Happy Atheist Forum

Here is a question for you all?

What did you do before you lived?  What are you gona do after you live?  ANd who is between? (This is obvious it is yourself right)

now theyre are certain Books out there "the bible" that describes events.  Do you Believe them?  Or do you believe in history and science?  And that Man Creates everything?  Jesus was a man by the way and also divine in nature.

I am not trying to make you believe, but if you think of the facts...the reasoning only sugests that God created man.  Every living and non living thing was created by something.  Or are we all just dreaming and nothing exists.....But feel your hand, look at yourself in the mirror, have a glass of wine or something, can you feel?  if you do then it means that you are alive!  One more question does anyone hav children?  Who created that child...It was you and a parnter of love.  Someone created something and it keeps repeating, and who knows God can be your great ancestor that initatied the mold for your personal existance today!

Peace!

I am a noob here, but I love debates and I am deeply involved spirtualy.

-Jeremiah

Hi JP, welcome to the forum.  I wrote out a full reply to your question and I must have forgotten to submit it since it didn't post.  Anyway.  Here's my response in a nut shell.

I do not believe we existed before being alive and I do not believe that we exist after we die.

What you are basically arguing thorugh your questions is that we are alive (I agree) and that since we are alive we must have a creator (this is where we disagree).

Just because something exists does not mean it had to be purposely created.  Evolution explains how complex life got here.  Abiogenesis (with more research) is likely to properly explain how life started.  There are also numerous non-god related theories on how the universe got here.  Although we don't know how the universe got here that does not make it right to use God as a gap filler.  

The most honest view of how the universe got here, imo, is I don't know.  There are many things we do not have the answers for (you probably don't fully understand how your computer works but you don't claim it is due to magic) so it's perfectly reasonable to say you don't know how the computer works.  But, unlike computers which we can research to find out how they work, the evidence necessary to find out the cause (or non-cause) of the universe is either destoryed or not yet found.

Quote from: "JeremiahPeace"Here is a question for you all?

I'm not sure that's a question.

Quote from: "JeremiahPeace"What did you do before you lived?

I was a myriad of different things. I was a zygote before I was alive and before that I was sperm and egg. Those probably came from protein in my parent's diets, so maybe dairy, meat, or nut.

Quote from: "JeremiahPeace"What are you gona do after you live?

I'll decompose.

Quote from: "JeremiahPeace"now theyre are certain Books out there "the bible" that describes events.  Do you Believe them?

They don't present evidence that I can review and verify, so no.

Quote from: "JeremiahPeace"Or do you believe in history and science?

Science and logic coupled with my developed sense of reason are generally my guide.

Quote from: "JeremiahPeace"And that Man Creates everything?

Man creates what man creates. We've hardly created everything. We didn't cause the Big Bang. We didn't cause the rules of the universe. We didn't cause stellar matter to converge into stars and other stellar bodies. We didn't cause life.

Quote from: "JeremiahPeace"Jesus was a man by the way and also divine in nature.

There's very little extra-biblical evidence that Jesus actually existed. It's possible, though. It's infinitely unlikely that he was more than a normal human being, if he did exist.

Quote from: "JeremiahPeace"Every living and non living thing was created by something.

This isn't exactly right. Everything may have been preceded by something, but "created" suggests an intelligent designer for which there is no evidence.

Quote from: "JeremiahPeace"One more question does anyone hav children?  Who created that child...It was you and a parnter of love.

Not everything follows the same steps in it's development or "creation" as children. Who created igneous rock? No one, it was "created" by volcanic activity. Is a volcano intelligent, sentient, or alive? No, of course not.

Quote from: "JeremiahPeace"Here is a question for you all?

What did you do before you lived?  What are you gona do after you live?  ANd who is between? (This is obvious it is yourself right)

now theyre are certain Books out there "the bible" that describes events.  Do you Believe them?  Or do you believe in history and science?  And that Man Creates everything?  Jesus was a man by the way and also divine in nature.

I am not trying to make you believe, but if you think of the facts...the reasoning only sugests that God created man.  Every living and non living thing was created by something.  Or are we all just dreaming and nothing exists.....But feel your hand, look at yourself in the mirror, have a glass of wine or something, can you feel?  if you do then it means that you are alive!  One more question does anyone hav children?  Who created that child...It was you and a parnter of love.  Someone created something and it keeps repeating, and who knows God can be your great ancestor that initatied the mold for your personal existance today!

