Hi everyone. Hope life is treating you well, nice weather where I live.
I came across the first two articles linked below on church attendance in the UK and I was surprised to read the news. I read in the articles that church attendance is increasing in the UK and church's are seeing resurgence and especially was so around Easter with church's being full to bursting. I was surprised to see the information because for much of my life I have heard that church going is going down in the UK. The clear information is though is that church going among young people especially Generation X the 18-24 age group and men are increasing.
Just a few years ago I read that Church's were in decline in Europe too and resurging in other lower developed countries like Africa and Latin America. Resurging areas in particular were church's that were Catholic Charismatic and around the Gifts of the Holy Spirit.
I read these articles and found them interesting. I read to further analytical research for me the third and fourth article and I saw that church attendance varies in different age groups. Areas of growth particularly seem to be around young people aged 18-24 joining the church for the very first time. Interesting.
Much of the world has seen calamity and tribulation in the world in the last few years and it does make some people question what exactly is going on in the world. I know I have at times myself questioned what exactly is going on.
Are some people now returning to the church? It seems it.
New people seem to be returning to God now in time of great distress. People seem to be wanting more to life and deepening a sense of spirituality and faith.
Revivals for church going is happening what was for secular countries like France baptisms are increasing.
This is not what Samuel Huntingdon predicted in the Clash of Civilisations.
More people are wanting to learn more about God the creator and have deepened spirituality. The last few years for many may be this might have something to do with it. It can be hard to find and see a future and everything can be expensive and seem overwhelming at times. They seem to need a God to take care on their needs and advocate for them through their promised comforter that Jesus promised them.
What do you think of this resurgence? I studied religion and am a social social scientist and this resurgence is very interesting.
There are a number of articles, but the evidence seems that it cannot be argued against.
https://www.premierchristianity.com/opinion/christianity-is-back-heres-the-data/19549.article
https://www.churchtimes.co.uk/articles/2025/11-april/news/uk/dramatic-growth-in-young-people-attending-church-bible-society-research-finds
https://premierchristian.news/en/news/article/quiet-revival-uk-bible-society
https://www.premierchristianity.com/renewal/many-churches-are-reporting-record-breaking-easter-attendance-heres-the-best-stories/19373.article
https://www.premierchristianity.com/opinion/revival-is-coming-but-is-the-church-ready/18948.article
https://www.premierchristianity.com/real-life/more-men-are-finding-jesus-my-church-is-full-of-them/19559.article
https://www.premierchristianity.com/opinion/weve-never-seen-spiritual-hunger-like-this-before-revival-is-here-here-are-4-ways-you-can-steward-it/19457.article
https://www.premierchristianity.com/opinion/3-reasons-why-were-confident-a-quiet-revival-is-taking-place/19427.article
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/us/news/2025/01/04/the-young-men-leaving-traditional-churches-for-orthodox/
https://apnews.com/article/orthodox-christians-cliffside-monastery-monks-488a9ec2bea52f54071bf91ddfc7d56d
Quote from: GreenBlaze on June 21, 2025, 02:31:53 PMHi everyone. Hope life is treating you well, nice weather where I live.
Good to hear.
As for the rest of your post, what is your point?
Quote from: Recusant on June 21, 2025, 02:54:41 PMQuote from: GreenBlaze on June 21, 2025, 02:31:53 PMHi everyone. Hope life is treating you well, nice weather where I live.
Good to hear.
As for the rest of your post, what is your point?
I was wanted your thoughts and a discussion on why you think this is happening and do you believe it is actually happening or something else?
It would not surprise me if the reports of rising church attendance among younger folk are accurate. It's not as if the human species has magically become less gullible. I think things do look a bit more precarious than several years ago, at least to inhabitants of wealthier nations that had previously felt more insulated from turmoil and grief on a wide scale. When the world seems less safe, people tend to seek whatever comfort and reassurance they can find, however threadbare.
Quote from: Recusant on June 21, 2025, 10:17:56 PMIt would not surprise me if the reports of rising church attendance among younger folk are accurate. It's not as if the human species has magically become less gullible. I think things do look a bit more precarious than several years ago, at least to inhabitants of wealthier nations that had previously felt more insulated from turmoil and grief on a wide scale. When the world seems less safe, people tend to seek whatever comfort and reassurance they can find, however threadbare.
Thank you for your thoughts, they are interesting.
I would agree there does seem to be something going here especially with young people, the world has been very unstable for some time and there has been some high profile of late too who have converted in the media like the co founder of wikipedia.
I look with interest to at the Pew research which needs to be updated as it only goes back to 2010-2020 and misses critically out the period post COVID and war/economy effect.
Quote from: GreenBlaze on June 22, 2025, 04:32:48 AMThank you for your thoughts, they are interesting.
I would agree there does seem to be something going here especially with young people, the world has been very unstable for some time and there has been some high profile of late too who have converted in the media like the co founder of wikipedia.
I look with interest to at the Pew research which needs to be updated as it only goes back to 2010-2020 and misses critically out the period post COVID and war/economy effect.
Indeed COVID and its disruption of people's lives (particularly youngsters) had an undeniable effect on society. It's been cited as a big part of the reason so many of the younger cohort of "Gen Z" have tended more toward a conservative political stance, for instance. Religious belief is loosely associated with a conservative outlook. Also, I expect the opportunity for engaging in a community is a factor. The young people who were deprived of social life by the shutdowns may crave the sense of gathering they find in church.
I don't think it's all COVID though. Generally society moves in the manner of a pendulum. People's relation to religion will naturally ebb and flow; we're seeing that now apparently. I think religion often does more harm than good but I understand that many people find its pat answers to difficult questions expedient to getting on with their lives.
Looking for something greater than oneself to identify with and/or belong to is quite common - especially among the younger crowd.
Even I sometimes find myself doing activities which I know are a waste of my time because, for example, a friend would like to and it doesn't really cost me anything I'm unwilling to give.
That said, religions do tend to offer some hard answers. Whether or not said answers are of questionable quality is quite beside the point. People want it - especially in uncertain or volatile periods and a priest can offer a lonely 20-something with a touch of environmental anxiety and misplaced guilt for some bullshit something people like my own sweet self can't - for it all to "mean something" in a remotely satisfying way, at least to a mind prone to needing that kind of meaning.
https://www.timothygough.co.uk/blog/is-church-attendance-really-rising-a-closer-look-at-the-quiet-revival
The churches do not educate people.
They sell promises instead, drawing in people with phoney ads.
An educated person will know that there was no such person as Jesus.
Jesus is not a Jewish name.
All jews believed they were the sons and daughters of god.
The bible is a basically a book of recycled mythology as seen from a Jewish perspective.
There are no original surviving manuscripts of books of the bible.
Christianity is redefined for every new generation.
In my youth it was all about the fear of god.
It is now all about the love of god.
At no point does the word love appear in the bible.
That's because it was not written in English.
A church near me displays a poster "Jesus Loves You Passionately."
Quite simply, more bums on seats means more money.
Church attendance is a social exercise as well as a religious one.
In my younger days I was a certified heathen who often went to church on Sunday. The reason for doing so was because there were girls there. Many of the girls went to church because there were boys and young men there. Church is a prime place to hook up. Can that be at least a partial reason for the resurgence of attendance by the younger set?
