(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/p480x480/13615172_1179147048845014_4906148299995532995_n.jpg?oh=8ac18dfded962404405760d5b366cad6&oe=582774C7)
Another twisted fact: the black man who was killed in Minnesota alerted the police officer that he had a firearm that he was licensed to carry before reaching for his ID, and the police officer supposedly shot him because of concern over said gun. Imagine that was a white guy, and then imagine how the NRA would have responded: screaming that someone was shot while exercising their constitutional right to bear arms. But in this case, with a black man? Not a word. But when the 5 Dallas police officers were killed? Plenty of sympathy for them.
Quote from: Firebird on July 10, 2016, 11:36:31 PM
Another twisted fact: the black man who was killed in Minnesota alerted the police officer that he had a firearm that he was licensed to carry before reaching for his ID, and the police officer supposedly shot him because of concern over said gun. Imagine that was a white guy, and then imagine how the NRA would have responded: screaming that someone was shot while exercising their constitutional right to bear arms. But in this case, with a black man? Not a word. But when the 5 Dallas police officers were killed? Plenty of sympathy for them.
Most police shootings are cops shooting whites. I don't hear the NRA really commenting much on individual cases, black or white.
Quote from: Steeler on July 11, 2016, 04:38:34 AM
Quote from: Firebird on July 10, 2016, 11:36:31 PM
Another twisted fact: the black man who was killed in Minnesota alerted the police officer that he had a firearm that he was licensed to carry before reaching for his ID, and the police officer supposedly shot him because of concern over said gun. Imagine that was a white guy, and then imagine how the NRA would have responded: screaming that someone was shot while exercising their constitutional right to bear arms. But in this case, with a black man? Not a word. But when the 5 Dallas police officers were killed? Plenty of sympathy for them.
Most police shootings are cops shooting whites. I don't hear the NRA really commenting much on individual cases, black or white.
It would be informative to see the death rate by race by police per 100,000 of the population. More white people are killed because there are more white people in America. The issue isn't the absolute number killed but the probability of being killed by race. I don't have the figures to hand but I think a non-white is proportionally more likely to be killed than a white. But do proportionally more blacks live in deprived areas where violent crime is more prevalent? Thus making the police more edgy and likely to shoot first and ask questions later?
One thing is true, this is a complex issue for which there are no sound bite answers.
Some years ago there was a series on Brits working abroad.
One such was an ex-English copper in the LAPD. He and the interviewer were sitting in a patrol car on the edge of a deprived area when a shot rang not, not that close.
The cop barely reacted, just cocked an ear for any more shots I think. The interviewer asked if he was going to try to check on it. His reply went along the lines of:
"No, one shot, we wait for a report from some one or a 911 call. I could drive for miles and not find any trace of the shooting. Not good policy in this area."
Such "fear", some might say justified, of an ethnic group has a long history.
Recent news in the UK says that ethnic minorities are now tending to move out to the more affluent suburbs if they are able, away from their "traditional" inner city areas. This is what integration needs, not the ghetto mentality.
Quote from: Tank on July 11, 2016, 12:52:37 PM
It would be informative to see the death rate by race by police per 100,000 of the population. More white people are killed because there are more white people in America. The issue isn't the absolute number killed but the probability of being killed by race. I don't have the figures to hand but I think a non-white is proportionally more likely to be killed than a white. But do proportionally more blacks live in deprived areas where violent crime is more prevalent? Thus making the police more edgy and likely to shoot first and ask questions later?
One thing is true, this is a complex issue for which there are no sound bite answers.
As I understand it it is a city versus country thing. Don't quite recall where I heard that, though.
In the cities more of the shootings tend to involve black Americans, while outside the cities the prevalence is towards whites.
I think it safe to say American cops are to trigger happy over all and far too poorly trained.
Quote from: Tank on July 11, 2016, 12:52:37 PM
Quote from: Steeler on July 11, 2016, 04:38:34 AM
Quote from: Firebird on July 10, 2016, 11:36:31 PM
Another twisted fact: the black man who was killed in Minnesota alerted the police officer that he had a firearm that he was licensed to carry before reaching for his ID, and the police officer supposedly shot him because of concern over said gun. Imagine that was a white guy, and then imagine how the NRA would have responded: screaming that someone was shot while exercising their constitutional right to bear arms. But in this case, with a black man? Not a word. But when the 5 Dallas police officers were killed? Plenty of sympathy for them.
Most police shootings are cops shooting whites. I don't hear the NRA really commenting much on individual cases, black or white.
It would be informative to see the death rate by race by police per 100,000 of the population. More white people are killed because there are more white people in America. The issue isn't the absolute number killed but the probability of being killed by race. I don't have the figures to hand but I think a non-white is proportionally more likely to be killed than a white. But do proportionally more blacks live in deprived areas where violent crime is more prevalent? Thus making the police more edgy and likely to shoot first and ask questions later?
One thing is true, this is a complex issue for which there are no sound bite answers.
Yes I would agree that a non white is probably more likely to be involved in a police shooting. But you also have to keep in mind that blacks commit over 50 percent of the violent crime, violent criminals I would think would be more likely to end up in a shootout with police.
Quote from: Steeler on July 11, 2016, 02:19:08 PM
Quote from: Tank on July 11, 2016, 12:52:37 PM
Quote from: Steeler on July 11, 2016, 04:38:34 AM
Quote from: Firebird on July 10, 2016, 11:36:31 PM
Another twisted fact: the black man who was killed in Minnesota alerted the police officer that he had a firearm that he was licensed to carry before reaching for his ID, and the police officer supposedly shot him because of concern over said gun. Imagine that was a white guy, and then imagine how the NRA would have responded: screaming that someone was shot while exercising their constitutional right to bear arms. But in this case, with a black man? Not a word. But when the 5 Dallas police officers were killed? Plenty of sympathy for them.
Most police shootings are cops shooting whites. I don't hear the NRA really commenting much on individual cases, black or white.
