Not being a apt biologist the questions arise. Perhaps someone here can say. What if humanizing other species causes them to become as intelligent as people/us? If it is possible, would they be considered human? What would be the consequences if that happened, such as- a gorilla or bear NFL linebacker if they can reason as well as we? :)
We already have gorillas playing football. ;D
First we would have to learn a lot more about the nature of intelligence and what makes most of us an intelligent species. ;D There's a really complex interaction of genes involved in giving us our brain power, in addition to favourable anatomical features and a favourable selection pressures.
For instance, dolphins are really intelligent. Their brains are larger and weigh more than ours (though ours are larger in proportion to our body mass). However, they don't have hands and fingers so are unable to manipulate or craft sophisticated tools. What could have happened in dolphin evolution if they did?
Chimpanzees share about 98% of their genes with us, but don't have the anatomical and brain features associated with language acquisition and production. What would happen to the chimps if they had that capacity? Would they have a human-like culture and be able to pass on sophisticated knowledge like we can?
My point has been missed. :) I came across a youtube video that is about humanizing mice. That brought me to thoughts I had about this some time ago. I didn't watch the video but I understand what they're getting at. Human genes or cell materials are injected into mice to add attributes of one to the other.
I don't know if there's such a thing as a smart gene. IOW is it a specific gene that makes us more intelligent then other species, or is intelligence cased by some other factors. If that gene is implanted in a chimp (by whatever process this is done) and the chimp becomes as intelligent as we, is the chimp human.
That means a chimp could go through K-12 and on to college the same as we, and learn anything the same as we. The Chimp then could also be regulated by civil law, use money, go shopping, have it's own apartment, clothe itself, drive a vehicle, obey tragic lights, etc, and would not be just a matter of repetitious training.
If a smart gene implant is possible a Chimp would understand civil rights, and what an animal cage is. So far the implants have been done to add or change physical attributes. A smart gene (if it exists) may very well make psychological mental ability changes.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on June 23, 2020, 07:55:40 PM
First we would have to learn a lot more about the nature of intelligence and what makes most of us an intelligent species. ;D There's a really complex interaction of genes involved in giving us our brain power, in addition to favourable anatomical features and a favourable selection pressures.
For instance, dolphins are really intelligent. Their brains are larger and weigh more than ours (though ours are larger in proportion to our body mass). However, they don't have hands and fingers so are unable to manipulate or craft sophisticated tools. What could have happened in dolphin evolution if they did?
Chimpanzees share about 98% of their genes with us, but don't have the anatomical and brain features associated with language acquisition and production. What would happen to the chimps if they had that capacity? Would they have a human-like culture and be able to pass on sophisticated knowledge like we can?
I agree, but would they be considered human, and would they have human rights as we. What if they can claim human rights. :)
what, exactly, is "humanizing?"
It's injecting human DNA in another species. Something like taking DNA from a fire fly and injecting it into a cat genome (I think). The cat glows in the dark. They've already done so.
We may be in trouble here. If the cow, not the bull, becomes intelligent how are you going to get it to the slaughter house without a fight. Did you ever try to fight a bull, I did plenty of times as it was growing up. At about 200 lbs I loose.
On the military side, elephants will be able to load and fire 155MM howitzers.
https://youtu.be/6RHTeok5EGY
I deal with humanized sheep everyday, why should this be any different?
XSP said; First we would have to learn a lot more about the nature of intelligence and what makes most of us an intelligent species. ;D There's a really complex interaction of genes involved in giving us our brain power, in addition to favourable anatomical features and a favourable selection pressures.
In point of fact, some of we humans are not so intelligent. Some of us as dumb as a a basket of rocks. Sad but true methinks.
Why would you insult a poor, innocent basket of rocks like that?
we already have experience with humanized animals. we called them black people.
until very recently they gave all the appearances of intelligent life but were considered just another farm animal.
humanizing black people is on ongoing process.
Quote from: billy rubin on June 24, 2020, 11:07:40 AM
we already have experience with humanized animals. we called them black people.
until very recently they gave all the appearances of intelligent life but were considered just another farm animal.
humanizing black people is on ongoing process.
