims of a God any more true than others who claim the same thing. We can readily observe, using our basic five senses that God does not exist, no matter what our educational level is. It's just not reasonable to believe in God when he is nowhere to be found.

Quote from: "risky"Source: The University of Southern California
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/scislam.html (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/scislam.html)

 This has been a good topic and interesting read up to this point. However, a friendly warning/reminder is in order.

That is a deceptive use of dubious sourcing, Risky.

This is in no way part of or affiliated with the University of Southern California, other than this came from an apparently student sponsored group that happens to be on campus. It is not endorsed by the university in any way. If you are going to quote source material, do so in an up-front manner. This has no scientific merit whatsoever.

Quote2:31 And He taught Adam all the names,..

Quote from: "tom62"Allah taught Adam all the names of the animals and plants. That must have been taken quite some time, because we know of  1.7 million species and there are probably another 10 million still to be named. This include only the species that are still alive today. If extinct species are included (~99%), then Allah must have taught Adam a billion or so names.

Hey 'God' is 'God', He can do 'anything' right?

In any case if you know about Belief of Adam in Islam, it's 'believed' he was the first human created... lol so how many Animals existed on Earth with the 'beginning of the human race'? (Now of course this is only plausible for people who do believe this lol [I do believe in Evolution but Man from Apes? Not. lol])

Quote27:61 Is not He (best) Who made the earth a fixed abode, and placed rivers in the folds thereof, and placed firm hills therein..

Quote from: "tom62"The Earth is fixed and does not move.

Define 'Fixed':securely placed or fastened or set. ( http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=de ... gle+Search (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=define%3Afixed&btnG=Google+Search) )
Define 'Abode:residence ( http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=de ... tnG=Search (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=define%3Aabode&btnG=Search) )

So "the earth a fixed abode" means, a securely placed residence.

.. now of course, this is what the translator meant because it is in line with other Translations of the verse, You only take it out of 'context'. In what it is meant to say..

For example:

"YUSUFALI:Or, Who has made the earth firm to live in; made rivers in its midst; set thereon mountains immovable; and made a separating bar between the two bodies of flowing water? (can there be another) god besides Allah? Nay, most of them know not."
SHAKIR: Or, Who made the earth a restingplace, and made in it rivers, and raised on it mountains and placed between the two seas a barrier. Is there a god with Allah? Nay! most of them do not know!

( http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/027.qmt.html (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/027.qmt.html) )

Quote13:2 Allah it is Who raised up the heavens without visible supports, then mounted the Throne, and compelled the sun and the moon to be of service, each runneth unto an appointed term; He ordereth the course; He detaileth the revelations, that haply ye may be certain of the meeting with your Lord.

Quote from: "tom62"According to the Quran the sun orbits the Earth

How does "each runneth unto an appointed term" even relate to the sun orbiting the earth? lol Please do explain.

Quote36:40 It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit.

Quote from: "tom62"At least the Quran got it half right. The sun doesn't orbit around Earth. Maybe Allah should take some astronomy classes :P

Quote41:12 Then He ordained them seven heavens in two Days and inspired in each heaven its mandate; and We decked the nether heaven with lamps, and rendered it inviolable. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Knower.

Quote from: "tom62"Funny that Allah doesn't  know what stars are.

A Metaphor ever cross your mind?

Quote67:3 Who hath created seven heavens in harmony. Thou (Muhammad) canst see no fault in the Beneficent One's creation; then look again: Canst thou see any rifts?

Quote from: "tom62"Allah asks Muhammed to examine the sky to see if it has any cracks.

Not really, lol
Define 'Rift': gap or break ( http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/ ... 1861702748 (http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dictionary/DictionaryResults.aspx?refid=1861702748) )

So do you see any Gaps or breaks in the 'sky'? If you wish to equate, the 'Seven Heavens' to the Sky.

Quote67:5 And verily We have beautified the world's heaven with lamps, and We have made them missiles for the devils, and for them We have prepared the doom of flame.

Quote from: "tom62"Allah made the stars for missiles to throw at devils for which he has prepared a doom of flame  ;)

Personally though.. my 'Faith' in Allah (God) is reaffirmed by what I've seen in the Quran, relating to science that are compatible,like spot on with science. lol Even though some may say it was Luck/etc . But the amount of things that do agree are like Wowzers lol... but thats me though : )  So it makes me feel like.. my faith isn't so 'blind' anymore.. lol as Albert Einstein said, “Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind.” (1)

Also since there are no revisions of the Quran every year, as opposed to the the Bible lol or new 'versions' of the Quran.. The Quran is only in Arabic, Translation of it is merely a translation, Unlike the Bible.. lol and actually since they can't agree on what is the Bible (Protestants & Catholics).. + Clear contradictions.. in it.. lol (i could state a few ; )

(1) http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/24949.html (http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/24949.html)

@McQ My fault, it won't happen again.

*~Sorry if I mislead anyone with my Titling of this source: http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/scislam.html (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/scislam.html) ~*

Fingertips

"“Does man think that We Cannot assemble his bones? Nay, We are able to put Together in perfect order The very tips of his fingers.” [Al-Qur’aan 75:3-4]

Unbelievers argue regarding resurrection taking place after bones of dead people have disintegrated in the earth and how each individual would be
identified on the Day of Judgement. Almighty Allah answers that He can not only assemble our bones but can also reconstruct perfectly our very fingertips.

Why does the Qur’aan, while speaking about determination of the identity of the individual, speak specifically about fingertips? In 1880, fingerprinting
became the scientific method of identification, after research done by Sir Francis Golt. No two persons in the world can ever have exactly the same
fingerprint pattern. That is the reason why police forces worldwide use fingerprints to identify the criminal. 1400 years ago, who could have known
the uniqueness of each human’s fingerprint?" (1)


Some History:

"14th Century A.D. - Many official government documents in Persia have fingerprint impressions. One government physician makes the observation that no two fingerprints were an exact match." (2)

[800+ years after the Quran was revealed]

"1686 - At the University of Bologna in Italy, a professor of anatomy named Marcello Malpighi notes the common characteristics of spirals, loops and ridges in fingerprints, using the newly invented microscope for his studies. In time, a 1.88mm thick layer of skin, the “Malpighi layer,” was named after him. Although Malpighi was likely the first to document types of fingerprints, the value of fingerprints as identification tools was never mentioned in his writings." (2)

"1823 - A thesis is published by Johannes Evengelista Purkinje, professor of anatomy with the University of Breslau, Prussia. The thesis details a full nine different fingerprint patterns. Still, like Malpighi, no mention is made of fingerprints as an individual identification method. " (2)

"1888 - Sir Francis Galton’s began his study of fingerprints during the 1880s, primarily to develop a tool for determining genetic history and hereditary traits. Through careful study of the work of Faulds, which he learned of through his cousin Sir Charles Darwin, as well as his examination of fingerprints collected by Sir William Herschel, Galton became the first to provide scientific evidence that no two fingerprints are exactly the same, and that prints remain the same throughout a person’s lifetime. He calculated that the odds of finding two identical fingerprints were 1 in 64 billion." (2)


Source:
1- http://www.sunnahonline.com/ilm/quran/qms.pdf (http://www.sunnahonline.com/ilm/quran/qms.pdf)
2- http://www.fingerprintamerica.com/finge ... istory.asp (http://www.fingerprintamerica.com/fingerprinthistory.asp) )

*~(Btw: The 2 sources disagree by 8 years on which the time Galton discovery's this knowledge lol)

Quote from: "risky"Personally though.. my 'Faith' in Allah (God) is reaffirmed by what I've seen in the Quran, relating to science that are compatible,like spot on with science.

If science were compatible, spot on, with the Quaran - I think everybody would be a Muslim, including myself. Clearly, it's not as spot on as you say.

Quote from: "risky"Almighty Allah answers that He can not only assemble our bones but can also reconstruct perfectly our very fingertips.

I have more contentions with the idea of resurrection than I do about whether the author knew specifically about fingerprint technology. There is no scientific support of resurrection of any type. Having said that... apparently fingerprints have been used for a long, long time for identification purposes. The author should have been well aware of how unique they are.

http://www.wired.com/science/discoverie ... ntech_0728 (http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2008/07/dayintech_0728)

(I know this is not an academic source, but a quick Google search sites dozens of online sources about the history of fingerprinting, so it seems to be mainly common knowledge)

Quote from: "myleviathan"

Quote from: "risky"Personally though.. my 'Faith' in Allah (God) is reaffirmed by what I've seen in the Quran, relating to science that are compatible,like spot on with science.

If science were compatible, spot on, with the Quaran - I think everybody would be a Muslim, including myself. Clearly, it's not as spot on as you say.

Quote from: "risky"Almighty Allah answers that He can not only assemble our bones but can also reconstruct perfectly our very fingertips.

I have more contentions with the idea of resurrection than I do about whether the author knew specifically about fingerprint technology. There is no scientific support of resurrection of any type. Having said that... apparently fingerprints have been used for a long, long time for identification purposes. The author should have been well aware of how unique they are.

http://www.wired.com/science/discoverie ... ntech_0728 (http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2008/07/dayintech_0728)

(I know this is not an academic source, but a quick Google search sites dozens of online sources about the history of fingerprinting, so it seems to be mainly common knowledge)

Yup yup, the Tang dynasty in China  & in Babylon, but there is no reference concerning that they knew that, no two fingerprints are the same. That was in the 14th century by a Persian, which i posted in the 'history' of fingerprinting; I only posted to what was related in the knowing of it... It was only in the 19th century that it was discovered no two people have the same fingerprint. No one knew that for thousands of years lol. So it states pretty much to the effect that everyone will be resurrected & that even their fingertips will be reconstructed perfectly, relating to everyone's meaning no one has the same fingerprint. No one knew, that no two fingerprints were alike back then.

(Well actually, i've heard of some Russian scientists wanting to bring back some extinct animals through cloning with some genes that remained ( Heard I'm to lazy to get the article lol tomorrow perhaps... when im not tired ; ).) lol so that in a sense is 'resurrection' but of course we won't get resurrected until 'judgment day' is over.. But of course that is a religious belief haha and can't be 'proven' until it happens then i guess we'll all find out if its true or not lol

"He hath loosed the two seas. They meet. There is a barrier between them. They encroach not (one upon the other)."
55:19-20
_______________________________________________________________

"Modern Science has discovered that in the places where two different seas meet, there is a barrier between them." (1)

"It is a necessity that seas intermingle through straits between them. The Koran however is aware of a very unusual phenomenon, which scientists discovered only recently. The Mediterranean and Atlantic oceans differ in their chemical and biological constitution. The French scientist Jacques Yves Cousteau conducted various undersea investigations at the Strait of Gibraltar and explaining these phenomena concluded:

"Unexpected fresh water springs issue from the southern and northern coasts of Gibraltar. These mammoth springs gush towards each other at angles of 45 degrees forming a reciprocal dam. Due to this fact the Mediterranean and the Atlantic Oceans cannot intermingle (as quoted by Nurbaki)." (2)

According to the Cousteau Society; Jacques Yves was born on 11 June 1910 & Died on 25 June 1997. (3)


Sources:
1- http://www.sunnahonline.com/ilm/quran/qms.pdf (http://www.sunnahonline.com/ilm/quran/qms.pdf)
2- http://www.bigissueground.com/atheistgr ... ence.shtml (http://www.bigissueground.com/atheistground/asadi-koranscience.shtml)
3- http://www.cousteau.org/jyc.html (http://www.cousteau.org/jyc.html)
___________________________________________________________________________________
For more on Jacques Yves visit:  http://www.infoplease.com/biography/var ... steau.html (http://www.infoplease.com/biography/var/jacquescousteau.html)

Quote from: "risky"...

 lol so that in a sense is 'resurrection' but ...l

It feels like a bit of a stretch to equate cloning and the idea of "resurrection."  A clone can be created that will have the same DNA as its parent/donor but the organism that is cloned still isn't the same organism that the DNA came from.

Having a physical copy of something counts as being "resurrected" as the clone won't have the same experiences that the donor of the DNA had.  If there were a clone of me made today, it would be 26 years younger than me.  It would grow up in a different place and time, in a different way, with different parents, and live its life with different experiences.  It would be in effect a wholly different person than me, even if we shared the same DNA.

Very good point ^-^ stupid example on my part lol

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/denis_giron/islamsci.html

One or two convenient overlapping topics don't negate the non-scientific absurdities in the rest of the book.

Quote from: "jrosebud"http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/denis_giron/islamsci.html

One or two convenient overlapping topics don't negate the non-scientific absurdities in the rest of the book.

LoL Denis Giron here is a rebuttal to his 'article'

In response to his spew on the Quran and the Bible and the Creation of Earth:

"Taken from “Quran and Bible in the Light of Science” debate, which can be accessed here http://www.aswatalislam.net/DisplayFile ... Zakir_Naik (http://www.aswatalislam.net/DisplayFilesP.aspx?TitleID=50027&TitleName=Zakir_Naik)

 Dr Zakir Naik says:

Let us analyse what the Bible says about modern science - First we deal with Astronomy., The Bible speaks about the creation of the universe. In the beginning, 1st Book, Book of Genesis, 1st Ch., it is mentioned - It says… ‘Almighty God created the Heavens and the Earth, in six days and talks about a evening and a morning, referring to a 24 - hour day. Today scientists tell us, that the universe cannot be created in a 24 hour period of six days. Qur’an too speaks about six ‘ayyams’. The Arabic word singular is ‘yaum’ plural is ‘ayyam’. It can either mean a day of 24 hours, or it is a very long period, an ‘yaum’, an epoch. Scientists say we have no objection in agreeing that the universe - it could have been created in 6 very long periods. Point No.2 - Bible says in Genesis Ch. No. 1 Verses No. 3 and 5,…‘Light was created on the first day.’ enesis, Ch., 1 Verses, 14 to 19… ‘The cause of light - stars and the sun, etc. was created on the fourth day’.  How can the cause of light be created on the 4th day - later than the light which came into existence on the first day? - It is unscientific. Further, the, Bible says Genesis, Ch. 1, Verses 9 to 13… ‘Earth was created on the 3rd day. How can you have a night and day without the earth ?  The day depends upon the rotation of the Earth Without the earth created, how can you have a night and day?  Point No..4, Genesis, Ch. No. 1 Verses 9 to 13 says… ‘Earth was created on the third day.’  Genesis Ch. No. 1 Verses 14 to 19 says…‘The Sun and the Moon were created on the fourth day.’ Today science tells us… ‘Earth is part of the parent body… the sun.’ It cannot come into existence before the sun â€" It is unscientific. Point No. 5, the Bible says in Genesis, Ch. No.1, Verse No. 11 to 13…‘The vegetation, the herbs the shrubs, the trees - they were created on the 3rd day And the Sun, Genesis, Ch. No. 1, Verses. 14 to 19, was created on the 4th day.How can the vegetation come into existence without sunlight, and how can they survive without sunlight ?

So the bible really is wrong." (1)

You know i realize instead of bringing everything from the site to here, just take a look for yourself. The responses are quite extensive... and i'd be doing more 'spamming' then anything else so take a look for yourself.

Source: (The Source Is the link lol)

1-  http://www.answering-christianity.com/b ... buttal.htm (http://www.answering-christianity.com/bassam_zawadi/islamsci_rebuttal.htm)

It can be deduced that Denis has no proof the Quran is 'incorrect'/false/absurd; but he does speak his opinion oh so well ; )


[Anywho, this should disprove all the nonsense he states if it doesn't please inform me :]

Hope this helped you out jrosebud.

THE EXISTENCE OF SUBATOMIC PARTICLES
In ancient times a well-known theory by the name of ‘Theory of Atomism’ was widely accepted. This theory was originally proposed by the Greeks, in
particular by a man called Democritus, who lived about 23 centuries ago. Democritus and the people that came after him, assumed that the smallest unit
of matter was the atom. The Arabs used to believe the same. The Arabic word dharrah most commonly meant an atom. In recent times modern science has discovered that it is possible to split even an atom. That the atom can be split further is a development of the 20th century. Fourteen centuries ago this concept would have appeared unusual even to an Arab. For him the dharrah was the limit beyond which one could not go. The following Qur’aanic verse
however, refuses to acknowledge this limit: “The Unbelievers say, ‘Never to us will come The Hour’: say, ‘Nay! But most surely, By my Lord, it will
come Upon you â€" by Him Who knows the unseen â€" From Whom is not hidden The least little atom In the Heavens or on earth: Nor is there
anything less Than that, or greater, but Is in the Record Perspicuous.’” [Al-Qur’aan 34:3]

This verse refers to the Omniscience of God, His knowledge of all things, hidden or apparent. It then goes further and says that God is aware of
everything, including what is smaller or bigger than the atom. Thus the verse clearly shows that it is possible for something smaller than the atom to exist, a fact discovered only recently by modern science.

Source: http://www.sunnahonline.com/ilm/quran/qms.pdf (http://www.sunnahonline.com/ilm/quran/qms.pdf)

So what you're saying is, that the Quran isn't based on anything holy or supernatural, but instead based off of whatever relevant ideas may have been around at the time?

Quote from: "Jolly Sapper"So what you're saying is, that the Quran isn't based on anything holy or supernatural, but instead based off of whatever relevant ideas may have been around at the time?

I don't understand how you deduced that.. from that which I posted... lol It can only be 'holy' or 'supernatural' if the common belief was that an atom was the smallest thing & the Quran states otherwise, then over 1,000 years later we realize that there are things smaller then an atom, it can only reaffirm that the Quran came from some 'supernatural' power..

Quote from: "risky"I don't understand how you deduced that.. from that which I posted... lol It can only be 'holy' or 'supernatural' if the common belief was that an atom was the smallest thing & the Quran states otherwise, then over 1,000 years later we realize that there are things smaller then an atom, it can only reaffirm that the Quran came from some 'supernatural' power..

I'll jump back in here and refer back to my original post: being close to a scientific truth by guessing doesn't make the source supernatural; it makes it observant. It's a metaphor. Take Rome. Rome is a city. A city consist of quarters or sectors. Each quarter consists of smaller areas. Each area consists of a number of blocks. Blocks consist of houses. Houses consists of walls. Walls consist, occasionally, of bricks. Bricks consist of smaller bits of clay and other materials. And so on, and so on, and so on. Even those writing the Quran could see the metaphor and its pervasiveness in the world, even their own bodies (person, limbs, fingers, etc).

Essentially, "It was written in a book 1,000 years ago and was proven true today, therefore it was the source was supernatural" is such a horrendous leap and absurdity that it makes S5 Modal Logic look intuitive. (Did I explode the geek-o-meter on that one?   )

Think about it. It's like saying that a caveman was inspired by God for knowing fire is hot even though he had no knowledge of chemical oxidation and exothermic reactions.

Just for the record, I have no clue how you read this quote as meaning that there is something smaller than an atom.

Quote“The Unbelievers say, ‘Never to us will come The Hour’: say, ‘Nay! But most surely, By my Lord, it will come Upon you â€" by Him Who knows the unseen â€" From Whom is not hidden The least little atom In the Heavens or on earth: Nor is there anything less Than that, or greater, but Is in the Record Perspicuous.’” [Al-Qur’aan 34:3]

From my reading of this, "The least little atom ....Nor is there anything less Than that, or greater..." seems to support the idea that the atom was the smallest unit of matter.  Now if there was something about an atom being divisible in a later part of the Quran, then maybe you should have used that instead of the quote quoted above.  

I'm not terribly sure, but anybody with an understanding of math could see that in theory anything can be divided into smaller parts.  I'm pretty sure there were a fair number of people in the Arab world during the time the Quran was created that understood how to use the process of division.

From a mathematical viewpoint, ANYTHING can, in theory, be divided into something smaller.  Any one unit can mathematically be divided in half:

1/2=.5
.5/2= .25
.25/2=.125
etc.etc.

So not only could there have been the very observable fact that a whole unit of any thing is made up of smaller parts, like a person is made up of hands and feet and skin and organs, etc., but there is what looks to me (a non-mathematician) proof that in theory anything can be divided into something smaller than the original whole unit.  