Peace!

I am a noob here, but I love debates and I am deeply involved spirtualy.

-Jeremiah

Thank you for being respectful on your questions.It's a nice change to see some asking and not telling.Myself I think life was a accident nothing more.If you look into other religions you will see a God/Gods and various other reasonings behind life.I think when we die that is just that.I believe that living on is only thru the lives of our family and friends.I don't see why there has to be reason behind life and death.It is just that.It's good for you to have a belief in God,but God isn't for everyone.And religion shouldn't be used to rip people apart.But it is.People should be able to believe in what they choose,without having it be a punishment.So are gay,black or just different,no one should have to be ashamed of who and what they are.You'll have to excuse any typos or various nonsense bad hip and good pain killers.

I will say though that even if there was proof...that I would be more angry then anything else.The world is just to screwed up and I think anyone good and loving with power to stop it would.

Quote from: "JeremiahPeace""the bible"

I can just picture Dr. Evil going: "the bible" using his quotation fingers.

Quote from: "JeremiahPeace"God can be your great ancestor that initatied the mold for your personal existance today!

That's an interesting thought, Jeremiah - may I ask what denomination of Christianity you belong to?

QuoteWhat did you do before you lived?

I don’t know, do you?

QuoteWhat are you gona do after you live?

I don’t know, do you?

QuoteANd who is between? (This is obvious it is yourself right)

Whatever I want, gosh!

Quotenow theyre are certain Books out there "the bible" that describes events. Do you Believe them?

Historical events, sure. Magical events, no.  

QuoteOr do you believe in history and science?

I believe where there is evidence

QuoteAnd that Man Creates everything?

???

QuoteJesus was a man by the way and also divine in nature?

David Copperfield can turn water in to wine too.

QuoteI am not trying to make you believe, but if you think of the facts...the reasoning only sugests that God created man.

Why does it have to be god, why not something else?  

QuoteOne more question does anyone hav children? Who created that child...It was you and a parnter of love. Someone created something and it keeps repeating, and who knows God can be your great ancestor that initatied the mold for your personal existance today!

Take these two ideas and compare them. Which one do you honestly think happened:

God created man in “his” own image

Or

Man created god in “his” own image

Quote from: "JeremiahPeace"What did you do before you lived?

I did not exist, so nothing.

Quote from: "JeremiahPeace"What are you gona do after you live?

Die, obviously  :raised: Yes, what about the facts?

Quote from: "JeremiahPeace"the reasoning only sugests that God created man.

No, faith, blind and ignorant faith, suggests that. Reasoning suggests something totally different.

Quote from: "JeremiahPeace"Every living and non living thing was created by something.

So what created your god?

Quote from: "JeremiahPeace"Or are we all just dreaming and nothing exists.....But feel your hand, look at yourself in the mirror, have a glass of wine or something, can you feel?

If I drink wine in a dream, I still feel like I'm drinking wine. Terrible example.

Quote from: "JeremiahPeace"if you do then it means that you are alive!

I feel because I live. But do I live because I feel?

Quote from: "JeremiahPeace"One more question does anyone hav children?  Who created that child...

I don't have kids, but I can very well tell you who created me. My mom and my dad having a one night stand in a very un-godly fashion.

Quote from: "JeremiahPeace"Someone created something and it keeps repeating, and who knows God can be your great ancestor that initatied the mold for your personal existance today!

If you define my ancestor as god, then I am many times the god for my greater brain capacity and capability of creation and destruction.

Quote from: "JeremiahPeace"Peace!

I am a noob here, but I love debates and I am deeply involved spirtualy.

Try not to be a troll in the future. Back your claims up with more than hollow words and bad examples.

The central point of your argument appears to be that the existence of a creator explains creation better than Science, which cannot give a reason for, or explanation of, the Big Bang.
Sorry, it doesn't work.  What you are doing is bundling all the problems into one entity - god - which poses a bigger problem than you had before. Who created god? A bigger god?  You get an infinite regress.
Occam's Razor is the name for the philosophical principle that you solve nothing by adding layers in this way, you only complicate the problem.  (Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem, attributed to William of Ockham, a 14th century theologian.)

