I seem to be almost tripping over books on longevity these days, usually written by some bald head who looks his age, or older.
Listened to David Sinclair last night. His book is called Lifespan, and he promotes Resveratrol.
Then there's Outlive by Peter Attia.
Any number of other titles are available, with names like How Not To Age, or How Not To Die.
So you've bought a gym membership, an ant-ageing cream, tubs of vitamin pills, signed up for yoga class.
Then you look in the mirror, if you still dare.
Goes back a least as far as the Epic of Gilgamesh and a magic plant which allowed immortality.
Pity a snake got there first.
Then I read this article.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_extension
Maybe there's a pill coming for outrunning the 2nd law of thermodynamics.
Until then I'm a sceptic.
why would one want to live forever?
jonathan swift pilloried the idea of mere longevity in his voyage to Luggnagg, where people lived forever but did not enjoy any freedom from the infirmity that came with age.
anyway, i dunno why people want to live forever. i would rather live well than live longer. like jack london, i would rather be ashes than dust.
I agree with Billy.
I want a certain quality to my life. Been there, done that, planted a tree, built a bunch of houses... Yeah. I think there may come a point where I will be content with what's in my rear view mirror without really looking forward to what's in my windshield.
vonnegut wrote of a man who was given a choice- to complete his death or walk the galapagos as a ghost for a million years and then choose again for a final time.
after a million years of change nothing that he valued was still recognizeable. when his time was up, he chose to move on.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galápagos_(novel)
Quote from: billy rubin on July 14, 2024, 06:13:16 PMwhy would one want to live forever?
Not if you were Tithonus.
"Aurora abducted Tithonus and asked Zeus to grant him immortality, which Zeus did. However, she forgot to ask that he also grant eternal youth, so Tithonus soon became a decrepit old man who could not die. Aurora finally transformed him into a grasshopper to relieve him of his sad existence."
There is an episode of Star Trek where a planet is so full of people they crave to be alone.
It has been suggested that living to 150 could be common by next century.
We would have to find a second home.
Quote from: billy rubin on July 15, 2024, 01:53:22 PMvonnegut wrote of a man who was given a choice- to complete his death or walk the galapagos as a ghost for a million years and then choose again for a final time.
I have a book called Darwin's Finches, and from what I understand you wouldn't want to be there for even one year.
Great book, though.
Maybe if the island I was on had a golf course.
Good point made in a book I read yesterday.
The longevity experts are exploring ways we can live to 150.
But whoever might get there first could decide they should live to 300.
Yet who, quite frankly, is not going to be tired of this world long before then.
https://news.uchicago.edu/why-we-die-and-how-we-can-live-longer-nobel-laureate-venki-ramakrishnan-ep-134
Meanwhile you could try this to increase your telomerase.
https://www.elle.com/life-love/news/a43126/telomeres-mind-body-practices-and-cell-aging/
My expectation would be that lost telomeres can't be replaced. Entropy, y'know?
what about gene splicing at the gamete level to double or triple the length of the telomere section before further mitosis?
tripling the length could theoretically add that extra number of cell divisions.
I know very little about that kind of biology.
I have laymanly wondered about that. Say a cell could divide an limited number of times. Given random mutations and other such "code degradation," how "close" is the "cutoff point" to what may be reasonably expected with regard to the overall usefulness of a cell to its host organism. As in, do they tend to stop dividing hundreds of generations prior to being "too degraded," or have we evolved to "fail" "just before" the point of "uselessness?"
Admittedly though, I'm at best a somewhat-intelligent layman in that field of science. Too "squishy" for me, I guess, so I don't even know if it's a valid line of inquiry. (As in, the answer could well be "it simply does not work that way") Still... Interesting to contemplate from that angle. "Evolved obsolescence." Has anybody coined that?
natural selection cannot act on an organisms fitness unless the organism can reproduce or assist close relatives in reproduction. the question that i wonder about is age-induced sterility.
why do so many animals become infertile with age?
living forever is not adaptive unless your genotype continues to leave more offspring behind. but if you can litter the future with your kids forever, your genotype will flourish.
the telomere question is irrelevant if it doesnt allow you to make more babies. elon musk's kids might be able to live forever through use of CRISPER, if i have that right. but who wants more of elon?