This is fucked up.
yes.
i live in appalachia in the north and black people have to be careful up here just like they do in georgia.
once i was in alabama in a convenience store. there were three white guys talking in front of the counter and an older black man waiting for them to step away so he could pay for his sandwich. they ignored him like he wasnt there.. i walked up to get in line too. when he saw me he carefully took his sandwich and stepped out of line and walked down the counter.
the white guys noticed me and stepped to the side. when they did i turned to the black man and said
youre up, bud
he froze. there were too many white people and he didnt know what to do
luckily a younger black man was there and he said
come on dad. lets pay for the zandwich.
so they did and got out of there.
i didnt do the black man any favors by treating him like a human that day.
hard to figure out the right thing sometimes
The right thing to do is to not give a single flying fuck about something so ridiculously insignificant as the color of someone's meat suit. But, what do I know?
There was a county here in Georgia, about forty years ago I guess, where the sheriff told a black man that he shouldn't be in the county after dark. I'm trying to remember which county that was.
norman, oklahoma was a sundown city until 1967, i think, seven years before i came back to america to go to college there
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sundown_town#:~:text=Sundown%20towns%2C%20also%20known%20as,laws%2C%20intimidation%2C%20and%20violence.
if you were black you had to be out of city limits by sundown. the towns in oklahoma and texas where i lived still have white town and nigger town to separate the people by race.
my sister was a teacher at university of tennessee in chaatanooga, theatrical department. she lived in a place called signal mountain. she often had people from the university up to her house, but the black people didn't like to go there after dark in case they had car trouble. this was her next door neighbor:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byron_De_La_Beckwith
i may have mentioned this, but when i lived in midland texas (home of george h bush) the back alleys in white town were paved, but the residential cross streets in nigger town were still dirt. at 5this time midland had more millionaires per capita than any other city in the us.
not meaning to offend anybody by calling the neighborhoods by their names. until they go away i don't think there's any place to be trying to sugarcoat what they are and how theyre maintained.
not just the south. my fathers family was from new england, and i grew up pwimming at this beach in madison in the summers
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/connecticuts-beaches-were-largely-limits-african-americans-through-1970s-180969494/
Am I the only one who feels the horrible history of how whites have treated African Americans throughout its history should be discussed under social issues and causes and not under the title, Humanized mice, in the science section? There is nothing scientific about that shit.
It's unfortunate but, humans have had a horrible history of treating other humans deplorably. This is just the latest rendition. This awful, disgusting moment in human history being experienced right now. Humans are just not good creatures.
Quote from: No one on June 24, 2020, 07:50:23 PM
It's unfortunate but, humans have had a horrible history of treating other humans deplorably. This is just the latest rendition. This awful, disgusting moment in human history being experienced right now. Humans are just not good creatures.
Humans are vicious creatures. How do you think we survived to get here, anyway!? I grew up being told to be nice. I got walked all over, my entire life (with a couple of exceptions).
There is quite a difference between killing to survive, and killing because of prejudiced ignorance.
Mags is right about the section choice. I agree that we "honkies" have a shameful past for our treatment of people of color. We still have some room for improvement one would imagine.
I began to contemplate the savage treatment of black people in 1948...or maybe it was 49. I was in the National Guard in Tampa. My unit, the 116th field artillery had just returned from summer training in Fort Jackson S.C. We had just gotten home and were almost immediately ordered to return to the armory.
A small citrus growing town, Groveland, about 75 miles from Tampa had gone berserk. The Guard was called into service to quell the threats to the entire negro population of the town. A young white girl had claimed that she was raped by four black men. The white people went nuts and had taken up arms with an unbridled aim to wipe out the entire black population.
The near disaster was diverted because the Guard was also armed. We had to camp out for about a week before the madness had simmered down a bit. The long and short of the story was that the girl was lying. It had not been the black guys who raped her. It had been her white boyfriend who persuaded her to have sex with him. In those days a small town girl losing her virginity before marriage was considered an unthinkable sin. She had to make up some kind of tale to cover her loss of eligibility.