It would be informative to see the death rate by race by police per 100,000 of the population. More white people are killed because there are more white people in America. The issue isn't the absolute number killed but the probability of being killed by race. I don't have the figures to hand but I think a non-white is proportionally more likely to be killed than a white. But do proportionally more blacks live in deprived areas where violent crime is more prevalent? Thus making the police more edgy and likely to shoot first and ask questions later?
One thing is true, this is a complex issue for which there are no sound bite answers.
Yes I would agree that a non white is probably more likely to be involved in a police shooting. But you also have to keep in mind that blacks commit over 50 percent of the violent crime, violent criminals I would think would be more likely to end up in a shootout with police.
I wonder what the stats, Italians : all other ethnic groups, were during the whole Mafia period when it was mainly Italians committing the violent crimes? Were the cops as twitchy then?
On reflection the Italians were not so visually identifiable, even at night or from a distance, as a person of colour. If the cops were as twitchy a lot of innocent whites would have been shot.
Here's a guy with some stats who says they show that black people brought it on themselves. http://www.dailywire.com/news/7264/5-statistics-you-need-know-about-cops-killing-aaron-bandler (http://www.dailywire.com/news/7264/5-statistics-you-need-know-about-cops-killing-aaron-bandler)
Rap artists will tell you that they were told to write gangsta or get out. Was it all about the ticket sales?
Quote from: Steeler on July 11, 2016, 04:38:34 AM
Most police shootings are cops shooting whites. I don't hear the NRA really commenting much on individual cases, black or white.
--Citation needed.
Quote from: Steeler on July 11, 2016, 02:19:08 PMYes I would agree that a non white is probably more likely to be involved in a police shooting. But you also have to keep in mind that blacks commit over 50 percent of the violent crime, violent criminals I would think would be more likely to end up in a shootout with police.
--Citation needed.
I'm not saying you're wrong, I would just like to see where you're getting the data for these since I've found that getting good data to be very problematic since NRA had successfully unfunded research into gun violence and most police departments report inaccurately. I know there is a lot of bullshit data being shared around by both racists and anti gun control people that is causing a lot of misinformation, some of which matches the stats in your claims.
So if we look at this bunch of data:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shootings/?tid=a_inl
494 white people shot by police against 258 black people. While that is certainly more whites in straight numbers, that would only matter if the populations were also equal. Being that whites are about 72% of the population and blacks are 13% of the population, the numbers don't look so good anymore. If there was no racial problem, we'd expect the amount to reflect the same percentage in both, I.E.: either 709 White shot and 128 blacks shot, or 985 whites shot and 258 blacks shot.
But let's also look at unarmed people being shot by police, 32 whites to 38 blacks. That's before any population adjustments, that's just the raw amount. When we adjust by population it gets much, much worse.
And then there is your second claim, that blacks commit 50% of all violent crimes. I just don't know the stats where you get these numbers from.
https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2014/crime-in-the-u.s.-2014/tables/table-43
Here is some data, not accounting for bad police reporting of course, but you'd have to cherry pick some data to get to the 50% number. But then again, it also doesn't bode well when we adjust for population, but you didn't specify that in your claim. In fact, there ain't much to your claim at all, but I would like to see your data.
The reliable data shows that there is a racial problem.
Quote from: gentle_dissident on July 11, 2016, 05:20:19 PM
Here's a guy with some stats who says they show that black people brought it on themselves. http://www.dailywire.com/news/7264/5-statistics-you-need-know-about-cops-killing-aaron-bandler (http://www.dailywire.com/news/7264/5-statistics-you-need-know-about-cops-killing-aaron-bandler)
Rap artists will tell you that they were told to write gangsta or get out. Was it all about the ticket sales?
I seriously hope that is a joke.
The racist guy seems serious.
I've heard rappers talk about the gangsta life being pushed by producers. I was just wondering if the anonymous private prison letter was true as well.
I've heard on NPR that the police don't keep good records. A guy from the NRA stated on NPR today that he never meant to end research into gun ownership. He just wanted to put a stop to any research that might show the need for gun control. LOL
I didn't intentionally attempt to bait you in Davin, but I knew you couldn't resist.
My first "claim", you yourself cited as well. So good enough?
The second I actually heard Rudy Giuliani speak about couple days ago. Not good enough for you? Don't really care.
Before I replied to this post I said to myself, self, this is the topic that will lead to my banning. Lol. I've avoided these topics because of the nitpicking as was discussed in the future of the forum thread but just couldn't help myself. He he.
Quote from: Steeler on July 11, 2016, 08:17:54 PM
I didn't intentionally attempt to bait you in Davin, but I knew you couldn't resist.
Yeah, you know me and my dislike for perpetuated bullshit.
Quote from: SteelerMy first "claim", you yourself cited as well. So good enough?
Yes, I accept that cede to my point.
Quote from: SteelerThe second I actually heard Rudy Giuliani speak about couple days ago. Not good enough for you? Don't really care.
You don't really care that you're wrong? Alright, no worries, no reason to talk to irrational people who are intentionally being irrational.
Quote from: SteelerBefore I replied to this post I said to myself, self, this is the topic that will lead to my banning. Lol. I've avoided these topics because of the nitpicking as was discussed in the future of the forum thread but just couldn't help myself. He he.
Only when you don't follow the forum rules by preaching like you're doing.
Yup. Preaching. Me thinks anything is preaching in your mind. Even an opinion.
What's wrong with good ole differing opinions? I know, I know. Forum rules and all, down to the letter.
I believe rudy was referring to murders, not all violent crime. According to the FBI the number is actually 49.7 percent of us murders are committed by black race in the statistic I saw.
Steeler, we can nitpick or persuade. I don't think that asking you to provide information on where your statistics came from is nitpicking. I want to believe that your statement is true:
Quote from: Steeler on July 11, 2016, 02:19:08 PM
Yes I would agree that a non white is probably more likely to be involved in a police shooting. But you also have to keep in mind that blacks commit over 50 percent of the violent crime, violent criminals I would think would be more likely to end up in a shootout with police.