Now I can understand your point, risky, that the Quran ITSELF may not have anything in it that says, "Screw science, be ignorant of the world around you" but there doesn't seem to be anything scientific in the Quran.  None of the quotes you've posted from the Quran describe a process by which to test the ideas that you claim prove the Quran can function as a science textbook.    

Curiosityandthecat keeps telling you why your argument is failing, so let me echo the sentiment with an example:

Give two people (Person A and Person B) a multiple choice question about something they know nothing about, give them only two choices as possible answers where ONLY ONE of the choices correctly answers the question.  Each person takes a guess, and chooses an answer that is different from the other person (Person A picks choice A and Person B picks choice B).  One of them will have chosen the correct answer.  Was the person who chose the correct answer gifted by divine wisdom or was it chance?  This is a process that can be repeated, the data recorded, and a conclusion developed.  This is impossible with the Quran because the Quran is static.  (Unless there is some way to see into parallel universes, if they exist, and compare those Quran's with their respective universe's scientific achievements.)

Being that the Quran was written by a person, it was probably greatly influenced by contemporary (at the time) ideas and thoughts.  Maybe the middle east was such a big part of trade on the continent that lots of people brought in all the ideas from the rest of the world (practically anyway) and they found themselves somewhat written into the Quran, or influencing the way the Quran was written.  There are still other reasons besides being the divine word of God, for the Quran to make vague mentions that could possibly agree with what has been scientifically proven.

Quote from: "Jolly Sapper"“Just for the record, I have no clue how you read this quote as meaning that there is something smaller than an atom.”

“The Unbelievers say, ‘Never to us will come The Hour’: say, ‘Nay! But most surely, By my Lord, it will come Upon you â€" by Him Who knows the unseen â€" From Whom is not hidden The least little atom In the Heavens or on earth: Nor is there anything less Than that, or greater, but Is in the Record Perspicuous.” [Al-Qur’aan 34:3]

“nor anything less Than that” anything less then an atom would mean something smaller/less then an atom can exist… was that helpful? I mean the verse states it quite blatantly.

 

Quote from: "Jolly Sapper"“I'm not terribly sure, but anybody with an understanding of math could see that in theory anything can be divided into smaller parts. I'm pretty sure there were a fair number of people in the Arab world during the time the Quran was created that understood how to use the process of division.

From a mathematical viewpoint, ANYTHING can, in theory, be divided into something smaller. Any one unit can mathematically be divided in half:

1/2=.5
.5/2= .25
.25/2=.125
etc.etc.”

“In theory”… But the common belief again was that an Atom was the smallest unit in existence, the reference to Democritus further shows that. In any case the Quran does not state it as a ‘theory’ but rather, saying There Is Smaller.

Quote from: "Jolly Sapper"“Now I can understand your point, risky, that the Quran ITSELF may not have anything in it that says, "Screw science, be ignorant of the world around you" but there doesn't seem to be anything scientific in the Quran. None of the quotes you've posted from the Quran describe a process by which to test the ideas that you claim prove the Quran can function as a science textbook.”

O.o I said the quran was a science textbook? Or can function like one?

What I’ve been arguing is, that the Quran has scientific statements that have only been recently discovered and Would Not have been Known a 1,000+ years ago.

Quote from: "Jolly Sapper"“None of the quotes you've posted from the Quran describe a process by which to test the ideas that you claim prove”

Why would ‘God’ describe a process as to allow us to prove them true? lol Why would ‘God’ have too? lol We as humanity have done the processes required to prove them true and the results coincide with what the Quran states.

Quote from: "Jolly Sapper"“Being that the Quran was written by a person, it was probably greatly influenced by contemporary (at the time) ideas and thoughts. Maybe the middle east was such a big part of trade on the continent that lots of people brought in all the ideas from the rest of the world (practically anyway) and they found themselves somewhat written into the Quran, or influencing the way the Quran was written. There are still other reasons besides being the divine word of God, for the Quran to make vague mentions that could possibly agree with what has been scientifically proven.”

The idea’s and thoughts of the time did not correlate with what I’ve posted, look back in history, I’ve posted the beliefs/theories at the time anyways which do relate to my postings. Again your argument can only be that it was mere chance/luck that he was 'crazy enough' (If you lived at that time of course) to get those verses written down when all the beliefs/popular notions at the time were to the contrary.

 As to ‘vague mentions’ the verses are not vague, they are pretty much direct statements.

Here is an example of vague, the 7 heavens in the Quran refers to the 7 layers of the atmosphere.. ; ) because if there are 7 heavens and 7 layers of the atmosphere obviously the too relate to each other. (I'm not arguing this, nor do i believe this. This is an Example of Vague) What I’ve been posting is quite the contrary.  He will resurrect each one of you and even get Your Own specific fingertip right, (b/c everyone has a distinct one, no two can match.) There is a barrier between the two seas. Every celestial body has an orbit. Those Are Direct & Precise statements within the Quran… How you consider something like that as Vague is beyond me.

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"“being close to a scientific truth by guessing doesn't make the source supernatural”

Everything I’ve posted has not been “close to a scientific truth” it has been ‘Spot on’ with Scientific Truths.

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"“guessing”

The probability that all 'his guessing's' that i've posted so far were correct… the percent of that possibility keeps getting lower and lower. He has a 99% probability that he’ll get one thing right, oh he’s got one well its 74% now.. 49% now.. 24% now…etc etc it gets lower and lower and will continue to get lower as i post more, leaving one only to wonder…

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"Think about it. It's like saying that a caveman was inspired by God for knowing fire is hot

What I’ve posted is nothing of that sort; you make such a gross comparison to say the least.

Quote from: "risky"Everything I’ve posted has not been “close to a scientific truth” it has been ‘Spot on’ with Scientific Truths.

Cherry picking. Here's a list of (mostly) scientific absurdities, impossibilities and falsehoods found in Quran.

[spoiler:37ce8apd]1. And He taught Adam all the names."
      Allah taught Adam all the names of the plants and animals, which must have taken a while since there are 1.7 million species that are known today, with probably another 10 million or so that are yet to be discovered. And this only includes those that are alive today. If extinct species are included (~99%), then Allah must have taught Adam a billion or so names. 2:31

   2. Humans created from a single man. 4: 1

   3. The Quran repeats the silly story about Cain and Abel (though they are unnamed in the Quran). 5:27-31

   4. Homosexual acts are condemned as unnatural. (Will ye commit abomination such as no creature ever did before you?) But, in fact, such acts are common in many other species. 7:80-81

   5. Crucifixion is a Roman punishment, unknown in Egypt at the time this story supposedly occurred. 7:124

   6. When Allah revealed himself to Moses, the mountain (Mt. Sinai?) came crashing down. 7:143

   7. Humans created from a single man. 7:189

   8. Joseph saw in a dream eleven planets. Does this mean that according to the Quran there are eleven planets in our solar system? 12:4

   9. "The sun ... runneth unto an appointed term."
      The sun (according to the Quran) orbits the earth. 13:2

  10. The sun rises and sets at particular places on a flat earth. At the westernmost point on earth, the sun sets in a muddy spring. 18:86, 90

  11. Most scholars consider Dhu'l-Qarneyn ("The Two-Horned Lord") to be Alexander the Great, who is here presented as a devout Muslim. 18:83-98

  12. The Pharaoh threatens to crucify Hebrews on palm tress. (But crucifixion was a Roman form of punishment that was unknown at the time.) 20:71

  13. The sun "floats" in an orbit around the earth. 21:33

  14. Allah created all animals. Some with no legs, some with two, and some with four. (Most animals have six legs. Did Allah forget about the insects?) 24:45

  15. The earth is fixed and does not move. 27:61

  16. "He hath subdued the sun and moon to service. Each runneth unto an appointed term."
      The sun orbits the earth. 35:13

  17. "The sun runneth on unto a resting-place for him." 36:38

  18. It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit."
      The sun and the moon orbit the earth. (Well at least Allah and Mo are half right here!) 36:40

  19. Jonah was swallowed by a fish. 37:142

  20. "We decked the nether heaven with lamps.">
      Allah put "lamps" in the lower heaven to serve as lights. These are the stars that we see in the sky at night. 41:12

  21. "Who hath created seven heavens ... Canst thou see any rifts?"
      Allah asks Muhammed to examine the sky to see if it has any cracks. 67:3

  22. Allah made the stars as missiles to throw at devils. 67:5

  23. At the end of the world the earth with the mountains will be lifted up and crushed with one crash. 69:14

  24. "And hath made the moon a light"
      This verse implies that the moon produces its own light, rather than reflecting light from the sun. 71:16

  25. Someday the stars will fall. 81:2

  26. Humans are formed from "a gushing fluid" that issues "from between the loins and the ribs." 86:5-7

  27. Allah dealt with the owners of the elephant by sending swarms of "flying creatures". 105:1-3

From http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/science/long.html[/spoiler:37ce8apd]

Quote from: "risky"The probability that all 'his guessing's' that i've posted so far were correct… the percent of that possibility keeps getting lower and lower. He has a 99% probability that he’ll get one thing right, oh he’s got one well its 74% now.. 49% now.. 24% now…etc etc it gets lower and lower and will continue to get lower as i post more, leaving one only to wonder…

And wonder, we do!  

Quote from: "risky"What I’ve posted is nothing of that sort; you make such a gross comparison to say the least.

I'll give you that one. But, honestly, that's how far-fetched your assertions seem to me (and I would venture to say most of us).

My point is this: those writing the Quran were not in a vacuum. People are essentially the same animal now as they were at the time of the Quran's inception, supposedly ~7th century CE. The authors could just be a combination of smart and lucky, though some of these claims are a real stretch... I offer:

Verses:
91:1 By the sun and his brightness,    
91:2 And the moon when she followeth him,
Claim:
The moon has no light of its own and that what we see is the reflected light of the sun.

Verse:
21:30 Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were of one piece, then We parted them, and we made every living thing of water ? Will they not then believe ?
Claim:
The universe came about by a "big bang" or disintegration billions of years ago.

The whole list here (http://www.geocities.com/readislam/whatmakes.htm). What I find amazing is that someone is willing to make these leaps but can't make the leap that the whole concept of a god is an externalized, socially-constructed father figure intended to maintain order and provide leaders with power.

Hundreds of years before the Quran was written, there were Greeks making observations just as impressive and just as "spot on" as those supposedly made by the prophet. Here are a couple examples from an incomplete list (http://www.ics.forth.gr/~vsiris/ancient_greeks/whole_list.html),

Anaxagoras of Clazomenae (480-430 B.C.). Greek philosopher. Believed that a large number of seeds make up the properties of materials, that heavenly bodies are made up of the same materials as Earth and that the sun is a large, hot, glowing rock. Discovered that the moon reflected light and formulated the correct theory for the eclipses.

Anaximander (610-545 B.C.).Greek astronomer and philosopher, pupil of Thales. Introduced the apeiron(infinity). Formulated a theory of origin and evolution of life, according to which life originated in the sea from the moist element which evaporated from the sun (On Nature). Was the first to model the Earth according to scientific principles.

The only difference between these Greeks at the writers of the Quran (aside from the more than thousand-year gap, in the case of Anaximander) is that we don't consider their books holy or their sources supernatural.

Fantastic, thx for the list, I’ll go through each of them one by one.
(*~Note: If you could refer to past posts for ones I've already answered/responded to, I'd appreciate it : )

1.   And He taught Adam all the names."
Allah taught Adam all the names of the plants and animals, which must have taken a while since there are 1.7 million species that are known today, with probably another 10 million or so that are yet to be discovered. And this only includes those that are alive today. If extinct species are included (~99%), then Allah must have taught Adam a billion or so names. 2:31

Hey 'God' is 'God', He can do 'anything' right?

In any case if you know about Belief of Adam in Islam, it's 'believed' he was the first human created... lol so how many Animals existed on Earth with the 'beginning of the human race'? (Now of course this is only plausible for people who do believe this lol [I do believe in Evolution but Man from Apes? Not. lol])

2. Humans created from a single man. 4: 1

“O mankind! reverence your Guardian-Lord, who created you from a single person, created, of like nature, His mate, and from them twain scattered (like seeds) countless men and women;- reverence Allah, through whom ye demand your mutual (rights), and (reverence) the wombs (That bore you): for Allah ever watches over you.” 4:1

Yeah the belief that humans all originate from Adam, considering the majority of the world believes that or rather the three Large Monotheistic religions..uhm.. yeah the majority of the world lol (or a fairly large % if not the majority ; )

3. The Quran repeats the silly story about Cain and Abel (though they are unnamed in the Quran). 5:27-31

 How that is an impossibility/falsehood is beyond me.

4. Homosexual acts are condemned as unnatural. (Will ye commit abomination such as no creature ever did before you?) But, in fact, such acts are common in many other species. 7:80-81

“We also (sent) Lut: He said to his people: "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? For ye practise your lusts on men in preference to women : ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds.” 7:80-81

It never states it is ‘unnatural’ but implies that.

5. Crucifixion is a Roman punishment, unknown in Egypt at the time this story supposedly occurred. 7:124

Wonderful claim, could you prove for me that Crucifixion Never occurred in Egypt?

6. When Allah revealed himself to Moses, the mountain (Mt. Sinai?) came crashing down. 7:143

“And when God appeared to the mountain, He made it collapse to dust, and Moses fell down unconscious.  Then, when he recovered his senses he said: ‘Glory be to You, I turn to You in repentance and I am the first of the believers.’” (Quran 7:143)

“This lesson is clear.  If no man can stand the presence of God, and even mountains collapse in ruin at his presence, then how can an earthly thing be God?  How can a manufactured idol be God?  How can a living human being be God?  They cannot.  So Moses repented from asking God this favor…”
Source: http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/405/ (http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/405/)

*Note: the Mountain is not named.*
 If you think its absurd so be it.

7. Humans created from a single man. 7:189

Already explained this above.

8. Joseph saw in a dream eleven planets. Does this mean that according to the Quran there are eleven planets in our solar system? 12:4

“When Joseph said unto his father: O my father! Lo! I saw in a dream eleven planets and the sun and the moon, I saw them prostrating themselves unto me.” 12:4

Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, Ceros, Eris, and Pluto. 8+3 = ?

In any case this translation is in the minority, the majority of translations refer to them as Stars.

9. "The sun ... runneth unto an appointed term."
The sun (according to the Quran) orbits the earth. 13:2

“Allah it is Who raised up the heavens without visible supports, then mounted the Throne, and compelled the sun and the moon to be of service, each runneth unto an appointed term; He ordereth the course; He detaileth the revelations, that haply ye may be certain of the meeting with your Lord.” 13:2

How this verse even relates to the sun orbiting the earth is beyond me? Please help me out.

10. The sun rises and sets at particular places on a flat earth. At the westernmost point on earth, the sun sets in a muddy spring. 18:86, 90

“Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring, and found a people thereabout. We said: O Dhu'l-Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness.” 18:86

“‘Zulqarnain sees the sun setting in murky water… in turbid water - Imagine sun setting in murky water… unscientific.’ The Arabic word used here is… it is 'wajada' meaning, ‘it appeared to Zulqarnain.’...So 'wajada' means - if you look up in the dictionary also, it means it appeared.’ So Allah Subhanawataala is describing what appeared to Zulqarnain”

Source:  http://www.answering-christianity.com/b ... buttal.htm (http://www.answering-christianity.com/bassam_zawadi/islamsci_rebuttal.htm)

“Until, when he came to the rising of the sun, he found it rising on a people for whom We had provided no covering protection against the sun.” 18:90

How either of those verses claim the sun rises on a flat earth is beyond me.

11. Most scholars consider Dhu'l-Qarneyn ("The Two-Horned Lord") to be Alexander the Great, who is here presented as a devout Muslim. 18:83-98

That is mere speculation; most scholars consider this? Absolute nonsense, show me that ‘most’ do.

12. The Pharaoh threatens to crucify Hebrews on palm tress. (But crucifixion was a Roman form of punishment that was unknown at the time.) 20:71

lol again, “Wonderful claim, could you prove for me that Crucifixion Never occurred in Egypt?”

13. The sun "floats" in an orbit around the earth. 21:33
 
Really? Lets take a look at the verse.

“It is He Who created the Night and the Day, and the sun and the moon: all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course.” 21:33

Woah! no where does it say the sun orbits the earth, what a claim!


14. Allah created all animals. Some with no legs, some with two, and some with four. (Most animals have six legs. Did Allah forget about the insects?) 24:45

“And Allah has created every animal from water: of them there are some that creep on their bellies; some that walk on two legs; and some that walk on four. Allah creates what He wills for verily Allah has power over all things.” 24:45

What he stated does not limit what he created rather he gives some examples; it states “of them there are some that…” Illogical argument.

15. The earth is fixed and does not move. 27:61

“Is not He (best) Who made the earth a fixed abode, and placed rivers in the folds thereof, and placed firm hills therein…”

Define 'Fixed':securely placed or fastened or set. ( http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=de (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=de) ... gle+Search )
Define 'Abode:residence ( http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=de (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=de) ... tnG=Search )

So "the earth a fixed abode" means, a securely placed residence.

.. now of course, this is what the translator meant because it is in line with other Translations of the verse, You only take it out of 'context'. In what it is meant to say..

For example:

"Or, Who has made the earth firm to live in; made rivers in its midst; set thereon mountains immovable; and made a separating bar between the two bodies of flowing water? (can there be another) god besides Allah? Nay, most of them know not." 27:61

"Or, Who made the earth a restingplace, and made in it rivers, and raised on it mountains and placed between the two seas a barrier. Is there a god with Allah? Nay! most of them do not know!" 27:61


16. "He hath subdued the sun and moon to service. Each runneth unto an appointed term."
The sun orbits the earth. 35:13

“He merges Night into Day, and he merges Day into Night, and he has subjected the sun and the moon (to his Law): each one runs its course for a term appointed. Such is Allah your Lord: to Him belongs all Dominion. And those whom ye invoke besides Him have not the least power.” 35:13

*yawns* please explain how this verse states that the sun orbits the earth for me…

17. "The sun runneth on unto a resting-place for him." 36:38

“Mustaqarr” may mean
(1) a limit of time, a period determined or
(2) a resting place or quiescence;
(3) a dwelling place.

“I think, the first meaning is best applicable here. But some commentators take the second (a resting place). In that case, the simile would be that of the Sun running a race while he is visible to us, and taking a rest during the night to prepare himself to renew his race the following day.” (Yusuf Ali’s tafseer, PG 1178. “The Holy Quran: Text, translation, and commentary”)

18. It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit."
The sun and the moon orbit the earth. (Well at least Allah and Mo are half right here!) 36:40

This verse does not state the sun orbits the moon, it is pure stupidity to say the verse claims that.

19. Jonah was swallowed by a fish. 37:142

Jonah was swallowed by a Whale (Hoot = Whale in Arabic)

20. "We decked the nether heaven with lamps.">
Allah put "lamps" in the lower heaven to serve as lights. These are the stars that we see in the sky at night. 41:12

“Then He ordained them seven heavens in two Days and inspired in each heaven its mandate; and We decked the nether heaven with lamps, and rendered it inviolable. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Knower.” 41:12

How this is absurd is beyond me once again… lol

21. "Who hath created seven heavens ... Canst thou see any rifts?"
Allah asks Muhammed to examine the sky to see if it has any cracks. 67:3

“Who hath created seven heavens in harmony. Thou (Muhammad) canst see no fault in the Beneficent One's creation; then look again: Canst thou see any rifts?” 67:3

Not really, lol
Define 'Rift': gap or break ( http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/ (http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/) ... 1861702748 )
So do you see any Gaps or breaks in the 'sky'? If you wish to equate, the 'Seven Heavens' to the Sky.

22. Allah made the stars as missiles to throw at devils. 67:5

“And verily We have beautified the world's heaven with lamps, and We have made them missiles for the devils, and for them We have prepared the doom of flame.” 67:5

Point blankly, a matter of faith.

23. At the end of the world the earth with the mountains will be lifted up and crushed with one crash. 69:14

“And the earth with the mountains shall be lifted up and crushed with one crash,” 69:14

The end of time, what more can be said?

