It'll be interesting to see why he did it.
Luigi Mangione charged with murdering healthcare CEO in New York (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cly2zwqqr1ro)
Quote from: Tank on December 10, 2024, 11:12:00 AMIt'll be interesting to see why he did it.
Luigi Mangione charged with murdering healthcare CEO in New York (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cly2zwqqr1ro)
This is the problem with all these tired old rationalist type forums
You old wise types sit puffing your pipes patiently waiting to see how things turn out
Well I want conjecture!
I want my marshmallow now!Why couldn't he wear a false beard and big sunglasses and a cap always?
He's probably lost someone
He's probably mentally ill
He's quite the hero over on Imgur
It's alright if we kill someone because the government isn't doing what we think it should
New York will box him, not kill him directly.
Surrendered his life for a gesture, slightly better than setting yourself on fire I suppose.
Eh... I'll take it a step further than Tank and say that they have an suspect in custody who, until convicted, didn' do nuthin'.
On a more general note, yeah... If it's life exchanged for some notion of martyrdom, then it's just sad. I blame the Interwebs. Well, not really, but it is not entirely untrue.
Quote from: Asmodean on December 11, 2024, 02:55:56 PMEh... I'll take it a step further than Tank and say that they have an suspect in custody who, until convicted, didn' do nuthin'.
On a more general note, yeah... If it's life exchanged for some notion of martyrdom, then it's just sad. I blame the Interwebs. Well, not really, but it is not entirely untrue.
I think he's bang to right on this one. So while you are 100% technically correct I don't think they need to look for any further suspects. The ironic thing is he's now covered by the state medical insurance! :rofl:
We have a less than ideal medical care system. Sure enough we have all the bells and whistles of the most advanced medical science and practice. Problem is that so few of us can afford the price. Our medical insurance cost is pretty steep. It is not unusual for a young married couple to have to pay 10, 15, 20% of their income for health insurance premiums.
It is not unusual to have the big time insurance providers to DENY coverage for whatever the medical case may be. The Billing for treatment of a Broken leg, for example, might very well extend into the tens of thousands of dollars. The medical care providers are either forced into issuing exhorbitant billing or they issue that kind of billing because they are as greedy as the are insurance providers.
Here is an example........i managed to tear open a 5cm skin injury in one of my arms. I was bleeding but not in any danger of dying or even getting excited about all that blood. That was the day after a wicked hurricane that had hit this Florida Area. The usual Urgent care facilities that, I would have ordinarily used, were closed while the staff was recovering from the damages to their homes or properties. I went to the only open emergency care outfit that was open for business on this side of my city. A surly nurse, not a doctor, looked at my wounded arm. She sloppily put some "Steri- Strips (adhesive tapes strips) on the arm to close the wounds. The eventual billing was 3,300 dollars. I paid 100 $ co pay and the insurance company negotiated the remainder of the bill down to the 800$ that they paid. My ordinary urgent care clinic would have billed their standard 190 dollars for the same treatment and my co pay would have been $10. So you see the system is really fucked up.
The insurance carriers are certainly not innocent. They do sometimes deny payment, or in many cases deny the patient the ability to be treated at all for problems that may even be life threatening.
In my case I am doing well, much better than my younger neighbors. I am old enough to qualify for a type of federal health care benefits that take a lot of the load off the insurance companies. I pay a small monthly sum for the combined coverage of Medicare and Humana insurance. I have no axe to grind but I do have some compassion for those younger people who may be dying of, one malady or another, that they cannot afford to have treated by the medical community.
As a Brit I do find the American health care system terrifying.
Quote from: Tank on December 11, 2024, 06:44:01 PMSo while you are 100% technically correct
(https://media1.tenor.com/m/0DZpbooeCMcAAAAd/correct-technically-correct.gif)
Nah... The way I see it, unless caught in the act, it would have to be proven that he dun' did the thing - even if he
says he did it, in fact. People lie, etc.
I
suspect that the suspect is guilty, but my suspicions may be suspect. Suspiciously so.