I guess some people cannot be happy unless everything is conveniently explanable. Where did the universe come from? God, of course! That is a far easier hypothesis than an enormous explosion which happened 14 billion years ago, giving birth to the universe. I can see why so many people side with the God theory. Unfortunately that theory is totally incorrect.

What did we do before we were here? We didn't exist, that's what. I was dead for 14 billion years before i was born, and i'll be dead for the rest of time after i die. There is nothing to experience in oblivion because you do not have a brain to experience it. The only reason humans cannot fully comprehend death is because the brain is a device which functions within the living world and needs lots of sensory data to make sense of things. Without that data, the mind is nothing and cannot register anything. Similarly, we do not really register sleep because the brain has almost fully shut down. That is why, when you wake up, you do not think "man, those last eight hours sleeping were so boring!"

400 years ago, the general concensus was that the earth was flat. 200 years ago, most still thought that we were the centre of the universe. In 200 years time, we'll laugh at the minority who still cling to the theory that an invisible creator in the sky made us all - 6000 years ago, no less.

I was created by the uniting of two gametes whose haploid genetic material then became diploid.  Probably with the help of some maternal transcription factors, the information carried by my new chromosomes was transcibed into RNA which was translated to proteins which began a beautifully confusing and complicated cascade of biochemistry.  The results of these chemical reactions resulted in the switching on and off of various genes on said chromosomes through time, and using the energy gained from my maternal parent through what is now only my belly button, I built a small body.

Prior to this my gamete donors went through much the same processes, theirs before them and so on and so forth, and most of the time all these biochemical reations went accordingly.  Occaisionally, however, there were errors, changes or mutations that resulted in many things.  A change could be fatal, it could be harmless and not really affect anything, or it could cause something new to occur.  If I look back very far in the past, over many, many changes, and millions of years, I can figure that we all could have been something rather different, and fossils back up this idea.

Prior to this, there are a few interesting proposols about where all this started, but I'm really fond of the hypothesis that we originated right here on our own planet by natural processes without alien intervention or mystical swirlings or what have you.  I don't need a who in my answer because I have a what and my what is nature.

Welcome to the forum!

Quote from: "JeremiahPeace"What did you do before you lived?

I don't think I "did" anything. I didn't exist.

Quote from: "JeremiahPeace"What are you gona do after you live?  

I don't think I will do anything. After I live, I will cease to exist.

Quote from: "JeremiahPeace"ANd who is between? (This is obvious it is yourself right)

I am me between birth and death, if that's what you mean.

Quote from: "JeremiahPeace"now theyre are certain Books out there "the bible" that describes events.  Do you Believe them?

No, to me they are as real as the Illiad and the Odyssey.

Quote from: "JeremiahPeace"Or do you believe in history and science?  

I don't really believe in history and science. I believe they are true (more or less), but I don't put my life into them.

Quote from: "JeremiahPeace"And that Man Creates everything?  

That depends on what you mean by "create". Man created the ipod (invented more like it). I personally think man also created gods and religion. But what do you mean by "everything"?

Quote from: "JeremiahPeace"Jesus was a man by the way and also divine in nature.

Belief, not fact.

Quote from: "JeremiahPeace"I am not trying to make you believe,

Thank you very much. I appreciate you not preaching fire and brimstone.

Quote from: "JeremiahPeace"but if you think of the facts...the reasoning only sugests that God created man.  Every living and non living thing was created by something.

.....so therefore God must exist? I don't agree with God-of-the-gaps logic. And remember they are "facts" to you, but not everyone.

Quote from: "JeremiahPeace"...can you feel?  if you do then it means that you are alive!  

But does the fact that I'm alive mean God created me?

Quote from: "JeremiahPeace"One more question does anyone hav children?  Who created that child...It was you and a parnter of love.  Someone created something and it keeps repeating, and who knows God can be your great ancestor that initatied the mold for your personal existance today!

Yes, men and women make children. But does that mean God created me?


I personally don't know if I was divinely created or not, and it doesn't matter to me.


Looking forward to your responses. Happy posting!

Quote from: "JeremiahPeace"Here is a question for you all?

