Happy Atheist Forum

I remember awhile back talking with my sister about the afterlife, and she told me she believes in reincarnation. She believes it because of the law of conservation of energy, which states that energy cannot be created or destroyed. She says our consciousness or soul must go somewhere when we die. I noticed a small blurb in The God Delusion about that theory, but it didn't explain it for me, but rather just dismissed the idea. Can anyone else explain to me the failed logic in this hypothesis? I'm not a science person at all, but I'd like to have a good answer for her if it comes up again.

Well, the first and most obvious thing here is that we are not made of energy, thus the law of conservation does not apply.

However, if by reincarnation you mean that the components of which we are made have been and will be used by other life forms, then I would have to agree.

That helps a lot. But I just think that her argument would be that our soul is energy or something

We are, in fact, made of matter and energy. Gotta get that corrected first.

But your sister's assumption is that there is an immortal soul, separate from the physical processes that make up the human body. Lots of people who believe this consider "mind" separate from brain, or physical processes as well.

Her assumption is invalid, and that invalidates her whole assertion that our "soul" must go somewhere when we die. Trotting out conservation of energy is fine if you start with a valid hypothesis, rather than with an invalid assertion and conclusion, as she did.

In line with conservation of energy, when you die, everything that you are DOES go somewhere, or somewheres. Heat energy is released (as it is while you live constantly), and then complex chemical reactions occur and continue after you die. Your body decomposes, changing form to many different things, all the while never disrupting the conservation of energy.

You don't need to assume a soul goes anywhere.

Hope this helps.

Quote from: "Chimera"I remember awhile back talking with my sister about the afterlife, and she told me she believes in reincarnation. She believes it because of the law of conservation of energy, which states that energy cannot be created or destroyed.

The "energy" in "energy cannot be created or destroyed" is the energy described in physics. The energy one might use to describe a soul or personality is supernatural and as such is not subject to physical law.

Quote from: "Chimera"She says our consciousness or soul must go somewhere when we die. I noticed a small blurb in The God Delusion about that theory, but it didn't explain it for me, but rather just dismissed the idea. Can anyone else explain to me the failed logic in this hypothesis? I'm not a science person at all, but I'd like to have a good answer for her if it comes up again.

Generally speaking atheists do not believe in the existence of the soul. Consciousness is a bit tricky, as it's definition is entirely subjective. Generally speaking, consciousness is a cognizance or understanding of self. How, I wonder, can an understanding survive after the brain in which it exists ceases to function in death? By my understanding, it cannot.

Quote from: "McQ"We are, in fact, made of matter and energy. Gotta get that corrected first.

I disagree. We do "contain" and utilize energy, but we are not made of it. Everything has energy of some form in it, but I wouldn't call it a "building component"

Quote from: "McQ"But your sister's assumption is that there is an immortal soul, separate from the physical processes that make up the human body. Lots of people who believe this consider "mind" separate from brain, or physical processes as well.

Yup. That's the thing. People just fail to comprehend that "I" is no more than a mass of electric impulses and chemical reactions.

This helps a lot. Thanks everyone.

Isn't a total loss of identity the philosophical equivalent of death anyway, when you think about it? Reincarnating without any memory of your previous life is like waking up from a coma with complete amnesia: for all intents and purposes, it's as if you never were that person, as if the person who lived your entire life up until that point was someone completely different to the person that just woke up. Or a more common example: if you were really drunk last night, and someone tells you what you did but you can't remember it happening at all, do you feel any connection to those events? I find it a little surreal, like hearing about someone else entirely.

So based on this, how is reincarnation any different from dying and never being reborn? Is there some kind of continuity of behaviour that makes one incarnation behave like previous incarnations? If so, what informs this continuity? Even if there is such a thing as a soul, what consolation is it that you behave like a previous incarnation of you, if your current incarnation has no memory of it? Isn't that a bit like someone telling you you're really very similar to a person they know, but that you've never met and know nothing about? If someone tells me that, I don't usually feel any kind of affinity to the person I'm supposed to be like, at least not until I actually meet that person. Reincarnating souls are thus not only a very sketchy way of explaining consciousness, as a consolation for our mortality, they seem redudant. If we lose our memory, we lose a substantial part of who we are.

The truth, courtesy of Occam's razor, known by Eastern thinkers for centuries and now proven by neuroscience, is that there is no singular entity that is "you" or "me". We are a bundle of awareness and memory caused by brain functions. Otherwise, why is it that our identity can be so greatly affected by mental illness or brain damage? What happens to the soul of a person with schizophrenia? I have yet to hear of a convincing answer to this question from dualists. The modern dualist view seems to be that physical bodies are like radios and the soul is like a radio wave, so if the radio is damaged it just means the radio waves aren't coming through as clearly. I'll believe it once someone finds a way of detecting and demonstrating the radio waves.

Quote from: "McQ"We are, in fact, made of matter and energy. Gotta get that corrected first.

wasn't there some obscure scientist who talked about that...gosh what was his name. he wrote some equation..e equals something?

Quote from: "jcm"

Quote from: "McQ"We are, in fact, made of matter and energy. Gotta get that corrected first.

wasn't there some obscure scientist who talked about that...gosh what was his name. he wrote some equation..e equals something?

Yea, I can never remember that guy. Read something about him somewhere. Must not have been very important.