...But for some reason, I don't believe it. Please convince me, or persuade me, if that's what you want to do. --With numbers if necessary, or from your own experiences--if you are a black young male in a large city in the United States. If that's not the case, maybe you can speak of your experiences as a law enforcement office that is responsible for maintaining civil peace. If that's not possible either, then provide me with where you got the statement that says, "50% of the violent crimes are committed by blacks." If you can't do that, then maybe you made it up, and that's not right. Especially because you throw the phrase, "Keep in mind..." Right before you said it. That's not something I think we "Should keep in mind."
There is a difference:
Nitpick:
To look for small or unimportant errors or faults, especially in order to criticize unnecessarily. I don't think
Davin is doing that.
Persuade:
Cause (someone) to do something through reasoning or argument. I don't think you're doing that, either...so I can't really agree with you, yet. :-\
I corrected the comment I made. Murders, not all violent crime Mag.
I think the violent crime number total was 29 percent if I'm remembering right. Still disproportionate to the population numbers.
Quote from: Steeler on July 11, 2016, 02:19:08 PM
Quote from: Tank on July 11, 2016, 12:52:37 PM
Quote from: Steeler on July 11, 2016, 04:38:34 AM
Quote from: Firebird on July 10, 2016, 11:36:31 PM
Another twisted fact: the black man who was killed in Minnesota alerted the police officer that he had a firearm that he was licensed to carry before reaching for his ID, and the police officer supposedly shot him because of concern over said gun. Imagine that was a white guy, and then imagine how the NRA would have responded: screaming that someone was shot while exercising their constitutional right to bear arms. But in this case, with a black man? Not a word. But when the 5 Dallas police officers were killed? Plenty of sympathy for them.
Most police shootings are cops shooting whites. I don't hear the NRA really commenting much on individual cases, black or white.
It would be informative to see the death rate by race by police per 100,000 of the population. More white people are killed because there are more white people in America. The issue isn't the absolute number killed but the probability of being killed by race. I don't have the figures to hand but I think a non-white is proportionally more likely to be killed than a white. But do proportionally more blacks live in deprived areas where violent crime is more prevalent? Thus making the police more edgy and likely to shoot first and ask questions later?
One thing is true, this is a complex issue for which there are no sound bite answers.
Yes I would agree that a non white is probably more likely to be involved in a police shooting. But you also have to keep in mind that blacks commit over 50 percent of the violent crime, violent criminals I would think would be more likely to end up in a shootout with police.
I agree. Recognising the real problem, whatever that may be, is the only route to the real answer.
Quote from: Steeler on July 11, 2016, 08:17:54 PM
I didn't intentionally attempt to bait you in Davin, but I knew you couldn't resist.
My first "claim", you yourself cited as well. So good enough?
The second I actually heard Rudy Giuliani speak about couple days ago. Not good enough for you? Don't really care.
Before I replied to this post I said to myself, self, this is the topic that will lead to my banning. Lol. I've avoided these topics because of the nitpicking as was discussed in the future of the forum thread but just couldn't help myself. He he.
When I made the OP it was in the hope that we'd get some differing opinions as I don't live in the USA and would like to read what people say rather than media spin.
I think a little human respect would do wonders for a lot of the problems we face.
Quote from: Tank on July 11, 2016, 10:06:19 PM
Recognising the real problem, whatever that may be, is the only route to the real answer.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/2015/12/10/new-style-of-police-training-aims-to-produce-guardians-not-warriors/ (http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/2015/12/10/new-style-of-police-training-aims-to-produce-guardians-not-warriors/)
It's a start.
Quote from: Tank on July 11, 2016, 10:11:20 PM
Quote from: Steeler on July 11, 2016, 08:17:54 PM
I didn't intentionally attempt to bait you in Davin, but I knew you couldn't resist.
My first "claim", you yourself cited as well. So good enough?
The second I actually heard Rudy Giuliani speak about couple days ago. Not good enough for you? Don't really care.
Before I replied to this post I said to myself, self, this is the topic that will lead to my banning. Lol. I've avoided these topics because of the nitpicking as was discussed in the future of the forum thread but just couldn't help myself. He he.
When I made the OP it was in the hope that we'd get some differing opinions as I don't live in the USA and would like to read what people say rather than media spin.
I totally get that Tank. I didn't mean to turn this ugly, not that it has yet. I can lose some respect for a guy who straight up uses profanity about something I say. I think some of what you say is bullshit, but I wouldn't break that one out on you cuz I have respect for you lol. We can disagree without getting shitty.
Edit for clarification: I was typing fast while busy at work. I shouldn't have said some of what Tank says I think is BS. That is not true.
I thought the pic in his first post was BS. But kinda humorous
Quote from: Steeler on July 11, 2016, 09:48:40 PM
I corrected the comment I made. Murders, not all violent crime Mag.
I think the violent crime number total was 29 percent if I'm remembering right. Still disproportionate to the population numbers.
Ok, well...thank you for that.
...That's a start.
Please continue. :)
Quote from: Davin on July 11, 2016, 08:45:32 PM
Quote from: Steeler on July 11, 2016, 08:17:54 PM
I didn't intentionally attempt to bait you in Davin, but I knew you couldn't resist.
Yeah, you know me and my dislike for perpetuated bullshit.
Quote from: SteelerMy first "claim", you yourself cited as well. So good enough?
Yes, I accept that cede to my point.
Uh, that wasn't a cede. You agreed with what I said. Nice try though.
http://m.townhall.com/tipsheet/justinholcomb/2016/07/11/first-black-miss-alabama-i-dont-feel-sad-for-the-officers-that-lost-their-livesshooter-was-a-martyr-n2191234?utm_content=buffer07271&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer (http://m.townhall.com/tipsheet/justinholcomb/2016/07/11/first-black-miss-alabama-i-dont-feel-sad-for-the-officers-that-lost-their-livesshooter-was-a-martyr-n2191234?utm_content=buffer07271&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer)
Damn, this crap doesn't help matters.
