Happy Atheist Forum

In tdh26's thread about where our morals come from, one thing just crossed my mind. In literature, movies, TV and real life we seem to like the bad guys more than the good guys. In most cases the good guys are rather boring, while the bad guys bring in the spice. We somehow seem to love people who break the rules. That can for example be bank robbers who dig a tunnel for many weeks and then get away with the money without people getting hurt. In the latest Dark Knight movie we find the Joker character far more interesting than Batman. Robin Hood stole our hearts, because he stole money from the rich and gave it to the poor. In Star Trek NG we have the very interesting Q character, who has no morals at all, etc. etc. etc.

In the mass-media the good guys always seem to win, which is rather unreal and too predictable to my liking. Take for example the "Batman Forever" movie. There we had Two-Face (Tommy Lee Jones) and the Joker (Jim Carrey) putting so much energy and creativity in trying to eliminate Batman that I really felt sorry for these guys that they didn't succeeded. So, not only am I wondering why we like immoral people, but also questions why (especially) Hollywood can't let the bad guys win for a change.

Quote from: "Tom62"In tdh26's thread about where our morals come from, one thing just crossed my mind. In literature, movies, TV and real life we seem to like the bad guys more than the good guys. In most cases the good guys are rather boring, while the bad guys bring in the spice. We somehow seem to love people who break the rules. That can for example be bank robbers who dig a tunnel for many weeks and then get away with the money without people getting hurt. In the latest Dark Knight movie we find the Joker character far more interesting than Batman. Robin Hood stole our hearts, because he stole money from the rich and gave it to the poor. In Star Trek NG we have the very interesting Q character, who has no morals at all, etc. etc. etc.

In the mass-media the good guys always seem to win, which is rather unreal and too predictable to my liking. Take for example the "Batman Forever" movie. There we had Two-Face (Tommy Lee Jones) and the Joker (Jim Carrey) putting so much energy and creativity in trying to eliminate Batman that I really felt sorry for these guys that they didn't succeeded. So, not only am I wondering why we like immoral people, but also questions why (especially) Hollywood can't let the bad guys win for a change.

Go see the Dark Knight. I won't give anything away, but the end may be a pleasant surprise for you.

Q isn't immoral. He's immortal. But seriously, his morals are there, they just are applied differently. Q is an adversary (and a plot device), but not a villan.

On to the subject at hand: why do we like immoral people? They represent our oppressed immoral wishes. Sometimes I want to flip off someone who cuts me off. Sometimes I want to slug a cop who pulls me over for going 1 mph over the speed limit. These are normal impulses that we repress because they're not socially acceptable and are immoral. The impulses are still there, though, and the idea of giving in to those impulses, becoming a person of impulse, is a taboo and it can be quite attractive.

Quote from: "Willravel"

Quote from: "Tom62"In tdh26's thread about where our morals come from, one thing just crossed my mind. In literature, movies, TV and real life we seem to like the bad guys more than the good guys. In most cases the good guys are rather boring, while the bad guys bring in the spice. We somehow seem to love people who break the rules. That can for example be bank robbers who dig a tunnel for many weeks and then get away with the money without people getting hurt. In the latest Dark Knight movie we find the Joker character far more interesting than Batman. Robin Hood stole our hearts, because he stole money from the rich and gave it to the poor. In Star Trek NG we have the very interesting Q character, who has no morals at all, etc. etc. etc.

In the mass-media the good guys always seem to win, which is rather unreal and too predictable to my liking. Take for example the "Batman Forever" movie. There we had Two-Face (Tommy Lee Jones) and the Joker (Jim Carrey) putting so much energy and creativity in trying to eliminate Batman that I really felt sorry for these guys that they didn't succeeded. So, not only am I wondering why we like immoral people, but also questions why (especially) Hollywood can't let the bad guys win for a change.

Go see the Dark Knight. I won't give anything away, but the end may be a pleasant surprise for you.

