Happy Atheist Forum

What part of Jesus' life, death, or resurrection actually saves you?

Let me explain. Christians love to say that Jesus died for your sins, but they never go into any detail on what that means. An argument like that must explain HOW you are saved by Jesus' actions or death.

So what actions were taken, and by whom, to save mankind? Jesus dies, is resurrected, and then what? What happened next, to save man? What was the mechanism of salvation?

Was it God? Was it Jesus? What did they do? Did they wave a magic wand? Did they speak the magic words? Something had to happen, after all, a guy dying and living again has nothing to do with saving mankind. So there was obviously some decision made, some action taken, to actually DO the saving.

So what was it?

And if a Christian sees this and replies to it, I have a question too:

What exactly is it that we need salvation from?

Your response: "God works in mysterious ways."

Can't expect a logical answer from a group of people who believe that an undead, magical carpenter can save their eternal souls.  

Quote from: "DeathOfReligion"What part of Jesus' life, death, or resurrection actually saves you?

Let me explain. Christians love to say that Jesus died for your sins, but they never go into any detail on what that means. An argument like that must explain HOW you are saved by Jesus' actions or death.

So what actions were taken, and by whom, to save mankind? Jesus dies, is resurrected, and then what? What happened next, to save man? What was the mechanism of salvation?

Was it God? Was it Jesus? What did they do? Did they wave a magic wand? Did they speak the magic words? Something had to happen, after all, a guy dying and living again has nothing to do with saving mankind. So there was obviously some decision made, some action taken, to actually DO the saving.

So what was it?

it doesn't matter really, just more advertising for the big guy.

hey important shit happens in heaven. your soul is too stupid to know what is really going on while you are on earth. so just believe this crap until you get heaven-smarts and you'll then know the real deal.

do bad-bad things, go to bad place...do good-good things, go to good place. what the hell else do you want to know?

HEY DOR! Did you just come over from that slimy corporate "Hearst"ory Channel board?

You can't even say "HEARST" there without being AutoPopped. WR lives on - Creator God of Yellow Journalism BOW I SAY!

You should be so lucky as to find a Fundy that can even read what you have written here; but if you do, by golly, I want to play, too.

Remember to laugh here, as well as Get Serious.

---------------------------------------------------------

The mechanism is God did It, as always, end of story. Cut and Paste, Mix and Match as in Creator/Intelligent Designer/Sudden Emergence.

Good line in "Sister Mary Tells All" - when confronted with your Salvation Scenario, a little girl politely asks -

"But - why didn't God just forgive everybody?"  

Quote from: "Promethium147"HEY DOR! Did you just come over from that slimy corporate "Hearst"ory Channel board?

You can't even say "HEARST" there without being AutoPopped. WR lives on - Creator God of Yellow Journalism BOW I SAY!

You should be so lucky as to find a Fundy that can even read what you have written here; but if you do, by golly, I want to play, too.

Remember to laugh here, as well as Get Serious.

---------------------------------------------------------

The mechanism is God did It, as always, end of story. Cut and Paste, Mix and Match as in Creator/Intelligent Designer/Sudden Emergence.

Good line in "Sister Mary Tells All" - when confronted with your Salvation Scenario, a little girl politely asks -

"But - why didn't God just forgive everybody?"  

That was what I was getting at. Since a decision had to be made to save mankind after Jesus dies or whatever, there was always the opportunity to do just that. Save everybody.

And there is no autopopping at HOC, but there are extremely mysterious and prolific poofer stealth mods. They will poof for any reason or no reason at all. And not just the post they consider offensive. But ALL the posts in line of succession after yours.

That being said, I still like it there. I've already found that here, when all theist opinions are squelched by the very forum rules, let alone the 99% majority of atheist posters, it doesn't make for as lively a discussion.

Quote from: "DeathOfReligion"What part of Jesus' life, death, or resurrection actually saves you?

So what actions were taken, and by whom, to save mankind? Jesus dies, is resurrected, and then what? What happened next, to save man? What was the mechanism of salvation?

So what was it?

Well, I can only say what I was taught: Basically man is sinful and therefore unworthy to be in the presence of God. It is impossible to get to heaven because of this. We all deserve eternal damnation in hell. But since God loves us so much, He sent His Son to die for our sins so we would be saved from hell. That basically means that all the wrath of God (which is pretty much scarier than hell) was put onto Jesus when He was on the cross so we were saved from it. Hence "Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?" -which means "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"-~Mark 15:33.

You can't be near God when you have sin. You always have sin if you aren't forgiven. You have to be near God (spiritually) to be forgiven, but you can't because you are sinful (and so on) Because Jesus died on the cross, we can now all be forgiven. He took God's wrath for us so now we can approach God (spiritually) and ask for forgiveness.

Bleh, there's more but it gives me a headache.

Quote from: "Asmodean"And if a Christian sees this and replies to it, I have a question too:

What exactly is it that we need salvation from?

I kind of tackled this one in the other post but: We are being saved from eternal damnation, eternal separation from God (which is a very horrible and terrifying thing in the Christian perspective). We are also being saved from God Himself. As I mentioned above, God's wrath is crazy scary and we are saved from is through Jesus. We are also being saved from ourselves. Our lives are completely pointless and meaningless without Him. His love is the greatest thing that can happen to us.

So we need salvation from eternal damnation (hell), God's wrath, and ourselves.

Bleh!

Quote from: "susangail"I kind of tackled this one in the other post but: We are being saved from eternal damnation,

Which implies what, exactly..?