I'm bored right now so I'll continue rambling.
Someone mentioned earlier police training as a potential problem. I think it is a very big piece of the problem.
I understand that there have been many instances of officers being ambushed on the side of the road by bad guys that simply don't want to go to jail, but there has got to be a balance.
There are too many (overtrained?) officers freaking out over simple movements of someone who they stop for easy stuff like traffic violations. Being a cop can be dangerous business. I get that, but a big time change in tactic is necessary.
And I'm not talking about cases where a guy attacks a police officer then runs away only to be shot in the back. Bad cop, yes indeed, but no free pass from me if you are dumb enough to start an altercation or resist.
http://www.bizpacreview.com/2016/07/10/riveting-post-by-black-police-officer-confronts-blm-with-raw-honesty-and-every-american-needs-to-see-it-363067 (http://www.bizpacreview.com/2016/07/10/riveting-post-by-black-police-officer-confronts-blm-with-raw-honesty-and-every-american-needs-to-see-it-363067)
Another very good read from a black police officer.
Steeler, you're posting a lot of stuff, what is it that you really want to say?
I'm just curious. You're posting like Pahu, right now. You're posting links, but I don't know what it is that you want to say.
...I know this is the "Makes you think..." Thread, but please, just make it easier for some of us and just say what you want to say. :-\
:grin:
I know that people of all races need to mature, chill, and party on. I think that when there's talk of unity, we worry we won't be holding police or criminals responsible due to amnesty. That would be a hell of a lot of forgiveness. Maybe we'll bring back stocks. There's a sure way to start a dialogue.
Quote from: Magdalena on July 12, 2016, 04:18:13 AM
Steeler, you're posting a lot of stuff, what is it that you really want to say?
I'm just curious. You're posting like Pahu, right now. You're posting links, but I don't know what it is that you want to say.
...I know this is the "Makes you think..." Thread, but please, just make it easier for some of us and just say what you want to say. :-\
:grin:
I'm not trying to be mysterious or anything, really. Lol
Maybe I just suck at posting. Yeah, that's most likely.
Not trying to derail the OP here but my general thoughts on the police shooting rallies, or should I say anti police rallies are that I think the BLM peeps look like idiots. Well not all, but the thuggish ones sure do make the legit ones look bad.
You have them forming massive human blockades that are shutting down interstates. C'mon people. How is this helping your cause?
I've heard them say not to take the actions of the Dallas shooter as a representation of all of them, yet preach against all cops for the actions of a few.
As for the meme in the first post, it's funny but ridiculous IMO.
I've never seen the NRA attempt to push assault weapons (hate that description) on anyone, only support your right to legally own them.
They are not anti government, but support your right to own weapons to defend against a tyrannical one. There was no tyranny with the Dallas police officers that were murdered, so that meme makes no sense, just something someone whipped up to stir the pot.
Oh, and Tank mentioned the media spin. I believe the media absolutely loves this stuff. Anything to create more issues.
If these most recent shootings had been white guys that were shot, do you think we would have even heard about them? I don't think we would.
But that's all just my opinion.
Quote from: Steeler on July 12, 2016, 06:25:17 AM
...
But that's all just my opinion.
Amen!
:lol:
Maybe we'll talk some more tomorrow, I'm gonna go to sleep now. :computerwave:
I think America is a harsh society compared to Europe Canada and Aus, it's welfare, health and probably education systems seem the product of a different philosophy.
The dog eat dog approach may be dynamic producing great things but I don't think I'd choose to pay the price.
And then there's the guns, I heard of a visiting US doctor attending a local conference, apparently he'd treated more gunshot victims in the last fortnight than our country has in a year. No I can't verify that, well maybe I could but life's too short.
It must be like a war zone for a cop there, in some areas anyway. Maybe the job isn't attractive to good people that can do something else.
Oh I haven't offered any solution at all, errr, how about a universal surveillance network and lots of drones, oh and ban that angry rap music, and the drones could detect those nasty angry drugs and deal with anyone that contains them, and spend the trillions wasted on weapons and wars lifting the poor from their squalor, than they mightn't be so angry and they'll listen to better music and take nicer drugs. You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one, Kum bay ya, my Lord, kum bay ya.
QuoteGive me your hungry, your tired, your poor I'll piss on 'em
That's what the Statue of Bigotry says
Your poor huddled masses
Let's club 'em to death
And get it over with and just dump 'em on the boulevard
Quote from: Bad Penny II on July 12, 2016, 12:08:27 PM
I think America is a harsh society compared to Europe Canada and Aus, it's welfare, health and probably education systems seem the product of a different philosophy.
The dog eat dog approach may be dynamic producing great things but I don't think I'd choose to pay the price.
And then there's the guns, I heard of a visiting US doctor attending a local conference, apparently he'd treated more gunshot victims in the last fortnight than our country has in a year. No I can't verify that, well maybe I could but life's too short.
It must be like a war zone for a cop there, in some areas anyway. Maybe the job isn't attractive to good people that can do something else.
Oh I haven't offered any solution at all, errr, how about a universal surveillance network and lots of drones, oh and ban that angry rap music, and the drones could detect those nasty angry drugs and deal with anyone that contains them, and spend the trillions wasted on weapons and wars lifting the poor from their squalor, than they mightn't be so angry and they'll listen to better music and take nicer drugs. You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one, Kum bay ya, my Lord, kum bay ya.
QuoteGive me your hungry, your tired, your poor I'll piss on 'em
That's what the Statue of Bigotry says
Your poor huddled masses
Let's club 'em to death
And get it over with and just dump 'em on the boulevard
I am sure there are good aspects of life in America - but not sure how many can afford them.
Some time ago there was a radio series by the BBC about life in America. They tried to get a balance but trust any media to look for the controversial bits.