Hmm... Maybe less likely to immediately get cancelled on Twitter for violent verbal rape or some such for having said that she had pretty eyes if you hooked up with a church-going gal...
There might be something to it.
So night clubs loss is churches gain?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/czed9321l37o
greenblaze did three hits. i imagine his work here is done.
I recall that back in the day certain Christian institutions assigned it as part of a class. "Go post on an atheist discussion board." Also an occasional undergraduate doing research. Though that was a long time ago in internet years, the self-identification as a social scientist resonated for me.
So I can't claim that I was particularly welcoming. Maybe the fact that initially I was the only one replying was less than inspiring.
:tumbleweed:
:sidesmile:
I've tilted against these knuckleheads in the past, but I'm just over it, these days.
Very interesting reading all your thoughts. I tried to get on earlier, but the website was down.
One story I was a bit unsure of, the young men going to church Orthodox ones for 5 hours during the COVID period-when most church's were shut and also if on, the service was as short as possible. I couldn't imagine a service an Orthodox one lasting for five hours with young men. I know some who are pentecostal can reach like 3 hours, but 5hrs. To me if they wish to go it is up to them-but the five hours service I never found one so long which was orthodox.
People as you have agreed are clearly searching for something during these difficult times and since I wrote this even there have been new strikes going on in the military. This is a hard time to be a young person no doubt.
Quote from: GreenBlaze on June 29, 2025, 01:22:38 AM...
People as you have agreed are clearly searching for something during these difficult times and since I wrote this even there have been new strikes going on in the military. This is a hard time to be a young person no doubt.
Religions have never made it a secret that they prey on the vulnerable as their main source of victims.
Quote from: GreenBlaze on June 29, 2025, 01:22:38 AMThis is a hard time to be a young person no doubt.
I agree. The pervasive doom peddling online does not help. Western kids today have more or less been born with a smart phone and grow up with TikToks and Snapchats and are connected to the outside world in a way unique to the past two generations - sometimes with very little "street smarts" in how to approach half-truths, propaganda, conspiracy theories, etc.
I say that because their parents suck at that too. For far too many people, if a legitimate-sounding talking head says something, they may believe it. If some other talking head takes that exact point from that exact source and repeats it, they get reinforced in their belief. And so a brand new bullshit train is born. That happens many times a day, unfortunately.
And so, many of them kids can be forgiven for thinking that the world is circling the drain and the sky is falling. In some very specific ways, that is true. However, that has
always been true. For instance, I see your COVID and raise you smallpox, poliomyelitis and plague - just to start with. I see your Middle East and raise you the Crusades. I see your hurricane <insert name> and raise you the fall of Pompeii. So forth. The difference is that today, even if it's not in your living room, the media and social networks will bring it there "by force." Far too many people, even - perhaps especially - the younger ones, don't know how to deal with it in a sustainable, mentally-healthy way.
There is a light at the end of the current tunnel. For those who only see Metallica's freight train coming their way, however, the divine may offer... An alternate reality, of sorts. Or a happy ending at its end. Or both.
So yeah... The skeptics among us do have quite a job to do still - and we "always" will.
https://www.christianpost.com/news/uk-churches-rebuked-for-hosting-rave-in-the-nave-events.html
"The decision to host such events has been met with protests and objections from various groups, including Catholics, Orthodox Christians, Evangelicals, Anglicans and even atheists and agnostics."
For me to go along they'd have to at least play a few Abba hits.
Quote from: zorkan on July 01, 2025, 11:36:48 AMhttps://www.christianpost.com/news/uk-churches-rebuked-for-hosting-rave-in-the-nave-events.html
"The decision to host such events has been met with protests and objections from various groups, including Catholics, Orthodox Christians, Evangelicals, Anglicans and even atheists and agnostics."
For me to go along they'd have to at least play a few Abba hits.
They didn't bother to explain what objection an atheist might have to this. Personally I don't see a problem.
Indeed. Oh, I'm certain that there are a few embittered Atheists out there, who would have objections "just" because a church does a thing. Personally, I'm not one of those.
In the right circumstances some atheists might find they are theists after all.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Anglicanism/comments/1amsytc/last_nights_rave_party_at_canterbury_cathedral_is/
I don't subscribe to the idea we are all born atheists, then we are brainwashed into theism until we gain control of our mind and then become atheists.
When I was born I knew nothing.
When I die I will know nothing.
I came out of the darkness and accept one day I will return there.
The universe works like that.
What made me an atheist were church posters which get away with lies because religion gets away with it.
"God saved me. I had cancer. I prayed. I got better!"
No mention of any accepted medical treatments that were taken.
"God (or Jesus) loves you!"
I don't like veiled threats.
Quote from: zorkan on July 02, 2025, 10:29:55 AMI don't subscribe to the idea we are all born atheists, then we are brainwashed into theism until we gain control of our mind and then become atheists.
You say that, and yet...
QuoteWhen I was born I knew nothing.
When I die I will know nothing.
Gnosticism/agnosticism pertain to knowledge; theism/atheism pertain to
belief in deities.
If you were born without such belief, you were born atheist. Whether or not you sit on the fence knowledge-wise (or even the possibility thereof) is a different answer to a different question.
It is largely a semantic argument though. People are not precisely born as blank slates, but they are born very little in terms of outside input processing in their "data warehouse." There is little to suggest that religion, therein its deities, is any more fundamental than those outside inputs to be processed, categorised and potentially result in complex behaviour.
QuoteI came out of the darkness and accept one day I will return there.
The universe works like that.
:smilenod: I'd say
life works like that, but from what we know of the Universe, that too is largely accurate.
QuoteWhat made me an atheist were church posters which get away with lies because religion gets away with it.
"God saved me. I had cancer. I prayed. I got better!"
No mention of any accepted medical treatments that were taken.
They often do have a correlation-causation problem. B came after A, therefore A must have caused or at least affected B. And so one day it rains buckets after the village shaman was seen prancing around his hut while shroomed out of his mind aaand just like that, a ritual is born. (There is a bit more to it, but it does hold as a first degree approximation)
Quote"God (or Jesus) loves you!"
I don't like veiled threats.
Yeah, I got a bit of that over the years. So some dude of questionable cosmic origin has feelings for me. And..? So..? OK..? Yes..? What?! If
you happen to love me, that's a you problem. I am under no social, moral or other obligation of any kind to reciprocate that love.
So yeah. Sorry, Jesus, it's just not going to go anywhere.
What are your answers to these questions, please.
What supporting evidence do we have for any event mentioned in the bible?
Who were the gospel writers?
Did any of them ever meet "Jesus"?
Why were the Dead Sea Scrolls quietly forgotten?
If god is love then why does he send souls to the lake of fire?
How old is the first surviving biblical manuscript?
If the bible is replete with contradictions, then which ones are we supposed to trust?
Why are we expected to rely on faith?
Quote from: zorkan on July 04, 2025, 11:34:17 AMWhat are your answers to these questions, please.
What supporting evidence do we have for any event mentioned in the bible?
Who were the gospel writers?
Did any of them ever meet "Jesus"?
Why were the Dead Sea Scrolls quietly forgotten?
If god is love then why does he send souls to the lake of fire?
How old is the first surviving biblical manuscript?