The Asmo wanders off, quite proud of Himself-self for that word play over yonder. ^^
(https://i.imgur.com/b4M0MNj.jpeg)
Not just America though. Norwegian helathcare system will shove your ass right under that bus if the treatment you need is too expensive for them, pretty much no matter your value to the society, and we don't even have a well-established health insurance industry or culture to lean on when that happens.
It works for "most people most of the time," and the poorer you are, the better, comparatively speaking, it works for you... Most of the time.
I think a good healthcare system lies somewhere in-between treating emergencies, then billing the patient whether or not he has the ability to pay, and offering above-mediocre "free" healthcare to everyone - but "only" that.
Also, there are more ways of not being able to afford to be alive out there. For example, you may not be able to afford food because meth is bloody expensive in above-miniscule quantities. And speaking of, you may not even be able to afford meth not laced with a unhealthy amount of Fentanyl. Or you may be a pensioner in the south of Norway, where an electricity can cost you a buck a kilowatt or more these days. That's a dollar to run your average heater for thirty minutes, and so someone may end up finding your frigid remains under eighteen blankets come spring.
well, is it time to talk about the politics? i have some questions, some rhetorical.
a man was murdered on a new york city sidewalk. approximately one new yorker lies dead on the sidewalk every day. why has this death received this much attention? he was a multi-millionaire health care company CEO.
this individual immediately got a $60 000 reward offered by the Government for apprehension of the killer. why was his death worth so much reward money? nobody else in NYC gets this attention.
the killer was apparently motivated by a dislike of the health care system in america. he has received public adulation for the killing. why?
there are legal, politica,l and moral rules that state that killing someone is wrong. people are saying this killing was not wrong. how is this reconciled?
are there social contract contradictions involved in this event? is it never okay to kill someone, or are there situations where it is sometimes okay to kill someone?
if it sometimes okay, what are the preconditions that need to be satisfied?
which arguments for and against justifying this killing are valid, and which are not?
im curious. ive thought a lot about this killing, and i have decided that i do not condemn the killer, and would nullify any prosecution of him should i be called to be on his jury. in other words, i consider the death of this healthcare businessman to be a justifiable homicide.
this is very interesting, to me.
what is your opinion?
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/dec/13/health-insurance-wheelchair-delay?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other
Apparently somebody started a defence fund for him and immediately started receiving donations. Lots of donations.
he is regarded as a robin hood by all the people in my family.
the crowdfunding site gofundme is said to have pulled three accounts attempting to solicit money for him, as it violates their terms of service.
however, you can send money today to a source that transfers the funds directly to him, if you want.
https://www.givesendgo.com/legalfund-ceo-shooting-suspect
US $94,873 so far.
added:
one hour later, and its up to $96,147
The dark fandom behind healthcare CEO murder suspect (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cp8nk75vg81o)
https://imgur.com/gallery/oh-no-won-t-anybody-think-of-poor-executives-cexZtLw
That about sums up the American nightmare :(
I consider myself fortunate that I'm a member of an HMO that is pro-active with my health care. I only complained once, and that employee still hates me. See to it that I'm denied treatment and find out. :???:
the important question to ask is where this will lead.
1 will we see the mainstream corporate vilification of this guy, and a quick trial and punishment?
2 will we see the popular target of psychos switch from school shootings to CEOs?
3 will we see american business recognize that it needs to be more socially responsible?
which is likeliest?
i vote 1 is likely.
2 would be great.
3 is not going to happen.
in related news
https://abc7.com/post/unitedhealth-group-ceo-andrew-witty-says-americas-health-system-is-poorly-designed-response-brian-thompson-murder-nyc/15656649/
QuoteOur role is a critical role, and we make sure that care is safe, appropriate, and it's delivered when people need it," said Witty in a video message obtained by CNN. "And we guard against the pressures that exist for unsafe care or for unnecessary care to be delivered in a way which makes the whole system too complex and ultimately unsustainable. So we're going to continue to make that case."
witty is thompsons replacement.
he hasnt got the message yet.