Quote from: "susangail"eternal separation from God (which is a very horrible and terrifying thing in the Christian perspective).

Separation from god... So how is it different from what we have down here on Earth, I wonder..?  :(

Quote from: "susangail"We are also being saved from ourselves. Our lives are completely pointless and meaningless without Him. His love is the greatest thing that can happen to us.

Being saved from ourselves I can understand, still, I, for one, do not need nor want that "salvation"

... ... Is THAT what they are trying to save me from? LOL! And here I was, expecting spectacular meteor rains and earth quakes and tsunamis and who-knows-what-else and all I get is being saved from a zombie while at the same time being saved from separation from His long-since-rotten hide..? Boo...  :beer:

Quote from: "Asmodean"

Quote from: "susangail"I kind of tackled this one in the other post but: We are being saved from eternal damnation,

Which implies what, exactly..?

Hell... Jesus died so we don't have to go to hell. Without God we're doomed!

Quote from: "Asmodean"

Quote from: "susangail"eternal separation from God (which is a very horrible and terrifying thing in the Christian perspective).

Separation from god... So how is it different from what we have down here on Earth, I wonder..?  :(  

Haha, no wait! That was prophecy. We had to crucify Him to be saved.

Quote from: "Asmodean"... ... Is THAT what they are trying to save me from? LOL! And here I was, expecting spectacular meteor rains and earth quakes and tsunamis and who-knows-what-else and all I get is being saved from a zombie while at the same time being saved from separation from His long-since-rotten hide..? Boo...  :D

Quote from: "susangail"Aww sorry to disappoint.


 :(

 

We don't need YOUR puny camera - we've got Pat Robertsons...

Pat collected many millions in tithes to construct a modern, state-of-the-art TV studio for the sole purpose of - capturing and covering the Second Coming of Christ.

Although the studio was built and brought online, Pat decided to divert its use to other purposes while we're waiting.

Did you know - Pat Robertson, personally, is the third largest cable TV provider on Earth?

Look him up on Wikipedia, do a little research - the sonofabitch owns tens of thousands of black slaves, forced labor, in Africa - mining Blood Diamonds! It's all right out there, folks. Can't prosecute him, he doesn't buy politicians - he builds them from scratch!

---------------------------------------------------------

Now about that original post - you are asking for Mechanisms, and that is the problem, isn't it? You THINK mechanistically, in terms of cause and effect, and naturalistic rules of order.

Pat sez - CUT THAT OUT!

The Bible is a carefully selected set of a few texts among thousands that were considered by the Council of Nicea. The appear to have been selected to -

1) cover many moral issues (and provide a simple, consistent model of behavior to the healots.)
2) contradict themselves such that any behavior whatsoever by authority  may find some scriptural "justification."

YOUR problem, DOR, is that you are reading the WHOLE thing, not your Readings Selected by Authority - and trying to reconcile the contradictions - then you go further, and start ASKING QUESTIONS. You're gonna find big trouble, Son. Bully for you.

The Bible is purest Authoritarianism, Tool of the Oppressor - do as I say, not as I do, never question, never think - or die, die, die... etc., etc.

You need the Afterlife thing because - it is immediately evident to all of us that evil goes largely unpunished, and Justice is largely unavailable in this world, so - displace it to the next world, lest you go mad by continual offense to your Sense of Equity, the most basic motivating emotional complex in any social species - including social insects. It is essential to Societies of any sort, the core social self-regulating "mechanism".

With the offer of Suspended Justice via deferral to an afterlife, Authority may commit any crime. Without it - they hang.

Your only role in this scheme is Total Submission. If you fail in this, you not only die - you die again and again, most horribly, forever n' ever.

Here's what you need to do - stop Thinking. The best method is - start Feeling. After all, FEAR is the most basic emotion, and Joy is only life with a lack of FEAR. There is a large, basic structure in the brain for FEAR - the Amygdala. It has its own dedicated, redundant neural paths from the senses such that you feel FEAR and respond much more quickly than you may Think in the Higher Cortex. Your Amygdala is the same as a salt-water crocodile's, almost indistinguishable - but there is no isolated Joy mechanism, it is diffuse in the Higher Cortex - which the Crocodile, a reptile, lacks completely.

You need to become a Slithering Reptile to play. Sadly, you were not "made" that way - and you must fix it yourself, for after all, you know full well (in that pesky Higher Cortex) that there just aren't enough Cops to stop you. You must build your own Cop in your Head.

Here's some tips -

1) Chant (something such as "Washed in the Blood of the Lamb" really works. Of course, this one might leave you Less than what you might now consider Clean.)
2) Pray (Internal Chanting, as Chanting can interfere with you Work. Get good at it, and you can Chant constantly while toting your barge, or lifting your bale. Integral Calculus, however, will still be quite impossible.)
3) Smile (The internal mental state affects the facial muscles - and conversely, the facial muscles affect the internal mental state, more effectively and more easily than any other muscle group. People will think you are Happy, they will Feel Happier, they will Smile, you will think they are Happy, you will Smile, it will just go 'round and 'round, and all will Feel Happy - but of course, they won't know why. Very, very effective indeed.)

With this, you can Feel Happy Now, and none of the endless intellectual labors of a true education will be required - with this, you may Understand, and from this position, mock those annoying EggHeads - justt not very articulately, of course.

Get to it, and let me know how it goes.

Quote from: "Asmodean"And if a Christian sees this and replies to it, I have a question too:

What exactly is it that we need salvation from?