If the bible is replete with contradictions, then which ones are we supposed to trust?
Why are we expected to rely on faith?
Hi Zorkan
I will bite and I have seen a post from you where you wrote you are a lapsed Catholic so it might not be that hard as you are not fresh at this and have some understanding. I don't know all of the answers though.
My take-
1. From my understanding they still have things in Jerusalem historical wise from the time of Christ and oral tradition as well. In Bible's I have read there are pictures of where the Last Supper occurred in modern day Jerusalem. There are also artefacts like the Turin Shroud.
2. A lot of Gospel Jesus were Jesus' disciples, but the New Testatment itself featured inspired writing under inspiration of the Holy Spirit by other writers like Paul who was a founder of the early Christian church. Also it featured other work by writers like Timothy who were a friend of Paul who were a preacher.
3. Yes some of them and Paul met Jesus and has many books written in the New Testament.
4..From a trusted source-These scrolls were found in caves south of Jericho in the Dead Sea are and containing Bibiical and inter-testatmental materials. There are two scrolls Isaiah, one being complete, most of the first two chapters of Habakkuk, and fragments and of all of the Old Testament books with the exception of Esther. These findings by archeology contribute to our possessions of some of the oldest tests of the Old Testament. to our understanding of inter-testamental times, and to a better understanding of Hebrew and Aramaic. The Bible is made of more than Scrolls so we cannot use them alone. Christians use the New Testament as Christians which Jesus brought a new era and spirit of truth.
5. I think in life we get paths and if you believe in that faith then if you don't believe in God and accept his son as the salvation and follows his teachings and do evil, then that is what happens for that faith. I read there will be different versions like levels of hell not in the Bible. There may be a pit of hell for demons and also perhaps a place of limbo for those who never quite made it, but were generally good people but had no faith and it won't be hell as such, such absence of God.
To me, hell is just like eternal shouting and blaspheming and carnal behaviour all the time pretty much.
Last question faith-you cannot just rely on faith as a Christian, you need to be baptised into the body of Jesus for remission of sins and faith is essential as well and so is love and obedience to God.
Greenblaze, you are holding up the bible as an authority. Which one ? You have many choices. Chronologically here are some of your options.
The Hebrew bible of about 800 BC, the Septuagint of about 250 BC, New Testament 50 to 150 AD, old Latin translations, then the Latin Vulgate, then the Alcuin, the Paris bible, the Wycliffe, the Gutenberg, The Erasmus translation, The Luther bible, The Tyndale translation, The Coverdale Bible, The Mathew bible, the Geneva bible, Bishops bible, Douai-Rheims bible, Whew! we are finally at 1611 with the King James Bible written by a committee of 54 scholars.
Did King James scholars all agree with one another? Did James have any say in the matter?
You are aware that the writings were interpreted, by scribes using quill pens on papyrus or animal skins. Is it reasonable to imagine that some of the scribes made a mistake in translation or that some of them might have modified the text in ways that they thought appropriate?
Greenblaze, I respect your dedication to your beliefs as do some of my more generous fellow HAF members. I beseech thee to respect our skepticism. If you must attempt to sell your religion, then you will be more successful when addressing a less learned segment of society.
Go in Peace
Icarus
I like science fiction, but I draw the line on the religious sort and simply ignore it.
Quote from: Icarus on July 28, 2025, 12:57:18 AMGreenblaze, you are holding up the bible as an authority. Which one ? You have many choices. Chronologically here are some of your options.
The Hebrew bible of about 800 BC, the Septuagint of about 250 BC, New Testament 50 to 150 AD, old Latin translations, then the Latin Vulgate, then the Alcuin, the Paris bible, the Wycliffe, the Gutenberg, The Erasmus translation, The Luther bible, The Tyndale translation, The Coverdale Bible, The Mathew bible, the Geneva bible, Bishops bible, Douai-Rheims bible, Whew! we are finally at 1611 with the King James Bible written by a committee of 54 scholars.
Did King James scholars all agree with one another? Did James have any say in the matter?
You are aware that the writings were interpreted, by scribes using quill pens on papyrus or animal skins. Is it reasonable to imagine that some of the scribes made a mistake in translation or that some of them might have modified the text in ways that they thought appropriate?
Greenblaze, I respect your dedication to your beliefs as do some of my more generous fellow HAF members. I beseech thee to respect our skepticism. If you must attempt to sell your religion, then you will be more successful when addressing a less learned segment of society.
Go in Peace
Icarus
Icarus
I didn't actually mention my beliefs at all in this thread to let everyone speak freely about the research and their own views. Myself, I have studied religious studies and several religions of the world and also I am a social scientist by heart and like reading about the sociology of religion. So this revival in Christianity and in what most faiths are doing interests me. I think generally where it may be hard to obtain up to date information people deserve a right to just up to date information which is factual so all views they have can be properly and fully considered.
I am though a Christian, but didn't come here at all to convince anyone otherwise at all based on my thoughts and discussion on that.
I think I mentioned more than the Bible as a source-I mentioned oral tradition as well which is oral communication passed down.
The Old Testament if you were Judaic you relied on other sources too like the Talmud as well. I also mentioned about historical religious buildings still being in view today like where the Last Supper took place which is called the Upper room which is called the Cenacle often as well. There is a nativity grotto in Bethlehem that still stands to as well where Jesus was born. The Calvary exists to where Jesus was crucified. I like to see old relics like this, I have autism as well and I like to see objects and things like this.
I use the KJV Bible from the 1970s I searched ebay for a copy. It is so helpful with the breakdown of everything and full descriptions with information you cannot get today. I think I will ponder and consider these more your questions I didn't feel right to answer not knowing enough about all of them.
My views are quite spiritual and not so historical, so I am not the best person for answers about Jewish biblical history. My faith I do trust the Bible and I didn't imagine to bring this up here, but now it is come up and I didn't come to convince anyone of anything and respect your views to be an atheist, people have to choose for themselves and you cannot force anything on anyone. I have seen miracles and had healing from God and have spiritual gifts from him to which helps strengthen my faith and I have observed miracles and mysteries in the church. I have got a blog and it is one of my hobbies and I was never going to share it here, but I believe in being frank and open when you need to and you felt my beliefs. I will share with everyone my blog and my own written story and a post on the supernatural and my faith which is meant to be light hearted. I came and told you all some up to date news and I do not speak very much in the real world. I wish you all well.