Too many people value money/power over people. Put them in an exploitative environment and they will flourish.
until the rest of the people decide that the exploiters are better off dead.
we re apparently there, right now.
Quote from: billy rubin on December 13, 2024, 11:03:47 PMwell, is it time to talk about the politics? i have some questions, some rhetorical.
...and The Asmo will be pleased to do His best - sometimes rhetorically.
Quotea man was murdered on a new york city sidewalk. approximately one new yorker lies dead on the sidewalk every day. why has this death received this much attention? he was a multi-millionaire health care company CEO.
this individual immediately got a $60 000 reward offered by the Government for apprehension of the killer. why was his death worth so much reward money? nobody else in NYC gets this attention.
This one is pretty easy. Not every life is equal to another in its worth to the society it's in, nor is one murder equal to another. Police may concentrate more on child-, cop- or wealthy-person killers than they do on, say, gangbangers gang-banging each other. There is a gradient in-between.
Quotethe killer was apparently motivated by a dislike of the health care system in america. he has received public adulation for the killing. why?
there are legal, politica,l and moral rules that state that killing someone is wrong. people are saying this killing was not wrong. how is this reconciled?
I think the answer to both points is [possibly-wanton] hypocricy. "It's wrong to kill, but if it's someone
I happen to despise, then they've got what was coming." It's broadly the same thing as "It's wrong to spend so much tax payer's money on bullshit causes - except
my own." Life is full of such examples of people elevating their own emotional baggage to override their stated moral imperatives. some even choose to justify it behind a veneer of thought process.
Quoteare there social contract contradictions involved in this event? is it never okay to kill someone, or are there situations where it is sometimes okay to kill someone?
That depends. Are you speaking aspirationally or realistically? Realistically speaking, a
lot of people are perfectly OK with killing other people under the "right" circumstances. similarly, a lot of people
would kill under the right circumstances, even if they considered the act of killing wrong as a matter of principle.
Quotewhich arguments for and against justifying this killing are valid, and which are not?
Example for: "He needed killing." An argumetn that the victim was a net-drain on or a net-threat to their community or society. It's not unlike the citizen's arrest version of death penalty. It's a valid argument as it identifies a problem and a functional solution.
Example against: "He was a net contributor." This is pretty much the opposing argument, that may go along the lines of "This guy paid more taxes in a year than his killer did in a lifetime." I'm not going too much deeper into this one - it's just the reversal of the former. Equally valid, though with regard to a different set of variables. ("Wrong solution to wrong problem")
There are also moral arguments to be made this way and that, but them's been with us since time itself gave us the ability to reason, I suspect.
Quoteim curious. ive thought a lot about this killing, and i have decided that i do not condemn the killer, and would nullify any prosecution of him should i be called to be on his jury. in other words, i consider the death of this healthcare businessman to be a justifiable homicide.
I like to think that in that situation, I would make as impartial a decision as I could based on the facts presented at trial. But then, I suspect I would be a very "flowchart justice" kind of juror regardless.
Quote from: Asmodean on December 16, 2024, 09:05:27 AMQuoteim curious. ive thought a lot about this killing, and i have decided that i do not condemn the killer, and would nullify any prosecution of him should i be called to be on his jury. in other words, i consider the death of this healthcare businessman to be a justifiable homicide.
I like to think that in that situation, I would make as impartial a decision as I could based on the facts presented at trial. But then, I suspect I would be a very "flowchart justice" kind of juror regardless.
A person should not kill is a broadly accepted principle, obviously.
Of course it isn't a binary right or wrong thing, there are legal, moral/philosophical exceptions.
I'm not convinced a moral/philosophical exception is justified, I find the death to all CEOs and billionaires echo chamber juvenile and stupid. I'm ignorant of harm done by the US health bizes though, and why there are no OK ones, how about a not for profit? but that would have to have a CEO of some sort, who'd by definition deserve to die.
He might not deserve to go to hell but he needs to go to jail, you don't let a person hunt down a person, kill them without a legal justification and go free, it's not a fun place to go.