What did you do before you lived?  What are you gona do after you live?  ANd who is between? (This is obvious it is yourself right)

now theyre are certain Books out there "the bible" that describes events.  Do you Believe them?  Or do you believe in history and science?  And that Man Creates everything?  Jesus was a man by the way and also divine in nature.

I am not trying to make you believe, but if you think of the facts...the reasoning only sugests that God created man.  Every living and non living thing was created by something.  Or are we all just dreaming and nothing exists.....But feel your hand, look at yourself in the mirror, have a glass of wine or something, can you feel?  if you do then it means that you are alive!  One more question does anyone hav children?  Who created that child...It was you and a parnter of love.  Someone created something and it keeps repeating, and who knows God can be your great ancestor that initatied the mold for your personal existance today!

Peace!

I am a noob here, but I love debates and I am deeply involved spirtualy.

-Jeremiah

Welcome.

To your questions: there's nothing before and nothing after that's supernatural, spiritual, metaphysical. The here and now, the present, is what there is - again, nothing supernatural, spiritual, metaphysical.

Books are written by man. Some attribute divine inspiration but there is no proof other that someone's word. Events described in the Bible are based on oral history that has changed over time. Jesus, if he existed, was a man, made divine by a conclave of church elders.

Check your reasoning - suggestion does not imply truth. Rather, reasoning suggests that man created God to explain things that he does not understand yet.

There is no need to attribute a supernatural cause to anything where the natural cause has not been discovered yet.

Hey JP!  Welcome to the forum.

Quote from: "JeremiahPeace"What did you do before you lived?

Nothing.  It's impossible to do anything before you are conceived.  What did you do before you lived?

Quote from: "JeremiahPeace"What are you gona do after you live?

I will stop living.  No lights at the end of the tunnel.  Just peace (and quiet).  I will feel the same way that I felt before I was born.

Quote from: "JeremiahPeace"ANd who is between?

I am in between.  My family is in between.  My loved ones are in between.  It is a glorious ride.

Quote from: "JeremiahPeace"now theyre are certain Books out there "the bible" that describes events.  Do you Believe them?  Or do you believe in history and science?

Just as you state, the bible describes events.  There is no logical reason to believe in the accuracy of the events that are depicted.  The movie Shrek also describes events.  I don't believe them, either.  Fun to watch, though.

Quote from: "JeremiahPeace"Jesus was a man by the way and also divine in nature.

By the way, Jesus, if he did exist, was not divine.  There are no secular accounts of Jesus' existance that were written during his supposed lifetime.  The secular accounts that you have seen were written many years after his supposed crucifixion.

Quote from: "JeremiahPeace"...but if you think of the facts...the reasoning only sugests that God created man.  Every living and non living thing was created by something.  Or are we all just dreaming and nothing exists.....But feel your hand, look at yourself in the mirror, have a glass of wine or something, can you feel?  if you do then it means that you are alive!  One more question does anyone hav children?  Who created that child...It was you and a parnter of love.  Someone created something and it keeps repeating, and who knows God can be your great ancestor that initatied the mold for your personal existance today!

You have unfortunately fallen into the same pitfall that many theists have.  The things that you describe are quite amazing - the senses of taste, touch, and vision; the complex emotions of love.  These are amazing feats of nature that have grown in complexity over eons.  Since we only live for about 70 or 80 years, it is very hard for us to imagine that our lifetime is but a blink of cosmic eye, but it is just that.  These things that seem miraculous have developed over time periods that we will never experience.  It is therefore easier to explain them by attributing their existence to a higher power.

We welcome your debate...but share some of your own beliefs.  That will help us get to know you better.

Jeremiah,

The problem with the belief that everything has a creator is that 99% of the world is up for debate on that matter. If you change the wording to "How much of reality has been demonstrated to have had a creator," we get a very different answer: most things have not.

QuoteHere is a question for you all?

Is it a question or a preaching intend to all of us?  :D

Quotenow theyre are certain Books out there "the bible" that describes events.  Do you Believe them?

I don’t “believe” them, not I can take any reasonable thought out of them. Just as matter of study for sociology or anthropology, or even literature or history (but not upon the fantasies described into the sacred books, that is).  

QuoteOr do you believe in history and science?