Me and my faith
https://www.racheltestimony.com/2022/09/my-testimony-of-gods-grace.html
A little spin on Supernatural and my faith, I don't know if any of you remember Alex Mack etc and I enjoyed them to and the Darkest Minds as well. Also where science goes I have a post on that to I will link as it mentioned about science. Remember we all make our minds up freely about anything as adults and especially with a faith.
https://www.racheltestimony.com/2025/07/just-having-fun-with-alex-mack-kid-spin.html
One post on healing
https://www.racheltestimony.com/2025/04/brain-healing-from-god.html
Creationism/Big Bang Theory-
https://www.racheltestimony.com/2025/06/holding-onto-god-creator.html
QuoteI use the KJV Bible from the 1970s I searched ebay for a copy. It is so helpful with the breakdown of everything and full descriptions with information you cannot get today. I think I will ponder and consider these more your questions I didn't feel right to answer not knowing enough about all of them.
from the 1970s, greenblaze? please correct me if im wrong, but if thats your KJV, then be aware that what you are looking at is very different from the original 1611. in letterpress printing, the assembled forms are set into individual galleys, which are the actual images to be printed, 8 pages at a time on a single sheet. typos and corrections were made on the fly, and printing continued. as a result, no two original kjvs are the same as any other, with all the implications of that. what we use today is typically a later reprint of a best-guess 1611 kjv assembled in 1769, heavily edited and with massive deletions, including the prefaces to the readers, and all the cross references. just sayin, because thats only the typo step-- the kjv has suffered from many mutilations, deletions, and additions ever since.
if you want a real kjv, which includes the astronomical tables, the apocrypha, the editorial instructions from the translators, and most importantly-- the actual, original cross references between verses-- you will need to get a more specialized book.
they are available in facsimile form. mine is no longer in print, but amazon sells them,. here is one
https://www.amazon.com/Holy-Bible-King-James-Version/dp/1565638085/ref=sr_1_3?crid=3AAVFL0ZLZPMF&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.DZdVVV1YJrdXikrWomYcDvTPktJ6rTUTBiYaEB_QmjWqMc6hBH41pcz432Fv0WnA-Lw-CA-k8kRqrwfGZmGnePXsA01pfO4ic1PiY72JPhdvFlyvd4BtuzhQjbmbjOgyEGdrhXLMuSIyQarmnEih076LXqBWZP_fELBPXZtWAgnY7yZPxELQmfFT4U4Zf2TJk7cMBqL95d4YzroacnLw8T8ua0Z-Dk1chyKPfAsd_1bfHRzVm-MgIOhMvXTCXLpOHSt4nGNSvSlexOXEEQE1YYNSs5rb6xr8u-z4Ummc6Dk.xH_p5rlgLUSRt7HmxNoGOb4C6_1ODVyCWqnrNE6hrAw&dib_tag=se&keywords=1611+bible&qid=1753721447&sprefix=1611+bibl%2Caps%2C861&sr=8-3
We have a variety of "good books" that causes me to wonder. They are all held to be the true word of God. Among the titles that cause me some puzzlement are the ones that use the word; Revised or the word; New.
CEV; contemporary English Version
GNB; Good News Bible
KJV; probably the most popular here in the US
NIV;New International Version
NAB; New American Bible
REV; Revised English Bible
RSV; Revised Standard Version
Toss in some of the European texts and you discover ......VT; Vetas Testamentum., ZAW;Zeitschriftfur die altestamentlischewissenschaft, ZDMG, and ZBVp both with other complicated German descriptions. There are plenty more to choose from.
Which of them shall I accept as authentic or obey the details of the things he commands me to do as well as commanding several things or thoughts that I am forbidden to do or think.
What about the Koran, The teachings of Buddha, Lao Tze, Confucius, and all those other purveyors of wisdom and piety?
My head hurts when I try to sort all that stuff out. Grand Solution that works for me is to dismiss all of it as mere wishful thinking.
Quote from: billy rubin on July 28, 2025, 05:52:59 PMQuoteI use the KJV Bible from the 1970s I searched ebay for a copy. It is so helpful with the breakdown of everything and full descriptions with information you cannot get today. I think I will ponder and consider these more your questions I didn't feel right to answer not knowing enough about all of them.
from the 1970s, greenblaze? please correct me if im wrong, but if thats your KJV, then be aware that what you are looking at is very different from the original 1611. in letterpress printing, the assembled forms are set into individual galleys, which are the actual images to be printed, 8 pages at a time on a single sheet. typos and corrections were made on the fly, and printing continued. as a result, no two original kjvs are the same as any other, with all the implications of that. what we use today is typically a later reprint of a best-guess 1611 kjv assembled in 1769, heavily edited and with massive deletions, including the prefaces to the readers, and all the cross references. just sayin, because thats only the typo step-- the kjv has suffered from many mutilations, deletions, and additions ever since.
if you want a real kjv, which includes the astronomical tables, the apocrypha, the editorial instructions from the translators, and most importantly-- the actual, original cross references between verses-- you will need to get a more specialized book.
they are available in facsimile form. mine is no longer in print, but amazon sells them,. here is one
https://www.amazon.com/Holy-Bible-King-James-Version/dp/1565638085/ref=sr_1_3?crid=3AAVFL0ZLZPMF&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.DZdVVV1YJrdXikrWomYcDvTPktJ6rTUTBiYaEB_QmjWqMc6hBH41pcz432Fv0WnA-Lw-CA-k8kRqrwfGZmGnePXsA01pfO4ic1PiY72JPhdvFlyvd4BtuzhQjbmbjOgyEGdrhXLMuSIyQarmnEih076LXqBWZP_fELBPXZtWAgnY7yZPxELQmfFT4U4Zf2TJk7cMBqL95d4YzroacnLw8T8ua0Z-Dk1chyKPfAsd_1bfHRzVm-MgIOhMvXTCXLpOHSt4nGNSvSlexOXEEQE1YYNSs5rb6xr8u-z4Ummc6Dk.xH_p5rlgLUSRt7HmxNoGOb4C6_1ODVyCWqnrNE6hrAw&dib_tag=se&keywords=1611+bible&qid=1753721447&sprefix=1611+bibl%2Caps%2C861&sr=8-3
Thank you billy rubin, i'll take a look at that and see also If I can see it online first and see how much the words differ. I haven't actually quoted any scripture in this post from the Bible. I do have other versions which are newer at home like the Good News and earlier versions of KJV but I like mine as well from childhood and all the pictures and general information contained detailed explanations of things like the Sea Scrolls and the Holy Spirit which in modern day Bible's you cannot find. Thank you for pointing that out though.
This is the Bible I own and you see what it is like from these pictures-Link (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/236225737933?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D1110006%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D290046%2C289022%26meid%3D21829f3dbf57435f854eca6dfde4c76c%26pid%3D101875%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D116691427118%26itm%3D236225737933%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2332490%26algv%3DSimVIDwebV3WithCPCExpansionEmbeddingSearchQuerySemanticBroadMatchSingularityRecallReplaceKnnV4WithVectorDbNsOptHotPlRecallCIICentroidCoviewCPCAuto&_trksid=p2332490.c101875.m1851&itmprp=cksum%3A23622573793321829f3dbf57435f854eca6dfde4c76c%7Cenc%3AAQAKAAABcG96wQ16jds4VFcrhy1F3d4mbwZUJI9Fs%252BgdXYAHIzlX2e3YaNh7x%252BEnKA3G%252BCqSl1Xn4McfcWFK1GytmS2qxJ87mtE8Gm3iR1Ja4WBwh0hNHJrJx3Ki5mp04ow4CO7lP%252BooCybZDDU%252BbbSwmg7CbTin%252BBzBzbCYVnbjvyQAHu6--HI4MB7SvJl5IJqlyvomgoLMlgT6qAJzX0SANJhty2e2zWo%252F3Trp9cxxK1ouNr2bGIphV8Cg1wgwRaIwCTquQCrQ9lUx0r6F1XGjQDzYzHzgTJ2%252FVpWiF64uc4bDgjLJqne%252FTfpP1Bss%252ByBdAexFobdbNw9ov9S%252Fr9mSFovQCegRX%252BkCmqcOx0AlaOT5oji9KkK5UMXPtR%252BucpR79rbbC%252BHkm2KSr5uciiIXBo%252FmG7cZYj8aNLGseItJomsJUrq0ld2j7fH9LJ3QyOxd%252By5Eu79mdbc4OvZxwH4o1OQkeANIkxtFXNKzREF0pCTXWIVH%7Campid%3APL_CLK%7Cclp%3A2332490&itmmeta=01K1AG17F29RNVFTT134M7WXQ6)
Quote from: zorkan on July 04, 2025, 11:34:17 AMWhy are we expected to rely on faith?