Quote from: "Chimera"I remember awhile back talking with my sister about the afterlife, and she told me she believes in reincarnation. She believes it because of the law of conservation of energy, which states that energy cannot be created or destroyed. She says our consciousness or soul must go somewhere when we die. I noticed a small blurb in The God Delusion about that theory, but it didn't explain it for me, but rather just dismissed the idea. Can anyone else explain to me the failed logic in this hypothesis? I'm not a science person at all, but I'd like to have a good answer for her if it comes up again.

This energy and matter stuff confuses the shit out of me so I'm not going to attempt to tackle that one. The failed logic here seems pretty simple to me (I'm about the fifth to say this in this post but...) Her hypothesis stands on the basis that we have a soul. If you don't believe we do, then the hypothesis is void.

we've sufficiently stated the non existence of the soul, etc. I just wanted to make the other (little) thing clear

E=MC2(squared) means E = Energy, M = Matter, C = Speed of light(square that)

Which in simple english means Energy and matter are the same thing.

Just wanted to make sure that was clear, thank you for your time

Quote from: "McQ"We are, in fact, made of matter and energy. Gotta get that corrected first.

QuoteThis is true - and even more correct is that our cellular matter and chemical composition causes energy. The only reason we can think and move is due to compounds like adenosine triphosphate (ATP), which is the fuel of the cell for both plants and animals. It's necessary for any 'work' that cells perform such as DNA replication, or to help a sperm whip its tail for propulsion. The mitochondria break down sugars taken in from food which releases energy to fuel growth, muscular activity, and brain activity. This process is call glycolysis. It's impossible for me to separate the soul from the matter that causes these processes. How can I live on without the material that makes up my existence?

Quote from: "myleviathan"How can I live on without the material that makes up my existence?

simple...use the following:

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Findependentvisions.org%2Ffichera%2Fmagic%2Fhat-magic-wand.gif&hash=87f8a229a61feb03144b2b060de16ef2db202c6f)

Quote from: "jcm"

Quote from: "myleviathan"How can I live on without the material that makes up my existence?

simple...use the following:

(//Image)

Dare I ask what that cig is made of?  :P )

Quote from: "Asmodean"

Quote from: "jcm"

Quote from: "myleviathan"How can I live on without the material that makes up my existence?

simple...use the following:

(//Image)

Dare I ask what that cig is made of?  :P )

it is a magic wand...but that will work too.

  dude, i'm freakin out!!!!

I was walking yesterday and thinking about this thread again. I imagined myself falling dead into the grass. I imagined what's going on at a cellular level, which is where the really exciting stuff happens anyway. I imagined the energy stored in my dead cells reincarnating to the living cells of fly larvae, worms, birds, catepillars, grass, flowers, or any other immediate living thing that could ingest any left-over energy. As far as energy passing on when your dead, it doesn't go very far. But it goes into other living things that can use it to survive. Just an interesting thought.

Quote from: "myleviathan"I was walking yesterday and thinking about this thread again. I imagined myself falling dead into the grass. I imagined what's going on at a cellular level, which is where the really exciting stuff happens anyway. I imagined the energy stored in my dead cells reincarnating to the living cells of fly larvae, worms, birds, catepillars, grass, flowers, or any other immediate living thing that could ingest any left-over energy. As far as energy passing on when your dead, it doesn't go very far. But it goes into other living things that can use it to survive. Just an interesting thought.

Maybe it would help you not to think of it as reincarnation but as food for thought or thought for food.

Energy transduces, or converts, from one form to another (i.e., mechanical to electrical) but not really in the way you mentioned other than your dead cells providing food to other creatures.

(Generally speaking) Reincarnation or metempsychosis is the supposed rebirth of a particular soul in another human body with, possibly, some remainder of the original soul intact but usually unaware of its previous existence.

Transmigration of the soul is another term, but here the spirit could be transferred to other animate beings including animals and insects.

And, of course, as with anything else religious, there are beaucoup rules governing the transfer and the progression or regression of the soul. The intricacy and poetic beauty involved with the classical Hinduism and Buddhism concepts of reincarnation fascinated me for years until they failed the reality test.

The wishful thinking of people who "believe" in reincarnation is the same wishful thinking they have believing anything else in their religions.

Quote from: "Smallville"Maybe it would help you not to think of it as reincarnation but as food for thought or thought for food.

I know it's not reincarnation in it's traditional sense, but if a soul is composed of some form of energy, and it's able to be sent to another physical body, then reincarnation could be compared to what actually happens as energy in it's chemical form (Adenosine tri-phosphate, glucose) is transferred from a dead body to living creatures.  Living creatures feed on the fat, starch, sugars and proteins of a dead body, and the chemical energy stored in those substances is transferred to them. Much like the idea of reincarnation, only it's not a soul that gets transferred to one physical body, but chemical energy to many physical bodies. Just fun to think about, really.

Quote from: "Smallville"Energy transduces, or converts, from one form to another (i.e., mechanical to electrical) but not really in the way you mentioned other than your dead cells providing food to other creatures.

In this case the energy remains in it's chemical form. I know it's not a 'soul', but it's still a fun thought.

QuoteE=MC2(squared) means E = Energy, M = Matter, C = Speed of light(square that)

Which in simple english means Energy and matter are the same thing.

Just wanted to make sure that was clear, thank you for your time

more precisley it states that the closer we come to the speed of light the greater our mass becomes, with greater mass we need equaly greater energy. So if we to go at the speed of light the fastest speed posible our mass would become infinate and we would need infanite energy to go that speed. Making travel at the speed of light esentialy impossible.

Sorry I know that was a little of subject.