Oh, come on! Galaxy Brain should be the progenitor of a new generation! Just look at all the positive aspects and grand contributions he's made in the world! /s
Extending living to 150 years would crash the existing systems we're under presently. Over population would increase. Puberty would have to (somehow) be extended to age 45 - 55 in order to curb birthrates. It may be be necessary to readjust all civil systems. :)
...The Asmo couldn't collect His pension for another ninety-some years. Do let us not forget that! >:(
I'm not on board with waiting that long to retire, either. I worked for 45 years and managed to retire at age 62, almost 10 years ago. Though I do feel a trifle embarrassed that I may live for 30 years after my retirement date. :hahaha...no:
Quote from: Old Seer on August 07, 2024, 03:34:52 PMExtending living to 150 years would crash the existing systems we're under presently. Over population would increase. Puberty would have to (somehow) be extended to age 45 - 55 in order to curb birthrates. It may be be necessary to readjust all civil systems. :)
Yet since 1950 fertility rate has halved.
Seems logical if average lifespan gets to 150 you can't retire until you are over 120.
There is always a price to be paid.
Until telomerase injections are available you could go and live in a blue zone where people live the longest.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_zone#:~:text=A%20blue%20zone%20is%20a,diet%2C%20and%20low%20disease%20incidence.
You could also try the Jeanne Calment method to life beyond 120.
She lived into her 123rd orbit of the sun by not doing a day's work in her life.
She drank, smoked and ate a kilo of chocolate a week.
She took fairly modest exercise like cycling and roller skating.
She is credited with being the verified oldest person to have lived.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeanne_Calment
Genetics also has much to do with ones longevity. People that are naturally more content and accept fates/loses tend to live longer than those in the more hyper/fast lanes of life and erratic temperament. The fast lanes are more prone to disease and shorter life spans. Also, eating to much causes higher disease and shorter life span. Early retirement with moderate exercise and diet increases life span.
Any number of sources on this topic. Here's just one.
"The study of longevity genes is a developing science. It is estimated that about 25 percent of the variation in human life span is determined by genetics, but which genes, and how they contribute to longevity, are not well understood."
There are so many studies taking place right now into why some people have longer or shorter lives.
But what exactly is a gene?
All a gene seems to do is encode a protein.
Longevity may have more to do with the mitochondria than the gene.
It might also have something to do with what lies between the cells and how effective the body is in clearing out the mess.
Each cell has 2 metres of DNA. You stretch to the moon and back.
Quote from: Dark Lightning on August 07, 2024, 11:44:35 PMI'm not on board with waiting that long to retire, either. I worked for 45 years and managed to retire at age 62, almost 10 years ago. Though I do feel a trifle embarrassed that I may live for 30 years after my retirement date. :hahaha...no:
And why shouldn't as much of your life be fully yours to enjoy as possible? The Asmo, for one, fully approves of you living for decades past retirement. :smilenod:
(Obviously, there are logistical and economic challenges, but as the general principle of the matter)
Avenge yourself by living long enough to become a problem to your children.
Here's a few tips.
Cut down the calories.
Get plenty of rest and sleep.
Don't work beyond the age of 55.
Treat work like a spectator sport.
Treat life as if it's one long holiday.
Do yoga once a week and qigong for a few minutes a day.
Do the Tibetan Rites and the sitting-rising test once a week.
Then put your feet up and just relax.
Nah. I'll trust fairly good family history of longevity to keep me a-tickin'.
While some healthy lifestyle choices may help along, the specific above tips would largely prove to be rather on the counterproductive or ineffective side to someone like my sweet, sweet self, though I could probably benefit from a less junky diet.
I do see what you are trying to say, but with regard to longevity, "all" advice beyond "stay active and healthy" is or has the potential of being wishful-thinking-snake-oil. In your particular case, the majority depends on actually knowing the person you are advising, and can as such be worse than "just snake oil" if you do not. It may equally well be that "eat more, get out of bed and don't be a lazy couch vegetable" would better apply to a random reader.
...Imagine advising an anorexic person to cut their calories. They'll die agreeing with you.
So, the very best tip may just be "don't listen to tips." ;)
Quote from: Asmodean on August 09, 2024, 07:20:27 AMQuote from: Dark Lightning on August 07, 2024, 11:44:35 PMI'm not on board with waiting that long to retire, either. I worked for 45 years and managed to retire at age 62, almost 10 years ago. Though I do feel a trifle embarrassed that I may live for 30 years after my retirement date. :hahaha...no:
And why shouldn't as much of your life be fully yours to enjoy as possible? The Asmo, for one, fully approves of you living for decades past retirement. :smilenod:
(Obviously, there are logistical and economic challenges, but as the general principle of the matter)
Why, thank you, kind sir! I'm enjoying most of it. Though I will admit that pushing that boulder up the hill for so many years has left me with remnants of a work ethic.
The human place in the cosmos means that we're fixed to a planet where all life forms are doomed.
With that thought in mind it's no wonder religions promise eternal life elsewhere.
For people who don't buy into that there are longevity experts who are trying to help your brief existence be a healthier and longer one.