I trust â€"as “belief” can be confused with simple blindness without enquiry-  in the ability of science for supporting his evidence, therefore anything I decide to follow can be studied by me if I take the effort. I also now that sciences stands as the best explanations currently available, and that â€"au contraire than religious dogma- it evolves toward better accuracy. So, is not perfection claimed, and can be questioned given the science methodical scheme.    

QuoteAnd that Man Creates everything?

Man “creates” out of his ability. His creations spans huge ranges, his limits not reached yet. But to claim “everything” is a logical fallacy. Unless “everything” is redefined in other context that you didn’t offer. Whatever man creates stems as product of the logic of the universe that he studies, and not out of magical prodigies. So he is limited but resourceful and adding brick after brick day after day.  

QuoteJesus was a man by the way and also divine in nature.

If Jesus was a "someone", was just a man, with all human defects. And his divine nature is just what his followers claim under religious belief. His story is a tale, undefined mixture of raccontos and fantasy touched decades after decades till it took some form. Many of the stories attributed to Jesus are extremely useful to their apostles or their followers, thus anyone with certain base can argue that the they made that Jesus talk like a puppet, if suitable to their aims. Otherwise, it’s just plain faith.

QuoteI am not trying to make you believe, but if you think of the facts...the reasoning only sugests that God created man.

The reasoning of the facts aims exactly towards the opposite direction. Your confusion can only be deemed as ignorance on what reasoning is and lack of openness to anything strictly scientific. Gods do not depend on reasoning, neither are you to make such nonsensical claim.    

QuoteEvery living and non living thing was created by something.

That’s a fallacy due whether to utter ignorance or just language reduction badly applied. As -semantically- creation relies on a creator and creator relies on a kind of consciousness you try to link the events with a fallacy. What you call creation can be called evolution, and any “creation” can rely on, and is dependent of natural physical circumstances. There is no factual evidence of vacuum to claim anything came from that, and much less the gods doing such a job. Au contraire, an analysis â€"made with thoughtful understanding- points towards permanence through extreme changes. Your view is a “born and die” subjective human thought applied to the universe, but the universe do not have to be slave of it.  

QuoteOr are we all just dreaming and nothing exists.....But feel your hand, look at yourself in the mirror, have a glass of wine or something, can you feel?  if you do then it means that you are alive!

We feel and we dream. Not only that, we can also have fantasies and write fairy tales books. But the difference is that we don’t make them “religion”. We know they stay in the dream world. We exists, we can feel, we are alive, and we are not doped by religion and lies.

QuoteOne more question does anyone hav children?  Who created that child...It was you and a parnter of love.  Someone created something and it keeps repeating, and who knows God can be your great ancestor that initatied the mold for your personal existance today!

Biology, medicine, and â€"again- etcetera (etcetera relies on the thread that is science as a paradigm) explain the children origin, our origin. Love is real too, but we don’t need to cover it up with religious tales and fascinated conundrums. Is your god real? Ask him to give you the astounding knowledge to improve your reasoning and you persuasion skills. There is no god, but that could make you take a double effort on what you write.

Remember, is not at all the same to speak/write to uneducated and somehow religious folks, than to do it to people used to think and dismember everything that you assert.

QuotePeace!

Peace and reason!

QuoteI am a noob here, but I love debates and I am deeply involved spirtualy.

Hope that deeply is not "I don't care whatever the truth is, as long as I make it the way I like it to be"
Next time just try to make one and only one assertion to make the dialogue easier.

I believe that I was created directly by my parents who were part of this limitless process of evolution. An evolution sparked by the many possibilities such as the laws of physics, matter and consciousness of this living universe, a universe I believe to be God him/herself.

Quote from: "Asmodean"

Quote from: "JeremiahPeace"One more question does anyone hav children?  Who created that child...

I don't have kids, but I can very well tell you who created me. My mom and my dad having a one night stand in a very un-godly fashion.

I personally think that "my parent bumping uglies/playing hide the pickle/sausage" would be much funnier. Good reply, though. With the exception of the troll part, at least give JerimiahPeace mercy because he is a self-described "noob". I agree with you on pretty much everything else you've said.........ever. It was just that one thing. (just wanted to clarify.)

Quote from: "nikkixsugar"

Quote from: "Asmodean"

Quote from: "JeremiahPeace"One more question does anyone hav children?  Who created that child...