I think this one should be looked at as a compound issue.
There are reasons to rely on faith. Such-like can save a family from breakup or earn you a fortune in crypto.
However, if your choices are faith or statistics, then statistically (see what a word-clever The Asmo did there? :D ) you would be better off going with the latter.
In that sense, relying on faith is a bit like playing the lottery. You do it for the feels and in hope of a preferable outcome.
Relying on reason... That you usually do either when a degree of certainty is required (as in, relevant
enough) or when you have a certain grasp on the variables involved in predicting an outcome. It also gets "easier" given enough people looking at the same issue, but then, that also seems true of more delusional behaviours.
There is, of course, overlap, which is more or less the default position. You may apply a little reason and a lot of faith to your model of something, or you can apply a lot of reason and a little faith - or something in-between. (I include "unconditional" trust in
faith for the purpose of this argument)
Join us in other subjects Greenblaze. Religion at this forum is, over long periods of time, one of our much less used departments. We have a lot more interest and participation in things like photography, sciences, music, politics, and and a variety of other subjects.
We do not need to be at odds just because you are a believer and we are skeptics. . Leave the bible in your favorite place at home, join in without that part of your persona.
Quote from: GreenBlaze on July 27, 2025, 08:05:53 PM1. From my understanding they still have things in Jerusalem historical wise from the time of Christ and oral tradition as well. In Bible's I have read there are pictures of where the Last Supper occurred in modern day Jerusalem. There are also artefacts like the Turin Shroud.
Eucharist is an ancient ritual much older than Xianity about bringing your god down to earth.
Turin Shroud likely to be be far more recent.
People believe only what they want to believe.
Quote2. A lot of Gospel Jesus were Jesus' disciples, but the New Testatment itself featured inspired writing under inspiration of the Holy Spirit by other writers like Paul who was a founder of the early Christian church. Also it featured other work by writers like Timothy who were a friend of Paul who were a preacher.
I don't believe in spooks, even holy ones.
No man was ever born other than by intercourse between a man and woman.
Quote3. Yes some of them and Paul met Jesus and has many books written in the New Testament.
Who was Paul other than a man who probably suffered hallucinations?
https://www.bartehrman.com/was-paul-a-disciple-or-apostle/#:~:text=Paul%20never%20met%20Jesus%20while,least%20not%20the%20earthly%20Jesus.
Quote4..From a trusted source-These scrolls were found in caves south of Jericho in the Dead Sea are and containing Bibiical and inter-testatmental materials. There are two scrolls Isaiah, one being complete, most of the first two chapters of Habakkuk, and fragments and of all of the Old Testament books with the exception of Esther. These findings by archeology contribute to our possessions of some of the oldest tests of the Old Testament. to our understanding of inter-testamental times, and to a better understanding of Hebrew and Aramaic. The Bible is made of more than Scrolls so we cannot use them alone. Christians use the New Testament as Christians which Jesus brought a new era and spirit of truth.
John Allegro was appointed to translate the Copper Scroll. The scrolls point to nothing.
Quote5. I think in life we get paths and if you believe in that faith then if you don't believe in God and accept his son as the salvation and follows his teachings and do evil, then that is what happens for that faith. I read there will be different versions like levels of hell not in the Bible. There may be a pit of hell for demons and also perhaps a place of limbo for those who never quite made it, but were generally good people but had no faith and it won't be hell as such, such absence of God.
To me, hell is just like eternal shouting and blaspheming and carnal behaviour all the time pretty much.
Last question faith-you cannot just rely on faith as a Christian, you need to be baptised into the body of Jesus for remission of sins and faith is essential as well and so is love and obedience to God.
My friend, please be aware you are on the wrong forum.
Go and tell that to a christian forum like the Worthy.
Quote from: Icarus on July 30, 2025, 04:42:05 AMJoin us in other subjects Greenblaze. Religion at this forum is, over long periods of time, one of our much less used departments. We have a lot more interest and participation in things like photography, sciences, music, politics, and and a variety of other subjects.
We do not need to be at odds just because you are a believer and we are skeptics. . Leave the bible in your favorite place at home, join in without that part of your persona.
Thank you, I will take a look around, I do have other interests as well, I like filming places of nature and making videos and so will check around the properly and may be some others can guide on those as well, nice to meet you all.
Quote from: zorkan on July 30, 2025, 12:00:46 PMQuote from: GreenBlaze on July 27, 2025, 08:05:53 PM1. From my understanding they still have things in Jerusalem historical wise from the time of Christ and oral tradition as well. In Bible's I have read there are pictures of where the Last Supper occurred in modern day Jerusalem. There are also artefacts like the Turin Shroud.
Eucharist is an ancient ritual much older than Xianity about bringing your god down to earth.
Turin Shroud likely to be be far more recent.
People believe only what they want to believe.
Quote2. A lot of Gospel Jesus were Jesus' disciples, but the New Testatment itself featured inspired writing under inspiration of the Holy Spirit by other writers like Paul who was a founder of the early Christian church. Also it featured other work by writers like Timothy who were a friend of Paul who were a preacher.
I don't believe in spooks, even holy ones.
No man was ever born other than by intercourse between a man and woman.
Quote3. Yes some of them and Paul met Jesus and has many books written in the New Testament.
Who was Paul other than a man who probably suffered hallucinations?
https://www.bartehrman.com/was-paul-a-disciple-or-apostle/#:~:text=Paul%20never%20met%20Jesus%20while,least%20not%20the%20earthly%20Jesus.
Quote4..From a trusted source-These scrolls were found in caves south of Jericho in the Dead Sea are and containing Bibiical and inter-testatmental materials. There are two scrolls Isaiah, one being complete, most of the first two chapters of Habakkuk, and fragments and of all of the Old Testament books with the exception of Esther. These findings by archeology contribute to our possessions of some of the oldest tests of the Old Testament. to our understanding of inter-testamental times, and to a better understanding of Hebrew and Aramaic. The Bible is made of more than Scrolls so we cannot use them alone. Christians use the New Testament as Christians which Jesus brought a new era and spirit of truth.
John Allegro was appointed to translate the Copper Scroll. The scrolls point to nothing.
Quote5. I think in life we get paths and if you believe in that faith then if you don't believe in God and accept his son as the salvation and follows his teachings and do evil, then that is what happens for that faith. I read there will be different versions like levels of hell not in the Bible. There may be a pit of hell for demons and also perhaps a place of limbo for those who never quite made it, but were generally good people but had no faith and it won't be hell as such, such absence of God.
To me, hell is just like eternal shouting and blaspheming and carnal behaviour all the time pretty much.