No black people were murdered but the town remained angry for a long time after that event. The falsely accused young black guys have all died since that time. Only recently has the Governor of Florida, Ron DeSantis, issued a full posthumous pardon for the "Groveland four".
That was an event that opened my eyes about the incivility and downright abuse heaped upon anyone who was black. I pondered that situation and became much more conscious of the uninhibited hate that the white people had for the blacks. The damned citrus farmers of that region seemed unable or unwilling to realize that they would be out of business without the negros who tended their groves and did the harvesting. We still have some of that irrationality going on in our agricultural industry today. Most of the harvesters are Hispanics who are treated shabbily. All this makes me know that some of those disadvantaged people are the ones that make it possible for me to have the veggies that I like so much. The FFA (Future Farmers of America) have a saying: No farmers, no food.
Incidentally, While Florida is mostly known for its tourist industry, It is one of the largest producers of agricultural products in the nation.
two of them were shot by the sheriff and his deputy while in custody. one died.
Reversing the theme here a little, and I know this isn't about mice anymore. Have there been any newsworthy (not necessarily in the news but should have been) killings of white by black? I am having a hard time contemplating that prejudice is all one sided. Malcom X in his early days was prejudice.
I've heard about rap music where there were talk about cop killings. I've never heard the songs myself, I can barely make out what they are saying. I'd need the lyric sheets.
It's just a thought and doesn't change the fact that what we've been seeing in the news is downright wrong and those cops need justice handed to them harshly.
Last thing I heard was that chess, math, milk and using fancy words are now considered racist as well.
Quote from: Tom62 on June 26, 2020, 05:19:04 AM
Last thing I heard was that chess, math, milk and using fancy words are now considered racist as well.
Where?
And what does that have to do with Humanized mice?
Here is an example of six white cops killing a white man with bipolar disorder. (https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/25/us/bipolar-man-sword-dies-tased-police/index.html)
I'm curious to see if any protests break out. It's an interesting read. Still nothing to do with mice but is kind of on topic as of late.
Quote from: Magdalena on June 26, 2020, 06:42:32 AM
Quote from: Tom62 on June 26, 2020, 05:19:04 AM
Last thing I heard was that chess, math, milk and using fancy words are now considered racist as well.
Where?
And what does that have to do with Humanized mice?
Everything, because mice can be racists as well :snicker1:
From what I understand of it, from Psycho types that I know. Everyone is racist, and it's part of ones natural psychological makeup. Its in the category of self protection and defense system. We are naturally suspicious and curious when differences in others not of one's own race are observed. As the saying is, birds of a feather flock together, and some are more racist then others. A person should become aware when it's mentally present, determine if there is a danger and if not over-ride the condition - with most that takes place automatically.
This brings me back to the mice. A curiosity question: Do mice have prejudice against others of different colors? Do they have a group mentality? I don't think so but I have no data to point one direction or another.
Would humanized mice behave that way?
Quote from: Randy on June 26, 2020, 01:37:52 PM
Here is an example of six white cops killing a white man with bipolar disorder. (https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/25/us/bipolar-man-sword-dies-tased-police/index.html)
I'm curious to see if any protests break out. It's an interesting read. Still nothing to do with mice but is kind of on topic as of late.
Yeah, very off topic.
Six cases, probably from a deep pull too. The funny thing is, and it's not really that funny, but there are more than six cases a day of police overriding black citizens constitutional rights.
But let's play this game. I wonder how often cops go around harassing white men with bipolar disorder. Harassing them from birth until death.
And all options for the white men bipolar disorder to effect change have a bunch of assholes coming around and telling them they should do it another way. Meanwhile nothing changes for hundreds of years. In that case, I can see social disorder breaking out due to the constant breaking of the social contract by those in power against the white men with bipolar disorder.
The major thing, is to have equal standards and to honor the social contract. As a fair and equal society, we should not have laws that protect one group but doesn't apply to them, and applies to another group but doesn't protect them.
----
So I think that the bipolar white men getting treated that way can be rolled into the same movement that says that we're all human beings and have rights and cops should not be subverting our rights. And that cops that do, need to be held to at least the same standards that the rest of us are held to.