From Eve eating the apple after God told her no.That she gave us knowledge is bad and defied God's wishes.From all of the non christian god worshippers.From pretty much anything that wasn't "good" in gods eyes.


"Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother- in-law...."  Matthew 10:34

Wow Jesus sounds like such a great guy huh

Quote from: "Promethium147"We don't need YOUR puny camera - we've got Pat Robertsons...

I'll bet my camera is at least as big. I only have one though, not a studio full of 'em. BUT if that studio gets a few of my spectacular meteors up it's behind, MY camera will påossibly still be alive :-D

Quote from: "afreethinker30"

Quote from: "Asmodean"And if a Christian sees this and replies to it, I have a question too:

What exactly is it that we need salvation from?

From Eve eating the apple after God told her no.

but
but
god is all knowing
he knew she would eat the damn thing
so he knew we would need "salvation"
so guys I think we've been screwed all along!

The reason people in ancient times immediately understood the Christian's explanation about Jesus's sacrifice for our salvation, and the reason it sounds so counter-intuitive and goofy to us, is because our society no longer has any concept of "blood atonement."

In those days, people literally believed not only that the guilty should be punished, but that blood literally had to be spilled to fix certain crimes or sins. The actual blood was significant; someone had to suffer for the crime. So when Christ "died for our sins," he was giving his blood for the atonement. Someone's blood had to be spilled, and Jesus offered his own.


Today we don't believe in this barbarian concept of blood atonement, so the crucifixion of Jesus as salvation for our sins makes no sense.

Quote from: "Loffler"Today we don't believe in this barbarian concept of blood atonement, so the crucifixion of Jesus as salvation for our sins makes no sense.

Not to mention that the concept of sin makes no sense either. There are actions and consequences. That's all there is to it.

Quote from: "Loffler"The reason people in ancient times immediately understood the Christian's explanation about Jesus's sacrifice for our salvation, and the reason it sounds so counter-intuitive and goofy to us, is because our society no longer has any concept of "blood atonement."

In those days, people literally believed not only that the guilty should be punished, but that blood literally had to be spilled to fix certain crimes or sins. The actual blood was significant; someone had to suffer for the crime. So when Christ "died for our sins," he was giving his blood for the atonement. Someone's blood had to be spilled, and Jesus offered his own.


Today we don't believe in this barbarian concept of blood atonement, so the crucifixion of Jesus as salvation for our sins makes no sense.

I get the concept, and I understand that this is sometimes also Christians' explanation for the question I posed. Thank you for offering it.

But I was leading anyone who cared to answer to the obvious conclusion, as I have already stated:

Whatever action needed to be taken to save mankind, required a conscious decision by god. And since that was the case, he could have chosen to save anyone and everyone. Not just the believers. And not just against pain of hell. But he could have just done it. Forgive everyone. And not just the tiny exclusive group, but everyone throughout all time.

Anyone who has ever thought about this for even one second should realize how ridiculous it is to create a species which will need saving from a threat you yourself created, then to only save those who meet arbitrary conditions you also create. Choosing NOT to save them when you have the power to, is evil, in the purest sense.

You're right. The existence of "rules" for salvation that Jesus has to meet contradicts God's omnipotence. When you ask believers this, they typically say, "Heh, the Lord works in mysterious ways." Meaning all explanation they've given you up to this point has been pointless, since the Lord is mysterious anyway.

QuoteWhat part of Jesus' life, death, or resurrection actually saves you?

Let me explain. Christians love to say that Jesus died for your sins, but they never go into any detail on what that means. An argument like that must explain HOW you are saved by Jesus' actions or death.

So what actions were taken, and by whom, to save mankind? Jesus dies, is resurrected, and then what? What happened next, to save man? What was the mechanism of salvation?

Was it God? Was it Jesus? What did they do? Did they wave a magic wand? Did they speak the magic words? Something had to happen, after all, a guy dying and living again has nothing to do with saving mankind. So there was obviously some decision made, some action taken, to actually DO the saving.

So what was it?

God's sense of justice was satisfied by Jesus' death.

Quote from: "Voter"God's sense of justice was satisfied by Jesus' death.

What a weird sense of "justice" it has...  

One time I was pissed about all the people who got killed in Darfur. But then my cousin died, and my sense of justice was appeased.

Quote from: "Asmodean"

Quote from: "Voter"God's sense of justice was satisfied by Jesus' death.

What a weird sense of "justice" it has...  

Some think so, some don't. One human society's sense of justice sometimes seems weird to other cultures. Heck, in America, an act can be consensual sex in one place, but statutory rape a mile away across the state line. That seems weird to many people.

Hey - let's talk Justice!

Sense of Equity is a basic emotional (i.e., Instinctual) complex in all social animals - including social insects.

It is painfully apparent in capuchin monkeys, which fit in the palm of the hand. Abuse a monkey's sense of equity, and he attacks - but more importantly, all other monkeys who see the situation attack too. We call it Society. The offender is excluded, attacked, killed or banished (ignored) - thrust from society and its benefits - which, for a Social Animal, is death.

This is where the notion of Justice arises - it is perfectly essential to society - without Justice (satisfaction of Sense of Equity), we all kill, we all die.

But this sense can be severely twisted with deferral of Justice into an Afterlife.

And so - the belief in an Afterlife kills all of us, YEEHAW!    

Quote from: "Voter"

Quote from: "Asmodean"

Quote from: "Voter"God's sense of justice was satisfied by Jesus' death.

What a weird sense of "justice" it has...  