Last question faith-you cannot just rely on faith as a Christian, you need to be baptised into the body of Jesus for remission of sins and faith is essential as well and so is love and obedience to God.
My friend, please be aware you are on the wrong forum.
Go and tell that to a christian forum like the Worthy.
I am not sure if you know about the gift that Paul had-he didn't have a recorded severe mental condition-but an infirmity-a niggling issue to deal with and no greatness. His weakness was magnified to show God's strength according to Christianity. Paul had one of 8 Gifts of the Holy Spirit. Jesus said he would send his followers a comforter after he left the world and that came first and descended on his disciples on the Day of Pentecost that occurred in the Book of Acts. They then was given Gifts of the Holy Spirit which enbaled them further in their mission for the church and their faith. This enabled Paul to receive divine revelations from the Holy Spirit which is a 3rd attribute of God. These revelations could have through message or visions.
T am not sure what your views on regards the lake of fire, but as you mentioned it yourself I was just explaining what it was. I thought I pretty much gave you a definition of it. Peace
Quote from: GreenBlaze on July 31, 2025, 03:53:47 AM... They then was given Gifts of the Holy Spirit which enbaled them further in their mission for the church and their faith. This enabled Paul to receive divine revelations from the Holy Spirit which is a 3rd attribute of God. These revelations could have through message or visions.
T am not sure what your views on regards the lake of fire, but as you mentioned it yourself I was just explaining what it was. I thought I pretty much gave you a definition of it. Peace
Incomprehensible as this is to me, I'd just like to point out that any evidence for any event in the NT would be disastrous for the church because it would destroy faith.
Quote from: Icarus on July 30, 2025, 04:42:05 AMJoin us in other subjects Greenblaze. Religion at this forum is, over long periods of time, one of our much less used departments. We have a lot more interest and participation in things like photography, sciences, music, politics, and and a variety of other subjects.
and motorcycles!
Preaching the gospel. :???:
Quote from: zorkan on July 31, 2025, 12:31:09 PMQuote from: GreenBlaze on July 31, 2025, 03:53:47 AM... They then was given Gifts of the Holy Spirit which enbaled them further in their mission for the church and their faith. This enabled Paul to receive divine revelations from the Holy Spirit which is a 3rd attribute of God. These revelations could have through message or visions.
T am not sure what your views on regards the lake of fire, but as you mentioned it yourself I was just explaining what it was. I thought I pretty much gave you a definition of it. Peace
Incomprehensible as this is to me, I'd just like to point out that any evidence for any event in the NT would be disastrous for the church because it would destroy faith.
It doesn't have to destroy if they made anything scientific discoveries. In fact speaking in tongues and glossolalia there is some science on it and I think it great to read and it doesn't discount it at all for me and strengthens a case for it happening because of a creator as well.
I don't know which country you live in, but Justin Webly has this gift as well and has spoken about it in the media.
https://www.science.org/content/article/tongues-mind
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2451830120300170
the science on tongues just says that people are unhooking their frontal lobes while they do it. that makes sense, and is similar to voting republican.
^ :snicker1:
:this: :puppysnicker:
:rimshot:
That's the first study, but in my opinion the second is more interesting. They found that the practice of glossolalia results in more than average development in a couple of particular areas of the brain--associated with language control in a general sense. In other words it could be considered a skill, something that a non-practitioner might not easily accomplish on their first attempt.
I agree with GreenBlaze's opinion that neither of these findings are particularly incompatible with the assertion that holy babbling is inspired by the Holy Ghost. That's not saying much, which seems appropriate for the subject. I don't agree that it's evidence for a deity, of any sort.
It says here: Glossolalists claim that these tongues can be both real, unlearned languages (i.e., xenoglossia) as well as a "language of the spirit", a "heavenly language", or perhaps the language of angels.
Speaking in tongues - Wikipedia
Perhaps it's Enochian.
John Dee understood it through Edward Kelly..
https://brazen-head.org/2020/10/18/john-dee-and-edward-kelly-through-a-glass-darkly/
A real language with it's own grammar.
enochian? like the sons of god?
To communicate with angels you have to have a skryer (like Edward Kelly), a crystal ball, a table of symbols and the ability to speak in tongues (like Justin Welby).
An angel points to the symbols and the meaning is interpreted by an astrologer (like John Dee), who then gains favour with the ruling monarch (like Elizabeth I).
That's how royalty are directed by god.
All is explained here.
https://www.scribd.com/doc/48163733/Casaubon-A-True-and-Faithful-Relation
Quote from: zorkan on August 12, 2025, 01:10:58 PMTo communicate with angels you have to have a skryer (like Edward Kelly), a crystal ball, a table of symbols and the ability to speak in tongues (like Justin Welby).
An angel points to the symbols and the meaning is interpreted by an astrologer (like John Dee), who then gains favour with the ruling monarch (like Elizabeth I).
That's how royalty are directed by god.
All is explained here.
https://www.scribd.com/doc/48163733/Casaubon-A-True-and-Faithful-Relation
I don't know if you meant to be serious or not. I will say though that for the likes of Justin Webly who have the Holy Spirit it is not like this. I have seen people get messages from God's messengers/ angels in church and it is not like this. They will reveal to them a divine truth and it can be through vision and oral message. I used to work in this position at 17 and it was sent freely to me by God's messenger using the Holy Spirit in church. These were verified by the minister as authentic. There are ways you get this is by blessed water and touch and fire.
Justin Welby does not have the holy spirit any more than I have.
There are no angels or archangels, not even the Metatron or Michael.
They only exist in the imagination.
Queen Elizabeth I received her angelic messages from John Dee, out of the scoundrel Edward Kelly.
Queen Elizabeth II suggested she viewed her role as monarch as divinely appointed giving her 'One's duty' from faith.
Already discussed that faith is fabricated in the absence of any evidence to provide status to priests.
"These were verified by the minister as authentic. There are ways you get this is by blessed water and touch and fire."
Just grow up will you.
Don't you get the real front of any church?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c89y9g83e92o
Quote from: zorkan on August 14, 2025, 12:18:17 PMJustin Welby does not have the holy spirit any more than I have.
There are no angels or archangels, not even the Metatron or Michael.
They only exist in the imagination.
Queen Elizabeth I received her angelic messages from John Dee, out of the scoundrel Edward Kelly.
Queen Elizabeth II suggested she viewed her role as monarch as divinely appointed giving her 'One's duty' from faith.
Already discussed that faith is fabricated in the absence of any evidence to provide status to priests.
"These were verified by the minister as authentic. There are ways you get this is by blessed water and touch and fire."
Just grow up will you.
Don't you get the real front of any church?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c89y9g83e92o
I am not sure what the objection is. I am not trying to sell you anything, but merely have a dialogue conversation about new information and research that is out there. You asked some provoking questions Which I tried to provide some answers for. I do not really know the first thing about you and I think generally you cannot sell a faith to anyone. They have to go and take away anything they see and go through it and decide themselves and it comes from their soul and spirit. I have no chance of convincing here of anything and it is not my aim either.
I don't know how much of an open mind you have spiritually. You seem a bit close minded to me by what you say. I don't know if you are baptised but at that point one is blessed with more of the Holy Spirit in their life. It is given to Christians/Catholics and if you are not one and truly departed from the faith then I think it is impossible you will a working Holy Spirit like a minister of faith, but you will likely have your normal spirit at birth, and why should you desire more as the Holy Spirit is there to help the church body and to help a Christian in their journey in their faith.