The item that stuck in my mind was the "Health Fair", a group of doctors, dentists and opticians travelling round the Midwest offering free or very cheap inspections and treatment - bit like MSF, all voluntary. There was, IIRC, opposition to this scheme from the "private" doctors and insurance companies. Why?! These people are in this state because they cannot afford private care or insurance!
An English dentist said that he was overloaded with people needing serious treatment, even operations.
I am not going to moan about the National Insurance system or the few quid I have to pay for dental care ever again. Hooray for the NHS with all its faults. And dark destinies for those politicians trying to crash it.
Quote from: Gloucester on July 12, 2016, 12:45:58 PMThere was, IIRC, opposition to this scheme from the "private" doctors and insurance companies. Why?! These people are in this state because they cannot afford private care or insurance!
I'm inclined to think health shouldn't be a field for the takers, there's law and accounting and marketing and the military industrial complex for them. The prospect of a comfortable living and the opportunity to do good, lots of government educational subsidy, that'd attract a better, a caring class of people. I of course have no support for that assertion, I'm preaching again.
Quote from: Bad Penny II on July 12, 2016, 01:10:29 PM
Quote from: Gloucester on July 12, 2016, 12:45:58 PMThere was, IIRC, opposition to this scheme from the "private" doctors and insurance companies. Why?! These people are in this state because they cannot afford private care or insurance!
I'm inclined to think health shouldn't be a field for the takers, there's law and accounting and marketing and the military industrial complex for them. The prospect of a comfortable living and the opportunity to do good, lots of government educational subsidy, that'd attract a better, a caring class of people. I of course have no support for that assertion, I'm preaching again.
Um, tbat lost me somewhere BP III, which assertion are you agin?
Could it be said that, in terms of equality across the racial, welfare and economic spectrums America is the worst example in the Western world?
Perhaps with Tory governed Britain coming up fast into second place, in all but racial problems on tbe US scale, but . . .
Quote from: Steeler on July 11, 2016, 08:55:54 PM
Yup. Preaching. Me thinks anything is preaching in your mind. Even an opinion.
What's wrong with good ole differing opinions? I know, I know. Forum rules and all, down to the letter.
When you don't back up those "opinions" when challenged, like you did when I challenged them, that is preaching. I'm glad that you know that, but I don't understand how you would think that I would think that anything is preaching in my mind.
Hey, I get it. You don't like the what the facts show, so you'd rather just call your incorrect assertions as merely opinions. That's fine, I'm fine with that. Me calling what you said, "bullshit," didn't make it bullshit. It was bullshit before I said anything, and it would still be bullshit if I hadn't called it "bullshit." That's fine with me too, I'm not stopping you from expressing your bullshit, I'm just pointing out that it is bullshit.
I corrected the numbers, doesn't change the fact.
Quote from: Steeler on July 12, 2016, 04:54:11 PM
I corrected the numbers, doesn't change the fact.
What fact? The fact that, Black bodies are systematically linked to criminality, and perceived as threatening even when unarmed, following police orders, or being manhandled by two officers?
(http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2016/07/structural-racism-won-diminish-time-160711065351686.html)
Protesting, it gets people talking about things we don't want to talk about. In this case, it's about getting people to talk about how racism is alive and kicking in the USA. Who cares if like you said, "the thuggish ones sure do make the legit ones look bad?" Back then, some people thought it was the "dirty-long hair-hippies" who made the legit ones look bad...But they got people talking about the Vietnam War. :smilenod:
Quote from: Steeler on July 12, 2016, 04:54:11 PM
I corrected the numbers, doesn't change the fact.
I admire the swift edit,
Steeler. Seriously. :thumbsup:
The wrong leadership has been in this country since the start. The people are convinced they cannot act toward something if they are not an authority and depend on leadership. This mechanism works because being a leader in the US means being a slave owner. The considerate intelligent individuals all ran off to organic farms.
Quote from: gentle_dissident on July 12, 2016, 07:24:58 PM
The wrong leadership has been in this country since the start. The people are convinced they cannot act toward something if they are not an authority and depend on leadership. This mechanism works because being a leader in the US means being a slave owner. The considerate intelligent individuals all ran off to organic farms.
GD, I will be copying this to a new topic in "Politics", er, forgotten what I called it :-[ , look for something asking what sort of government we need!
Saves the current theme of this topic getting messed up.
Quote from: Recusant link=topic=14555.emsg334547#msg334547 date=1468345821
Quote from: Steeler on July 12, 2016, 04:54:11 PM
I corrected the numbers, doesn't change the fact.
I admire the swift edit, Steeler. Seriously. :thumbsup:
Thanks.I heard your footsteps.
Quote from: Magdalena on July 12, 2016, 06:39:44 PM
Quote from: Steeler on July 12, 2016, 04:54:11 PM
I corrected the numbers, doesn't change the fact.
What fact? The fact that, Black bodies are systematically linked to criminality, and perceived as threatening even when unarmed, following police orders, or being manhandled by two officers?
(http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2016/07/structural-racism-won-diminish-time-160711065351686.html)
Protesting, it gets people talking about things we don't want to talk about. In this case, it's about getting people to talk about how racism is alive and kicking in the USA. Who cares if like you said, "the thuggish ones sure do make the legit ones look bad?" Back then, some people thought it was the "dirty-long hair-hippies" who made the legit ones look bad...But they got people talking about the Vietnam War. :smilenod:
Protesting is perfectly fine. Rioting, looting, blocking interstates while climbing on people's cars, not so much.
Quote from: Steeler on July 12, 2016, 07:57:29 PM
Quote from: Magdalena on July 12, 2016, 06:39:44 PM
Quote from: Steeler on July 12, 2016, 04:54:11 PM
I corrected the numbers, doesn't change the fact.
What fact? The fact that, Black bodies are systematically linked to criminality, and perceived as threatening even when unarmed, following police orders, or being manhandled by two officers?