24. "And hath made the moon a light"
This verse implies that the moon produces its own light, rather than reflecting light from the sun. 71:16

“The author of this claim assumed that Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him had thought that the moon is further in distance to the earth than the stars to the earth.  He presented Noble Verses 71:15-16 which state "See ye not how Allah has created the seven heavens one above another, and made the moon a light in their midst, and made the sun as a (Glorious) Lamp?."  

What the author didn't understand from these Noble Verses is that Allah Almighty claimed that the sun is the source of light "sirajan" and the moon is the reflection of light "Nooran".  The moon is not the source of light.  

Now, in Noble Verse 71:16 "and made the moon a light in their midst, and made the sun as a (Glorious) Lamp?" indicates that the light whether comming from the sun (the source) or the moon has no limits.   The light can travel from one heaven to the other freely.  

The Noble Verses did not say that the moon belongs to the seven heavens or is further in distance to the earth than the stars to the earth.  The Noble Verses clearly talked about the light that comes from the sun and from the moon traveling freely through the seven heavens "...a light in their midst... (71:16)".”
http://www.answering-christianity.com/q ... ld=71%3A16 (http://www.answering-christianity.com/quran/moon_locus.htm?search=Noble+Quran&text_field=71%3A16)

25. Someday the stars will fall. 81:2

“And when the stars fall,” 81:2

In relation to the End of time/Day of Judgment.

26. Humans are formed from "a gushing fluid" that issues "from between the loins and the ribs." 86:5-7

"‘Let now man think from what he is created - he is created from a drop, emitted from a space between the backbone and the ribs’.

Today we have come to know, the genital organs- the testes, in the males, and the ovaries in the female, in the Embryonic stage - they develop from a space, where the kidney is present today, between the backbone and the 11th and 12th rib. Later on the testes they descend to the inguinal canal, into the scrotum - and the ovaries in the female to the true pelvis.

But in the embryonic stage, it is in the space, which the Qur'an speaks about…‘between the backbone, the spinal column and the 11th and 12th rib’. Even in the adult life after the Genital organs they descend - yet they receive the blood supply - the nerve supply and the lymphatic drainage from the same space between the spinal column and the 11th and 12th rib

http://www.hmc.psu.edu/childrens/health ... hidism.htm (http://www.hmc.psu.edu/childrens/healthinfo/c/cryptorchidism.htm) "

Source: http://www.answering-christianity.com/b ... buttal.htm (http://www.answering-christianity.com/bassam_zawadi/islamsci_rebuttal.htm)

Woah another Scientific Finding in the Quran, thanks a ton bro ;) [/quote]

Perfect, I'm glad I'm making people think :D
_____________________________________________________________________________________________

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"Hundreds of years before the Quran was written, there were Greeks making observations just as impressive and just as "spot on" as those supposedly made by the prophet. Here are a couple examples from an incomplete list (http://www.ics.forth.gr/~vsiris/ancient_greeks/whole_list.html),

Anaxagoras of Clazomenae (480-430 B.C.). Greek philosopher. Believed that a large number of seeds make up the properties of materials, that heavenly bodies are made up of the same materials as Earth and that the sun is a large, hot, glowing rock. Discovered that the moon reflected light and formulated the correct theory for the eclipses.

Anaximander (610-545 B.C.).Greek astronomer and philosopher, pupil of Thales. Introduced the apeiron(infinity). Formulated a theory of origin and evolution of life, according to which life originated in the sea from the moist element which evaporated from the sun (On Nature). Was the first to model the Earth according to scientific principles.

Anaxagoras  considered these 'seeds' that 'make up the properties of materials' that make up the celestial bodies to be: "...seeds (spermata) or miniatures of wheat and flesh and gold in the primitive mixture..." O_o interesting theory... really.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaxagoras (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaxagoras)

Anaximander: "...according to Anaximander life originated from the moisture that covered the earth before it was dried up by the sun. The first animals were a kind of fish, with a thorny skin (the Greek word is the same that was used for the metaphor 'the bark of a tree' in Anaximander's cosmology). Originally, men were generated from fishes and were fed in the manner of a viviparous shark. The reason for this is said to be that the human child needs long protection in order to survive. Some authors have, rather anachronistically, seen in these scattered statements a proto-evolutionist theory. "

Source: http://www.iep.utm.edu/a/anaximan.htm (http://www.iep.utm.edu/a/anaximan.htm)

Impressive theory, really 'Spot on' with modern science

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"The only difference between these Greeks at the writers of the Quran (aside from the more than thousand-year gap, in the case of Anaximander) is that we don't consider their books holy or their sources supernatural.

You fail to mention all their theories were extremely flawed... = \ (At least the ones you've mentioned.)

Risky, hopefully I'll get to come back to this thread later when I've got time at work.

It's been very enjoyable, and I'm learning a lot about the Quran that I hadn't thought about before (I'd read it, but not analyzed its scientific claims). It'll take a lot more than a couple lines of poetry about celestial bodies to change my mind about the "supernatural" creator, but it's interesting, nonetheless!  

I'm going to cherry pick here...  The theme that I'm going for is that you've gone from defending your thesis of "Quran as scientific textbook" to something else.  

Quote2. Humans created from a single man. 4: 1

Yeah the belief that humans all originate from Adam, considering the majority of the world believes that or rather the three Large Monotheistic religions..uhm.. yeah the majority of the world lol (or a fairly large % if not the majority ; )

Belief without proof (being faith) is the antithesis of the scientific method, correct?  So this goes against the original thesis (if I understood the beginning of the thread anyway) that the Quran was completely steeped in science.  It doesn't matter if the "majority" or a large chunk of the "minority" believe in it, it wasn't a concept or idea that evolved through the application of the scientific method.  

Quote6. When Allah revealed himself to Moses, the mountain (Mt. Sinai?) came crashing down. 7:143

“This lesson is clear. If no man can stand the presence of God, and even mountains collapse in ruin at his presence, then how can an earthly thing be God? How can a manufactured idol be God? How can a living human being be God? They cannot. So Moses repented from asking God this favor…”
Source: http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/405/ (http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/405/)

*Note: the Mountain is not named.*
If you think its absurd so be it.

So which parts of the Quran are metaphorical and which are literal?  If the Quran is supposed to be a scientific text, then there should be some indication in the book that informs the reader exactly which parts are poetic metaphor and which are literal facts. Is there some kind of symbol in the Quran that is used throughout the book that tells the reader that the passage above is metaphorical, but the passages you've quoted in earlier posts about the celestial bodies are to be read literally?

Quote3. The Quran repeats the silly story about Cain and Abel (though they are unnamed in the Quran). 5:27-31

How that is an impossibility/falsehood is beyond me.

In the Christian bible, Cain and Abel fought over the affections of a woman (who spontaneously and without explanation appeared in the story.)  This kinds hurts the whole, "Everybody came from Adam" concept as well as your thesis that the Quran is a book of scientific facts.  Its kinda odd that the bible takes the time to list Adam and Eve, the garden of Eden, the Fall, their children Cain and Abel, but suddenly gets very vague as to where Cain and Abel's wives came from... unless I'm not reading the bible looking for anything literal.

Quote5. Crucifixion is a Roman punishment, unknown in Egypt at the time this story supposedly occurred. 7:124

Wonderful claim, could you prove for me that Crucifixion Never occurred in Egypt?

The Egyptians kept lots of records of about the goings on of the Egyptian kingdom.  I'm pretty sure there would be some record, somewhere, that listed executions and how they were carried out.  The Romans kept lots of records about the goings on in Rome and I'd bet a dollar it is from these records that historians figured out that in Roman controlled areas, crucifixion was a fairly common punishment/form of public execution.  While the Christian bible, through omission, makes it seem like the crucifixion was a special punishment.

Quote7. Humans created from a single man. 7:189

Already explained this above.

I thought humans were created from dirt?  At least that's what the Christian bible says.  The rest of the human species came about through man AND a woman, I'm not sure what the probability that spontaneous generation can happen through masturbation but its gotta be pretty small.

Quote8. Joseph saw in a dream eleven planets. Does this mean that according to the Quran there are eleven planets in our solar system? 12:4

“When Joseph said unto his father: O my father! Lo! I saw in a dream eleven planets and the sun and the moon, I saw them prostrating themselves unto me.” 12:4
Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, Ceros, Eris, and Pluto. 8+3 = ?

In any case this translation is in the minority, the majority of translations refer to them as Stars.

First, what definition does the Quran give regarding "planet?"  Second, Pluto lost its status as a planet not to long ago didn't it?  Why only mention one moon?  There are a great many more in this solar system.  While we're at it, where is the asteroid belt described in the Quran, since Ceres is found within the asteroid belt?  Last, if other translations of the Quran use "stars" instead of "planet" then there directly contradicts your original thesis that the Quran is a scientific text.

Quote“Allah it is Who raised up the heavens without visible supports, then mounted the Throne, and compelled the sun and the moon to be of service, each runneth unto an appointed term; He ordereth the course; He detaileth the revelations, that haply ye may be certain of the meeting with your Lord.” 13:2

How this verse even relates to the sun orbiting the earth is beyond me? Please help me out.

To me this verse is too vague, it doesn't give enough information as to whether the sun orbits the earth or the earth orbits the sun.  This lack of specifics regarding something that is a fundamentally accepted bit of astronomy regarding our solar system, doesn't give your thesis any support.

Quote“Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring, and found a people thereabout. We said: O Dhu'l-Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness.” 18:86

“‘Zulqarnain sees the sun setting in murky water… in turbid water - Imagine sun setting in murky water… unscientific.’ The Arabic word used here is… it is 'wajada' meaning, ‘it appeared to Zulqarnain.’...So 'wajada' means - if you look up in the dictionary also, it means it appeared.’ So Allah Subhanawataala is describing what appeared to Zulqarnain”

“Until, when he came to the rising of the sun, he found it rising on a people for whom We had provided no covering protection against the sun.” 18:90

How either of those verses claim the sun rises on a flat earth is beyond me.

Holy shiznu!  I agree!  :banna:  :banna:

Quote“It is He Who created the Night and the Day, and the sun and the moon: all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course.” 21:33

Woah! no where does it say the sun orbits the earth, what a claim!

"All swim along, EACH in its rounded course."  This verse doesn't say "All swim along, the planets in a rounded course" or "All swim along, each in its rounded course, except the sun, which sits in the center and is the point that the other planets rotate around."  

Be careful, Risky, you're starting to use Atheist logic there.  You're starting to demand explicit proof of a claim before accepting its veracity.  

Quote“And Allah has created every animal from water: of them there are some that creep on their bellies; some that walk on two legs; and some that walk on four. Allah creates what He wills for verily Allah has power over all things.” 24:45

Well if the Quran is to be read as a literal scientific text, then why not have some mention of bugs?  What's the point of specifically mentioning the number of legs on the animals that were created but forget to mention 1 leg (for things like clams and snails), 6 legs (for things like insects), or 8 legs (for the arachnid and octopus)?  This doesn't directly contradict your thesis, but it doesn't help it much either.

Quote“Is not He (best) Who made the earth a fixed abode, and placed rivers in the folds thereof, and placed firm hills therein…”

   [url]http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fixed[/url]
fixed Listen to the pronunciation of fixed
Pronunciation:
    \ˈfikst\
Function:
    adjective
Date:
    14th century

1 a: securely placed or fastened : stationary b (1): nonvolatile (2): formed into a chemical compound c (1): not subject to change or fluctuation <a fixed income> (2): firmly set in the mind <a fixed idea> (3): having a final or crystallized form or character (4): recurring on the same date from year to year <fixed holidays> d: immobile, concentrated <a fixed stare>2: supplied with something (as money) needed <comfortably fixed>
â€" fixed·ly Listen to the pronunciation of fixedly \ˈfik-sÉ™d-lÄ", ˈfikst-lÄ"\ adverb
â€" fixed·ness Listen to the pronunciation of fixedness \ˈfik-sÉ™d-nÉ™s, ˈfiks(t)-nÉ™s\ noun
I have to agree with Risky's point that the verse might not mean that the earth, as a planet, is not moving through the cosmos.  That being said, this verse doesn't support your thesis either.  The geography of the world is constantly changing (erosion, tectonic movements, earthquakes, glaciers, ecosystem failures all change the way the planet looks).  I can agree with your "securely placed residence" but the rest of the verse, if taken literally, goes against science.  The hills weren't "placed" so much as "pushed" up from underneath, or gouged out by glacial activity and rivers form when there is enough flowing water to move softer sediment (and other light strata) enough to create a trench that keeps the water mostly in the same place.  

Quote“He merges Night into Day, and he merges Day into Night, and he has subjected the sun and the moon (to his Law): each one runs its course for a term appointed. Such is Allah your Lord: to Him belongs all Dominion. And those whom ye invoke besides Him have not the least power.” 35:13

*yawns* please explain how this verse states that the sun orbits the earth for me…

If you expect me to accept your thesis that the Quran is a scientific text, then the wording should be different to accurately reflect reality.  Like saying that the Moon and the Earth "each runs its course for a term appointed."  Now if I'm to read the Quran as poetry then there would be no argument, but its not sounding like it agrees with science.

Quote17. "The sun runneth on unto a resting-place for him." 36:38

“Mustaqarr” may mean
(1) a limit of time, a period determined or
(2) a resting place or quiescence;
(3) a dwelling place.

“I think, the first meaning is best applicable here. But some commentators take the second (a resting place). In that case, the simile would be that of the Sun running a race while he is visible to us, and taking a rest during the night to prepare himself to renew his race the following day.” (Yusuf Ali’s tafseer, PG 1178. “The Holy Quran: Text, translation, and commentary”)

Once again, it seems like you have forgotten the whole point of this thread.  It was to prove to us that the Quran was a scientific text because the verses described what can be proven scientifically.  You are defending the verse, not by pointing to science, but by the author's and translators poetic license.  

Quote18. It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit."
The sun and the moon orbit the earth. (Well at least Allah and Mo are half right here!) 36:40

This verse does not state the sun orbits the moon, it is pure stupidity to say the verse claims that.

Scientifically, the sun overtakes the moon every time there is a solar eclipse, right?  I guess its okay for the moon to be in the sky during the day (as there's no direct mention in the verses you posted).  Let me defend the "stupidity."  Things orbit around a fixed point.  If you don't know where the fixed point is, it can be really difficult to be able to determine if an object is actually "orbiting."  So the implication is that the sun and moon orbit (which is true, the moon orbits the earth and the earth orbits the sun, and the sun orbits around the milky way galaxy) but without defining what they orbit around, its pretty easy to guess that the author might have thought they orbited the "fixed" point of the earth.

Quote19. Jonah was swallowed by a fish. 37:142

Jonah was swallowed by a Whale (Hoot = Whale in Arabic)

This also begs the question, "Which type of whale WOULD be most likely of swallowing a human being?"  I'd think killer whales, being carnivores would be most likely to EAT a person.  They have teeth, they eat meat, and they can swallow a seal whole if they feel like it but they tend to rip and tear.  
Seaworld's website about killer whales (http://www.seaworld.org/infobooks/KillerWhale/dietkw.html)
Now, I'm going to assume that whale anatomy is similar to human anatomy.  SO when you aren't eating anything, the tube to your stomach tends to stay pretty tightly closed.  Keeps your breakfast from jumping out to say "HI" every time you take a step.  Assuming that a whale works the same as people, I'd imagine that the muscles in a whale are enough to crush a human being ( they might need stronger muscles to keep their stomach juices from bubbling out when they are diving).  There would be no air to breath inside of the throat or stomach of a whale either.  So, as a work of fiction this works for the Quran.  As a work of non-fiction, this works against the Quran.

Quote20. "We decked the nether heaven with lamps.">
Allah put "lamps" in the lower heaven to serve as lights. These are the stars that we see in the sky at night. 41:12

“Then He ordained them seven heavens in two Days and inspired in each heaven its mandate; and We decked the nether heaven with lamps, and rendered it inviolable. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Knower.” 41:12

How this is absurd is beyond me once again… lol

It isn't that the verse is absurd, its that the verse gives an explanation contradictory to science.  Your thesis was that the Quran was compatible with science out of divine intervention and not dumb luck or due to the influences of contemporary society on the author.  This hurts the idea that the Quran is to be taken literally instead of figuratively.  If things can be taken figuratively, then there is the potential for misunderstanding and misinterpretation, which makes it hard to treat as a work of science.

I think I've spent too much time on this post... so I'll stop here.

Quote from: "risky"

Quote from: "Jolly Sapper"

Quote from: "Jolly Sapper"“Now I can understand your point, risky, that the Quran ITSELF may not have anything in it that says, "Screw science, be ignorant of the world around you" but there doesn't seem to be anything scientific in the Quran. None of the quotes you've posted from the Quran describe a process by which to test the ideas that you claim prove the Quran can function as a science textbook.”

O.o I said the quran was a science textbook? Or can function like one?

What I’ve been arguing is, that the Quran has scientific statements that have only been recently discovered and Would Not have been Known a 1,000+ years ago.

I don't know if you read this or not... lol but scroll above if you don't take my text for it :D) in any case I was refuting the site once again.

Quote from: "risky"19. Jonah was swallowed by a fish. 37:142

Jonah was swallowed by a Whale (Hoot = Whale in Arabic)

Quote from: "Jolly Sapper"Now, I'm going to assume that whale anatomy is similar to human anatomy. SO when you aren't eating anything, the tube to your stomach tends to stay pretty tightly closed. Keeps your breakfast from jumping out to say "HI" every time you take a step. Assuming that a whale works the same as people, I'd imagine that the muscles in a whale are enough to crush a human being ( they might need stronger muscles to keep their stomach juices from bubbling out when they are diving). There would be no air to breath inside of the throat or stomach of a whale either.

Uhh… similar to a humans anatomy o_O what makes you think that? lol

Logically it would probably be the biggest whale out there.. considering that, I’d guess a blue whale… Bas Allahu Allam..

“Blue whales eat by filtering food from the water through plates called baleen in their mouths that take the place of normal teeth. They have large pleated grooves on their underbellies that expand, allowing the mouth to take in huge amounts of water, which is pushed through the baleen, leaving the food behind.”
Source: http://www.australianfauna.com/bluewhale.php (http://www.australianfauna.com/bluewhale.php)

What is “Baleen”?

“These whales do not have teeth, but instead have rows of baleen plates in the upper jaw â€" flat, flexible plates with frayed edges, arranged in two parallel rows, looking like combs of thick hair. Baleen is not bone, but is composed of keratin, the same substance as hair, horn, claws and nails. Whales use these combs for filter feeding. Whales are the only vertebrate group to use this method of feeding in great abundance (flamingos and crabeater seals use similar methods, but do not have baleen), and it has allowed them to grow to immense sizes. The blue whale, the largest animal ever to have lived, is a baleen whale.”
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baleen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baleen)

No teeth but Hairy Combs? lol

How he could have survived inside? God is ‘All powerful’ he can do ‘anything’ so being that, it was a ‘miracle’ he survived inside.

Quote from: "risky"20. "We decked the nether heaven with lamps.">
Allah put "lamps" in the lower heaven to serve as lights. These are the stars that we see in the sky at night. 41:12

“Then He ordained them seven heavens in two Days and inspired in each heaven its mandate; and We decked the nether heaven with lamps, and rendered it inviolable. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Knower.” 41:12

How this is absurd is beyond me once again… lol

Quote from: "Jolly Sapper"It isn't that the verse is absurd, its that the verse gives an explanation contradictory to science. Your thesis was that the Quran was compatible with science out of divine intervention and not dumb luck or due to the influences of contemporary society on the author.

Contradictory with science? How so? Lol really explain further…? If ‘God’ created everything and he created the Stars… how is that contradictory with science? Just because it does not explain the ‘steps’ to the creation a star does not mean it is unscientific… or ‘contradictory’ why would God go through all the ‘steps’ for us?

Risky, just FYI, but your logic on which whale would have swallowed Jonah is just one of the many areas where you are taking huge leaps that don't make sense. In fact, the Blue Whale would be one of the less likely candidates to swallow a human, or anything more than a few inches in cross-section. Its gullet is very small, even though its mouth is huge. It would not be capable of swallowing a solid object as large as a human.

Also, the orbits you are talking about for planets are not circular, so if your book says they are circular, it is wrong, and so is your argument regarding it being correct about the orbits. The planets, and everything that orbits anything else in space, travel in ellipses. Far from circular paths.