Also, if you are not that faith, leave them with it may be, there is no way to dispute that and meaningless if you don't believe it you don't have to. It is that simple and no-one is calling on you to. The Bible itself Psalm 104 says that God himself makes his angles spirit so there is l basis for them. But they do not work on practices like numbers being given to them.
You have to be crazy to believe that the bible is all historical fact.
It's a work of fiction.
People are better educated these days to know that In the US:
https://news.gallup.com/poll/394262/fewer-bible-literal-word-god.aspx#:~:text=WASHINGTON%2C%20D.C.%20%2D%2D%20A%20record,points%20in%201980%20and%201984.
In the UK:
"Skepticism and Rejection of Biblical Truth:
Some people in the UK reject the Bible's truth claims altogether, viewing it as mythology, legend, or historical fiction.
They may point to perceived contradictions, scientific inaccuracies, or lack of historical evidence as reasons for their skepticism.
This perspective often stems from a broader worldview that is critical of religious claims and emphasizes reason and evidence-based understanding. "
In answer to me being baptized, then yes I was.
But I knew nothing about it at only a few months old.
I was also brainwashed into believing there is a god up there.
It lasted until I was 16.
Quote from: zorkan on August 15, 2025, 01:31:56 PMYou have to be crazy to believe that the bible is all historical fact.
It's a work of fiction.
People are better educated these days to know that In the US:
https://news.gallup.com/poll/394262/fewer-bible-literal-word-god.aspx#:~:text=WASHINGTON%2C%20D.C.%20%2D%2D%20A%20record,points%20in%201980%20and%201984.
In the UK:
"Skepticism and Rejection of Biblical Truth:
Some people in the UK reject the Bible's truth claims altogether, viewing it as mythology, legend, or historical fiction.
They may point to perceived contradictions, scientific inaccuracies, or lack of historical evidence as reasons for their skepticism.
This perspective often stems from a broader worldview that is critical of religious claims and emphasizes reason and evidence-based understanding. "
In answer to me being baptized, then yes I was.
But I knew nothing about it at only a few months old.
I was also brainwashed into believing there is a god up there.
It lasted until I was 16.
If you are of that faith you will believe in the Bible, some may see it more literally, allegorically etc but that is what they do and that is ok. If you don't have that faith you can choose not to and we can all be respective of each other, the aim. My parents originally come from a part of the world which is split on faith lines and we all get along.
I was baptised a Catholic. At birth if you do hold any truths in the Bible we are born with our own spirits and all of us have a part of God's spirit in us. Psalm 104 and Psalm 4 if you are ever interested tells you this to. Now, at baptism you was a baby and I was 8 you get more blessed with the Holy Spirit and become a part of the Body of Christ. I was given one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit at 17. I looked into my faith more at 16 by myself and this came into my spiritual life at 17. I can tell you that decades later I was still at that 17 year old level and not the most senior in type. It was more than enough for me. Now may be you still are very early entry into the spirit. People who is very developed in the faith and giving miracles of healing to people at church certainly will be given more Holy Spirit to do able to do these healing. There is no way for an ordinary person to be armed as so much as them so when you said you had the same holy spirit as the priests it is doubtful. I heard a recording for my one my spiritual gifts and it called me a junior...so why should you be a senior you know.
I also read of someone who walked away from the faith who had seemed to lose their holy spirit and it was sad to read and I wouldn't wish that for anyone.
You are the best guide for yourself. Best of luck
Hi everyone, new Pew Research for religion is out and I like to look at research like this. This is for the US. Christianity remains the biggest religion over all at 62%. They have facts for atheism and agnostics as well. I also like looking the belief section to at things like church going and prayer.
https://www.pewresearch.org/religious-landscape-study/frequency-of-prayer/at-least-daily/
https://www.pewresearch.org/religious-landscape-study/
Quote from: GreenBlaze on August 15, 2025, 03:10:21 PMIf you are of that faith you will believe in the Bible, some may see it more literally, allegorically etc but that is what they do and that is ok. If you don't have that faith you can choose not to and we can all be respective of each other, the aim. My parents originally come from a part of the world which is split on faith lines and we all get along.
I was baptised a Catholic. At birth if you do hold any truths in the Bible we are born with our own spirits and all of us have a part of God's spirit in us. Psalm 104 and Psalm 4 if you are ever interested tells you this to. Now, at baptism you was a baby and I was 8 you get more blessed with the Holy Spirit and become a part of the Body of Christ. I was given one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit at 17. I looked into my faith more at 16 by myself and this came into my spiritual life at 17. I can tell you that decades later I was still at that 17 year old level and not the most senior in type. It was more than enough for me. Now may be you still are very early entry into the spirit. People who is very developed in the faith and giving miracles of healing to people at church certainly will be given more Holy Spirit to do able to do these healing. There is no way for an ordinary person to be armed as so much as them so when you said you had the same holy spirit as the priests it is doubtful. I heard a recording for my one my spiritual gifts and it called me a junior...so why should you be a senior you know.
I also read of someone who walked away from the faith who had seemed to lose their holy spirit and it was sad to read and I wouldn't wish that for anyone.
You are the best guide for yourself. Best of luck
What is this holy spirit made of?
Whisky if you're Scottish maybe.
Millions of people have been to Lourdes in France to find the well of holy water.
"The miracles at Lourdes, France, are associated with the reported apparitions of the Virgin Mary to Bernadette Soubirous and the subsequent healings attributed to the waters of the grotto of Massabielle. While the Church has officially recognized 70 of these healings as miracles, many others are considered by pilgrims to be signs of God's grace and a source of spiritual transformation."
Very inefficient I'd say. Could do better.
If you rely more on medical drugs you are far more likely to survive.
More have survived by spontaneous remission than by supernatural cures.
Quote from: zorkan on August 18, 2025, 04:40:19 PMQuote from: GreenBlaze on August 15, 2025, 03:10:21 PMIf you are of that faith you will believe in the Bible, some may see it more literally, allegorically etc but that is what they do and that is ok. If you don't have that faith you can choose not to and we can all be respective of each other, the aim. My parents originally come from a part of the world which is split on faith lines and we all get along.
I was baptised a Catholic. At birth if you do hold any truths in the Bible we are born with our own spirits and all of us have a part of God's spirit in us. Psalm 104 and Psalm 4 if you are ever interested tells you this to. Now, at baptism you was a baby and I was 8 you get more blessed with the Holy Spirit and become a part of the Body of Christ. I was given one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit at 17. I looked into my faith more at 16 by myself and this came into my spiritual life at 17. I can tell you that decades later I was still at that 17 year old level and not the most senior in type. It was more than enough for me. Now may be you still are very early entry into the spirit. People who is very developed in the faith and giving miracles of healing to people at church certainly will be given more Holy Spirit to do able to do these healing. There is no way for an ordinary person to be armed as so much as them so when you said you had the same holy spirit as the priests it is doubtful. I heard a recording for my one my spiritual gifts and it called me a junior...so why should you be a senior you know.
I also read of someone who walked away from the faith who had seemed to lose their holy spirit and it was sad to read and I wouldn't wish that for anyone.