(http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2016/07/structural-racism-won-diminish-time-160711065351686.html)
Protesting, it gets people talking about things we don't want to talk about. In this case, it's about getting people to talk about how racism is alive and kicking in the USA. Who cares if like you said, "the thuggish ones sure do make the legit ones look bad?" Back then, some people thought it was the "dirty-long hair-hippies" who made the legit ones look bad...But they got people talking about the Vietnam War. :smilenod:
Protesting is perfectly fine. Rioting, looting, blocking interstates while climbing on people's cars, not so much.
OK. We agree that racism is alive and kicking--unfortunately, it needs to stop, and that protesting against racism in the USA is perfectly fine. Destroying private property during a protest is not right. Neither is posting wrong statistics online. --That can start a different "type of fire, or riot" on the internet. It's...well..."irresponsible" when you do that sort of thing.
Quote from: Steeler on July 12, 2016, 07:50:18 PM
Quote from: Recusant link=topic=14555.emsg334547#msg334547 date=1468345821
Quote from: Steeler on July 12, 2016, 04:54:11 PM
I corrected the numbers, doesn't change the fact.
I admire the swift edit, Steeler. Seriously. :thumbsup:
Thanks.I heard your footsteps.
I was pitter-pattering around, but not headed in your direction, so to speak. The original comment would have been fine, but I think your edit is more cogent. :blue smiley:
Quote from: Recusant on July 12, 2016, 11:09:56 PM
Quote from: Steeler on July 12, 2016, 07:50:18 PM
Quote from: Recusant link=topic=14555.emsg334547#msg334547 date=1468345821
Quote from: Steeler on July 12, 2016, 04:54:11 PM
I corrected the numbers, doesn't change the fact.
I admire the swift edit, Steeler. Seriously. :thumbsup:
Thanks.I heard your footsteps.
I was pitter-pattering around, but not headed in your direction, so to speak. The original comment would have been fine, but I think your edit is more cogent. :blue smiley:
Ok cool. I know it's a little more serious around these parts than other sites I visit. I felt after I posted it that it could have been seen as teetering on the line so I got rid of it. ;D
Quote from: Magdalena on July 12, 2016, 06:39:44 PM
Quote from: Steeler on July 12, 2016, 04:54:11 PM
I corrected the numbers, doesn't change the fact.
What fact? The fact that, Black bodies are systematically linked to criminality, and perceived as threatening even when unarmed, following police orders, or being manhandled by two officers?
(http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2016/07/structural-racism-won-diminish-time-160711065351686.html)
Protesting, it gets people talking about things we don't want to talk about. In this case, it's about getting people to talk about how racism is alive and kicking in the USA. Who cares if like you said, "the thuggish ones sure do make the legit ones look bad?" Back then, some people thought it was the "dirty-long hair-hippies" who made the legit ones look bad...But they got people talking about the Vietnam War. :smilenod:
Excuse my ignorance, but what is the blue?
Sarcasm I assume? A site I admin on we use purple but just checking.
Quote from: Gloucester on July 12, 2016, 07:47:48 PM
Quote from: gentle_dissident on July 12, 2016, 07:24:58 PM
The wrong leadership has been in this country since the start. The people are convinced they cannot act toward something if they are not an authority and depend on leadership. This mechanism works because being a leader in the US means being a slave owner. The considerate intelligent individuals all ran off to organic farms.
GD, I will be copying this to a new topic in "Politics", er, forgotten what I called it :-[ , look for something asking what sort of government we need!
Saves the current theme of this topic getting messed up.
I thought it fit the general reader for this thread, but I was thinking of Bad Penny when I replied.
Quote from: Steeler on July 13, 2016, 01:31:44 AM
Quote from: Magdalena on July 12, 2016, 06:39:44 PM
Quote from: Steeler on July 12, 2016, 04:54:11 PM
I corrected the numbers, doesn't change the fact.
What fact? The fact that, Black bodies are systematically linked to criminality, and perceived as threatening even when unarmed, following police orders, or being manhandled by two officers?
(http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2016/07/structural-racism-won-diminish-time-160711065351686.html)
Protesting, it gets people talking about things we don't want to talk about. In this case, it's about getting people to talk about how racism is alive and kicking in the USA. Who cares if like you said, "the thuggish ones sure do make the legit ones look bad?" Back then, some people thought it was the "dirty-long hair-hippies" who made the legit ones look bad...But they got people talking about the Vietnam War. :smilenod:
Excuse my ignorance, but what is the blue?
Sarcasm I assume? A site I admin on we use purple but just checking.
No, it's not sarcasm. We don't have a sarcasm font--Yet. If you "click" on it, it's a link that takes you to an article called:
Structural racism in the US won't diminish with time. Written by: Khaled A Beydoun
Khaled A Beydoun is an assistant professor of law at the Barry University Dwayne O Andreas School of Law.
That's a quote from the article, here's the full quote:
QuoteBlack bodies are systematically linked to criminality, and perceived as threatening even when unarmed, following police orders, or being manhandled by two officers.
This "weaponization of blackness" is a cornerstone of the structural racism that pervades police departments in Baton Rouge and Falcon Heights, and law enforcement agencies between and beyond them.
It is the very lifeline of the growing mistrust for police in black communities, and the crux of the marching orders driving the Black Lives Matter movement forward.
I don't know what
you meant when you said, "I corrected the numbers, doesn't change the fact."
When the number was 29% and you changed it to 50%, it changes the way we see blacks.
Like the author of the article said, "black people are going to be systematically linked to criminality, and perceived as threatening even when unarmed, following police orders, or being manhandled by two officers."
I forgot to mention that I also agree with what you said, "Being a cop can be dangerous business." You also said, "...no free pass from me if you are dumb enough to start an altercation or resist." I also agree with you, one should not "challenge" a police officer, but then again, maybe it's fear and growing mistrust for police in black communities that make them, for lack of a better word, "run."