There are also remedies like statin and blood pills and medical science is better than any time in history.
I'm not sure why you would not want to take up the offer.
Quote from: zorkan on August 10, 2024, 11:57:21 AMI'm not sure why you would not want to take up the offer.
There's pain and loss of function.
And then there's the acquisitive medical profession, I begrudge giving them anything.
We did have a member who spent everything he had for his last months of pain, I'd rather my wife/children have my $.
I dread the pain and hope it's brief, but I'll try the painkillers.
I like yoga because it enables my body to feel pain and I'd argue that's how it works.
I agree that you should leave behind money and assets for the next generation.
Quote from: zorkan on August 10, 2024, 01:17:41 PMI agree that you should leave behind money and assets for the next generation.
You housed and fed and nurtured your progeny through many years. For many of us we paid for their college tuition, bought them cars, gave them spending money, attended their wedding and other occasions on their behalf, and more.
Do you actually believe that somehow you are obligated to leave them more wealth or property?
Quote from: Dark Lightning on August 09, 2024, 03:19:04 PMThough I will admit that pushing that boulder up the hill for so many years has left me with remnants of a work ethic.
Yeah, that very boulder gave me arthrosis in a painful place, but hwy complain about ships long sailed, amiright? :smilenod:
Quote from: Icarus on August 11, 2024, 03:29:37 AMDo you actually believe that somehow you are obligated to leave them more wealth or property?
Maybe my conscience gets the better.
If you think they will probably squander the wealth, give it to charity.
I'm looking at a few books on longevity, which I'll give an opinion.
#1.
https://andrewsteele.co.uk/ageless/
He does make reference to the 2nd law of thermodynamics, and he gets it wrong.
But don't they all?
#2.
https://instaread.co/insights/health-fitness/the-telomere-effect-book/tpt1chtnmd
I'd like better information on how doing qigong actually works to promote production of telomerase.
The authors were supposed to provide examples, but I can't find any.
#3.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Age-Proof-Science-Living-Healthier/dp/1788705041
Again, no evidence provided as to how ideas presented in the chapters actually work.
#4.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Outlive-Science-Longevity-Peter-Attia/dp/1785044540
Plenty of information from a surgeon but lacking in detail.
#5
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lifespan:_Why_We_Age_%E2%80%93_and_Why_We_Don%27t_Have_To
I have plenty of doubt about this one and a suspicion that the author is trying to advertise a product.
Stand in the cold to promote longevity genes is more likely to leave you with an infection.
Don't try this at home.
https://www.topdoctors.co.uk/medical-articles/male-castration-longevity-and-testosterone-what-does-the-data-tell-us
Quote from: Asmodean on August 12, 2024, 12:46:49 PMQuote from: Dark Lightning on August 09, 2024, 03:19:04 PMThough I will admit that pushing that boulder up the hill for so many years has left me with remnants of a work ethic.
Yeah, that very boulder gave me arthrosis in a painful place, but hwy complain about ships long sailed, amiright? :smilenod:
I went out to the garage and made a chest to hold my sheets of sandpaper. Work ethic itch scratched. I'm more driven by the fact that I have a lot of wood that I want to use up before I croak.
im building a motorcycle out of my pile of spare parts.
and labelling things:
. . . this ARD magneto is worth $1800 . . .
this pair of GP2 carburetters is worth $2000 . . .
nobody knows this shit but me. hate to see them throw it out when they could make money on eBay
Here's an idea. Sell one or more of those treasures and use the cash to take your wife to a very expensive restaurant or a small vacation or something else that is genuinely thoughtful.
I failed to do that for my first wife. She died suddenly having never been treated as the spectacular human that she was. She died 40 years ago and I still feel some guilt. I let my own self interest cause me forget how important and irreplaceable that she was.
Studies show that thinking more about the future than the past will help you live longer.
But don't just think, write down your ambitions.
Do a bit of cosmic ordering.
Like, I want to do a parachute jump when I'm 100.
Followed by a marathon, then a 100 mile cycle ride.
Studies show that women live longer than men.
But on the other hand:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/aug/03/women-may-not-live-longer-than-men-after-all-study
Mark Hyman, author of Young Forever is adamant that what you eat will help you live longer (and don't skip breakfast) still managed to run into health problems.
https://drhyman.com/blogs/content/personal-health-crisis
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Young-Forever-SUNDAY-TIMES-BESTSELLER/dp/1399716301
Nobody is young forever., but luck might be the biggest factor in survival.
:rofl:
Oldest person in the world is now a Japanese woman age 116.