Quote from: "McQ"Risky, just FYI, but your logic on which whale would have swallowed Jonah is just one of the many areas where you are taking huge leaps that don't make sense. In fact, the Blue Whale would be one of the less likely candidates to swallow a human, or anything more than a few inches in cross-section. Its gullet is very small, even though its mouth is huge. It would not be capable of swallowing a solid object as large as a human.

Also, the orbits you are talking about for planets are not circular, so if your book says they are circular, it is wrong, and so is your argument regarding it being correct about the orbits. The planets, and everything that orbits anything else in space, travel in ellipses. Far from circular paths.

I never said circular, nor did the translation of the Quran say circular your placing text onto my fingers... It said rounded that being said what is elliptical?

Elliptical:  Of, relating to, or having the shape of an ellipse.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/elliptical (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/elliptical)
______________________________________
Definition of Ellipse:
“An ellipse looks like a slightly flattened circle. A plane curve. Orbits take the form of ellipses.”
http://math.about.com/library/ble.htm (http://math.about.com/library/ble.htm)

Rounded:curving and somewhat round in shape rather than jagged
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/rounded (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/rounded)

round·ed:having curved, not straight or angular, surfaces or edges
http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/ ... 1861706245 (http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dictionary/DictionaryResults.aspx?refid=1861706245)
______________________________________

Ellipse: "A plane curve."
Rounded: "having curved" & "curving and somewhat round in shape rather than jagged"

So that is not a contradiction but a misconception of what Rounded means.

I hope that cleared it up for you.

As for the blue whale you've got a point i didn't do much 'searching'/'researching' (as far as the internet goes lol), but i could go on posting 'theories' as to what it was that could have swallowed a human & Show you what is actually able to swallow a human. Nonetheless whatever it was, it was a 'miracle' lol how else could he have survived inside? I don't think i was arguing that this 'miracle' was totally inline with science and it would be a stretch to claim it so, i guess if i made it seem so.. it was b/c i got caught up in refuting the site lol . In any case, believing that it happened would be called 'faith'. And there are more then just this that require 'faith' if you believe in the Quran; Allah (God) splitting the Sea.., the story of the youth in the cave (I could throw theories on this one ; ) , etc etc.. It goes on. and of course religion comes with faith... lol... I don't think the purpose of this thread was for dissecting 'miracles' though lol

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"Risky, hopefully I'll get to come back to this thread later when I've got time at work.

It's been very enjoyable, and I'm learning a lot about the Quran that I hadn't thought about before (I'd read it, but not analyzed its scientific claims). It'll take a lot more than a couple lines of poetry about celestial bodies to change my mind about the "supernatural" creator, but it's interesting, nonetheless!  

cheeyaa. =P

The interesting part about this thread is where the two arguments are coming from. Risky's presupposition is that there is a higher power who revealed him/her/itself and proof of his/her/its existence through some rather interesting (interpretable) scientific claims in the Quran. Most of the rest of us labor under the presupposition that there is not a higher power, and therefore those claims made in the Quran are coming from another source, the tricky part being who and when.

Obviously, Risky has a great deal of knowledge, time and energy to devote to proving the Quran correct, while the rest of us have most likely never even thought about it before and have no formal education regarding the Quran, nor its writers or claims, as I believe most of us tend to direct the majority of our time and energy towards the Bible. That puts us in a position to be rhetorically "outshined" by Risky in this area.

Thankfully, working at a library, I have a great wealth of and unprecedented access to scholarly journals and academic information. I have some books coming and a collection of articles I'm ready to peruse through (once I can get away from other work).

This should be fun.  roflol

In the meantime, here's a great article written by Denis Giron.

[spoiler:13di3jho]Islamic Science: Does Islamic literature contain scientific miracles?
Denis Giron

Over the last decade growing numbers of Muslims have declared the Qur'an to be a book filled with alleged scientific miracles. Numerous web sites, books and videos have been produced that proclaim Islam to be truly a religion of divine origin, citing "scientifically accurate" statements in the Qur'an and Hadiths. Many of these productions introduce their claims with a statement like this:

One of the most remarkable things in the Quran is how it deals with science. The Quran which was revealed in the 7th century to Muhammed (p.b.u.h.)  contains unbelievable scientific facts which are being discovered in this century. Scientists are shocked and many times speechless when they are shown how detailed and accurate some verses  in the Quran are to modern science. For those who doubt the truth of Islam, I ask you: Could Muhammad, a 7th century desert Arab , from a poor and barbaric society, with no tradition of knowledge, philosopy and learning as the Greeks, with no author as prolific as Homer or Plato, an uneducated orphan who could not read and write, produce a book like the Qur'an if it was not from God?

This article will confront this question, as well as confront the various verses from the Qur'an which Muslim's cite as scientific miracles. This article will also look into various scientific absurdities found in the Qur'an and Hadiths that many Muslims fail to mention.

Of the roughly 1.3 billion Muslims on the planet, 90% are Sunni. Therefore, this article will confront the teachings of Sunni Islam. Hadith literature is, for the most part, unique to Sunni Islam, as many other sects (Shia, Submitter, Sufi) do not regard such writings as highly as the Sunnis do. Because of this, citing various Hadiths is only relevant in a discussion about Sunni Islam.


Creation of Earth

Modern scholars have criticized the bible for it's claim that the Earth was created in six days. This has been waved off as just another myth concocted by an ancient people to explain how the world was created. The Qur'an has made the same mistake regarding the amount of time needed to create the earth, as is seen in the following verse:

And verily We created the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them, in six Days, and naught of weariness touched Us. (Qur'an 50:38)

It is a known fact that Muhammad had contact with Jews and Christians, and much of the Qur'an is modeled after the Bible. While the Qur'an does not have the bible's claim that "on the seventh day God rested" (Genesis 2:2) it still proclaims the earth to be created in six days.

Muslims who seek to cast the Qur'an as being compatible with modern science, point out that the Qur'an also says that a day for Allah and the angels is similar to 50,000 years (Qur'an 70:4). In citing this verse, Muslims try to say the Earth was completed in 300,000 ( 6 x 50,000 ) years. While it is a nice try, the reality is this still does not agree with modern science, which states that it took several billion years for the Earth to reach this stage. Billions of years passed before there were trees, or forests, or animals.

Furthermore, such claims open the Qur'an to more criticism. The verse that allegedly says a day equals 50,000 years (Qur'an 70:4) states:

"The angels ascend to Him in a day, the measure of which is fifty thousand years." This verse actually seems to be discussing the speed of travel for angels. Possibly it is saying that the angels can travel in a day, the amount of space it would take others 50,000 years to cover. My goal is not to offer alternative interpretations to this myth. However, I dispute the claim that the this verse is saying a day equals 50,000 years because such a thing contradicts other parts of the Qur'an!

A day cannot equal 50,000 years because according to the Qur'an, a day equals 1,000 human years (Qur'an 22:47 & 32:5). Furthermore, to claim that it took Allah 300,000 years to create the Earth is to insult the God of Islam, as when he creates, he says "Be!" and it is (Qur'an 2:117).


The Qur'an on Embryology

In 1982 Keith Moore, an anatomy professor at the University of Toronto, produced a textbook titled "The Developing Human, 3rd edition". In this book Moore states his astonishment at the way embryonic development is depicted in the Qur'an. Moore would go on to produce fourth and fifth editions of his textbook, as well as another book titled "Human Development as described in the Quran and Sunnah", all of which many Muslims cite with great pleasure. Moore and his Muslim supporters are referring to the following verse:

We placed him as sperm in a place of rest, firmly fixed; Then We made the sperm into a clot of blood; then of that blood clot We made a lump; then we made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then we developed out of it another creature. So blessed be God, the best to create! (Quran 23:13-14)

Indeed, at first glance, this seems like a remarkable statement for a "7th century desert Arab" to make. However, upon closer study, one realizes that there is both explanation and error to this verse. First we must ask if this was an original theory, and second we must ask if it is correct.

Many people are amazed by the mention of sperm in this verse. This is nothing special. Since the beginning of time man has been aware of the "seed" that is released from the penis during sexual intercourse. The Bible, a text much older than the Qur'an, tells a story of a man who was struck down by God for "spilling his seed on the ground" (Genesis 38:9-10).

The entire study of human life as mentioned in the Qur'an is not original at all. While Muslims try to claim that Muhammad made these statements before scientists discovered them, they are wrong. Theories of the formation of a child inside the womb was put forth by Aristotle nearly 1,000 years before the Qur'an was written. In fact Aristotle correctly described the function of the umbilical cord, something not mentioned in the Qur'an, showing that earlier philosophers were aware of such things mentioned by Muhammad and more. Every mention of human development in the Qur'an is similar to Roman and Greek theories. Consider the following verse referring to sperm:

He is created from a drop (of sperm) emitted-- Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs. (Qur'an 86:6-7)

Clearly this verse is incorrect, and clearly it has origins in earlier theories. First of all, for sperm to originate between the back and the ribs would mean that it comes from the kidneys! We now know that semen is produced in the testicles, but people in Muhammad's time did not know this. Eleven centuries before Muhammad, the Greek physician Hippocrates theorized that sperm passed through the kidneys into the penis. For centuries this was an accepted (and incorrect) belief of the origins of sperm.

There are those who claim Muhammad had no contact with Greeks or Romans. Pre-Islamic Arabia definitely had contact with Byzantium, Syria, Egypt, Persia, and Babylon. There were many Jews and Christians living in the area, and they were familiar with Greek or Roman philosophy. The Christians were connected to Rome. The Jews were connected to Babylon and Persia. It is easy to see how such theories regarding embryonic development may have reached Muhammad.

Finally, to touch back on the verses that spoke of the development of an unborn child, I will say they too are incorrect. The Qur'an stated that the blood clot was turned to bone and then God "clothed the bones with flesh" (Quran 23:13-14). It is scientific fact that living tissue forms first, and then bones grow at a later time, and continue to gain strength (by building calcium) for many years after birth. Therefore, this is one of many scientific inaccuracies in the Qur'an.


Scientific Absurdities in the Qur'an and Hadith

To believe in the Qur'an is to not think rationally. There are numerous myths and scientific errors within the text of the Qur'an, and the Hadiths. Muslims accept many scientific absurdities with blind devotion. The world has matured as a whole, and has shed many of the fears and superstitions held by primitive cultures of the past. Unfortunately, because the text of the Qur'an is revered, people do not question many superstitious concepts that Muslims should have outgrown long ago.

To begin, I would like to give an example of a myth from Hindu culture. According to Hindu tradition, the god Siva would leave his wife home alone for long periods of time. One day she took skin from her own body, and used it to create a child. The child was used to protect her, and the house. When Siva returned, the child refused to let him enter the house. Without hesitation Siva drew his sword and decapitated the child. Siva's wife was quite angry, and to make up for what he did, Siva went out and cut off the head of an elephant, and placed it on the child's body. This is why the Hindu deity Ganesh has the body of a human, but the head of an elephant.

Now that I have told this story, will any Muslim believe it? Of course not. It is an absurd myth. There is no need to debate this issue, it is obvious that this is not true. It is a myth created by a primitive culture. If it is easy to see that this is a myth, why is it so difficult for Muslims to see the myths within their own text? I will now give a run down of some of the scientific errors in the Qur'an.

The Qur'an has a story of a woman who has never had sexual intercourse (a virgin) that becomes pregnant and gives birth (Qur'an 19:16-21). This is a myth deeply rooted in many cultures. Muslims are used to debating with Christians, so they are never told that virgin birth is impossible, as this is a doctrine of Christianity as well. The reality is, this is a scientific absurdity.

The Qur'an tells us that this same child who was born of a virgin mother is able to speak in complete sentences at only a day old (Qur'an 19:29-33)! While Muslims and Christians are debating the scientific knowledge written in the pages of the Qur'an, a rational thinker can clearly see that this idea of the talking baby, born of a virgin mother, is absurd. It was a myth adopted by Muhammad, and inserted into the text of the Qur'an.

For further scientific absurdities consider the following Hadith:

Sahih Muslim, Book 40, Number 6985:

Narrated AbuHurayrah:

Allah's Apostle (peace_be_upon_him) said: The Last Hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.

A rational person can quickly realize the ridiculous nature of this Hadith. There is scientific error at so many levels. First, the idea of stones and trees talking is from the realm of fairy tales. In order for the stone or tree to talk, it would need a brain, lungs, the proper vocal cords, and an understanding of the language it is speaking. Equally disturbing is the claim that one of these trees, the Gharqad, will take sides with the Jews.

If the thought of trees and stones talking was not enough, the Qur'an mentions clouds that can speak. Allah said to the clouds "come willingly or unwillingly" and they said "we come willingly" (Qur'an 41:11). Most readers pass right by this verse, but many questions come up when analyzing it. At what point does water vapor become conscious? Is a water molecule alive? With two atoms of hydrogen, and one of oxygen, where is the brain or the orifice required for speech?

Stories of non-living matter (rocks, etc) acting similar to living organisms is also found in the Qur'an. There are stories of mountains that have fear (Qur'an 33:72). Fear is an emotion which is caused by chemical impulses in the brain. Do the mountains, made a stone and dirt, have brains with these chemical impulses taking place?

One major scientific error in the Qur'an can be seen in the following verses:

And he followed a road; Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring, and found a people thereabout. We said: O Dhu'l-Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness. (Qur'an 18:85-86)

This is a major scientific blunder in the Qur'an. A man walked until he reached the setting place of the sun, and saw it setting in a muddy spring. Modern science has taught us that the earth revolves around the sun. The above excerpt from the Qur'an seems to state that it is the sun that moves, as well as sets on earth! If the sun were to touch the surface of the earth, everything would be incinerated, and all life would die.

Another curiosity is the mythical beings known in Islam as Jinn. There are Muslims who believe that Jinn stand on top of each other's shoulders all the way up to heaven, and listen to what is being discussed. There is a Hadith narrated by Aisha (Sahih Bukhari Volume 9, Book 93, Number 650) that says soothsayers and psychics receive some of their information from Jinn who stealthily acquire this info by listening to the discussions in heaven. The Qur'an says that the stars were created to defend heaven from such eavesdroppers (Qur'an 37:6-8), as well as saying that the stars are used as missiles (projectiles) to drive them away (Qur'an 67:5).

First of all, if Jinn can reach heaven by standing on the shoulders of one another, that means heaven is a given distance from earth. If this is true, then eventually we will be able to fly to heaven by space shuttle, or see it with a telescope. What is far worse in this theory is the thought that stars are used to throw at the Jinn. Stars are essentially stationary, but one can imagine how 7th century Arabs might have been in awe of the sights in the sky. This myth seems to confuse shooting stars with stars. The authors of the Qur'an and Hadiths probably thought stars and "shooting stars" were the same thing, when in reality they are not.

According to the Qur'an there was a man who could understand the speech of animals (Qur'an 27:18-19). While zoologists have formed methods of communicating with apes and chimps, no human being has ever been able to understand the "language" of species different from our own. The ability to speak like a human is formed by advanced brains with complex thought patterns, something most animals do not have. Therefore, to think that a man could understand the spoken language of another animal is absurd.

What is even worse is the verses cited have this man hearing the speech of ants! It is a scientific fact that ants have no speech patterns. They communicate through chemical trails, and other forms of odor. In otherwords they communicate via smell, not sound! This blunder is understandable, as the average desert Arab in the seventh century would not know this. However this lack of knowledge of the animal kingdom proves human origin of the text, and disputes theories of a divine origin.

The Qur'an states that Allah created the sky in layers. He created seven heavens, and decked the lowest heaven with lamps (Qur'an 67:3-5) and adorned it with the beauty of the stars (Qur'an 37:6). The Qur'an also states that the moon is within these seven heavens (Qur'an 71:15-16). If the stars (lamps) are in the lowest heaven, they are either closer to the earth than the moon, or are at an equal distance from the earth as the moon. Either way this is scientifically inaccurate. It is a known fact that the stars are much farther away than the moon.

The following Hadith speaks of monkeys that are Muslims:

Sahih Bulhari Volume 5, Book 58, Number 188:

Narrated 'Amr bin Maimun:

During the pre-lslamic period of ignorance I saw a she-monkey surrounded by a number of monkeys. They were all stoning it, because it had committed illegal sexual intercourse. I too, stoned it along with them.

It is a rule in both Islam and Judaism that women who commit adultery are to be stoned. According to the above Hadith monkeys were subject to this law as well. What other laws do monkeys follow? Are they required to make a pilgrimage to Mecca? Are they required to read the Qur'an? What constitutes adultery in the monkey world? This is simply a myth. This is similar to a story found in the Ramayana, an ancient Hindu epic, that talks of the monkey Hanuman, and others of his kind, fighting for control of the monkey kingdom.

There is a Hadith (Sahih Buklhari Volume 1, Book 9, Number 490) which states that if a woman or a dog passes in front of you while you are praying, your prayer will not make it to heaven. While there are chauvinistic implications here, I'd like to focus on the scientific aspect. What is it about women and dogs that nullify prayers? Are the prayers carried by a type of sonic wave that women and dogs disrupt? It is obvious that there is no scientific explanation to this absurd myth. No one should be surprised by this, as numerous Hadiths say dogs are evil, and should be killed. Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 54, Number 540 says plainly: "Allah's Apostle ordered that the dogs should be killed."

Of course when it comes to killing animals, there are different laws for different species. Dogs are to be killed instantly, however snakes are to first get verbal warning if he comes to your house. If the snake comes a second time, kill him (Sunan Abu Dawud Book 41, Number 5240). The interesting thing about such a Hadith is the fact that snakes cannot hear. It is bad enough to assume that any animal would understand you giving a verbal warning, but to assume that an animal that is deaf will understand you is ridiculous. It is the equivalent of writing a note for a bat, and leaving it on your door so that he may read it later.

The following Hadith shows the poor sanitation habits of Muhammad and his followers:

Sunan Abu Dawud Book 1, Number 0067:

Narrated AbuSa'id al-Khudri:

I heard that the people asked the Prophet of Allah (peace_be_upon_him): Water is brought for you from the well of Buda'ah. It is a well in which dead dogs, menstrual clothes and excrement of people are thrown. The Messenger of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) replied: Verily water is pure and is not defiled by anything.

The issue here is not hygiene, but rather a lack of scientific understanding of bacteria, viruses, and germs that can be present in water. Excrement is a very common cause of water becoming contaminated with Escherichia coli (E. coli), a bacteria commonly found in the colon that is deadly to humans if ingested. Water contaminated with dead dogs or menstrual fluids can be equally dangerous.


Conclusion

Muslims cite alleged scientific miracles in the Qur'an and Hadiths to try and prove a divine origin of their faith. In this short study of Islamic science, these claims have been debunked. Clearly there was no supernatural force giving Muhammad scientific information. While the Muslims argued that advanced scientific knowledge in the Qur'an is a sign of divine origin, the rational thinker points out that the numerous and obvious scientific errors point to a wholly human origin.[/spoiler:13di3jho]

Some rebuttals to Denis' article go something along these lines: "Some things are a matter of faith. We, as Muslims, believe in the supernatural (Allah, p. b. u. h.). Therefore, whatever cannot be explained in the glorious Quran is immaterial, as God can do anything, regardless of our understanding."

Therein lies the greatest problem with this line of argumentation. Science and faith have different standards upon which to base the validity of claims. Faith requires nothing more than belief in the supernatural and miracles. Science, on the other hand, requires redundant sources, unbiased examination and hard evidence; not creatively interpreted thousand-year-old texts.

More later.

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"In the meantime, here's a great article written by Denis Giron.

[spoiler:1wc04eab]Islamic Science: Does Islamic literature contain scientific miracles?
Denis Giron

Over the last decade growing numbers of Muslims have declared the Qur'an to be a book filled with alleged scientific miracles. Numerous web sites, books and videos have been produced that proclaim Islam to be truly a religion of divine origin, citing "scientifically accurate" statements in the Qur'an and Hadiths. Many of these productions introduce their claims with a statement like this:

One of the most remarkable things in the Quran is how it deals with science. The Quran which was revealed in the 7th century to Muhammed (p.b.u.h.)  contains unbelievable scientific facts which are being discovered in this century. Scientists are shocked and many times speechless when they are shown how detailed and accurate some verses  in the Quran are to modern science. For those who doubt the truth of Islam, I ask you: Could Muhammad, a 7th century desert Arab , from a poor and barbaric society, with no tradition of knowledge, philosopy and learning as the Greeks, with no author as prolific as Homer or Plato, an uneducated orphan who could not read and write, produce a book like the Qur'an if it was not from God?