In the United States, we have the Judicial branch, the Legislative branch and the Executive branch. I believe the police department belongs to the Executive branch. The Executive branch of our Government is in charge of making sure that the laws of the United States are obeyed. You said, "There are too many (overtrained?) officers freaking out over simple movements of someone who they stop for easy stuff like traffic violations." When they "freak out" they are becoming the law makers, the enforcers of the law, the judges, and they give the death sentence in a matter of minutes. They can't do that!
Quote from: Magdalena on July 13, 2016, 03:25:30 AM
When they "freak out" they are becoming the law makers, the enforcers of the law, the judges, and they give the death sentence in a matter of minutes. They can't do that!
Preach it sister.
Ok my tired ass wasnt paying attention. I feel a little like a dumb ass for not recognizing that that was a link, but I'll blame it on my failing eyesight and using my phone for the net most of the time. :o
My point with the 29 percent, which I believe a few years old stat and think more recently was in the mid thirties, was simply to show that those numbers could suggest or cause people to hold the belief that blacks are more violent by nature.
Quote from: Steeler on July 13, 2016, 03:59:50 AM
Ok my tired ass wasnt paying attention. I feel a little like a dumb ass for not recognizing that that was a link, but I'll blame it on my failing eyesight and using my phone for the net most of the time. :o
:therethere:
:lol:
I know what you mean.
Quote from: Steeler on July 13, 2016, 03:59:50 AM
My point with the 29 percent, which I believe a few years old stat and think more recently was in the mid thirties, was simply to show that those numbers could suggest or cause people to hold the belief that blacks are more violent by nature.
Yes, they "could" suggest or cause people to hold the belief that blacks are far more violent by nature. When you changed it to 50% it made it look a lot worse. Do you believe that blacks are far more violent by nature? I sincerely don't think so.
Quote from: gentle_dissident on July 13, 2016, 03:53:50 AM
Quote from: Magdalena on July 13, 2016, 03:25:30 AM
When they "freak out" they are becoming the law makers, the enforcers of the law, the judges, and they give the death sentence in a matter of minutes. They can't do that!
Preach it sister.
:grin:
Sorry, I get a little carried away.
I live in Los Angeles, CA. :shifty:
Quote from: gentle_dissident on July 13, 2016, 03:53:50 AM
Quote from: Magdalena on July 13, 2016, 03:25:30 AM
When they "freak out" they are becoming the law makers, the enforcers of the law, the judges, and they give the death sentence in a matter of minutes. They can't do that!
Preach it sister.
Agreed.
Not to further derail but it reminds me of a time I was stopped for speeding (one of many) and had a young officer get very close to freaking out.
After he stopped me and very quickly approached my passenger side, which I wasn't expecting, I realized he would likely be able to see my handgun which was tucked between my driver's seat and center console.
After asking for my license and registration, while keeping my hands on the wheel, I informed him that I had a legal firearm and that I was just letting him know because I didn't want him to suddenly see it as I was getting him the paperwork and have him think I was reaching for it.
He got really jumpy with his hand on his gun barking orders while a second officer (a little older and much calmer) removed more from the vehicle.
No biggy as he quickly figured out I was no threat. All ended well with him thanking me for handling it like I did, and no ticket, with a friendly discussion of guns before we parted.
I can imagine how differently that could have went down had I been a rough looking character driving a crappy car and not bothering to inform him of the weapon.
Quote from: Magdalena on July 13, 2016, 04:06:47 AM
Quote from: Steeler on July 13, 2016, 03:59:50 AM
Ok my tired ass wasnt paying attention. I feel a little like a dumb ass for not recognizing that that was a link, but I'll blame it on my failing eyesight and using my phone for the net most of the time. :o
:therethere:
:lol:
I know what you mean.
Quote from: Steeler on July 13, 2016, 03:59:50 AM
My point with the 29 percent, which I believe a few years old stat and think more recently was in the mid thirties, was simply to show that those numbers could suggest or cause people to hold the belief that blacks are more violent by nature.
Yes, they "could" suggest or cause people to hold the belief that blacks are far more violent by nature. When you changed it to 50% it made it look a lot worse. Do you believe that blacks are far more violent by nature? I sincerely don't think so.
Do I believe blacks are more violent by nature? No.
I believe it isn't the person or race that makes you violent, but the environment you are brought up in. Poor parts of a city will be more violent, black or white part of town, doesn't matter.
Quote from: Steeler on July 13, 2016, 04:25:46 AM
...
I believe it isn't the person or race that makes you violent, but the environment you are brought up in. Poor parts of a city will be more violent, black or white part of town, doesn't matter.
That's another topic.
Perhaps you would like to discuss it with our dear
Davin? :snicker:
:secrets1: Now you know that if he posts something in blue--it's not sarcasm. ;D
Quote from: Magdalena on July 13, 2016, 06:09:25 AM
Quote from: Steeler on July 13, 2016, 04:25:46 AM
...
I believe it isn't the person or race that makes you violent, but the environment you are brought up in. Poor parts of a city will be more violent, black or white part of town, doesn't matter.
That's another topic.
Perhaps you would like to discuss it with our dear Davin? :snicker:
:secrets1: Now you know that if he posts something in blue--it's not sarcasm. ;D
:thumbsup:
Quote
Do I believe blacks are more violent by nature? No.
I believe it isn't the person or race that makes you violent, but the environment you are brought up in. Poor parts of a city will be more violent, black or white part of town, doesn't matter.
I am not a sociology major but I can not help but believe in Steelers contention. The grim reality is that much of the black community has not yet been delivered from its depths. Some of us are trying our damnedest to do some good things about that social and economic disengagement. Too many of us are not encouraging the black community ( or the poorer Hispanic community) to pull up their bootstraps. Shamefully, there are those who resist any such acts of compassion, common decency, and real world reality. A few, thankfully very few, cops and others in authority treat people of color as suspect. This is not to say that certain elements of the "others" are not complicit in crime and socially inappropriate behavior....but that gets us back to the above quote, does it not?