You are the best guide for yourself. Best of luck
What is this holy spirit made of?
Whisky if you're Scottish maybe.
Millions of people have been to Lourdes in France to find the well of holy water.
"The miracles at Lourdes, France, are associated with the reported apparitions of the Virgin Mary to Bernadette Soubirous and the subsequent healings attributed to the waters of the grotto of Massabielle. While the Church has officially recognized 70 of these healings as miracles, many others are considered by pilgrims to be signs of God's grace and a source of spiritual transformation."
Very inefficient I'd say. Could do better.
If you rely more on medical drugs you are far more likely to survive.
More have survived by spontaneous remission than by supernatural cures.
Well you are smart and someone has been on the Whisky and between them and you by saying this. it's got to be you, wake up.
The Holy Spirit is the 3rd attribute of God and know one can say and I wouldn't like to answer in detail... what we mostly know doesn't feel right to go beyond.
Most people see it as fire and energy the Holy Spirit. I have seen its presence. It is breathtaking. I have had healing to. Yes things can often take their normal course like with pills and just rest and recovery, but God can intervene as well and provide a remedy. Many don't give up their normal treatment at the same time.
It is said that the hallmark of Jesus miracles are is that they last. I have had profound things happen to me.
You can see some of my experiences here regarding healing-
https://www.racheltestimony.com/2025/04/brain-healing-from-god.html
https://www.racheltestimony.com/2025/06/miraclous-interventions-with-holy-water.html
https://www.racheltestimony.com/2025/06/miraculous-interventions-with-holy.html
https://www.racheltestimony.com/2014/06/a-brilliant-source.html
My journey of my faith has more which is on my blog.
This man seemed to be feeling the presence of the Holy Spirit previously.
https://www.city-data.com/forum/religion-spirituality/3448734-give-me-sign-please.html
You have asked these questions which is different than the title of the thread.
An example of the holy spirit is whisky.
https://caskstrength.blogspot.com/2013/08/holy-spirit-glenrothes-single-malt.html
It could also be a reference to hallucinogenic drugs, such was the Soma or magic mushroom.
Anything which alters the natural state of consciousness.
What god is, what healing is. Some substance which 'heals' your mind.
Why bother with hospitals and doctors if god's holy spirit really does heal?
Save billions and billions of taxpayers' money. Just summon the holy spirit.
I see posters outside churches which say "Come in and your cancer will go away!"
Jesus is here to heal you.
No reference to approved medical treatment for cancer which will make most cancers go away now with high probability.
So who do you call if diagnosed with cancer - the church or the doctor?
greenblaze, you mention that you have seen the presence of the holy spirit. that is useful evidence. but in christian scripture, god interacts more personally with human beings. off the top of my head, i can think of these examples:
-- god walks in physical form in the garden.
-- god speaks audibly to adam, eve, and cain
-- god appears physically to abram at his tent in mamre
-- god wrestles in physical form with jacob
-- god appears as a pillar of fire or a whirlwind to the hebrews
-- god writes in physical form with a finger on the tablets at sinai
-- god speaks audibly, in a still, small, voice to elijah
-- god writes in physical form with a finger on the wall in babylon
-- god speaks in an audible voice at the baptism of jesus
-- god appears as a physical dove at the baptism of jesus
-- god speaks in an audible voice at the transfiguration
miracles and healings dont interest me as much as direct, face to face, personal encounters such as ^^^these. has anything of this nature occurred within your experience?
Quote from: zorkan on August 20, 2025, 04:04:21 PMAn example of the holy spirit is whisky.
https://caskstrength.blogspot.com/2013/08/holy-spirit-glenrothes-single-malt.html
It could also be a reference to hallucinogenic drugs, such was the Soma or magic mushroom.
Anything which alters the natural state of consciousness.
What god is, what healing is. Some substance which 'heals' your mind.
Why bother with hospitals and doctors if god's holy spirit really does heal?
Save billions and billions of taxpayers' money. Just summon the holy spirit.
I see posters outside churches which say "Come in and your cancer will go away!"
Jesus is here to heal you.
No reference to approved medical treatment for cancer which will make most cancers go away now with high probability.
So who do you call if diagnosed with cancer - the church or the doctor?
Well, the Book of Acts mentions about if people were drunk when speaking in tongues when the Day of Pentecost came. They were not they were speaking in different languages..I don't know any other serious scripture points otherwise to note of whisky. They are told be sober minded etc.
Miracles and healing can happen if it is to be the will of the Divine creator. Of course I would suggest not to abandon medical treatment at the same time and do both. This is not the Emperor's New Clothes and you to have to have the faith. It cannot be promised from another to another and desposited into the accounts of a Charlatan for a fast buck.... it is the will of the creator and to be done by a right Spirited person of faith-I see the Holy Spirit as being better than the NHS ambulance service but for the spirit side of life though. It is faith and commitment that will usually impart these to you.
Start here you know you didn't create yourself right, you are a walking miracle. I think everyone is. So however created you is capable of much more. An open mind usually helps.
Are you happy where you are in your faith?
Feel free to try the one with bells on. The drinking Christian has irrefutable biblical justification. Two prominent tales come to mind.:
Jesus conjuring wine at the wedding do, expressly to be consumed by those present.
Jesus telling his bros to imbibe wine in his memory. He does not prescribe how much, nor how often. That's up to the faithful to determine for themselves.
"Sober minded", or maybe not so much.
I will have a look about the wine and see what is said.
I do know that Timothy a pastor a friend of Paul's was encouraged to drink wine for his frequent stomach conditions in the New Testament. It is also used as thing like in the Book of Revelations that the daughter of blasphemy was probably drunk so being drunk is tended not be promoted...but drinking moderately can be used to promote some health for some people.
Any comment on the PEW research as that is the newest we have to date. The Census is what we use primarily in the UK and the last one was 2021 during COVID and they come out I think every ten years.
Looking at stats Israel is meant be just 2% Christian. It seems like us almost the new Israel in terms of Christianity. Some people think is the Babylon=Hollywood, but it falls through as God said he wouldn't destroy a small degree of people were found in it...interesting to me. How about you...
Turning wine into blood is the objective of the catholic mass.
Then the faithful drink the blood, or is it still wine?
Not sure, but having tasted it myself I'd say it's still wine, but I don't know what christ's blood might taste like.
Wine might be alcohol-free these days, but Jesus as a boy raises all sorts of questions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infancy_Gospel_of_Thomas#Content
Did he really bring clay birds to life and kill other kids?
Didn't seem to love his neighbours, either.
Is this the kind and gentle Jesus who suffered children to come to him without hindrance?
I will come back later, but has anyone heard of this going round social media, the rapture will be taking place in September. I have just read a post on this somewhere.
Indeed. Any day now (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dates_predicted_for_apocalyptic_events#Past_predictions), we're told.
^ Indeed. :rofl:
Repent now you sinners or you won't meet Jesus in the air on 23rd September.
Yet he sinned by ordering a horse to be stolen.
Luke 29-30:
When he had come near Bethphage and Bethany, at the place called the Mount of Olives, he sent two of the disciples, saying, "Go into the village ahead of you, and as you enter it you will find tied there a colt that has never been ridden. Untie it and bring it here.