I don't have kids, but I can very well tell you who created me. My mom and my dad having a one night stand in a very un-godly fashion.

I personally think that "my parent bumping uglies/playing hide the pickle/sausage" would be much funnier. Good reply, though. With the exception of the troll part, at least give JerimiahPeace mercy because he is a self-described "noob". I agree with you on pretty much everything else you've said.........ever. It was just that one thing. (just wanted to clarify.)

Well, the reply I used there was plain truth, nothing more.

As for troll-comment, I asked him not to be a troll and told him why I though his post was trollish, did I not?  

Jeremiah, your religion causes you to want to stay ignorant of the workings of the universe.

How did the universe begin?

How did life orginiate?

These are just two questions out of many that scientists are working toward understanding every day, and if religious folk had their ways, we would never find out. We'd simply give up an say "god did it". THAT is unacceptable.

Quote from: "leftyguitarjoe"Jeremiah, your religion causes you to want to stay ignorant of the workings of the universe.

How did the universe begin?

How did life orginiate?

These are just two questions out of many that scientists are working toward understanding every day, and if religious folk had their was, we would never find out. We'd simply give up an say "god did it". THAT is unacceptable.

I give you a big, red   QFT  

Quote from: "Asmodean"

Quote from: "leftyguitarjoe"Jeremiah, your religion causes you to want to stay ignorant of the workings of the universe.

How did the universe begin?

How did life orginiate?

These are just two questions out of many that scientists are working toward understanding every day, and if religious folk had their was, we would never find out. We'd simply give up an say "god did it". THAT is unacceptable.

I give you a big, red   QFT  :hmm:

I'm sorry, for I am unfamiliar with this acronym

Quote from: "leftyguitarjoe"Quantum Field Theory? :unsure:

Haha, nono, QFT as a forum acronym stands for "Quoted for Truth". In this case, "Quote for Truth"  

Quote from: "Asmodean"

Quote from: "leftyguitarjoe"Quantum Field Theory? :unsure:

Haha, nono, QFT as a forum acronym stands for "Quoted for Truth". In this case, "Quote for Truth"  

ah. well thank you then!!

Quote from: "nikkixsugar"

Quote from: "Asmodean"

Quote from: "JeremiahPeace"One more question does anyone hav children?  Who created that child...

I don't have kids, but I can very well tell you who created me. My mom and my dad having a one night stand in a very un-godly fashion.

I personally think that "my parent bumping uglies/playing hide the pickle/sausage" would be much funnier. Good reply, though. With the exception of the troll part, at least give JerimiahPeace mercy because he is a self-described "noob". I agree with you on pretty much everything else you've said.........ever. It was just that one thing. (just wanted to clarify.)

"Well, the reply I used there was plain truth, nothing more.

As for troll-comment, I asked him not to be a troll and told him why I though his post was trollish, did I not?"  [/quote]


You have a point. When I first saw you replied to me I was like "Ahhh! It's Asmodean! Please don't kill me!". hehe.

Quote from: "nikkixsugar"You have a point. When I first saw you replied to me I was like "Ahhh! It's Asmodean! Please don't kill me!". hehe.

Why, but Asmodean doesn't bite, does he? *picture of innocence*  :beer:

Quote from: "Asmodean"

Quote from: "nikkixsugar"You have a point. When I first saw you replied to me I was like "Ahhh! It's Asmodean! Please don't kill me!". hehe.

Why, but Asmodean doesn't bite, does he? *picture of innocence*  :beer:

You are pretty ominous! I've noticed that talking to some of the HAF mucky-mucks (As Kathy Griffin would say). You know, Mods, Addicts, and such, is like chatting with Dawkins (not that I've had the pleasure of doing so) minus the English accent and class. Okay, that's going to get me killed.    hahahaha. jk, many of you are very classy.

Quote from: "nikkixsugar"You are pretty ominous! I've noticed that talking to some of the HAF mucky-mucks (As Kathy Griffin would say). You know, Mods, Addicts, and such, is like chatting with Dawkins (not that I've had the pleasure of doing so) minus the English accent and class. Okay, that's going to get me killed.    hahahaha. jk, many of you are very classy.

Haha! Asmo The Ominous! I like the sound of that! :-D Nah, we are a nice bunch, we are :-P