This article will confront this question, as well as confront the various verses from the Qur'an which Muslim's cite as scientific miracles. This article will also look into various scientific absurdities found in the Qur'an and Hadiths that many Muslims fail to mention.

Of the roughly 1.3 billion Muslims on the planet, 90% are Sunni. Therefore, this article will confront the teachings of Sunni Islam. Hadith literature is, for the most part, unique to Sunni Islam, as many other sects (Shia, Submitter, Sufi) do not regard such writings as highly as the Sunnis do. Because of this, citing various Hadiths is only relevant in a discussion about Sunni Islam.


Creation of Earth

Modern scholars have criticized the bible for it's claim that the Earth was created in six days. This has been waved off as just another myth concocted by an ancient people to explain how the world was created. The Qur'an has made the same mistake regarding the amount of time needed to create the earth, as is seen in the following verse:

And verily We created the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them, in six Days, and naught of weariness touched Us. (Qur'an 50:38)

It is a known fact that Muhammad had contact with Jews and Christians, and much of the Qur'an is modeled after the Bible. While the Qur'an does not have the bible's claim that "on the seventh day God rested" (Genesis 2:2) it still proclaims the earth to be created in six days.

Muslims who seek to cast the Qur'an as being compatible with modern science, point out that the Qur'an also says that a day for Allah and the angels is similar to 50,000 years (Qur'an 70:4). In citing this verse, Muslims try to say the Earth was completed in 300,000 ( 6 x 50,000 ) years. While it is a nice try, the reality is this still does not agree with modern science, which states that it took several billion years for the Earth to reach this stage. Billions of years passed before there were trees, or forests, or animals.

Furthermore, such claims open the Qur'an to more criticism. The verse that allegedly says a day equals 50,000 years (Qur'an 70:4) states:

"The angels ascend to Him in a day, the measure of which is fifty thousand years." This verse actually seems to be discussing the speed of travel for angels. Possibly it is saying that the angels can travel in a day, the amount of space it would take others 50,000 years to cover. My goal is not to offer alternative interpretations to this myth. However, I dispute the claim that the this verse is saying a day equals 50,000 years because such a thing contradicts other parts of the Qur'an!

A day cannot equal 50,000 years because according to the Qur'an, a day equals 1,000 human years (Qur'an 22:47 & 32:5). Furthermore, to claim that it took Allah 300,000 years to create the Earth is to insult the God of Islam, as when he creates, he says "Be!" and it is (Qur'an 2:117).


The Qur'an on Embryology

In 1982 Keith Moore, an anatomy professor at the University of Toronto, produced a textbook titled "The Developing Human, 3rd edition". In this book Moore states his astonishment at the way embryonic development is depicted in the Qur'an. Moore would go on to produce fourth and fifth editions of his textbook, as well as another book titled "Human Development as described in the Quran and Sunnah", all of which many Muslims cite with great pleasure. Moore and his Muslim supporters are referring to the following verse:

We placed him as sperm in a place of rest, firmly fixed; Then We made the sperm into a clot of blood; then of that blood clot We made a lump; then we made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then we developed out of it another creature. So blessed be God, the best to create! (Quran 23:13-14)

Indeed, at first glance, this seems like a remarkable statement for a "7th century desert Arab" to make. However, upon closer study, one realizes that there is both explanation and error to this verse. First we must ask if this was an original theory, and second we must ask if it is correct.

Many people are amazed by the mention of sperm in this verse. This is nothing special. Since the beginning of time man has been aware of the "seed" that is released from the penis during sexual intercourse. The Bible, a text much older than the Qur'an, tells a story of a man who was struck down by God for "spilling his seed on the ground" (Genesis 38:9-10).

The entire study of human life as mentioned in the Qur'an is not original at all. While Muslims try to claim that Muhammad made these statements before scientists discovered them, they are wrong. Theories of the formation of a child inside the womb was put forth by Aristotle nearly 1,000 years before the Qur'an was written. In fact Aristotle correctly described the function of the umbilical cord, something not mentioned in the Qur'an, showing that earlier philosophers were aware of such things mentioned by Muhammad and more. Every mention of human development in the Qur'an is similar to Roman and Greek theories. Consider the following verse referring to sperm:

He is created from a drop (of sperm) emitted-- Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs. (Qur'an 86:6-7)

Clearly this verse is incorrect, and clearly it has origins in earlier theories. First of all, for sperm to originate between the back and the ribs would mean that it comes from the kidneys! We now know that semen is produced in the testicles, but people in Muhammad's time did not know this. Eleven centuries before Muhammad, the Greek physician Hippocrates theorized that sperm passed through the kidneys into the penis. For centuries this was an accepted (and incorrect) belief of the origins of sperm.

There are those who claim Muhammad had no contact with Greeks or Romans. Pre-Islamic Arabia definitely had contact with Byzantium, Syria, Egypt, Persia, and Babylon. There were many Jews and Christians living in the area, and they were familiar with Greek or Roman philosophy. The Christians were connected to Rome. The Jews were connected to Babylon and Persia. It is easy to see how such theories regarding embryonic development may have reached Muhammad.

Finally, to touch back on the verses that spoke of the development of an unborn child, I will say they too are incorrect. The Qur'an stated that the blood clot was turned to bone and then God "clothed the bones with flesh" (Quran 23:13-14). It is scientific fact that living tissue forms first, and then bones grow at a later time, and continue to gain strength (by building calcium) for many years after birth. Therefore, this is one of many scientific inaccuracies in the Qur'an.


Scientific Absurdities in the Qur'an and Hadith

To believe in the Qur'an is to not think rationally. There are numerous myths and scientific errors within the text of the Qur'an, and the Hadiths. Muslims accept many scientific absurdities with blind devotion. The world has matured as a whole, and has shed many of the fears and superstitions held by primitive cultures of the past. Unfortunately, because the text of the Qur'an is revered, people do not question many superstitious concepts that Muslims should have outgrown long ago.

To begin, I would like to give an example of a myth from Hindu culture. According to Hindu tradition, the god Siva would leave his wife home alone for long periods of time. One day she took skin from her own body, and used it to create a child. The child was used to protect her, and the house. When Siva returned, the child refused to let him enter the house. Without hesitation Siva drew his sword and decapitated the child. Siva's wife was quite angry, and to make up for what he did, Siva went out and cut off the head of an elephant, and placed it on the child's body. This is why the Hindu deity Ganesh has the body of a human, but the head of an elephant.

Now that I have told this story, will any Muslim believe it? Of course not. It is an absurd myth. There is no need to debate this issue, it is obvious that this is not true. It is a myth created by a primitive culture. If it is easy to see that this is a myth, why is it so difficult for Muslims to see the myths within their own text? I will now give a run down of some of the scientific errors in the Qur'an.

The Qur'an has a story of a woman who has never had sexual intercourse (a virgin) that becomes pregnant and gives birth (Qur'an 19:16-21). This is a myth deeply rooted in many cultures. Muslims are used to debating with Christians, so they are never told that virgin birth is impossible, as this is a doctrine of Christianity as well. The reality is, this is a scientific absurdity.

The Qur'an tells us that this same child who was born of a virgin mother is able to speak in complete sentences at only a day old (Qur'an 19:29-33)! While Muslims and Christians are debating the scientific knowledge written in the pages of the Qur'an, a rational thinker can clearly see that this idea of the talking baby, born of a virgin mother, is absurd. It was a myth adopted by Muhammad, and inserted into the text of the Qur'an.

For further scientific absurdities consider the following Hadith:

Sahih Muslim, Book 40, Number 6985:

Narrated AbuHurayrah:

Allah's Apostle (peace_be_upon_him) said: The Last Hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.

A rational person can quickly realize the ridiculous nature of this Hadith. There is scientific error at so many levels. First, the idea of stones and trees talking is from the realm of fairy tales. In order for the stone or tree to talk, it would need a brain, lungs, the proper vocal cords, and an understanding of the language it is speaking. Equally disturbing is the claim that one of these trees, the Gharqad, will take sides with the Jews.

If the thought of trees and stones talking was not enough, the Qur'an mentions clouds that can speak. Allah said to the clouds "come willingly or unwillingly" and they said "we come willingly" (Qur'an 41:11). Most readers pass right by this verse, but many questions come up when analyzing it. At what point does water vapor become conscious? Is a water molecule alive? With two atoms of hydrogen, and one of oxygen, where is the brain or the orifice required for speech?

Stories of non-living matter (rocks, etc) acting similar to living organisms is also found in the Qur'an. There are stories of mountains that have fear (Qur'an 33:72). Fear is an emotion which is caused by chemical impulses in the brain. Do the mountains, made a stone and dirt, have brains with these chemical impulses taking place?

One major scientific error in the Qur'an can be seen in the following verses:

And he followed a road; Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring, and found a people thereabout. We said: O Dhu'l-Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness. (Qur'an 18:85-86)

This is a major scientific blunder in the Qur'an. A man walked until he reached the setting place of the sun, and saw it setting in a muddy spring. Modern science has taught us that the earth revolves around the sun. The above excerpt from the Qur'an seems to state that it is the sun that moves, as well as sets on earth! If the sun were to touch the surface of the earth, everything would be incinerated, and all life would die.

Another curiosity is the mythical beings known in Islam as Jinn. There are Muslims who believe that Jinn stand on top of each other's shoulders all the way up to heaven, and listen to what is being discussed. There is a Hadith narrated by Aisha (Sahih Bukhari Volume 9, Book 93, Number 650) that says soothsayers and psychics receive some of their information from Jinn who stealthily acquire this info by listening to the discussions in heaven. The Qur'an says that the stars were created to defend heaven from such eavesdroppers (Qur'an 37:6-8), as well as saying that the stars are used as missiles (projectiles) to drive them away (Qur'an 67:5).

First of all, if Jinn can reach heaven by standing on the shoulders of one another, that means heaven is a given distance from earth. If this is true, then eventually we will be able to fly to heaven by space shuttle, or see it with a telescope. What is far worse in this theory is the thought that stars are used to throw at the Jinn. Stars are essentially stationary, but one can imagine how 7th century Arabs might have been in awe of the sights in the sky. This myth seems to confuse shooting stars with stars. The authors of the Qur'an and Hadiths probably thought stars and "shooting stars" were the same thing, when in reality they are not.

According to the Qur'an there was a man who could understand the speech of animals (Qur'an 27:18-19). While zoologists have formed methods of communicating with apes and chimps, no human being has ever been able to understand the "language" of species different from our own. The ability to speak like a human is formed by advanced brains with complex thought patterns, something most animals do not have. Therefore, to think that a man could understand the spoken language of another animal is absurd.

What is even worse is the verses cited have this man hearing the speech of ants! It is a scientific fact that ants have no speech patterns. They communicate through chemical trails, and other forms of odor. In otherwords they communicate via smell, not sound! This blunder is understandable, as the average desert Arab in the seventh century would not know this. However this lack of knowledge of the animal kingdom proves human origin of the text, and disputes theories of a divine origin.

The Qur'an states that Allah created the sky in layers. He created seven heavens, and decked the lowest heaven with lamps (Qur'an 67:3-5) and adorned it with the beauty of the stars (Qur'an 37:6). The Qur'an also states that the moon is within these seven heavens (Qur'an 71:15-16). If the stars (lamps) are in the lowest heaven, they are either closer to the earth than the moon, or are at an equal distance from the earth as the moon. Either way this is scientifically inaccurate. It is a known fact that the stars are much farther away than the moon.

The following Hadith speaks of monkeys that are Muslims:

Sahih Bulhari Volume 5, Book 58, Number 188:

Narrated 'Amr bin Maimun:

During the pre-lslamic period of ignorance I saw a she-monkey surrounded by a number of monkeys. They were all stoning it, because it had committed illegal sexual intercourse. I too, stoned it along with them.

It is a rule in both Islam and Judaism that women who commit adultery are to be stoned. According to the above Hadith monkeys were subject to this law as well. What other laws do monkeys follow? Are they required to make a pilgrimage to Mecca? Are they required to read the Qur'an? What constitutes adultery in the monkey world? This is simply a myth. This is similar to a story found in the Ramayana, an ancient Hindu epic, that talks of the monkey Hanuman, and others of his kind, fighting for control of the monkey kingdom.

There is a Hadith (Sahih Buklhari Volume 1, Book 9, Number 490) which states that if a woman or a dog passes in front of you while you are praying, your prayer will not make it to heaven. While there are chauvinistic implications here, I'd like to focus on the scientific aspect. What is it about women and dogs that nullify prayers? Are the prayers carried by a type of sonic wave that women and dogs disrupt? It is obvious that there is no scientific explanation to this absurd myth. No one should be surprised by this, as numerous Hadiths say dogs are evil, and should be killed. Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 54, Number 540 says plainly: "Allah's Apostle ordered that the dogs should be killed."

Of course when it comes to killing animals, there are different laws for different species. Dogs are to be killed instantly, however snakes are to first get verbal warning if he comes to your house. If the snake comes a second time, kill him (Sunan Abu Dawud Book 41, Number 5240). The interesting thing about such a Hadith is the fact that snakes cannot hear. It is bad enough to assume that any animal would understand you giving a verbal warning, but to assume that an animal that is deaf will understand you is ridiculous. It is the equivalent of writing a note for a bat, and leaving it on your door so that he may read it later.

The following Hadith shows the poor sanitation habits of Muhammad and his followers:

Sunan Abu Dawud Book 1, Number 0067:

Narrated AbuSa'id al-Khudri:

I heard that the people asked the Prophet of Allah (peace_be_upon_him): Water is brought for you from the well of Buda'ah. It is a well in which dead dogs, menstrual clothes and excrement of people are thrown. The Messenger of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) replied: Verily water is pure and is not defiled by anything.

The issue here is not hygiene, but rather a lack of scientific understanding of bacteria, viruses, and germs that can be present in water. Excrement is a very common cause of water becoming contaminated with Escherichia coli (E. coli), a bacteria commonly found in the colon that is deadly to humans if ingested. Water contaminated with dead dogs or menstrual fluids can be equally dangerous.


Conclusion

Muslims cite alleged scientific miracles in the Qur'an and Hadiths to try and prove a divine origin of their faith. In this short study of Islamic science, these claims have been debunked. Clearly there was no supernatural force giving Muhammad scientific information. While the Muslims argued that advanced scientific knowledge in the Qur'an is a sign of divine origin, the rational thinker points out that the numerous and obvious scientific errors point to a wholly human origin.[/spoiler:1wc04eab]

Some rebuttals to Denis' article go something along these lines: "Some things are a matter of faith. We, as Muslims, believe in the supernatural (Allah, p. b. u. h.). Therefore, whatever cannot be explained in the glorious Quran is immaterial, as God can do anything, regardless of our understanding."

Therein lies the greatest problem with this line of argumentation. Science and faith have different standards upon which to base the validity of claims. Faith requires nothing more than belief in the supernatural and miracles. Science, on the other hand, requires redundant sources, unbiased examination and hard evidence; not creatively interpreted thousand-year-old texts.

More later.

That 'article' has already been posted, and I've already posted a 'rebuttal'.

http://www.answering-christianity.com/b ... buttal.htm (http://www.answering-christianity.com/bassam_zawadi/islamsci_rebuttal.htm)

Let me know if anything contradicts after you go through it b/c from what I've read nothing does, perhaps you'll pick something up i missed.

I have a quick question, Risky, before I start spending quite a bit of time and effort on obvious trolling.

Correct me if I'm wrong. Your thesis is this: some of the scientific "foreknowledge" in the Qur'an correlates so clearly with modern scientific views that the source can be none other than supernatural.

Is that a pretty good summation, or would you like to add anything?

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"I have a quick question, Risky, before I start spending quite a bit of time and effort on obvious trolling.

Correct me if I'm wrong. Your thesis is this: some of the scientific "foreknowledge" in the Qur'an correlates so clearly with modern scientific views that the source can be none other than supernatural.

Is that a pretty good summation, or would you like to add anything?

Trolling, could you tell me what that means exactly? I've pretty much deduced a definition from the amount i see about it:  "One who posts something related to religion and never returns/debates. (Considered 'spam' pretty much)"

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=de ... tnG=Search (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=define%3Atrolling&btnG=Search)
-Messages intended solely to annoy and/or offend other users by going against the clear nature of a board...
-Deliberately posting false information in order to elicit responses from people who really want to help.
-To deliberately post false or controversial messages to gain attention for the sake of attention...

I don't even match up with what is on Google definitions/dictionary lol.. Am i really trolling?

Spot on with my thesis m8. (oi if you could keep to what I'm claiming not others lol)

(I explained it all wrong my mistake lol i'll post it later w/the ayat etc ; )

Quote from: "risky"Trolling, could you tell me what that means exactly? I've pretty much deduced a definition from the amount i see about it:  "One who posts something related to religion and never returns/debates. (Considered 'spam' pretty much)"

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=de ... tnG=Search (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=define%3Atrolling&btnG=Search)
-Messages intended solely to annoy and/or offend other users by going against the clear nature of a board...
-Deliberately posting false information in order to elicit responses from people who really want to help.
-To deliberately post false or controversial messages to gain attention for the sake of attention...

I don't even match up with what is on Google definitions/dictionary lol.. Am i really trolling?

Yeah, some... others you may have to go into a bit of detail.. for one instance Bee's in the Qur'an it describes the 'worker bee' (the bee that works/builds/etc) as a female using the female spelling of a Bee. It doesn't state 'worker bee' but it describes what the female bee is doing, which is in line with science.. Which is also correct because all the worker bee's are female.. but that could not have been known.. i mean when i look at a bee i don't know if its a male/female you'd have to get a fella whose dedicated his life to studying bee's to know (a specialist lol).. You know what.. that does go with my 'thesis' actually rofl.. i take what i said back. lol yeah sure Some of it does.  spot on m8

I consider it trolling because, aside from the couple posts in the SIKH thread, you have shown no desire or intention of participating in the rest of the message board. You are here (in my summation) solely for the purpose of trying to convince some non-believers in the existence of Allah (pbuh) by using their own tactics (science and logic, if I can call it that).

Bees aside, would you attest to some of the scientific "foreknowledge" in the Qur'an correlates so clearly with modern scientific views that the source can be none other than supernatural as your claim? A clear answer is appreciated.

"Some of the scientific "foreknowledge" in the Qur'an correlates so clearly with modern scientific views that the source can be none other than supernatural"

^ <- (up there)

I attest to the fact/statement/claim written above!

It feels like trolling to me, as well. I decided not to respond to this thread anymore because I don't sense any true thought for any argument that's been posted. Just more quotes from the Quaran and some bogus propositions. How can there be any real discussion here?

I, personally do not consider this trolling. I usually have a really low tolerance for spamming and trolling (as many of the members well know). I don't feel this is either one. Is it an often frustrating dialogue? Yes. And I've tried to point out why in a couple of posts. Also, participation in limited areas of the board does not mean someone is a troll. That can be a symptom of trolling, along with some others, but it doesn't indicate a troll in itself.

As unlike me as it is to say this, please be patient, guys. And in those instances when my lack-of-patience for a poster flares up and I get short with them, feel free to remind me of it too!  

Hey, I'm patient.  :D

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"Hey, I'm patient.  :D

It's cool, curio...

and I look forward to December, when we get your special rebuttal in time for the Festivus Celebration.  

Risky - if the Quran is such a scientifically accurate document, why did Allah leave all the scientific discovery to infidels?

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages28.fotki.com%2Fv1032%2Fphotos%2F8%2F892548%2F6116196%2Foh_snap-vi.gif&hash=9a1448d5e819d223250fc379a8cd2ae93bed2aeb)

 

Quote from: "myleviathan"Risky - if the Quran is such a scientifically accurate document, why did Allah leave all the scientific discovery to infidels?