Q isn't immoral. He's immortal. But seriously, his morals are there, they just are applied differently. Q is an adversary (and a plot device), but not a villan.

On to the subject at hand: why do we like immoral people? They represent our oppressed immoral wishes. Sometimes I want to flip off someone who cuts me off. Sometimes I want to slug a cop who pulls me over for going 1 mph over the speed limit. These are normal impulses that we repress because they're not socially acceptable and are immoral. The impulses are still there, though, and the idea of giving in to those impulses, becoming a person of impulse, is a taboo and it can be quite attractive.

I also recommend 3:10 to Yuma and No Country For Old Men, if you're itching for the "bad guys".

Quote from: "Willravel"Sometimes I want to slug a cop who pulls me over for going 1 mph over the speed limit. These are normal impulses that we repress because they're not socially acceptable and are immoral. The impulses are still there, though, and the idea of giving in to those impulses, becoming a person of impulse, is a taboo and it can be quite attractive.

Please, Will, don't give in to that one. The board wouldn't be the same without you! I'm sure there's a nice video game that lets you do it somewhere!

@Willravel - I'd love to see The Dark Knight since I heard so many raving reviews about it. A pity that I have to wait another month, because it won't come out here until the end of august. Q in Star Trek NG seems to do just what he wants, without being hampered by morals. He may indeed have his own set of morals (or that of the Q-Continuum), but what makes him interesting is that the crew on the Enterprise finds him immoral. In any case,  it just proves to me that absolute morals don't exist. What is wrong for one person, doesn't have to be necessary wrong for another. Anyway I like the idea that there is a rebel in us, who wants to come out once in awhile. But, please don't shoot that cop who gives you a speeding ticket (you may miss   ).

@MrQ I haven't seen "3:10 to Yuma" (thanks for the tip), but I really loved "No Country For Old Men". Can't say that the killer was really sympathetic though, so as far as I'm concerned a happy ending would have suited me as well. But like I said before, I love surprise endings.

Quote from: "McQ"

Quote from: "Willravel"Sometimes I want to slug a cop who pulls me over for going 1 mph over the speed limit. These are normal impulses that we repress because they're not socially acceptable and are immoral. The impulses are still there, though, and the idea of giving in to those impulses, becoming a person of impulse, is a taboo and it can be quite attractive.

Please, Will, don't give in to that one. The board wouldn't be the same without you! I'm sure there's a nice video game that lets you do it somewhere!

GTA IV for one :-D

Tom62, I thought you were tdh26 at first glance. Coincidentially, you both have the numbers 2 and 6 at the end of your three letter names and they both start with the letter "t".

Quote from: "Martian"Tom62, I thought you were tdh26 at first glance. Coincidentially, you both have the numbers 2 and 6 at the end of your three letter names and they both start with the letter "t".

Don't worry, we are not the same person. I am an honest to God atheist . Tom is my real first name and the 62 at my end stands for the year of my birth.  On the internet I'm further known as tvb62, tomvb62 or tomvb, but beware if you Google for those names you'll find many people there who are not me either. This may lead to another interesting moral discussion here about employers who query the internet for information about their future employees and mistaken identities.

I think another reason why we love dark characters in movies and true crime is so popular is because we want to understand the person.To see what makes him/her tick.

Quote from: "Tom62"I am an honest to God atheist :D

In most cases, I just feel bad for the villan character but don't necessarily like him/her.

I think one of the main reasons we are attracted to bad guys is due to the allure of acting without fear of consequence. One of the reasons we do the perceived "right" thing is due to the stress of cognitive dissonance - thoughts around guilt, fear etc. Baddies get to be free of this internal pressure and that just looks fun!

When it comes to movies, books and other fictious media, I'm usually on the bad guy's side because the bad guys manage to appeal to my idea of cool a lot more than the good ones. However, they do tend to screw up in most ridiculous ways to provide the protagonist with his victory and the audience with their happy ending  :D