Happy Atheist Forum

i was just thinking about something and wondering whether someone could clear something up for me.

a friend of mine has just spent a few months working as an Au Pair in France. for a family with three adopted kids (adopted from other parts of the world) and the parents of this family are strict Jehovah's witnesses.

now i am generally against children being brought up with one set religious belief, but there is one issue in particular that got my blood boiling. my friend told me that apparently, because Jehovah's witnesses are against such things as blood transfusions, if a child is brought into hospital the hospital has no choice but to respect the parent's religious views and not give the child a blood transfusion even if it really needs it.
i was just wondering whether this occurs in other countries too? and how this can possibly be allowed? surely that is one situation where the state simply has to intervene. to hell with the parent's beliefs (no pun intended) if a child's welfare is at stake can ridiculous religious views really be given higher priority?
and if this is the case isn't there anything we can do about it to protect these children?

thanks for any views or opinions....

I think it's ridiculous and sad. I think the child's best interests should be number one on the doctor's mind, but legally, it can't be. This country is crazy about protecting certain religions' beliefs (Christian mostly). It's annoying and it really scares the shit out of me sometimes.

"abstain from blood." Acts 15:29

Yet, hemophiliacs are allowed medication that contains "blood" in the layman's sense.  Others can be disfellowshipped for transfusions, etc.

I once read somewhere that Witnesses were a factor in the invention of dialysis, but I now think that is unfounded.

I have close relatives that are Witnesses, and they are incredibly strict and critical of their children.  I am not alleging that all Witnesses are this way, but in comparison to my liberal paternal family, they stand out.

This is just one example of when religious doctrine crosses the line into neglect and child abuse. Even negligent homicide.

As to where it's legal, I don't really know. There was a recent case in the US that the parents were not charged.

Parents here can use religious excuses to stop and prevent needed medical care.But there are cases where the state steps in to charge the parents with neglect.I don't see how someone can say they love their child then deny them a treatment that could save their life.

Off topic sort of.

Even scarier is The Church of Christ, Scientist or Christian Scientists.  Not allowing blood transfusions is one thing, not allowing doctors is another.  The lead singer of Metallica lost his mother to cancer, with help from this religion.  

"The God That Failed"

Pride you took
Pride you feel
Pride that you felt when you'd kneel

Not the word
Not the love
Not what you thought from above

It feeds
It grows
It clouds all that you will know
Deceit
Deceive
Decide just what you believe

I see faith in your eyes
Never your hear the discouraging lies
I hear faith in your cries
Broken is the promise, betrayal
The healing hand held back by the deepened nail

Follow the God that failed

Find your peace
Find your say
Find the smooth road in your way

Trust you gave
A child to save
Left you cold and him in grave

It feeds
It grows
It clouds all that you will know
Deceit
Deceive
Decide just what you believe

I see faith in your eyes
Never you hear the discouraging lies
I hear faith in your cries
Broken is the promise, betrayal
The healing hand held back by the deepened nail

Follow the God that failed

I see faith in your eyes
Broken is the promise, betrayal
The healing hand held back by the deepened nail

Follow the God that failed

Pride you took
Pride you feel
Pride that you felt when youd kneel

Trust you gave
A child to save
Left you cold and him in grave

I see faith in your eyes
Never you hear the discouraging lies
I hear faith in your cries
Broken is the promise, betrayal
The healing hand held back by deepened nail

Follow the God that failed

Christian Science has more of the worst cases of neglect.There is a small sect I can't remember the group that doesn't allow members to even wear eye glasses.It's such nonsense to see people go without something so basic.And the movie The Exorcism of Emily Rose is based on a true story.She was German Catholic,her parents were charged with negligent homicide.The Catholic Church approved her exorcism and there are still alot of people who think her parents and the church were right to have treated her this way.She was an adult but it's pretty clear she had some mental issues going on.

Quote from: "Dreamer"a friend of mine has just spent a few months working as an Au Pair in France. for a family with three adopted kids (adopted from other parts of the world) and the parents of this family are strict Jehovah's witnesses.

Ouch!

Quote from: "Dreamer"my friend told me that apparently, because Jehovah's witnesses are against such things as blood transfusions, if a child is brought into hospital the hospital has no choice but to respect the parent's religious views and not give the child a blood transfusion even if it really needs it.

That's how I understand things are in the States. Here, if the kid wants treatment, he/she will get it. In some cases, family members can over-rule someone's decision to refuse treatment (which I think is just as wrong as someone else deciding to give treatment against patient's expressed wishes), but I haven't heard of a family member successfully denying someone's right to potentially life-saving procedures. Thus, our Jehova's Witnesses just brainwash themselves enough to do the refusing themselves.

Quote from: "Dreamer"i was just wondering whether this occurs in other countries too? and how this can possibly be allowed? surely that is one situation where the state simply has to intervene.

The state will stay out of it unless the case goes to court. Such matters are usually, as far as I understand, decided by the treating physician and the hospital's ethics dept.

Quote from: "Dreamer"to hell with the parent's beliefs (no pun intended) if a child's welfare is at stake can ridiculous religious views really be given higher priority?
and if this is the case isn't there anything we can do about it to protect these children?