Wonderfully easy, History has shown that muslims have done their share of scientific discoveries; in anatomy,medicine,math,astronomy etc etc..its easy to make the connection, Muslims cared about knowledge back then, they believed in the religion and followed its commands/'advice' its only obvious to realize..that the majority of Muslims are going back to ignorance as before Islam came about...(If you've read about the pre-Islamic era in arabia, pretty sick.. lol) muslims in general have been in a state of continuous decline for a very long time, not really following Islam as it should be followed; cherry pickers etc. Also just from the amount of stupidity some muslims claim to be doing in the name of Islam.

*~I can't wait for your rebuttal curious.

I

Quote from: "risky"Wonderfully easy, History has shown that muslims have done their share of scientific discoveries; in anatomy,medicine,math,astronomy etc etc

I don't disagree that Muslims have made advances. But if the Quran is the most scienfically accurate religious text, as you claim, it seems there should be more scientific advances from those who follow it 'as it should be followed'. Although there have been 'cherry pickers', shouldn't there also have been Muslims who would make the best and most exciting advances for the glory of Allah?

Could it be that the Quaran is no more scientifically accurate than any other ancient religious texts, as Muslims have had 'their share' of advancements but have not taken any significant lead in this arena?

Quote from: "myleviathan"

Quote from: "risky"Wonderfully easy, History has shown that muslims have done their share of scientific discoveries; in anatomy,medicine,math,astronomy etc etc

I don't disagree that Muslims have made advances. But if the Quran is the most scienfically accurate religious text, as you claim, it seems there should be more scientific advances from those who follow it 'as it should be followed'. Although there have been 'cherry pickers', shouldn't there also have been Muslims who would make the best and most exciting advances for the glory of Allah?

Could it be that the Quaran is no more scientifically accurate than any other ancient religious texts, as Muslims have had 'their share' of advancements but have not taken any significant lead in this arena?

Quote from: "myleviathan"“But if the Quran is the most scienfically accurate religious text, as you claim”

I have never claimed that, if I did could you direct me to the post?

Quote from: "myleviathan"“it seems there should be more scientific advances from those who follow it 'as it should be followed'.”

[spoiler:tptwf5p1]8th century
•   700s - [petroleum; civil engineering] The streets of the newly constructed Baghdad are paved with tar, coming from the petroleum that oozes in natural oil fields in the region.
•   700s - 800s - [cosmetics] Ziryab (Blackbird) starts a beauty institute in Spain.
•   740 - 828 - Al-Ama'i, Zoology, Botany, Animal husbandry.
•   770 - 840 - [mathematics] Kharazmi (Persian: خوارزÙ...ÙŠ, in Arabic became اÙ,,خوارزÙ...ÙŠ al-Khwarizmi, Latinized name Algorithm). Developed the "calculus of resolution and juxtaposition" (hisab al-jabr w'al-muqabala), more briefly referred to as al-jabr, or algebra. [1] gives an idea on the utility of this development: "Algebra was a unifying theory which allowed rational numbers, irrational numbers, geometrical magnitudes, etc., to all be treated as "algebraic objects". It gave mathematics a whole new development path so much broader in concept to that which had existed before, and provided a vehicle for future development of the subject. Another important aspect of the introduction of algebraic ideas was that it allowed mathematics to be applied to itself in a way which had not happened before. As Rashed writes in [2] (see also [3]):- Al-Khwarizmi's successors undertook a systematic application of arithmetic to algebra, algebra to arithmetic, both to trigonometry, algebra to the Euclidean theory of numbers, algebra to geometry, and geometry to algebra. This was how the creation of polynomial algebra, combinatorial analysis, numerical analysis, the numerical solution of equations, the new elementary theory of numbers, and the geometric construction of equations arose."
•   776 - 868 - [zoology; language] 'Amr ibn Bahr Al-Jahiz. Zoology, Arabic grammar, rhetoric, lexicography.
•   late 700s - early 800s - [music] Mansour Zalzal of Kufa. Musician (luth) and composer of the Abbasid era. Contributed musical scales that were later named after him (the Mansouri scale) and introduced positions (intervals) within scales such as the wasati-zalzal that was equidistant from the alwasati alqadima and wasati al-fors. Made improvements on the design of the luth instrument and designed the Luth. Teacher of Is-haq al-Mawsili.

9th century
•   800 - 873 - [various] Ibn Ishaq Al-Kindi (latinized, Alkindus.) Philosophy, Physics, Optics, Medicine, Mathematics, Cryptography, Metallurgy. Worked at the House of Wisdom which was set up in 810.
•   803 - [chemistry; glass] d. Abu-Moussa Jabir ibn Hayyan (Latinized name, Geber,). Famous Persian chemist. First chemist known to produce sulfuric acid, as well as many other chemicals and instruments. Wrote on adding color to glass by adding small quantities of metallic oxides to the glass, such as manganese dioxide (magnesia). This was a new advancement in glass industry unknown in antiquity. His works include "The elaboration of the Grand Elixir"; "The chest of wisdom" in which he writes on nitric acid; Kitab al-istitmam (translated to Latin later as Summa Perfectionis); and others.
•   ca. 810 Bayt al-Hikma (House of Wisdom) set up in Baghdad. There Greek and Indian mathematical and astronomy works are translated into Arabic.
•   820 - [mathematics] Mahani (full name Abu Abdollah Muhammad ibn Isa Mahani - in Arabic Al-Mahani). Conceived the idea of reducing geometrical problems such as duplicating the cube to problems in algebra. [1]
•   836 - 901 [anatomy; astronomy; mathematics; mechanics] Born Thabit Ibn Qurra (latinized, Thebit.) Studied at Baghdad's House of Wisdom under the Banu Musa brothers. Made many contributions to mathematics, particularly in geometry and number theory. He discovered the theorem by which pairs of amicable numbers can be found; i.e., two numbers such that each is the sum of the proper divisors of the other.[1] Later, al-Baghdadi (b. 980) and al-Haytham (born 965) developed variants of the theorem.
•   838 - 870 - Tabari (full name: Ali ibn Sahl Rabban Al-Tabari). Medicine, Mathematics, Calligraphy, Literature. [4]
•   mid 800s - [chemistry] Al-Kindi writes on the distillation of wine as that of rose water and gives 107 recipes for perfumes, in his book Kitab Kimia al-`otoor wa al-tas`eedat (book of the chemistry of perfumes and distillations.)
•   850 - 930 [mathematics] born Abu Kamil of Egypt (full name, Abu Kamil Shuja ibn Aslam ibn Muhammad ibn Shuja) Forms an important link in the development of algebra between al-Khwarizmi and al-Karaji. Despite not using symbols, but writing powers of x in words, he had begun to understand what we would write in symbols as  .[1]
•   858 - 929 - [astronomy - mathematics] Al-Battani (Albategnius) Works on astronomy, trigonometry etc.
•   ca. 860 - Al-Farghani (Al-Fraganus) Astronomy, Civil engineering.
•   864 - 930 - [chemistry; medicine; ...] Razi (Rhazes) Medicine, Ophthalmology, Smallpox, Chemistry, Astronomy. Al-Razi wrote on Naft (naphta or petroleum) and its distillates in his book "Kitab sirr al-asrar" (book of the secret of secrets.) When choosing a site to build Baghdad's hospital, he hung pieces of fresh meat in different parts of the city. The location where the meat took the longest to rot was the one he chose for building the hospital. Advocated that patients not be told their real condition so that fear or despair do not affect the healing process. Wrote on alkali, caustic soda, soap and glycerine. Gave descriptions of equipment processes and methods in his book Kitab al-Asrar (book of secrets) in 925.
•   870 - 950 - Farabi (Al-Pharabius) Sociology, Logic, Philosophy, Political science, Music.
•   888 - [various] Died 'Abbas Ibn Firnas. Mechanics of Flight, Planetarium, Artificial Crystals. Ibn Firnas investigated means of flight and was apparently injured due to a trial in which he attempted to fly off of a cliff using wings. One of the earliest records of attempts at flight.
•   800s - [chemistry; petroleum] Oilfields in Baku, Azerbaijan, generate commercial activities and industry. These oilfields, were wells are dug to get the Naft (or naphta, or crude petroleum) are described by geographer Masudi in the 10th century and by Marco Polo in the 13th century, who described the output of those wells as hundreds of shiploads.

10th century
•   900s [mathematics; accounting] By this century, three systems of counting are used in the Arab world. Finger-reckoning arithmetic, with numerals written entirely in words, used by the business community; the sexagesimal system, a remnant originating with the Babylonians, with numerals denoted by letters of the arabic alphabet and used by Arab mathematicians in astronomical work; and the Hindu-Arabic numeral system, which was used with various sets of symbols [1]. Its arithmetic at first required the use of a dust board (a sort of handheld blackboard) because "the methods required moving the numbers around in the calculation and rubbing some out as the calculation proceeded." Al-Uqlidisi (born 920) modified these methods for pen and paper use [1]. Eventually the advances enabled by the decimal system led to its standard use throughout the region and the world.
•   903 - 986 [astronomy] Al-Sufi (latinized name, Azophi).
•   920 [mathematics] Born al-Uqlidisi. Modified arithmetic methods for the Indian numeral system to make it possible for pen and paper use. Hitherto, doing calculations with the Indian numerals necessitated the use of a dust board as noted earlier.
•   936 - 1013 [medicine] Al-Zahrawi (latinized name, Albucasis) Surgery, Medicine. Called the "Father of Modern Surgery." [4]
•   940 - 997 [astronomy; mathematics] Muhammad Al-Buzjani. Mathematics, Astronomy, Geometry, Trigonometry.
•   940 [mathematics] Born Abu'l-Wafa al-Buzjani. Wrote several treatises using the finger-counting system of arithmetic, and was also an expert on the Indian numerals system. About the Indian system he wrote: "[it] did not find application in business circles and among the population of the Eastern Caliphate for a long time." [1] Using the Indian numeral system, abu'l Wafa was able to extract roots.
•   953 [mathematics] Born al-Karaji of Karaj and Baghdad (full name, Abu Bekr ibn Muhammad ibn al-Husayn Al-Karaji or al-Karkhi). Believed to be the "first person to completely free algebra from geometrical operations and to replace them with the arithmetical type of operations which are at the core of algebra today. He was first to define the monomials x, x2, x3, ... and 1 / x, 1 / x2, 1 / x3, ... and to give rules for products of any two of these. He started a school of algebra which flourished for several hundreds of years" [1]. Discovered the binomial theorem for integer exponents. [1] states that this "was a major factor in the development of numerical analysis based on the decimal system."
•   957 [geography; cartography; exploration; chemistry] died Abul Hasan Ali Al-Masudi, best known as a cartographer, was also a traveler historian, etc. Al-mas`oudi described his visit to the oilfields of Baku. Wrote on the reaction of alkali water with zaj (vitriol) water giving sulfuric acid.
•   965 - 1040 [mathematics; optics; physics] Born ibn al-Haitham (full name, ; latinized name, Alhazen). Possibly the first to classify all even perfect numbers (i.e., numbers equal to the sum of their proper divisors) as those of the form 2k âˆ' 1(2k âˆ' 1) where 2k âˆ' 1 is prime number [1]. Al-Haytham is also the first person to state Wilson's theorem. if p is prime than 1 + (p âˆ' 1)! is divisible by p. [1] says "It is called Wilson's theorem because of a comment by Waring in 1770 that John Wilson had noticed the result. There is no evidence that Wilson knew how to prove it. It was over 750 years later that Lagrange gave the first known proof to the statement in 1771.[1]
•   972 - 1058 [humanities] Al-Mawardi (Alboacen) Political science, Sociology, Jurisprudence, Ethics.
•   973 - 1048 [mathematics; physics] Abu Raihan Al-Biruni; Astronomy, Mathematics. Determined Earth's circumference.
•   980 [mathematics] Born al-Baghdadi (full name, ). Studied a slight variant of Thabit ibn Qurra's theorem on amicable numbers.[1] Al-Baghdadi also wrote texts comparing the three systems of counting and arithmetic used in the region during this period. Made improvements on the decimal system.
•   981 - 1037 [astronomy; mathematics; medicine; philosophy] Ibn Sina (Avicenna); Medicine, Philosophy, Mathematics, Astronomy.Is considered to be the father of modern medicine

11th century
•   1000s - [related] First wave of devastation of Muslim resources, lives, properties, institutions, and infrastructure over a period of one hundred years: Fall of Muslim Toledo (1085), Malta (1090), Sicily (1091) and Jerusalem (1099). Several Crusades.
•   1028 - 1087 - [astronomy] Al-Zarqali (Arzachel.) Invented the Astrolabe.
•   1044 or 1048 - 1123 [mathematics] Omar Al-Khayyam. Persian mathematician and poet. "Gave a complete classification of cubic equations with geometric solutions found by means of intersecting conic sections. Khayyam also wrote that he hoped to give a full description of the algebraic solution of cubic equations in a later work: 'If the opportunity arises and I can succeed, I shall give all these fourteen forms with all their branches and cases, and how to distinguish whatever is possible or impossible so that a paper, containing elements which are greatly useful in this art will be prepared.' " [1]. Extracted roots using the decimal system (the Indian numeral system). There is dispute whether the Maqamat, a famous diwan of poetry translated to English are actually his work.
•   1058 - 1111 [law; theology] Al-Ghazali (Algazel), judge and prolific thinker and writer on topics such as sociology, theology and philosophy. He critiqued the so-called Greek philosophers Ibn Sina, aka Avicenna and al-Farabi, aka Farabius. Wrote extensive expositions on Islamic tenets and foundations of jurisprudence. Also critiqued the Muslim scholastics (al-mutakallimun.) Was associated with sufism but he later critiqued it as well.
•   1091 - 1161 [medicine] Ibn Zuhr (Avenzoar) Surgery, Medicine.
•   1099 - 1166 [cartography;geography] Muhammad Al-Idrisi (Dreses). Among his works are a world Map and the first known globe.

12th century
•   1100 - 1166 (AH 493 - 560) [cartography, geography] Muhammad al-Idrissi, aka Idris al-Saqalli aka al-sharif al-idrissi of Andalusia and Sicily. Said to draw the first correct map of the world "lawh al-tarsim" (plank of draught). His maps were used extensively during the explorations of the era of European renaissance. Roger II of Sicily commemorated his world map on a circle of silver weighing about 400 pounds. Works include Nozhat al-mushtaq fi ikhtiraq al-&agrav;faq dedicated to Roger II of Sicily, which is a compendium of the geographic and sociologic knowledge of his time as well as descriptions of his own travels illustrated with over seventy maps; Kharitat al-`alam al-ma`mour min al-ard (Map of the inhabited regions of the earth) wherein he divided the world into 7 regions, the first extending from the equator to 23 degrees latitude, and the seventh being from 54 to 63 degrees followed by a region uninhabitable due to cold and snow.
•   1106 - 1138 [polymath] Abu Bakr Muhammad Ibn Yahya (Ibn Bajjah) Philosophy, Medicine, Mathematics, Astronomy, Poetry, Music.
•   1110 - 1185 [literature, philosophy] Abdubacer Ibn Tufayl of Spain. Philosophy, medicine, poetry, fiction. His most famous work is Hayy ibn Yaqzan, which is a spiritual investigation into the reality of the world narrated by a man who was raised from infancy by a roe or gazelle.
•   1128 - 1198 [philosophy] Ibn Rushd (Averroes) Philosophy, Law, Medicine, Astronomy, Theology.
•   1130 [mathematics] Born al-Samawal. An important member of al-Karaji's school of algebra. Gave this definition of algebra: "[it is concerned] with operating on unknowns using all the arithmetical tools, in the same way as the arithmetician operates on the known." [1]
•   1135 [mathematics] Born Sharafeddin Tusi. Follows al-Khayyam's application of algebra of geometry, rather than follow the general development that came through al-Karaji's school of algebra. Wrote a treatise on cubic equations which [3] describes thus: "[the treatise] represents an essential contribution to another algebra which aimed to study curves by means of equations, thus inaugurating the beginning of algebraic geometry." (quoted in [1]).

13th century
•   1200s - [related] "Second wave of devastation of Muslim resources, lives, properties, institutions, and infrastructure over a period of one hundred and twelve years. Crusader invasions (1217-1291) and Mongol invasions (1219-1329). Crusaders active throughout the Mediterranean from Jerusalem and west to Muslim Spain. Fall of Muslim Córdoba (1236), Valencia (1238) and Seville (1248). Mongols devastation from the eastern most Muslim frontier, Central and Western Asia, India, Persia to Arab heartland. Fall of Baghdad (1258) and the end of Abbasid Caliphate. Two million Muslims massacred in Baghdad. Major scientific institutions, laboratories, and infrastructure destroyed in leading Muslim centers of civilization."
•   1200s - [medicine; scientific method] Ibn Al-Nafis b. ca. 607AH, d. ca. 689AH. Damascene physician and anatomist. Discovered the lesser circulatory system (the cycle involving the ventricles of the heart and the lungs), and described the mechanism of breathing and its relation to the blood and how it nourishes on air in the lungs. Followed a "constructivist" path of the smaller circulatory system: "blood is purified in the lungs for the continuance of life and providing the body with the ability to work". During his time, the common view was that blood originates in the liver then travels to the right ventricle, then on to the organs of the body; another contemporary view was that blood is filtered through the diaphragm where it mixes with the air coming from the lungs. Ibn al-Nafis discredited all these views including ones by Galen and Avicenna (ibn Sina). At least an illustration of his manuscript is still extant. William Harvey explained the circulatory system without reference to ibn al-Nafis in 1628. Ibn al-Nafis extolled the study of comparative anatomy in his "Explaining the dissection of [Avicenna's] Al-Qanoon" which includes a prefaces, and citations of sources. Emphasized the rigours of verification by measurement, observation and experiment. Subjected conventional wisdom of his time to a critical review and verified it with experiment and observation, discarding errors.
•   1200s - [chemistry] Al-Jawbari describes the preparation of rose water in the work "Book of Selected Disclosure of Secrets" (Kitab kashf al-Asrar).
•   1200s - [chemistry; materials; glassmaking] Arabic manuscript on the manufacture of false gemstones and diamonds. Also describes spirits of alum, spirits of saltpetre and spirits of salts (hydrochloric acid).
•   1200s - [chemistry] An Arabic manuscript written in syriac script gives description of various chemical materials and their properties such as sulfuric acid, sal-ammoniac, saltpetre and zaj (vitriol).
•   1201 - 1274 - [astronomy; mathematics] Nasir Al-Din Al-Tusi; Astronomy, Non-Euclidean geometry.
•   1204 [astronomy] Died, Al-Bitruji (Alpetragius.)
•   1207 - 1273 [sociology; poetry; spirituality] Jalal al-Din Muhammad Rumi, one of the best known Persian passion poets, famous for poignant poetry on the theme of spiritual enlightenment and passion.
•   1213 - 1288 [anatomy] Ibn Al-Nafis al-Damishqui.
•   1248 - [pharmacy; veterinary medicine] Died Ibn Al-Baitar. Studied and wrote on botany, pharmacy and is best known for studying animal anatomy and medicine. The Arabic term for veterinary medicine is named after him.
•   1260 [mathematics] Born al-Farisi. Gave a new proof of Thabit ibn Qurra's theorem, introducing important new ideas concerning factorization and combinatorial methods. He also gave the pair of amicable numbers 17296, 18416 which have also been joint attributed to Fermat as well as Thabit ibn Qurra [1].
•   1273 - 1331 [astronomy; geography; history] Abu al-Fida (Abulfeda).
•   1277 - [materials; glass and ceramics] A treaty for the transfer of glassmaking technology signed between the crusader Bohemond VII, titular prince of Antioch and the Doge of Venice leads to the transfer of Syrian glassworkers and their trade secrets and the subsequent rise of Venetian glass industry, the most prominent in Europe for centuries. The techniques henceforth, closely guarded by Venitians only become known in France in the 1600s.