Some think so, some don't. One human society's sense of justice sometimes seems weird to other cultures. Heck, in America, an act can be consensual sex in one place, but statutory rape a mile away across the state line. That seems weird to many people.

And by this you mean the citizens of America have trouble relating to the values of the citizens of Heaven?

QuoteAnd by this you mean the citizens of America have trouble relating to the values of the citizens of Heaven?

No, by this I mean that people sometimes have trouble relating to each other's senses of justice.  As God made us in his image, it's not surprising that some people can relate to his sense of justice, and some can't.

Quote from: "Voter"

QuoteAnd by this you mean the citizens of America have trouble relating to the values of the citizens of Heaven?

No, by this I mean that people sometimes have trouble relating to each other's senses of justice.  As God made us in his image, it's not surprising that some people can relate to his sense of justice, and some can't.

If we're in his image, shouldn't we all be able to relate to his sense of justice?

QuoteWhatever action needed to be taken to save mankind, required a conscious decision by god. And since that was the case, he could have chosen to save anyone and everyone. Not just the believers. And not just against pain of hell. But he could have just done it. Forgive everyone. And not just the tiny exclusive group, but everyone throughout all time.

Anyone who has ever thought about this for even one second should realize how ridiculous it is to create a species which will need saving from a threat you yourself created, then to only save those who meet arbitrary conditions you also create. Choosing NOT to save them when you have the power to, is evil, in the purest sense.

By your own logic, you are choosing not to forgive God, and so you too are evil.

However, your logic doesn't agree to common experience. Tell a parent whose child was murdered that they can simply make a conscious decision to forgive the murderer and that's that.

In the news yesterday was the story of one of the Manson murderers. She has brain cancer and a short time to live. She and her family want her released from prison. Family members of her victims testified that they thought it would be unjust to release her, even though she can barely move and so poses no threat to society. Apparently they are not able to simply decide to forgive.

Quote from: "Loffler"

Quote from: "Voter"

QuoteAnd by this you mean the citizens of America have trouble relating to the values of the citizens of Heaven?

No, by this I mean that people sometimes have trouble relating to each other's senses of justice.  As God made us in his image, it's not surprising that some people can relate to his sense of justice, and some can't.

If we're in his image, shouldn't we all be able to relate to his sense of justice?

We're in his image, but fallen, so we can relate in part. I'm guessing you agree that murder and stealing are wrong, so you relate in part.

But doesn't this sorta go against some of the "free will" arguments that Believers use to say how God is a great and good?  If you are born already damned then you really weren't given much of a chance to begin with.  

If I don't believe now, but I believe in the future then would I still go to hell?  If I don't go to hell, what would be the punishment for those fellow mortals, those other beleivers, who judged me as a sinner or unfit to stand in God's grace?

This is to “Voter”

I do not quite understand your concepts of “justice” or “satisfaction” when trying to apply religious concepts to law.

In Judeo-Christian beliefs all mankind is born with Original Sin due to Adam’s downfall in Eden â€" an action an omnipresent, omniscient, loving God could have prevented beforehand by not creating evil, sin, temptation (etc.) in the first place.
Despite having destroyed wicked and immoral mankind with a world-wide flood, having man repopulate the world again, and giving mankind a set of commandments to live by, God is still not pleased with the Free Will choices mankind is allowed to make. And, in Christian beliefs, to save mankind God sends a mortal savior, kills him, resurrects him, and uses him as the only true path to eternal salvation. (I know this is an abridged version of beliefs, but it is the core.)
The simple question is why wasn't mankind made perfect to start without evil/sin/temptation ever introduced? The free will argument doesn't fly.

So, “God's sense of justice was satisfied by Jesus' death.”

Justice: n. 1. The quality of being just; fairness. 2. a. The principle of moral rightness; equity. b. Conformity to moral rightness in action or attitude; righteousness. 3. a. The upholding of what is just, especially fair treatment and due reward in accordance with honor, standards, or law. b. Law: The administration and procedure of law. 4. Conformity to truth, fact, or sound reason.
Satisfy: v.tr. 1. To gratify the need, desire, or expectation of. 2. To fulfill (a need or desire). 3. a. To free from doubt or question; assure. b. To get rid of (a doubt or question); dispel. 4. a. To discharge (a debt or obligation, for example) in full. b. To discharge an obligation to (a creditor). 5. To conform to the requirements of (a standard or rule); be sufficient to (an end). 6. To make reparation for; redress.

With these beliefs and the definitions from the American Heritage Dictionary, 4th ed., it would appear that God, if he exists, is not what he’s purported to be: not omnipotent, not omniscient, not omnipresent, far from a loving being, and someone/thing with a perverted sense of humor along with any other humane qualities.
If God made us in his own image, then don’t you think there would have been just a little foresight in conformity so that there wouldn’t be such variation? We would have all the same values, the same ideals, the same, well, everything. But we don’t.

You mix up “law” with “justice”. They are not the same. Law is “a rule of conduct or procedure established by custom, agreement, or authority” (and by some definitions also the Mosaic scripture). In America, religious authority, no matter how much desired by fundamentalists, does not establish law or justice. In America, we create Law by the will of the people, even though legislative boundaries might be only a mile apart. Consent of the governed is an American ideal for our laws, our justice, our existence; and, of course, it might seem “weird” to people who don’t have the same freedom.