Quote from: Randy on June 26, 2020, 04:46:54 PM
This brings me back to the mice. A curiosity question: Do mice have prejudice against others of different colors? Do they have a group mentality? I don't think so but I have no data to point one direction or another.
Would humanized mice behave that way?
I don't know, I guess I don't understand the premise of this whole thing.
We don't know the psychological and social hang ups mice have, and I don't see how we can speculate on that with some kind of hypothetical human/mouse hybrid.
Quote from: Old Seer on June 26, 2020, 03:53:49 PM
From what I understand of it, from Psycho types that I know. Everyone is racist, and it's part of ones natural psychological makeup. Its in the category of self protection and defense system. We are naturally suspicious and curious when differences in others not of one's own race are observed. ...
..." ...Said the racist white man who used Phrenology to justify his hostile attitudes and fucked up practices.
what about the ear-mice? remember this?
(https://www.researchgate.net/publication/313479123/figure/fig18/AS:471595534819336@1489448545248/Vacanti-mouse-a-host-for-developing-human-ear-100.png)
it turned out to be manipulated. not he picture, the mouse. cow collagen grafted on and shaped with some sort of mold.
i think people were predicting that we grow organs to transplant on the backs of lab animals.
With all this squeaking, this thread has become extremely cheesey.
Quote from: Magdalena on June 26, 2020, 09:11:01 PM
Quote from: Old Seer on June 26, 2020, 03:53:49 PM
From what I understand of it, from Psycho types that I know. Everyone is racist, and it's part of ones natural psychological makeup. Its in the category of self protection and defense system. We are naturally suspicious and curious when differences in others not of one's own race are observed. ...
..." ...Said the racist white man who used Phrenology to justify his hostile attitudes and fucked up practices.
I have any personal racism under my strict control. I've never studied size and shape of the cranium to determine intellectual ability. I have a great grandson, Roman , that is 1/2 black. Hes a real charmer and scoots right over to grampa when I show up. My best buddy in the USMC was a Filipino from the Island of Cebu. His father was a ww2 freedom fighter among the islands. I have pis of eh and I roaming the desert at MCB 29 palms CA. And on liberty in LA at the Jewish community center USO. :)
Quote from: Old Seer on June 26, 2020, 11:01:51 PM
Quote from: Magdalena on June 26, 2020, 09:11:01 PM
Quote from: Old Seer on June 26, 2020, 03:53:49 PM
From what I understand of it, from Psycho types that I know. Everyone is racist, and it's part of ones natural psychological makeup. Its in the category of self protection and defense system. We are naturally suspicious and curious when differences in others not of one's own race are observed. ...
..." ...Said the racist white man who used Phrenology to justify his hostile attitudes and fucked up practices.
I have any personal racism under my strict control. I've never studied size and shape of the cranium to determine intellectual ability. I have a great grandson, Roman , that is 1/2 black. Hes a real charmer and scoots right over to grampa when I show up. My best buddy in the USMC was a Filipino from the Island of Cebu. His father was a ww2 freedom fighter among the islands. I have pis of eh and I roaming the desert at MCB 29 palms CA. And on liberty in LA at the Jewish community center USO. :)
There's no need to explain anything,
Old Seer, I was talking about the "Psycho types" that you said you know.
Someone called me, "a harpy" a few days ago. :worried: --I had to google the word. When I found out what a harpy is I didn't feel the need to defend myself because I know I'm not one. :grin:
Quote from: Magdalena on June 26, 2020, 11:37:49 PM
Quote from: Old Seer on June 26, 2020, 11:01:51 PM
Quote from: Magdalena on June 26, 2020, 09:11:01 PM
Quote from: Old Seer on June 26, 2020, 03:53:49 PM
From what I understand of it, from Psycho types that I know. Everyone is racist, and it's part of ones natural psychological makeup. Its in the category of self protection and defense system. We are naturally suspicious and curious when differences in others not of one's own race are observed. ...