14th century
•   1301 - [ceramics] Al-Kashani promotes a center for ceramics. He also writes a book on Islamic ceramics techniques. His name is still associated with ceramics in the Muslim Orient today.
•   1304 - 1369 [exploration; travel] Abu Abdullah Muhammad ibn Battuta; World Traveler. 75,000 mile voyage from Morocco to China and back.
•   1332 - 1395 [history; political science; humanities] Ibn Khaldun. Sociology, Philosophy of History, general science, Political Science. His most famous work, al-Muqqadima (Prolegomena), encyclopedic in breadth, surveys the state of knowledge of his day, covering geography, accounts of the peoples of the world and their known history, the classification and aims of the sciences and the religious sciences.
•   1380 [mathematics] Born al-Kashi. According to [1], "contributed to the development of decimal fractions not only for approximating algebraic numbers, but also for real numbers such as pi. His contribution to decimal fractions is so major that for many years he was considered as their inventor. Although not the first to do so, al-Kashi gave an algorithm for calculating nth roots which is a special case of the methods given many centuries later by Ruffini and Horner."
•   1393 - 1449 - [astronomy] Ulugh Beg commissions an observatory at Samarqand in present-day Uzbekistan.

15th century
•   1400s - 1500s - [related] Third wave of devastation of Muslim resources, lives, properties, institutions, and infrastructure. End of Muslim rule in Spain (1492). More than one million volumes of Muslim works on science, arts, philosophy and culture were burnt in the public square of Vivarrambla in Granada. Colonization began in Africa, Asia, and the Americas. Refer to "A Chronology of Muslim History Parts IV, V (e.g., 1455, 1494, 1500, 1510, 1524, and 1538)"
•   1400s [mathematics] Ibn al-Banna and al-Qalasadi used symbols for mathematics in the 15th century "and, although we do not know exactly when their use began, we know that symbols were used at least a century before this." [1]
•   1400s - [astronomy and mathematics] Ibn Masoud (Ghayyathuddin Jamshid ibn mohamed ibn mas`oud, d. 1424 or 1436.) First to use the decimal point in arithmetic. Wrote on the decimal system. First to introduce the zero (Indian mathematicians had used only nine glyphs for numerals). Computed and observed the solar eclipses of 809AH, 810AH and 811AH, after being invited by Ulugh Bek, based in Samarqand to pursue his study of mathematics, astronomy and physics. His works include "The Key of arithmetics"; "Discoveries in mathematics"; "The Decimal point"; "the benefits of the zero". The contents of the Benefits of the Zero are an introduction followed by five essays: On whole number arithmetic; On fractional arithmetic; on astrology; on areas; on finding the unknowns [unknown variables]. He also wrote a "Thesis on the sine and the chord"; "thesis on the circumference" in which he found the ratio of the circumference to the [[[radius]] of a circle to the 16th decimal; "The garden of gardens" or "promenade of the gardens" describing an instrument he devised and used at the Samarqand observatory to compile an ephemeris, and for computing solar and lunar eclipses; The ephemeresis "Zayj Al-Khaqani" which also includes mathematical tables and corrections of the ephemeresis by Al-Tusi; "Thesis on finding the first degree sine"; and more.
•   1411 [mathematics] Al-Kashi writes Compendium of the Science of Astronomy [5].
•   1424 [mathematics] Al-Kashi writes Treatise on the Circumference giving a remarkably good approximation to pi in both sexagesimal and decimal forms [5].
•   1427 [mathematics] Al-Kashi completes The Key to Arithmetic containing work of great depth on decimal fractions. It applies arithmetical and algebraic methods to the solution of various problems, including several geometric ones and is one of the best textbooks in the whole of medieval literature [5].
•   1437 [mathematics] Ulugh Beg publishes his star catalogue Zij-i Sultani. It contains trigonometric tables correct to eight decimal places based on Ulugh Beg's calculation of the sine of one degree which he calculated correctly to 16 decimal places [5].

17th century
•   1600s [flight; rocketry] Turkish scientist Hezarfen Ahmet Celebi took off from Galata tower and flew over the Bosphorus. Lagari Hasan Çelebi, another member of the Celebi family, sent the first manned rocket, using 150 okka (about 300 pounds) of gunpowder as the firing fuel. This is more than two hundred years before similar attempts in Modern Europe and the United States.
•   1600s [mathematics] The Arabic mathematician Mohammed Baqir Yazdi joint discovered the pair of amicable numbers 9,363,584 and 9,437,056 along with Descartes (1636) [2].
  Galata or Galatae is a district in Istanbul, the largest city of Turkey. ...      November 5, 1605 ââ,¬â€ The Gunpowder Plot to blow up the British Parliament. ... Amicable numbers are two numbers so related that the sum of the proper divisors of the one is equal to the other, unity being considered as a proper divisor but not the number itself. ...  

18th century
•   1783 - 1799 - [rocketry] Tipu, Sultan of Mysore [1783-1799] in the south of India, was an experimenter with war rockets. Two of his rockets, captured by the British at Srirangapatana, are displayed in the Woolwich Royal Artillery Museum in London. The rocket motor casing was made of steel with multiple nozzles. The rocket, 50 mm in diameter and 250 mm long, had a range performance of 900 meters to 1.5 km. (src: http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/&#41; (http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/&#41;).

Source:
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedi ... amic-world (http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Timeline-of-science-and-technology-in-the-Islamic-world)[/spoiler:tptwf5p1]

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''Why did Muslim science decline?'' he said. ''That's a very Western question. It flourished for a thousand years -- no civilization on Earth has flourished that long in that way.''

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h ... gewanted=3 (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9802E4D91730F933A05753C1A9679C8B63&sec=technology&spon=&pagewanted=3)

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(What the rest of the world produced during that time period (not much diversity lol... Probably why they called it the "Dark Ages" ) -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_invention (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_invention) )

Quote from: "risky"“But if the Quran is the most scienfically accurate religious text, as you claim”

I have never claimed that, if I did could you direct me to the post?

Do you disagree? Do you think there is a religious text that is more scientifically accurate than the Quran? C'mon (lol)! That's been a major theme in each of your posts.

Regarding your lengthy list of Muslim contributions - no one disagrees with you. Muslims made contributions. They should get credit for those.

But to claim the hard work of others as part of your own religious heritage is morally wrong. You're attempting to glorify your God (and yourself, in essense) with advancements made by non-muslims. It seems that Allah is the type of God that would want His own people to discover the wonderful things that you say he prophesied in the scriptures of old. Why would he include prophecies in His sacred text, just to have infidels make the actual discoveries? And furthermore to have His own people attempt to convince atheists that Allah knew all along? It doesn't make sense.

Quote from: "myleviathan"Do you disagree? Do you think there is a religious text that is more scientifically accurate than the Quran? C'mon (lol)! That's been a major theme in each of your posts.

I don't know you tell me. ; )

Quote from: "myleviathan"But to claim the hard work of others as part of your own religious heritage is morally wrong. You're attempting to glorify your God (and yourself, in essense) with advancements made by non-muslims. It seems that Allah is a God that would want his own people to discover these things that you say he prophesied in the scriptures of old. Why would he make a prophecy and then have infidels make the true discoveries, and then have his people try to convince atheists that Allah knew all along? It doesn't make sense.

Really it took me a while to understand what you were saying (a few seconds lol it didn't register)... Do you not understand the Concept of God? That should really answer your question, I don't think i have to explain it lol... but i guess i kinda will.. lol as for people who don't believe in Islam making the 'true' discoveries, lol i could argue they were never discoveries but merely uncovering the way the universe works... and God has already stated that for us.. we're just reaffirming what God has already revealed to us.. lol i mean come on does it matter who uncovered/'discovered' it? It has been there for 1,400 years does it make a difference who realized that it was really so and the Quran was right/correct all along with its verses...? Seriously just consider the fact that it is in this book of "old" ; )

Quote from: "myleviathan"you say he prophesied in the scriptures of old

Prophesied in the "scriptures" of old? (Its one Book btw, its not a set of 'books' like the bible)

Prophesy: "to predict a future event under the influence of divine guidance."
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=de ... tnG=Search (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=define%3Aprophesy&btnG=Search)

'To predict a future event'... O_O it was not predicted/prophesied BY Allah (God) lol it was stated...  But to everyone else here it was a 'guess', by Muhammed; not even a prophecy but a 'guess', that was by chance 'correct'

Quote from: "myleviathan"It seems that Allah is a God that would...

This Allah is the same God, Jews and Christians worship. (Well in the matter of Christians, i guess it would be considered past tense b/c they now add Jesus and the holy ghost into the mix, that was not always the case though...mmm nvm just b/c they attribute to god doesn't mean..well.. they don't kinda worship God.. lol hmm... lol good Q : )  Like Jesus who came to 'guide' the Jews after they became corrupted/deviated from the Religion, Muhammed came after 'Christianity' (Jesus never called Christianity, Christianity you can thank Emperor Constantine for that & the trinity) became corrupted.. (If you don't think it has lol look into the origins of Christmas; &, mithrism and Christianity) and there was no 'guidance' lol sooo as muslims we do believe in the prophets david,abraham,isaac, jesus, etc.. lol enough of that.. Allah is the same God. (Allah can never be plural/etc no such thing as Allah's; like God can become Gods lol...) [I think i drifted to much lol]

Quote from: "risky"i mean come on does it matter who uncovered/'discovered' it?

Obviously, it does; your entire point is based upon this.

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"

Quote from: "risky"i mean come on does it matter who uncovered/'discovered' it?

Obviously, it does; your entire point is based upon this.

Fantastic your right; so your telling me what they discovered/uncovered is false? Because i could dispute you on that matter.

In any case it only strengthens the validity if someone who is not Muslim discovered it lol.. one would only wonder.. if a Muslim had discovered it, it would be to much of a coincidence... ; ) your right it matters and it only fortifies my position

Postdiction is not scientific discovery.

Quote from: "risky"In any case it only strengthens the validity if someone who is not Muslim discovered it lol.. one would only wonder.. if a Muslim had discovered it, it would be to much of a coincidence... ; ) your right it matters and it only fortifies my position

No offense, Risky - but this statement doesn't make sense. You're saying that your religious text contains forknowledge of highly advanced scientific discovery. Wouldn't Allah wish to be glorified by his followers making the discoveries He stated in the Quran? Why would it be too much of a coincidence for this to happen? I think that would strengthen your case.

Quote from: "myleviathan"No offense, Risky - but this statement doesn't make sense. You're saying that your religious text contains forknowledge of highly advanced scientific discovery. Wouldn't Allah wish to be glorified by his followers making the discoveries He stated in the Quran? Why would it be too much of a coincidence for this to happen? I think that would strengthen your case.

Does it disprove anything I've posted? Tell me that?

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"Postdiction is not scientific discovery.

Show me how what I've posted is Postdiction.

(According to Wiki: "According to critics of paranormal beliefs, postdiction (or post-shadowing, retroactive clairvoyance, or prediction after the fact) is an effect of hindsight bias that explains claimed predictions of significant events, such as plane crashes and natural disasters. In religious contexts it is frequently referred to by the Latin term vaticinium ex eventu, or foretelling after the event. Through this term, critics claim that many biblical prophecies (and similar prophecies in other religions) that may appear to have come true were in fact written after the events supposedly predicted, or that their text or interpretation were modified after the event to fit the facts as they occurred." Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postdiction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postdiction))

Please go through each one of the verses I've posted and show how it's considered postdiction; rather then state it's Postdiction/Vague show me; enlighten me.

Quote from: "risky""He hath loosed the two seas. They meet. There is a barrier between them. They encroach not (one upon the other)."
55:19-20
_______________________________________________________________

"Modern Science has discovered that in the places where two different seas meet, there is a barrier between them." (1)

"It is a necessity that seas intermingle through straits between them. The Koran however is aware of a very unusual phenomenon, which scientists discovered only recently. The Mediterranean and Atlantic oceans differ in their chemical and biological constitution. The French scientist Jacques Yves Cousteau conducted various undersea investigations at the Strait of Gibraltar and explaining these phenomena concluded:

"Unexpected fresh water springs issue from the southern and northern coasts of Gibraltar. These mammoth springs gush towards each other at angles of 45 degrees forming a reciprocal dam. Due to this fact the Mediterranean and the Atlantic Oceans cannot intermingle (as quoted by Nurbaki)." (2)

According to the Cousteau Society; Jacques Yves was born on 11 June 1910 & Died on 25 June 1997. (3)


Sources:
1- http://www.sunnahonline.com/ilm/quran/qms.pdf (http://www.sunnahonline.com/ilm/quran/qms.pdf)
2- http://www.bigissueground.com/atheistgr ... ence.shtml (http://www.bigissueground.com/atheistground/asadi-koranscience.shtml)
3- http://www.cousteau.org/jyc.html (http://www.cousteau.org/jyc.html)
___________________________________________________________________________________
For more on Jacques Yves visit:  http://www.infoplease.com/biography/var ... steau.html (http://www.infoplease.com/biography/var/jacquescousteau.html)

Taken from a website you yourself have cited (in the quote above), http://www.bigissueground.com (http://www.bigissueground.com):

QuoteThe Qur’an has other errors of nature, where 51:49, says of life in creation, "And of everything we have created pairs that ye may reflect" (see also 43:12; 50:7). So for all animals they are created in pairs. This is an obvious denial of the fact that numerous species produce asexually, not in pairs.

The Qur’an also contains scientific anachronisms of longevity. The Qur’an 18:25 tells the story of some men who slept in a cave for 309 years. Why they did not die very soon due to dehydration and lack of sunlight is not explained.

The Qur’an has many genetic myths about how humans are born, etc. The Qur’an 86:6-7 says that semen comes from between a man's backbone and ribs. We know today from biology studies that semen comes from the male genitalia, so once again, a very inaccurate statement coming from the Qur’an.

Qur’an 2:261 tells us that every ear of corn has 100 grains. This has not been proven scientifically and is more than obviously false. It brings into question the scientific accuracy of the Qur’an and whether the Qur’an is really addressing scientific issues

Qur’an 27:18, tells the story of a talking ant in the time of King Solomon. Ants do not communicates with words, but with scent and smell, etc. This is a scientific error, regarding nature.

The Qur'an is not a scientific text. Do not labor under the apprehension that verses interpreted as such can prove anything, short of interesting coincidences. Nostradamus may have made some startlingly accurate predictions, but that does not give him credence as a conduit for God.

Let's continue with your quoting from the Wikipedia definition of "postdiction."

Quote from: "Wikipedia"After the event has occurred, however, details are shoehorned into the prediction by the psychics or their supporters using selective thinking â€" emphasize the "hits", ignore the "misses" â€" in order to lend credence to the prophecy and give the impression of an accurate "prediction". Inaccurate predictions are simply not mentioned.

The defines your account of the scientific "accuracies" of the Qur'an.

You may have all the arguments laid out, spread before you, ready to pick and present to us. I can imagine you've done this a dozen times; that you probably have some formal education involving Qur'an apologetics. I do not. What I do have is an honest and sincere view of science, history, and the English translation of the Qur'an. You may say, as has been said before, that any translation is no longer the Qur'an, as the Qur'an is the divine word of Allah and cannot be altered. Indeed, the Qur'an itself is akin to Christ in the Christian tradition: the personification, the living, tangible God. And I understand: if the Qur'an is the unfailing, unchangeable, pure word of God, then any inaccuracy or mistake brings the whole house of cards down. There is a lot to lose. It must all be correct or none of it is.

Well, we do not believe it is such a holy book. We do not believe it is the word of any god, save man, who so truly wishes to be god. We believe it is an honest, if misguided, attempt to understand the world and control a population. Likewise, the attempt to turn (admittedly poetic and rather beautiful) phrases into something more than an antiquated moral guidebook is offensive to both any modern thinker's sensibility and to anyone who properly understands the definition of science:

Quote from: "Oxford English Dictionary"In modern use, often treated as synonymous with ‘Natural and Physical Science’, and thus restricted to those branches of study that relate to the phenomena of the material universe and their laws, sometimes with implied exclusion of pure mathematics. This is now the dominant sense in ordinary use.

In order to bring the Qur'an into the realm of science it must necessarily be removed from the realm of metascience, i.e., religion. One does not study The Origin of Species as a spiritual text; nor does one study The Watchtower as scientific text.

Have your cake or eat it; do not attempt both.

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"Taken from a website you yourself have cited (in the quote above), http://www.bigissueground.com (http://www.bigissueground.com):

I don’t see what this proves lol ( fyi the link isn't working  )

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"The Qur’an has other errors of nature, where 51:49, says of life in creation, "And of everything we have created pairs that ye may reflect" (see also 43:12; 50:7). So for all animals they are created in pairs. This is an obvious denial of the fact that numerous species produce asexually, not in pairs.

The Qur’an also contains scientific anachronisms of longevity. The Qur’an 18:25 tells the story of some men who slept in a cave for 309 years. Why they did not die very soon due to dehydration and lack of sunlight is not explained.

The Qur’an has many genetic myths about how humans are born, etc. The Qur’an 86:6-7 says that semen comes from between a man's backbone and ribs. We know today from biology studies that semen comes from the male genitalia, so once again, a very inaccurate statement coming from the Qur’an.

Qur’an 2:261 tells us that every ear of corn has 100 grains. This has not been proven scientifically and is more than obviously false. It brings into question the scientific accuracy of the Qur’an and whether the Qur’an is really addressing scientific issues

Qur’an 27:18, tells the story of a talking ant in the time of King Solomon. Ants do not communicates with words, but with scent and smell, etc. This is a scientific error, regarding nature.

I’ll take care of each one for you.

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"“The Qur’an has other errors of nature, where 51:49, says of life in creation, "And of everything we have created pairs that ye may reflect" (see also 43:12; 50:7). So for all animals they are created in pairs. This is an obvious denial of the fact that numerous species produce asexually, not in pairs. “

“We know from elementary particle physics that EVERY THING,or EVERYTHING, depending on the translation used, that is visible or invisible to the naked eyes, is made up of matter (or antimatter), which is in turn made up of particles. We also know that for EVERY TYPE of particle there is an antiparticle. This is one possible explanation on how "OF every thing" or "OF everything", we get pairs: Particles and antiparticles. "All things" or "everything" , can be seen as belonging to one those groups: Particles or their corresponding antiparticles, such as a proton and an antiproton (same mass but of opposite electric charge), an electron and a positron (same mass but of opposite electric charge), a neutron and an antineutron, and more recently scientists have known about quarks, and anti-quarks!

Here is a link for a proof of what i am saying (it is quite technical, from Stanford University): http://www2.slac.stanford.edu/vvc/theor ... uarks.html (http://www2.slac.stanford.edu/vvc/theory/antiquarks.html)"

( Source: http://commonsensemessiah.blogspot.com/ ... s-are.html (http://commonsensemessiah.blogspot.com/2005/08/contradictions-in-quran-all-things-are.html) )

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"“The Qur’an also contains scientific anachronisms of longevity. The Qur’an 18:25 tells the story of some men who slept in a cave for 309 years. Why they did not die very soon due to dehydration and lack of sunlight is not explained.”

Did you bother to read how they were put to sleep? Who put them to sleep for that number of years? God put them to ‘sleep’ for that long, if he could do that; couldn’t he sustain their lives? Not science but a miracle, but wait your source doesn't tell you that.. hmm.. deceitful.. (Also the Quran does not state that it was 309 years, your source is again flawed)

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"“The Qur’an has many genetic myths about how humans are born, etc. The Qur’an 86:6-7 says that semen comes from between a man's backbone and ribs. We know today from biology studies that semen comes from the male genitalia, so once again, a very inaccurate statement coming from the Qur’an. “

“7… ‘Let now man think from what he is created - he is created from a drop, emitted from a space between the backbone and the ribs’.

Today we have come to know, the genital organs- the testes, in the males, and the ovaries in the female, in the Embryonic stage - they develop from a space, where the kidney is present today, between the backbone and the 11th and 12th rib. Later on the testes they descend to the inguinal canal, into the scrotum - and the ovaries in the female to the true pelvis.