The last point, about the Manson murderer with terminal brain cancer â€" tough _________. (fill in the blank accordingly) Forgiveness is not in the law. The law nor justice does not forgive. Save that for your moralists, religious or no. This woman took part in gruesome murders of innocent people and an unborn child. If you are not familiar with the Sharon Tate Murders, please check into it for your own edification.
You say, “Family members of her victims testified that they thought it would be unjust to release her, even though she can barely move and so poses no threat to society. Apparently they are not able to simply decide to forgive.”
Yes, it would be unjust to release her regardless of her “posing no threat to society”.  As far as finding forgiveness â€" neither would I. There is no way I could find a way to excuse for a fault or an offense; to pardon; to renounce anger or resentment against someone who committed crimes like these.

Quote from: "Voter"

Quote from: "Loffler"

Quote from: "Voter"No, by this I mean that people sometimes have trouble relating to each other's senses of justice.  As God made us in his image, it's not surprising that some people can relate to his sense of justice, and some can't.

If we're in his image, shouldn't we all be able to relate to his sense of justice?

We're in his image, but fallen, so we can relate in part. I'm guessing you agree that murder and stealing are wrong, so you relate in part.

All I can know for sure is that I relate in part to whoever wrote the 10 Commandments. And those (along with the one about lying) are probably the 3 commandments which require the least explanation, since they're based on an obvious reciprocity. Nobody wanted to be killed, stolen from, or lied to. Those are more accurately called "The Duh Commandments."

Incidentally, they're also the commandments most often cited when attempting to demonstrate God as the source of morality.

Good Stuff!

But - forgiveness is not available from God, or anyone else, until sincere repentance is DEMONSTRATED - by actions. FundieGod has not yet repented.

To forgive without penitence is EVIL! It encourages the Evil to do Evil!

Revenge is good - the US supreme court sez that revenge is about 30% of the impetus for punishment, and it is Good. I tend to agree with them - for once.

Justice is not a Department, though. It must reside in each of us, and each must act upon it. I take revenge on another because -

1) If he hurts me, he is likely to have hurt others before.
2) If he hurts me and gets away with it, he is more likely to hurt others in future.
3) My revenge may seem disproportionate to my hurt, but it is not designed around my own hurt - it is designed to accommodate all previous hurts, and deter future hurts.

Thus, since the law can't catch everyone, perps are punished in disproportion to their crimes, and are used as examples to others. The likelihood of being caught is low, but if caught, the punishment is vastly disproportionate to my profit from the crime. If I steal, merely making me return what I have stolen won't stop me from stealing again.

We do this individually, and we should. It is only natural - and nature knows what it's doing here.

Revenge is a Social Duty, I would assert.

Revenge is mine, sayeth the Lord. This means several things; 1) the Lord has all Authority, 2) the Lord will get to it eventually, so - don't worry, and of course - 3) do as Lord sez, not as Lord does.

But I am my own Lord, and none other shall ever be. Therefore, revenge is mine. Doing it appropriately is called Art of Revenge.    

Quote from: "Smallville"The simple question is why wasn't mankind made perfect to start without evil/sin/temptation ever introduced? The free will argument doesn't fly.

Perfect love (which God has for us) demands we have a Free Will. Love cannot be compeled from someone, it has to be given freely, thus we can love him or deny him. It's our choice. Adam and Eve chose to disobey him and fell from grace but it was their choice!
They were created perfect. Evil/sin is the absence of God. Similar to a dark room is the absence of light. Sin is removing ourselves from his grace (light).

Quote from: "tdh26"

Quote from: "Smallville"The simple question is why wasn't mankind made perfect to start without evil/sin/temptation ever introduced? The free will argument doesn't fly.

Perfect love (which God has for us) demands we have a Free Will. Love cannot be compeled from someone, it has to be given freely, thus we can love him or deny him. It's our choice. Adam and Eve chose to disobey him and fell from grace but it was their choice!

That was Adam and Eve's free will affecting ours. That hardly seems fair, and hardly seems like free will at all.

QuoteThey were created perfect. Evil/sin is the absence of God. Similar to a dark room is the absence of light. Sin is removing ourselves from his grace (light).

But we don't really have a choice. If we turn God down we go to hell. That's no choice at all. That's the choice a mugging victim has with a gun to his head.

Quote from: "tdh26"

Quote from: "Smallville"The simple question is why wasn't mankind made perfect to start without evil/sin/temptation ever introduced? The free will argument doesn't fly.

Perfect love (which God has for us) demands we have a Free Will. Love cannot be compeled from someone, it has to be given freely, thus we can love him or deny him. It's our choice. Adam and Eve chose to disobey him and fell from grace but it was their choice!
They were created perfect. Evil/sin is the absence of God. Similar to a dark room is the absence of light. Sin is removing ourselves from his grace (light).

The concept of Free Will as a "choice" from an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient loving and protective God is a crock. Either God controls everything, is everywhere to keep an eye even upon the smallest sparrow, with total knowledge past, present, and future in a kind and loving manner with our best interests at heart or he ain't there.
Why would such a god allow us to sin? Oh, yeah, the circular argument of "Free Will".
I can buy free will but not the other. It doesn't cut the mustard.

Why should we, the descendants of Adam and Eve, be punished for their sins? There is no definitive answer that could justify punishing the children for the sins of the father.

The argument of evil/sin being the absence of God is another comparative fallacy. If God is omnipresent, how could he be absent?

Quote from: "Smallville"This is to “Voter”

I do not quite understand your concepts of “justice” or “satisfaction” when trying to apply religious concepts to law.