..." ...Said the racist white man who used Phrenology to justify his hostile attitudes and fucked up practices.
I have any personal racism under my strict control. I've never studied size and shape of the cranium to determine intellectual ability. I have a great grandson, Roman , that is 1/2 black. Hes a real charmer and scoots right over to grampa when I show up. My best buddy in the USMC was a Filipino from the Island of Cebu. His father was a ww2 freedom fighter among the islands. I have pis of eh and I roaming the desert at MCB 29 palms CA. And on liberty in LA at the Jewish community center USO. :)
There's no need to explain anything, Old Seer, I was talking about the "Psycho types" that you said you know.
Someone called me, "a harpy" a few days ago. :worried: --I had to google the word. When I found out what a harpy is I didn't feel the need to defend myself because I know I'm not one. :grin:
OK Understood. It's my fault here. The psychotypes are psychologists - Psychiatrist--whatever. Psychotypes is my description because I can't remember the difference between psycho this or psycho that. Psychology/psychiatry is a study of people/person. Knowing them from may contactings over time I'd say they're not much racist and I,m reasonably sure they didn't exclude themselves. :)
Quote from: Magdalena on June 26, 2020, 11:37:49 PM
Someone called me, "a harpy" a few days ago. :worried: --I had to google the word. When I found out what a harpy is I didn't feel the need to defend myself because I know I'm not one. :grin:
Why doesn't anyone tell me these things? I didn't know you weren't a harpy. Actually, I don't know what a harpy is. I'll have to google the word. I'm pretty sure you aren't whatever one of those things are. :grin:
Edit: I just looked it up. You
definitely are not a harpy!
Quote from: Randy on June 27, 2020, 12:20:46 AM
Quote from: Magdalena on June 26, 2020, 11:37:49 PM
Someone called me, "a harpy" a few days ago. :worried: --I had to google the word. When I found out what a harpy is I didn't feel the need to defend myself because I know I'm not one. :grin:
Why doesn't anyone tell me these things? I didn't know you weren't a harpy. Actually, I don't know what a harpy is. I'll have to google the word. I'm pretty sure you aren't whatever one of those things are. :grin:
Edit: I just looked it up. You definitely are not a harpy!
:lol: Thanks.
Ugly, aren't they?
Quote from: Old Seer on June 27, 2020, 12:12:25 AM
Quote from: Magdalena on June 26, 2020, 11:37:49 PM
Quote from: Old Seer on June 26, 2020, 11:01:51 PM
Quote from: Magdalena on June 26, 2020, 09:11:01 PM
Quote from: Old Seer on June 26, 2020, 03:53:49 PM
From what I understand of it, from Psycho types that I know. Everyone is racist, and it's part of ones natural psychological makeup. Its in the category of self protection and defense system. We are naturally suspicious and curious when differences in others not of one's own race are observed. ...
..." ...Said the racist white man who used Phrenology to justify his hostile attitudes and fucked up practices.
I have any personal racism under my strict control. I've never studied size and shape of the cranium to determine intellectual ability. I have a great grandson, Roman , that is 1/2 black. Hes a real charmer and scoots right over to grampa when I show up. My best buddy in the USMC was a Filipino from the Island of Cebu. His father was a ww2 freedom fighter among the islands. I have pis of eh and I roaming the desert at MCB 29 palms CA. And on liberty in LA at the Jewish community center USO. :)
There's no need to explain anything, Old Seer, I was talking about the "Psycho types" that you said you know.
Someone called me, "a harpy" a few days ago. :worried: --I had to google the word. When I found out what a harpy is I didn't feel the need to defend myself because I know I'm not one. :grin:
OK Understood. It's my fault here. The psychotypes are psychologists - Psychiatrist--whatever. Psychotypes is my description because I can't remember the difference between psycho this or psycho that. Psychology/psychiatry is a study of people/person. Knowing them from may contactings over time I'd say they're not much racist and I,m reasonably sure they didn't exclude themselves. :)
Ah! Got it.
I gave the same definition of the word, psychology that you gave and my teacher corrected me:
"Psychology is the
scientific study of the mind and behavior..."
;)