But in the embryonic stage, it is in the space, which the Qur'an speaks about…‘between the backbone, the spinal column and the 11th and 12th rib’. Even in the adult life after the Genital organs they descend - yet they receive the blood supply - the nerve supply and the lymphatic drainage from the same space between the spinal column and the 11th and 12th rib

http://www.hmc.psu.edu/childrens/health ... hidism.htm (http://www.hmc.psu.edu/childrens/healthinfo/c/cryptorchidism.htm) “

Source: http://www.answering-christianity.com/b ... buttal.htm (http://www.answering-christianity.com/bassam_zawadi/islamsci_rebuttal.htm)

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"“Qur’an 2:261 tells us that every ear of corn has 100 grains. This has not been proven scientifically and is more than obviously false. It brings into question the scientific accuracy of the Qur’an and whether the Qur’an is really addressing scientific issues”

“The parable of those who spend their substance in the way of Allah is that of a grain of corn: it groweth seven ears, and each ear Hath a hundred grains. Allah giveth manifold increase to whom He pleaseth: And Allah careth for all and He knoweth all things.” (2:261)

Your source is taking this verse out of context.  

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"“Qur’an 27:18, tells the story of a talking ant in the time of King Solomon. Ants do not communicates with words, but with scent and smell, etc. This is a scientific error, regarding nature.”

“
A.   "At length, when they came to a (lowly) valley of ants, one of the ants said: "O ye ants, get into your habitations, lest Solomon and his hosts crush you (under foot) without knowing it," (27:18).
B.   "Till, when they reached the Valley of the Ants, an ant exclaimed: O ants! Enter your dwellings lest Solomon and his armies crush you, unperceiving," (27:18, Pickthal, trans.).

In verse 18, the Quran says
At length, when they came to a (lowly) valley of ants, one of the ants said: "O ye ants, get into your habitations, lest Solomon and his hosts crush you (under foot) without knowing it."

The Quran doesn’t say how the ant said it, but it just said that it said it. Somehow, the ant communicated to the other ants. …ants indeed do communicate.

The Quran does not say that the ant communicated by sound.

In verse 19, the Quran says
He smiled and laughed at her statement, and said, "My Lord, direct me to be appreciative of the blessings You have bestowed upon me and my parents, and to do the righteous works that please You. Admit me by Your mercy into the company of Your righteous servants."

The verse does not say that Solomon heard the statement; it basically shows that he understood the statement (not by speech) of the ant.
When the verses are closely examined, there are no scientific errors.”

Source: http://www.answering-christianity.com/b ... buttal.htm (http://www.answering-christianity.com/bassam_zawadi/islamsci_rebuttal.htm)

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"“Let's continue with your quoting from the Wikipedia definition of "postdiction."

 

Quote from: "Wikipedia"After the event has occurred, however, details are shoehorned into the prediction by the psychics or their supporters using selective thinking â€" emphasize the "hits", ignore the "misses" â€" in order to lend credence to the prophecy and give the impression of an accurate "prediction". Inaccurate predictions are simply not mentioned.

Wonderful, you haven’t posted any “misses”.

"formal education” in this matter?

Lawl I’m considered self trained ; )

Quote from: "risky"Does it disprove anything I've posted? Tell me that?

You cannot prove that the Quran has special forknowledge of advanced scientific principles any more than I can disprove it. Therefore I don't think proof is the most important element of our discussion. What I do feel is important is whether your claim is likely or not. In other words I'm not as interested in proof as I am in the likelihood that what you claim is true. Your claim is that the Quran contains forknowledge of advanced scientific acheivements.

To judge the likelihood of your claim, first I would ask what support can you demonstrate that proves the author of the Quran is on the same wave-length as you are. Would he have any concept of the things you have posted here? Since he lived so long ago I doubt you have any such support. This hurts the likelihood of your claim. It doesn't disprove it, but it does hurt the likelihood.

Supposing he did have the knowledge you say he did, then he would have had knowledge of orbits, fingerprints, oceanology, atoms, etc... So why wouldn't he have written it more explicitly, and in more detail? It's always been the pleasure of highly observant and scientifically productive men to explain every minute detail of their theories. The verses you have quoted here are merely quips taken out of context. This blatant lack of detail further hurts the liklihood of your claim.

Continuing to suppose the author of the Quran had the knowledge you propose, why wouldn't he or others have made use of it? Either to advance Muslim culture or of humanity as a whole? Since those studying the Quran should have had access to such superior divinely-revealed knowledge, it's a wonder Muslims weren't flying to the moon at the time of Crusades!

With this knowledge, it follows logically that Muslims should should have been been, and remained far more scientifically advanced than Western nations. I realize for a time the East was more advanced - but that changed dramatically during the Rennaissance. The West began to far outshine the world in scientific and industrial development. Again, the liklihood of your claim just doesn't hold up.

Remember, we'll never be able to prove eachother wrong. But we can evaluate information as likely or not by employing a bit of reason.  

Quote from: "risky"Your really attempting to grasp at air to make an 'argument' I mean it can't even be called an argument... lol..

You're right - to someone who believes in fantasy, it can't be called an argument. Until you let reason begin to influence your thoughts, I may as well be speaking to a wall.

Quote from: "myleviathan"

Quote from: "risky"Does it disprove anything I've posted? Tell me that?

You cannot prove that the Quran has special forknowledge of advanced scientific principles any more than I can disprove it. Therefore I don't think proof is the most important element of our discussion. What I do feel is important is whether your claim is likely or not. In other words I'm not as interested in proof as I am in the likelihood that what you claim is true. Your claim is that the Quran contains forknowledge of advanced scientific acheivements.

To judge the likelihood of your claim, first I would ask what support can you demonstrate that proves the author of the Quran is on the same wave-length as you are. Would he have any concept of the things you have posted here? Since he lived so long ago I doubt you have any such support. This hurts the likelihood of your claim. It doesn't disprove it, but it does hurt the likelihood.

Supposing he did have the knowledge you say he did, then he would have had knowledge of orbits, fingerprints, oceanology, atoms, etc... So why wouldn't he have written it more explicitly, and in more detail? It's always been the pleasure of highly observant and scientifically productive men to explain every minute detail of their theories. The verses you have quoted here are merely quips taken out of context. This blatant lack of detail further hurts the liklihood of your claim.

Continuing to suppose the author of the Quran had the knowledge you propose, why wouldn't he or others have made use of it? Either to advance Muslim culture or of humanity as a whole? Since those studying the Quran should have had access to such superior divinely-revealed knowledge, it's a wonder Muslims weren't flying to the moon at the time of Crusades!

With this knowledge, it follows logically that Muslims should should have been been, and remained far more scientifically advanced than Western nations. I realize for a time the East was more advanced - but that changed dramatically during the Rennaissance. The West began to far outshine the world in scientific and industrial development. Again, the liklihood of your claim just doesn't hold up.

Remember, we'll never be able to prove eachother wrong. But we can evaluate information as likely or not by employing a bit of reason.  

Quote from: "risky"Your really attempting to grasp at air to make an 'argument' I mean it can't even be called an argument... lol..

You're right - to someone who believes in fantasy, it can't be called an argument. Until you let reason begin to influence your thoughts, I may as well be speaking to a wall.

What does everyone think about whats stated?

What do you think about it? What would you say to what he's written (In your own shoes or in mine)?

*~Sharing Thoughts?

Well, I've read this entire thread, including all of your arguments, Risky.  And you really want to know what I think?  You asked for it.

I think that, like any religious text, you can read the Quran to say anything you want it to say.  So basically I think that, like the Bible, it's full of metaphors, fables, flat out untruths and inconsistencies.  You can say anything you want to say about what you believe certain verses to say.  But until you are able or willing to look at those verses with anything approximating reason or critical thinking, you're just blowing smoke.

You will never convince any of us that there is any kind of scientific truth or prediction whatsoever in this or any other religious text.  If you were able to quote verses that said something like "at the beginning of the 21st century scientists and believers will argue over the moral implications of stem cell research," you'd have much more of an argument.  But quoting verses about talking ants or how many legs all the critters have (while omitting most of the critters on earth which have more than four legs) just makes you look gullible, credulous, and uneducated.

I appreciate the effort you've gone to to try to present your argument convincingly.  But frankly, like so many other people on this board and others, merely quoting these verses and attaching your own personal interpretation doesn't hold water.  If you are hoping someone will read them and all of a sudden think, "Wow, that's amazing!  How come I never saw it that way before?  There really is a God, or Allah," it ain't gonna happen.  We like proof, not mysticism.  I realize you can't prove it any more than I can disprove it.  But there is proof that ants don't talk (I'm not talking communication by scent, but talking as told in the Quran), which just makes the Quran less likely to have any grain of truth in it.  There is proof that semen comes from male genitals, not somewhere in the back by the kidneys, regardless of the spin you put on that dubious description.

Good try, though.  Better luck next time.

Risky?  Oh, Risky!  Here Risky Risky Risky!  Where'd you go?

Was it something I said?  

Quote from: "Faithless"Risky?  Oh, Risky!  Here Risky Risky Risky!  Where'd you go?

Was it something I said?  

Don't get too excited. Risky is very good at using creative rhetoric to give the appearance of beating your arguments. It's rather disappointing.

Quote from: "Faithless"But quoting verses about talking ants or how many legs all the critters have (while omitting most of the critters on earth which have more than four legs) just makes you look gullible, credulous, and uneducated.

You see, you fail to comprehend the difference of what i was putting forth as science that could not have been known and what i was refuting as to what some claimed to be contradictory to science.

Quote from: "Faithless"But there is proof that ants don't talk (I'm not talking communication by scent, but talking as told in the Quran), which just makes the Quran less likely to have any grain of truth in it.

-Look to what i posted above for help on your misconception.

Quote from: "Faithless"There is proof that semen comes from male genitals, not somewhere in the back by the kidneys, regardless of the spin you put on that dubious description.

It was a dubious refutation that i provided and i apologize; So let me go about clarifying/shedding some more light.

"He is created from a drop emitted-Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs:" 86: 6-7.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/086.qmt.html (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/086.qmt.html)

"It says simply that man is created from the liquid that is ejaculated.  During coitus that liquid springs from the abdomen (“between the ribcage and the spine”).  That is a scientific fact!

1400 years ago, even doctors thought semen springs from the testicles during coitus.  They were wrong of course!  Recent discoveries have proven them wrong!

Semen is stored in vesicles that lie in the abdomen.  From there it is ejaculated during coitus.  Lay people still think that the ejaculate comes from the testicles.

The Quran does not say where semen is produced.  Just where it comes from during coitus!

In fact, if the Quran had said that the semen is produced in the abdomen, (“between the ribcage and the spine”), and not the testicles, it would still be accurate.  At least 95 to 98% accurate!  Only 2-5% of the semen is contributed by the testicles.  The rest is produced in the glands located in the pelvic cavity.

But the Quran does not say where the semen is produced, because the Quran is not 98% accurate.  It is 100% ACCURATE!"
http://www.answering-christianity.com/m ... buttal.htm (http://www.answering-christianity.com/munir_munshey/semenproduction_rebuttal.htm)

This site goes in-depth on explanation of the production.. and basically reaffirms what is stated: http://www.fertility.com/international/ ... uction.jsp (http://www.fertility.com/international/concern/Understanding_Fertility/Sperm_Production.jsp)

@myleviathan The Author? = God? Muhammed only received the revelations. So he did not know anything else except that which was revealed to him. (In relation to the Quran). How else could anything that is stated in the Qur'an be there? (As to what I've posted about science etc.) Now you claim that since he (Muhammed) had 'all the knowledge'... why weren't they flying in space etc? Ask yourself how did he 'figure'/'find' these things out? (If it was him as you say)

If you want your argument to gain any leverage at all please prove to me, that what I've stated could have been discovered 1,400 years ago with the technology they had, show me some evidence that it was plausible/possible for those things to be discovered way back when with their technology & hook me up with what technology; then I will wonder why they were not flying in space by the crusades.

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"Don't get too excited. Risky is very good at using creative rhetoric to give the appearance of beating your arguments. It's rather disappointing.

I think I've answered all the questions you've posed head on, I do not think I have ducked under the table when providing refutations; [If you'd point me to where I have according to your reasoning & explain how it is; I'll try and clarify/explain more so if it is possible.]

Quote from: "Faithless"Risky?  Oh, Risky!  Here Risky Risky Risky!  Where'd you go?

Was it something I said?  

Let's keep this adult please. Thanks.

Thank you risky for having the courage to come and post here. I am an ex-Muslim myself and I have read the Koran several times. I still listen to the beautiful recitation by Mustafa Ismail. Although I know it is all man-made and full of lies, I found the recitation quite appealing. It is like listening to an opera. It sounds great. The Koran is not a bad piece of work, really, if you don't take it seriously.

As for my view of the contents of the Koran, I think it could fall into the following five categories:
1. Borrowed stories from Jewish mythology. These are highly entertaining and I think could be considered at par with any harry Potter volume. This includes the man who lived to be 900 or so years, talking birds and talking ants.
2. Arguments for the validity of the text, sometimes desperate and mostly combined with threats. (Wouldn't have been much easier if God talks to me directly and spare us all that).
3. Shallow observations about the natural world. This includes what you call scientific facts in the Koran. While many of the observations seem correct, they all remain quite shallow with no added value whatsoever.
4. Lies. With some simple analysis you can tell the motive behind most of the lies.
5. A limited code of ethics, some of which is considered repulsive by today’s moral standards.

Quote from: "D_Advocate"Thank you risky for having the courage to come and post here. I am an ex-Muslim myself and I have read the Koran several times. I still listen to the beautiful recitation by Mustafa Ismail. Although I know it is all man-made and full of lies, I found the recitation quite appealing. It is like listening to an opera. It sounds great. The Koran is not a bad piece of work, really, if you don't take it seriously.

As for my view of the contents of the Koran, I think it could fall into the following five categories:
1. Borrowed stories from Jewish mythology. These are highly entertaining and I think could be considered at par with any harry Potter volume. This includes the man who lived to be 900 or so years, talking birds and talking ants.
2. Arguments for the validity of the text, sometimes desperate and mostly combined with threats. (Wouldn't have been much easier if God talks to me directly and spare us all that).
3. Shallow observations about the natural world. This includes what you call scientific facts in the Koran. While many of the observations seem correct, they all remain quite shallow with no added value whatsoever.
4. Lies. With some simple analysis you can tell the motive behind most of the lies.
5. A limited code of ethics, some of which is considered repulsive by today’s moral standards.

D_Advocate - good post. It's nice to have your perspective.

My only disagreement is that I like Harry Potter better than Jewish mythology...  

Thank you myleviathan.

Harry Potter is cool  

Quote from: "D_Advocate"Thank you myleviathan.

Harry Potter is cool  :D  That mythology is every bit as valid as the others.

Quote from: "myleviathan"

Quote from: "D_Advocate"Thank you myleviathan.

Harry Potter is cool  :D  That mythology is every bit as valid as the others.

Give it two thousand years.

Quote from: "D_Advocate"1. Borrowed stories from Jewish mythology. These are highly entertaining and I think could be considered at par with any harry Potter volume. This includes the man who lived to be 900 or so years, talking birds and talking ants.

-Borrowed stories from Jewish mythology? Really? Please enlighten me. Show me the comparisons I'm up for a read.

-The man who lived to be 900 years old? Really thats in the Quran? Could you provide a reference from the Quran supporting that?  Good luck, you'll need it.

- I've already refuted 'talking ants' using the Quran. Perhaps you didn't read it, refer to page 5. As for talking birds, please direct me to the verse.

Quote from: "D_Advocate"2. Arguments for the validity of the text, sometimes desperate and mostly combined with threats.

Really, "mostly combined with threats"? Interesting, Truly.

Quote from: "D_Advocate"3. Shallow observations about the natural world. This includes what you call scientific facts in the Koran. While many of the observations seem correct, they all remain quite shallow with no added value whatsoever.

Thanks for your opinion.

Quote from: "D_Advocate"4. Lies. With some simple analysis you can tell the motive behind most of the lies.

Again like the Jewish mythology, Please enlighten me.

Quote from: "D_Advocate"5. A limited code of ethics, some of which is considered repulsive by today’s moral standards.

"limited"? How so?

Since it looks like I won't be getting any responses. I'll just move on. (College sucks btw : )

SEX DETERMINATION

The sex of a fetus is determined by the nature of the sperm and not the ovum. The sex of the child, whether female or male, depends on whether the 23rd
pair of chromosomes is XX or XY respectively. Primarily sex determination occurs at fertilization and depends upon the type of sex chromosome in the sperm that fertilizes an ovum. If it is an ‘X’ bearing sperm that fertilizes the ovum, the fetus is a female and if it is a ‘Y’ bearing sperm then the fetus is a male. “That He did create In pairs â€" male and female, From a seed when lodged (In its place).” [Al-Qur’aan 53:45-46]

The Arabic word nutfah means a minute quantity of liquid and tumnâ means ejaculated or planted. Therefore nutfah specifically refers to sperm because it is ejaculated. The Qur’aan says: “Was he not a drop of sperm emitted (In lowly form)? “Then did he become A clinging clot; Then did (Allah) make And fashion (him) In due proportion. “And of him He made Two sexes, male And female.” [Al-Qur’aan 75:37-39]  

Here again it is mentioned that a small quantity (drop) of sperm (indicated by the word nutfatan min maniyyin) which comes from the man is responsible for the sex of the fetus.

Source: http://www.sunnahonline.com/ilm/quran/qms.pdf (http://www.sunnahonline.com/ilm/quran/qms.pdf)
*~Notice I added the Underlining and Bolding that was not originally in the text.

Or, it could be just simple observation that when a man ejaculates into the woman, she produces a child which is either a boy or a girl which both come from the same place.  I am skeptical of this being extrapolated to knowledge of genetics in the 6th century.

Quote from: "Squid"Or, it could be just simple observation that when a man ejaculates into the woman, she produces a child which is either a boy or a girl which both come from the same place.

Fortunately, she produces the brat about 9 months AFTER you do the PG16 stuff. Givesya time to pack the bags and head for Mexico  :beer:

Quote from: "Squid"Or, it could be just simple observation that when a man ejaculates into the woman, she produces a child which is either a boy or a girl which both come from the same place.  I am skeptical of this being extrapolated to knowledge of genetics in the 6th century.

Interesting that, that is contrary to the beliefs that were most probably held back then.

"Until the biological facts were discovered, women were always considered responsible for the gender of their children. Attitudes are changing as people become better informed. However women are still blamed..." (Pg 170)

Source: "Culture, Religion and Childbearing in a Multiracial Society" By Judith Schott, Alix Henley

You can find the book online at: http://books.google.com/books?id=9s7Eho ... #PPA170,M1 (http://books.google.com/books?id=9s7Eho1PExEC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Culture,+Religion+and+Childbearing+in+a+Multiracial+Society&ei=vF_6SNvmJYuWyASUy6nmDA#PPA170,M1)

And are still held in some third world countries.

Quote from: "risky""Until the biological facts were discovered, women were always considered responsible for the gender of their children. Attitudes are changing as people become better informed. However women are still blamed..." (Pg 170)

Source: "Culture, Religion and Childbearing in a Multiracial Society" By Judith Schott, Alix Henley

Can't blame either parent for the sex of their offspring. But you sure CAN blame them both for an un-wanted pregnancy. There are condoms in so to say every store after all. Much less invasive than abortion AND they protect from STDs too.  

Quote from: "risky"

Quote from: "Squid"Or, it could be just simple observation that when a man ejaculates into the woman, she produces a child which is either a boy or a girl which both come from the same place.  I am skeptical of this being extrapolated to knowledge of genetics in the 6th century.

Interesting that, that is contrary to the beliefs that were most probably held back then.

"Until the biological facts were discovered, women were always considered responsible for the gender of their children. Attitudes are changing as people become better informed. However women are still blamed..." (Pg 170)

Source: "Culture, Religion and Childbearing in a Multiracial Society" By Judith Schott, Alix Henley

You can find the book online at: http://books.google.com/books?id=9s7Eho ... #PPA170,M1 (http://books.google.com/books?id=9s7Eho1PExEC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Culture,+Religion+and+Childbearing+in+a+Multiracial+Society&ei=vF_6SNvmJYuWyASUy6nmDA#PPA170,M1)

And are still held in some third world countries.

Not quite the point I was making.

Quote from: "Squid"Not quite the point I was making.

I completely understand the point you were making, hence my response ; )