That's after death of Spanish woman aged 117 a few days ago.
https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/world-news/new-worlds-oldest-living-person-33502990
I'll add to my to-do list 100 summits in 100 days.
I'll just... Preferably die doing something fun before I'm blind, deaf and lame. :smilenod:
Quote from: Icarus on August 20, 2024, 07:38:26 AMHere's an idea. Sell one or more of those treasures and use the cash to take your wife to a very expensive restaurant or a small vacation or something else that is genuinely thoughtful.
I failed to do that for my first wife. She died suddenly having never been treated as the spectacular human that she was. She died 40 years ago and I still feel some guilt. I let my own self interest cause me forget how important and irreplaceable that she was.
that is very good advice. the wife hasnt had a vacation in a long time
My wife is going to Europe to visit her cousins. She get to travel, I get some peace and quiet. The TV will be off until she comes back. :smilenod:
THere are times I wish my other half had a mute button.
Have to admit, I do love secrets.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/TIBETAN-RITES-Discover-Anti-Aging-Practicing/dp/B08SYN76SF
I've been practicing them for a few years, and I cannot make a judgement because there isn't 2 copies of me.
However, doing the exercises is a bit like what chiropractors are trying to achieve, freeing the nerves from the spine.
Big difference is the Rites are free.
Possibly add the yoga front, back and side planks for optimum spine health.
No book on longevity I've seen mentions the Rites.
PS. Don't buy the book.
https://www.freedivers.net/documents/The%205%20Tibetans.pdf
Been thinking about this one and it's got me into some trouble in the past because for some reason people don't like it.
https://time.com/6267767/surprising-benefits-of-sitting-on-the-floor/
Work up to 30 minutes if possible then throw away those longevity books.
5 minutes is still good.
At end of practice try the rising test.
https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/all-rise-now-just-how-fit-are-you-2020050619770
There are also people who want to live shorter.
Most famously in the UK a much admired TV celebrity believes in assisted dying.
It's illegal but she might go to Switzerland.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cgj4q4z3yvdo#:~:text=Dame%20Esther%2C%2084%2C%20who%20previously,before%20being%20debated%20in%20November.
But this upsets the archbishop.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn9dn42xqg4o
This is worth a read.
https://alzheimer.ca/en/about-dementia/how-can-i-prevent-dementia/12-brain-health-actions-landmark-study
I like the bit about walking, yoga and tai chi.
Generally good for the production of telomerase which protects the cells.
World's oldest man died yesterday.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/crk43k54mk0o
He says there is no secret to longevity, and he's probably right.
Parliament voted today to start the process of making 'assisted dying' legal in England and Wales. Scotland having their own legislation.
Quote from: Tank on November 29, 2024, 06:04:12 PMParliament voted today to start the process of making 'assisted dying' legal in England and Wales. Scotland having their own legislation.
A remarkably kind and sensible proposal. Terminally ill or irreparably damaged people do not need to suffer unnecessarily while awaiting the ultimate outcome. We mercifully euthanize animals when they are suffering. What is the reason to avoid favoring Humans with that sort of kindness? ..........Answer: Religion forbids it.
i think thats what it boils down to.
in my opinion, the decision as to when to end ones life should be a private one. i dont buy the idea that the the state has an overriding interest in controlling you in that regard.
lots of details in that devil.
I need to formalize my requirements in the case that I'm left quadriplegic or incapacitated in some way where I can't make my wishes clear. In either of those cases, I want no nutrition nor even an IV. My wife's mother laid in a bed for almost 2 years after a stroke. Managed to eat, though. It's a complete waste of resources that I have no interest in using...just to end up dead at the end, anyway.
Here is the law as proposed in detail Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (https://bills.parliament.uk/bills/3774).
It still has some way to go and may be modified in the process.
What was impressive is that this is an apolitical 'bill'. That is to say there is no party line to follow. It is a free vote. Listening to the 5 hours of public debate in parliament was basically quite refreshing. Strong views deeply held dealt with respect. I'd forgotten politics could be done this well.
Vote passed with 55 majority.
Only the first hurdle in making it law.
The House of Lords will obstruct it.
Biggest problem is coercion.
Son: "Look Mom, you'll be better off dead."
Daughter: "No."
We should all be taught there is nothing in life that cannot be taken away, and what goes around comes around.
"MPs who swore their oaths to the monarch on religious texts were more likely to vote against the bill."
It's a definitely a step in the right direction.
For me:
"I have no intention of dying. In fact, that will be the last thing I do!"
― Milton H. Erickson
:)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c9830vpp2p0o
Among the 95,000 centenarians in Japan:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Japanese_supercentenarians
Secret might just be they have Denisovan genes and genes from another as yet unidentified ancient human.