In Judeo-Christian beliefs all mankind is born with Original Sin due to Adam’s downfall in Eden â€" an action an omnipresent, omniscient, loving God could have prevented beforehand by not creating evil, sin, temptation (etc.) in the first place.
Despite having destroyed wicked and immoral mankind with a world-wide flood, having man repopulate the world again, and giving mankind a set of commandments to live by, God is still not pleased with the Free Will choices mankind is allowed to make. And, in Christian beliefs, to save mankind God sends a mortal savior, kills him, resurrects him, and uses him as the only true path to eternal salvation. (I know this is an abridged version of beliefs, but it is the core.)
The simple question is why wasn't mankind made perfect to start without evil/sin/temptation ever introduced? The free will argument doesn't fly.

There's a simple answer, but the free will discussion is unnecessary in this thread. Feel free to start a new thread with the above if you like.

QuoteSo, “God's sense of justice was satisfied by Jesus' death.”

Justice: n. 1. The quality of being just; fairness. 2. a. The principle of moral rightness; equity. b. Conformity to moral rightness in action or attitude; righteousness. 3. a. The upholding of what is just, especially fair treatment and due reward in accordance with honor, standards, or law. b. Law: The administration and procedure of law. 4. Conformity to truth, fact, or sound reason.
Satisfy: v.tr. 1. To gratify the need, desire, or expectation of. 2. To fulfill (a need or desire). 3. a. To free from doubt or question; assure. b. To get rid of (a doubt or question); dispel. 4. a. To discharge (a debt or obligation, for example) in full. b. To discharge an obligation to (a creditor). 5. To conform to the requirements of (a standard or rule); be sufficient to (an end). 6. To make reparation for; redress.

Yep, the needs or expectations of God's sense of moral rightness was fulfilled by Christ's death.

QuoteWith these beliefs and the definitions from the American Heritage Dictionary, 4th ed., it would appear that God, if he exists, is not what he’s purported to be: not omnipotent, not omniscient, not omnipresent, far from a loving being, and someone/thing with a perverted sense of humor along with any other humane qualities.
If God made us in his own image, then don’t you think there would have been just a little foresight in conformity so that there wouldn’t be such variation? We would have all the same values, the same ideals, the same, well, everything. But we don’t.

Again, beyond the scope of this thread, but feel free to start another.

QuoteYou mix up “law” with “justice”. They are not the same. Law is “a rule of conduct or procedure established by custom, agreement, or authority” (and by some definitions also the Mosaic scripture). In America, religious authority, no matter how much desired by fundamentalists, does not establish law or justice. In America, we create Law by the will of the people, even though legislative boundaries might be only a mile apart. Consent of the governed is an American ideal for our laws, our justice, our existence; and, of course, it might seem “weird” to people who don’t have the same freedom.

Your own definition of justice includes, "The upholding of what is just, especially fair treatment and due reward in accordance with ... law." I'm not improperly mixing them up, they are interconnected.

QuoteThe last point, about the Manson murderer with terminal brain cancer â€" tough _________. (fill in the blank accordingly) Forgiveness is not in the law. The law nor justice does not forgive. Save that for your moralists, religious or no. This woman took part in gruesome murders of innocent people and an unborn child. If you are not familiar with the Sharon Tate Murders, please check into it for your own edification.
You say, “Family members of her victims testified that they thought it would be unjust to release her, even though she can barely move and so poses no threat to society. Apparently they are not able to simply decide to forgive.”
Yes, it would be unjust to release her regardless of her “posing no threat to society”.  As far as finding forgiveness â€" neither would I. There is no way I could find a way to excuse for a fault or an offense; to pardon; to renounce anger or resentment against someone who committed crimes like these.

I agree. We each have a sense of justice that we cannot simply change by conscious decision. Same with God.

Quote from: "Smallville"Why should we, the descendants of Adam and Eve, be punished for their sins? There is no definitive answer that could justify punishing the children for the sins of the father.

My sin affects more than just me. If I stub my toe, does it not affect my hand? If you were say, the son of Charles Manson, would you not be impuned to some part the chastisement of your father? It may not be fair but it's the reality of things. I could go on but my other examples are much longer.

Quote from: "Smallville"The argument of evil/sin being the absence of God is another comparative fallacy. If God is omnipresent, how could he be absent?

God works in mysterious ways!
I had to through that one in. It's just funny! That's like, can God make a stone so big he can't lift it?
How can I, with a finite mind, fathom the mind of an infinite God? Nor could you. But I can reason His existance.

Quote from: "Loffler"But we don't really have a choice. If we turn God down we go to hell. That's no choice at all. That's the choice a mugging victim has with a gun to his head.

Of course that a choice. That's the point. "If we turn God down we go to hell." No ones holding a gun to you head. That's just the consequences .

QuoteNo ones holding a gun to you head. That's just the consequences .

God is hold a gun to my head. In fact He's holding something worse than a gun to my head: eternal torture. He created me and the universe and therefore all the conditions of this situation were His doing.

QuoteBut I can reason His existance.

Then do it.

Quote from: "Loffler"Then do it.

Read my previous posts. My keyboard's running out of ink!

Quote from: "tdh26"

Quote from: "Loffler"Then do it.

Read my previous posts. My keyboard's running out of ink!

You can't possibly believe anything you're written on this thread is evidence of God's existence.

This is a somewhat violent thought experiment, but its not meant to be insulting or demeaning.  I only want to try to put you in a position where you feel some emotional connection to the outcome.