(assuming proven guilt)
in my opinion, my country is approaching a bastille moment.
like it or not, true or not, a large proportion of people no longer consider themselves to be partners in a mutually-beneficial economic system. this obtains in health care, housing, financial security, and many other aspects of my country's society.
when a large enough proportion of the people no longer see themselves as equal beneficiaries of their social contract, they will re-write the social contract to reflect their own needs. it doesnt matter whether its legal, or is "morally right." it will happen regardless.
murder is technically wrong, but i cant find it in me to give a rats ass about the death of this millionaire. at $14 million dollars per year, he was making $7000 per hour.
Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
im more interested in whether his death will result in significant change in the lives of the many millions of people who have never received $7000 per hour, or even enough to graduate from working full time while still sleeping on their parents couch.
in other news
CEO sympathizer https://imgur.com/gallery/hvNH8mt
That was bizarre.
welcome to the monkey house, tank.
which side of the bars on you on?
I think it must be truly hard for those in Europe (and Australia) in countries with a public health care system and some modicum of a social safety net to truly understand how bleak the US system is if you are poor or lower middle class. I really think you just can't comprehend life here for huge swaths of the US population. That's what accounts for the reaction to the United CEO's death.
Sufficiently Well done explanation Anne.
Our health care system is overrun with abject unfairness. Much, not all, of it is a result of the unbridled greed of our insurance companies and pharmaceutical houses.
Someone please explain why one of the pharmaceutical manufacturers can charge me $680 for a months supply of meds for my mild OPD, but manage to have it delivered for 20 dollars when routed through the appropriate channels. Something is amiss here..........Less fortunate people do not have access to that advantage.
Quote from: billy rubin on December 18, 2024, 07:43:04 PMim more interested in whether his death will result in significant change in the lives of the many millions of people who have never received $7000 per hour, or even enough to graduate from working full time while still sleeping on their parents couch.
The many millions? I would be willing to bet that the answer to that is "no."
The murder suspect? Well... If convicted, he is looking at some lifestyle changes.
Friends, family, etc..? Depends on who.
As an aside, it is expensive to build a house properly, and so it is expensive to buy a house. When it comes to rental spaces, the price is a matter of supply and demand. What on Earth do you want from the housing market? It costs money to have things like roof, walls and plumbing. A
lot of money, in fact. Over in my general area, some fifty-sixty years ago you could build a house and live in it. If you built that same house today, it would likely be classified as a shed or non-living space. So, add some requirement creep to the general price creep and there you have it. Only around 2-3% of the local property sales are within the debt-up-to-your-eyeballs range of a average Norwegian nurse. The rest are without. For many people, if they want to own something, they would have to buy an older property somewhere outside the main population areas and transportation routes. That, or make more money or get together with someone and co-own. That's what it is.
Similarly, there are places in the United States where you could get a house (And by that, I don't mean some ruin with mold growing on lead-painted asbestos) for, say, 50K. Central San Francisco is probably not it, so if you choose (or for some reason have to) to live
there, then be prepared to multiply that by a hundred or several. And yeah, that probably does mean bunkin' with mum until you are 40. cost of doing business. for you and mum both, likely as not.
asmo, the current median house price in tbe united states is $501,000.
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/ASPUS
In itself, that is not a very useful number, though it just so happens to sit in the middle of my Hillbillyville, Louisiana vs. central SF example. Sure, it tells you that roughly half the properties are likely to be cheaper than that (Not really, but that's what it more or less works out as) but it says little about what you get for said amount of coinage.
I'd recommend looking at the per square foot prices in stead. A house may not be a house, but a foot is generally what it is.
on tbe contrary, price per area varies all over the country, for msny reasons. in appalachia, a huge structure costs the same or less as as a small structure in honolulu. either can serve as a dwelling-- size is not relevant.
median prices reflect thr central tendency of what is actually paid by people looking for something to live in, and remove the variation introduced by extraneous factors.
a half-million dollars is more than anybody i know can afford.
Quote from: billy rubin on December 19, 2024, 12:59:34 PMon tbe contrary, price per area varies all over the country. in appalachia, a huge structure costs the same or less as as a small structure in honolulu.
median prices reflect thr central tendency of what is actually paid by people looking for something to live in.
a half-million dollars is more than anybody i know can afford.