Where that IS the case, there is little to nothing we can do.

Yikes.

Speaking of which, I have an interesting story. I used to have a friend who was a Jehovah's Witness. His parents were, and he followed the trend. I had a few good chats with him to understand how it works, and I was totally amazed at the crazy paradox of it all. That guy *really* believed in what he had been taught (brainstormed). His dad wasn't a witness, and I know both he and his mom were really sad that they would not follow him after Judgment day. He was talking about that place where everyone would be happy, but only people who were witnesses and spread the word would go there.

That's where it gets really funny. First, the guy was not a nice guy. He gave that appearance but once you knew him, he was a selfish liar. Second, I asked him how people could be happy in that place, after leaving their friends and relatives that were not witnesses. His reply: (you probably saw it coming) 'Because the Bible says so'.

I think I stopped the conversation after this, because it just made no sense whatsoever. Plus, I didn't tell him that, but I couldn't quite imagine everyone being happy with people like himself there  

Quote from: "Pricia"That guy *really* believed in what he had been taught (brainstormed).

I believe you mean "brainwashed". Brainstorming is when someone or someones concentrate hard on a subject or problem. Still, I guarantee your English is better than my French!

Yuck. I'm apparently sleep-deprived. Thanks

Quote from: "Pricia"Yuck. I'm apparently sleep-deprived. Thanks :D

In the United States healthcare system it's all about autonomy and informed consent verses the idea of beneficense (the code of healthcare providers to not harm patients). If you're under 18, you are not considered legally able to give consent to any healthcare procedure. Your parents have to do it for you. Healthcare providers have to respect the autonomy for refusal of treatment for any reason whatsoever, including dumb religious reasons. In a case like this a hospital bioethics committee will be called in to discuss the issue with the parents and their clergy and hopefully slap some sense into them. But I assure you, in the US, if the parents refuse care for their children, especially for religious reasons, the kid will not get care, and the parents cannot be charged with child abuse or neglect.  

It is really something, but in the US we are so fearful of religious discrimination that we allow the religious to get away with murder.

Quote from: "myleviathan"... In a case like this a hospital bioethics committee will be called in to discuss the issue with the parents and their clergy and hopefully slap some sense into them. But I assure you, in the US, if the parents refuse care for their children, especially for religious reasons, the kid will not get care, and the parents cannot be charged with child abuse or neglect.  :(

Quote from: "myleviathan"But I assure you, in the US, if the parents refuse care for their children, especially for religious reasons, the kid will not get care, and the parents cannot be charged with child abuse or neglect.  

What if the kid says that it wants treatment?

If the child was coherent enough the hospital's bioethics committee would urge the parents to go with what the son wants. But what happens if the son isn't willing to get it either?? A lot of those kids are so brainwashed to believe if they get a blood transfusion it will cause them to be looked over so they won't be able to go to heaven. They're more concerned about their eternal soul than their 'temporary' body. If the child wasn't coherent enough to express his wishes, they would try to find out how the child would have felt about this situation, and talk to his friends and family to see if they could recall a conversation where he might have expressed his wishes. Here is a pretty well researched piece from religioustolerance.org that has some very interesting information about this topic:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/witness11.htm (http://www.religioustolerance.org/witness11.htm)

To my knowledge (and I'm studying this right now), sometimes the Department of Children and Families gets involved, but there's nothing the hospital can do. The hospital giving the transfusion can't give it without parental consent.

Quote from: "myleviathan"If the child was coherent enough the hospital's bioethics committee would urge the parents to go with what the son wants. But what happens if the son isn't willing to get it either?? A lot of those kids are so brainwashed to believe if they get a blood transfusion it will cause them to be looked over so they won't be able to go to heaven. They're more concerned about their eternal soul than their 'temporary' body. If the child wasn't coherent enough to express his wishes, they would try to find out how the child would have felt about this situation, and talk to his friends and family to see if they could recall a conversation where he might have expressed his wishes. Here is a pretty well researched piece from religioustolerance.org that has some very interesting information about this topic:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/witness11.htm (http://www.religioustolerance.org/witness11.htm)

Indeed it is much easier for a child to be brainwashed by this sort of thing since they haven't seen a larger world view. Many parents, especially religious ones keep their kids in a tight safety net.

Here's a fairly recent case of a brainwashed child:

http://www.ktvb.com/news/regional/stori ... dfb35.html (http://www.ktvb.com/news/regional/stories/ktvbn-nov2907-transfusion_boy_dies.4efdfb35.html)

Negligent homicide - A person commits the offense of negligent homicide if the person negligently causes the death of another human being.

There's is nothing to convince me that a parent who lets their child die because of a ****ing religious hoo-doo is NOT guilty of this crime.

I'm sure it depends on the location of the hospital and the doctors involved also.I would think a larger more well known hospital would take more action to be able to treat the child.

That's the problem. They can't. The only hope for a child in this situation is the state to over-rule parental consent - which does happen. All hospitals have their hands tied with the threat of law-suits. If the state over-rules the consent then they'll do it. But only in that case as far as I know.