Would it be you be responsible for your own suicide or the murder of your parents, if I were to hold you (a Christian, suicide = bad and murder = bad) over a cliff and say, "Your family will be killed but ONLY if you ask me to pull you out of danger of falling to your death."?

If I understand your reasoning tdh  You WOULD have a free choice in that situation.  

You choose to fall to your death and save your family from some agent of mine killing your family, therefore suicide and hell.

You choose to sacrifice your family for your own life, therefore murder and hell.

And from reading your posts on this thread do you believe that for both decisions you had your free will the entire time?

Well, I just wanted to say - I'm off to start a Free Will thread right now, and Invite you. It should be up within the hour.    

I will call it "Free Will? NAWW!"

Quote from: "Voter"God's sense of justice was satisfied by Jesus' death.

He must be easily satisfied. Jesus is supposed to be alive isn't he? It doesn't count unless he stays in the ground. Oh, I forgot, theists can make up whatever they want to about God and then call it His 'sense of justice.'

I think this merely illuminates the fact - they fear dying more than death, pain and suffering more than freedom.

Once dead, I fully expect a complete redaction of my Death Experience, meself.

How liberating!

I clinically died once, tho, and recall it clearly - simply lovely, warm, soft, AHHH....

So hey, stop worrying, folks.

Quote from: "myleviathan"

Quote from: "Voter"God's sense of justice was satisfied by Jesus' death.

He must be easily satisfied. Jesus is supposed to be alive isn't he? It doesn't count unless he stays in the ground. Oh, I forgot, theists can make up whatever they want to about God and then call it His 'sense of justice.'

What counts is what God says counts. Our opinions of the ease or difficulty is irrelevant.

Quote from: "Voter"

Quote from: "myleviathan"

Quote from: "Voter"God's sense of justice was satisfied by Jesus' death.

He must be easily satisfied. Jesus is supposed to be alive isn't he? It doesn't count unless he stays in the ground. Oh, I forgot, theists can make up whatever they want to about God and then call it His 'sense of justice.'

What counts is what God says counts. Our opinions of the ease or difficulty is irrelevant.

Similarly, our opinions about religion in general are irrelevant. What matter are the facts, and there aren't any.


The Lord works in mysterious ways? No, the mind works in mysterious ways.

Loffler, you constantly provide me with great inspirations.

I realize that my great freedom arises from - constant analysis of my own mind.

Why should we bother to do anything else, first? Everything arises from it - harness the BASE THING, and all good things must follow!

Quote from: "Voter"

Quote from: "myleviathan"

Quote from: "Voter"God's sense of justice was satisfied by Jesus' death.

He must be easily satisfied. Jesus is supposed to be alive isn't he? It doesn't count unless he stays in the ground. Oh, I forgot, theists can make up whatever they want to about God and then call it His 'sense of justice.'

What counts is what God says counts. Our opinions of the ease or difficulty is irrelevant.

But think about it for a moment. Jesus was supposed to be the sacrificial lamb, right? To atone for the eternal consequence for sin? But he was only dead for three days? If Jesus comes back to life how can that be considered a sacrifice in any way?

Quote from: "Promethium147"Loffler, you constantly provide me with great inspirations.

I realize that my great freedom arises from - constant analysis of my own mind.

Why should we bother to do anything else, first? Everything arises from it - harness the BASE THING, and all good things must follow!

You seem to exist in a constant state of epiphany.

But consider this: someone who is very stupid would not experience this fascination with their own thoughts, nor would someone who is very intelligent. Rather, this state of constant amazement arises from knowledge/intelligence inflation -- namely, someone who is rapidly ascending from a state of less knowledge or intelligence to a state of more of it.

You seem to exist in a constant state of epiphany.

Of course, it is in Fits and Starts, but it is RELATIVELY constant - more constant than most. Is this Bad? I call it - self-education. All education proceeds from a motivation - desire to learn. You can't get education without it.

But consider this: someone who is very stupid would not experience this fascination with their own thoughts, nor would someone who is very intelligent.

Huh? Are not the very, very stupid fascinated with their own thoughts - Fundies? Do they not discard the clear, cogent, useful thoughts of others?

If very intelligent, do we not realize that - we have very, very few thoughts that are original - we got it all from someone else, and our environment in general. We analyze these thoughts, and build what appears to be new, but it is all construct based upon pieces we were given. Intelligent as I am (my IQ scores, 'frinstance, place me at one in 9 to 11 million "souls"), I realize my thoughts are not my own.

It's absolutely not my fault - definitely nature and nurture. My parents were High Genius (and Juno), my many siblings likewise, my education early, thorough, and unrelenting. We have FOUND THE GENE that does this to us, at least the major one, that makes this so.

I can't claim one iota of credit - only responsibility.

Rather, this state of constant amazement arises from knowledge/intelligence inflation

YEP. Got that right - epiphany is cumulative, and effects exponential. Look around at the exponential rise of Man, and marvel.

I note here that you seem worried about - the possible negative results of too much intellectual pleasure, Ute! And you are abundantly correct in it.

-- namely, someone who is rapidly ascending from a state of less knowledge or intelligence to a state of more of it.

And it is very, very dangerous - but nothing ventured, nothing gained, eh?

The Joy of Learning is Great - but the Joy of Teaching is better.

At this point, I would, from Love, ask you to cohabit with me - but I see you already do, and I don't have to do your laundry!

XOXOXO,

----------------------------------

LUCIFER, the Creator!