Let me au-contraire your au-contraire. Half mil US is pretty much the starting price where I live. It will likely get you a apartment, not a house.* In a suitably deep, dark valley off the main road, however, you will quite literally not find anything even remotely that expensive unless it comes with like ten thousand acres of productive land and a bunch of other government strings attached. That's the point.
*The exmaple I used previously with percentages of properties available to them single nurses of average pay was based around 3MNOK, of which 2,5MNOK are a loan and .5MNOK are capital savings. Divide by roughly 11.5 for USD equivalent) So, don't have 40-50K or more in savings? Then you won't get a loan and don't get to buy anything. Did get a loan? Then you won't be able to afford a lot of those things you thought you would get before pretty much retirement. OR you could buy that apartment in Rjukan for 350KNOK. In any case...
Per area prices are a good indicator for measuring like against like structure-wise, and also work as an indicator for maintenance/condition of the property. You could compare a whole compound in Outer Nowhere to a chicken coop in Hawaii, but what would that comparison tell you? That you get far less for a buck in Hawaii? Well, duh. The per-area price would do the same.
Thing is, when you buy a house, it's a long-term investment for the majority of us regular mortals. If I took out a loan and bought me some property, I'd spend 2/3 of my netto paycheck on that loan for years and years and even more years to come, even before having paid for a single kilowatt of electricalness or for the garbage man to come and yell at me for putting chicken bones into general waste rather than organic waste. "Nobody" I know can "just-afford" a house either. That's what the friendly neighbourhood bank is for. I can't afford 500KUS now. Can I afford 1MUS over 20 years? Yeah. If prepared to make sacrifices as described, I can.
EDIT: Just because interesting, a colleague just finished building a house on the nicer end of normal, with three bedrooms and a smaller-ish rental space. That cost around 900K US. It would have been in that neighbourhood whether he built it in Outer Nowhere or precisely where he did. Give or take maybe 50-100K for the difference in price of the plot land itself. That's what an new family home like that costs in this country. Most people who build outside main population hubs, have to count on building at a loss or building down to a price, because should they sell the property later, it may go for less than half of its construction cost. I suppose it's OK when you build a house you mean to live and die in, but... Not always the case, that either. (This goes for private residences as well as other structures)
Quote from: billy rubin on December 19, 2024, 12:59:34 PMon tbe contrary, price per area varies all over the country, for msny reasons. in appalachia, a huge structure costs the same or less as as a small structure in honolulu. either can serve as a dwelling-- size is not relevant.
median prices reflect thr central tendency of what is actually paid by people looking for something to live in, and remove the variation introduced by extraneous factors.
a half-million dollars is more than anybody i know can afford.
When my son bought a $1m fixeruper in San Francisco I was expecting some dilapidated old but large'ish place. I just about kept the look of underwhelmwent off my face when we first visited.
"About 73% of Australia's population lives in major cities"
"National capital city median house prices November AUD $1,163,921"
/100 x 65 = US $756,549
Sydney AUD $1,652,939
/100 x 65 = US $1,074,410
"So new block sizes are currently around one-third to one-quarter the size of the 1950s, with most of the shrinkage occurring within the last decade."
In my lifetime our population has gone from 10.7 to 26.7 million, I think life would be easier if it hadn't.
If you're young I suggest selecting parents that will help.
Quote from: The Magic Pudding.. on December 20, 2024, 01:34:26 AMIf you're young I suggest selecting parents that will help.
This. And if you are a parent who wants to help them kids onto the urban housing market, you should count on them being
far more expensive than you yourself had ever dreamt of being.
Heck, there are plenty of cities out there where doctors and lawyers struggle to afford real estate. Well, if you want to stay in one... Find a roommate, I guess.
One guy in my family solved this by moving out to the country, getting some fiberoptics and taking his psychology practice duigital. His cost of living is pretty low when compared to his income. This may work for some, if work is what keeps your always-broke butt urban.