Quote from: "myleviathan"But think about it for a moment. Jesus was supposed to be the sacrificial lamb, right? To atone for the eternal consequence for sin? But he was only dead for three days? If Jesus comes back to life how can that be considered a sacrifice in any way?

From dictionary.com:

1. the offering of animal, plant, or human life or of some material possession to a deity, as in propitiation or homage.  
2. the person, animal, or thing so offered.  

No requirement that the thing offered die and stay dead.

Quote from: "Voter"

Quote from: "myleviathan"But think about it for a moment. Jesus was supposed to be the sacrificial lamb, right? To atone for the eternal consequence for sin? But he was only dead for three days? If Jesus comes back to life how can that be considered a sacrifice in any way?

From dictionary.com:

1. the offering of animal, plant, or human life or of some material possession to a deity, as in propitiation or homage.  
2. the person, animal, or thing so offered.  

No requirement that the thing offered die and stay dead.

Definition number 1 says: the offering of animal, plant, or HUMAN LIFE. Jesus didn't sacrifice his life if he rose on the third day. There was no loss, no sacrifice. How can that atone for sin if Jesus didn't even really die? Sounds like the stuff of myth to me...

QuoteDefinition number 1 says: the offering of animal, plant, or HUMAN LIFE. Jesus didn't sacrifice his life if he rose on the third day.

Sure he did. Again, permanence is not a part of the definition.

QuoteThere was no loss, no sacrifice. How can that atone for sin if Jesus didn't even really die? Sounds like the stuff of myth to me...

It can atone for sin if it satisfies God, which it did.

Then it sounds like Jesus tricked sin and death as opposed to defeating it. Since it's still around and all.

Quote from: "myleviathan"Then it sounds like Jesus tricked sin and death as opposed to defeating it. Since it's still around and all.

If you stop reading at the resurrection, I suppose it might seem that way.

Why? Sin and death are very much still a reality. Jesus tricked sin and death by resurrecting. How can the resurrection be considered a success with so much sin still in existence?

Quote from: "myleviathan"Why? Sin and death are very much still a reality. Jesus tricked sin and death by resurrecting. How can the resurrection be considered a success with so much sin still in existence?

If you read on to the end of Revelation, you'll see that sin and death are done away with for the saved.

Quote from: "Voter"

Quote from: "myleviathan"Why? Sin and death are very much still a reality. Jesus tricked sin and death by resurrecting. How can the resurrection be considered a success with so much sin still in existence?

If you read on to the end of Revelation, you'll see that sin and death are done away with for the saved.

So Jesus hasn't even delivered on his promise yet.


Let me paint you a picture:

Cult leader claims to be messiah and the king of the Jews from prophecy. Instead, he gets crucified.

His followers gave up their lives to follow him, so they need a solution. So they change the story: now he came back to life. Turns out he died for our sins! He paid our blood atonement. Now you just have to accept him as your Lord and savior by joining our religion.

Ok, sounds great! So where is he?

Oh, he, uh, ascended into heaven.

So wait, he didn't save the Jews?

Oh, that. Well, see... don't worry, he'll come back.

When?

Soon, before this generation is dead.

Then decades pass and the old men who were promised salvation notice Jesus hasn't come back in their lifetime as promised (here (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/16.html#28) and here (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/23.html#36)). So they ask: "There's still sin and death in the world. Why haven't they disappeared?" This time they're told: "Oh, uh... yeah, that stuff will go away at the end of time."

Quote from: "Voter"

Quote from: "myleviathan"Why? Sin and death are very much still a reality. Jesus tricked sin and death by resurrecting. How can the resurrection be considered a success with so much sin still in existence?

If you read on to the end of Revelation, you'll see that sin and death are done away with for the saved.

I've read the majority of the Bible - several times. I know what's supposed to happen. It just doesn't make sense. I agree with Loffler (surprised about that, aren't you?!). The Biblical authors really left us with a cliff-hanger given that no one, not even Jesus, knows the time and date He's supposed to come back. So for thousands of years Christians have been prepared with their lamp lit on cold nights, prepared for the end times. End times that will never end.

Quote from: "Voter"...
Sure he did. Again, permanence is not a part of the definition.

Wow.. what a loop hole.

I know. You can make up any definition you want when it comes to this stuff. Which makes having an intelligent conversation difficult.

Quote from: "myleviathan"I know. You can make up any definition you want when it comes to this stuff. Which makes having an intelligent conversation difficult.

They like to use intelligent design to continue intelligently designing the logic of their arguments.

Quote from: "Loffler"

Quote from: "myleviathan"I know. You can make up any definition you want when it comes to this stuff. Which makes having an intelligent conversation difficult.

They like to use intelligent design to continue intelligently designing the logic of their arguments.

 :D  :D  

Quote from: "myleviathan"I know. You can make up any definition you want when it comes to this stuff. Which makes having an intelligent conversation difficult.

Tell me about it. I use standard dictionary definitions, but others add their own spin to try to make their point.

Quote from: "myleviathan"I've read the majority of the Bible - several times. I know what's supposed to happen. It just doesn't make sense.

It makes sense to me. If it doesn't to you, then don't believe it. I presume no one's holding a gun to your head.

QuoteI agree with Loffler (surprised about that, aren't you?!). The Biblical authors really left us with a cliff-hanger given that no one, not even Jesus, knows the time and date He's supposed to come back. So for thousands of years Christians have been prepared with their lamp lit on cold nights, prepared for the end times. End times that will never end.

Personally I'm extremely happy it's gone on so long, as I wouldn't have existed otherwise.