I think we should take a break right now, let's watch cartoons for a while. :tellmemore:
This one never gets old:
Quote from: Magdalena on July 15, 2016, 06:33:14 AM
I think we should take a break right now, let's watch cartoons for a while. :tellmemore:
This one never gets old:
I wonder if it would be possible to make an animated "Brief History" that would push Moore's agenda, yet be accurate? Hmm, maybe he didn't care about accuracy. Nah, he was just in a hurry and didn't have time for accuracy. Yeah, that's the ticket.
Yeah, a lot of these cartoons are done in a hurry.
Here's another one.
Quote from: Magdalena on July 15, 2016, 03:21:58 PM
Yeah, a lot of these cartoons are done in a hurry.
Here's another one.
Seen that before, but it does not dim its message seeing it again.
Things have not changed, and probably never will until humanity grows up . . . If ever.
Quote from: Magdalena on July 15, 2016, 03:21:58 PM
Yeah, a lot of these cartoons are done in a hurry.
Here's another one.
Given that the "This Land is Mine" video doesn't really attempt to do anything more than show the succession of groups that have claimed the area known as Israel and/or Palestine, and the fact that its history (like that of pretty much every other region) includes regular outbreaks of violence, I don't think it's particularly inaccurate.
On the other hand, there were plenty of things I noticed in the Moore video that are outright misrepresentations of history. One early in the thing that doesn't help his agenda and is relatively innocuous in that it merely repeats standard United States mythology: It says that the Pilgrims came to America because they were "afraid of being persecuted." In fact, before they made the decision to come to America they had been living in the Netherlands for some time, where they were entirely free to practice religion as they wanted--they were not really in fear of being persecuted. Their decision to emigrate to America was mostly based on a desire to improve their lot in life, as well as a fear that their descendants would assimilate into the culture of the Netherlands. They also saw an opportunity to convert the Indians to their religion. There was some worry that if the Netherlands went to war with Spain and Spain succeeded in retaking the Netherlands, the Spanish authorities could come down on them, but that was well down on the list, and not an immediate concern. See Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilgrim_Fathers#Decision_to_leave_Holland) for more detail.
Moore could have just said that the Pilgrims came to America because they wanted a better life, which would have been much more accurate, and would not have taken any more time to say than what he did say. I chose that statement in his cartoon because I'm not particularly interested in getting into his political agenda, but there are other inaccurate representations that support that agenda.
Maybe I'm just following the fabled ethos of this site with my nitpicking, but I've always had a problem with Moore's willingness to play fast and loose with the truth while he sneers at the hypocrisy and dishonesty of those he opposes. Yes, many or most of them are dishonest hypocrites, but he doesn't do himself any credit when he engages in dishonesty himself. He doesn't really do his cause (some of which I agree with) any credit, either.
Quote from: Recusant on July 15, 2016, 05:36:47 PMMaybe I'm just following the fabled ethos of this site with my nitpicking, but I've always had a problem with Moore's willingness to play fast and loose with the truth while he sneers at the hypocrisy and dishonesty of those he opposes. Yes, many or most of them are dishonest hypocrites, but he doesn't do himself any credit when he engages in dishonesty himself. He doesn't really do his cause (some of which I agree with) any credit, either.
I dislike Moore's methods as well. The "This Land is Mine" video I have less of a problem with because it's following facts while maintaining a theme and asrtistic style to demonstrate a point. But Moore, (well I never watched Bowling for Columbine, so that cartoon annoyed me when I just watched it), seems to be OK with flubbing the facts an cherry picking reality just like hi opponents, and maybe that's the point, but personally I don't like it. There are enough facts that a person doesn't need to misrepresent reality to hold a position for better gun controls. And if there aren't enough facts, then maybe one's position needs to change. But that cartoon moved around historical events to form a narrative, and I really don't like that, especially when it just wasn't necessary.
I agree, the video doesn't cover the last 240 years of US history. You can't do that in a video that lasts 3 minutes and 18 seconds. A lot was left out! I think he made it for those people who didn't like history class and didn't learn much about it as they got older. I think it's some type of syllabus to make people talk about certain things he felt, for some reason, were important to him:
The Pilgrims
Native Americans
Salem witch trials
The US Constitution
Black slavery
President Lincoln and the Civil War
The NRA and the KKK
Segregation of blacks and the Civil Rights Movement
I'm I missing anything?
Moore's video reminds me of the song, "We Didn't Start the Fire" by Billy Joel. It's a song about 100 headline events between 1949, and 1989. I can't remember where I heard it, but a teacher actually used the song as a history class syllabus.—Cool. 8)
Thinking about songs in America, especially country and western, here are a few titles to ponder. (http://www.downstream.ca/country1.htm)This list is by no means exhaustive. One does wonder . . .
All I Want From You (Is Away)
All My Exes Live In Texas
All the Guys that Turn Me On Turn Me Down
Am I Double Parked by the Curbstone of Your Heart? (courtesy of Michael)
Double Parked Heart by Jim Pollock (BMI) (Could this be the same song?)
An Old Flame Can't Hold A Candle To You
Are You Drinkin With Me Jesus? (courtesy of Sylvester)
"Does your head pound Jesus as hung over you do rise....how does paradise look Jesus, through holy bloodshot eyes...
Should we take a cab home Jesus...aw man we can hoof it from here...
I know you can walk on the water but can you walk on this much beer?"
Are You on the Top 40 of the Lord? (courtesy of Joel)
At the Gas Station of Love, I Got the Self Service Pump (courtesy of Barry)
Beauty is Only Skin Deep, but Ugly Goes Clean to the Bone (courtesy of Ken)
Billy Broke My Heart at Walgreens and I Cried All the Way to Sears
Quote from: Magdalena on July 13, 2016, 04:09:54 AM
Quote from: gentle_dissident on July 13, 2016, 03:53:50 AM
Quote from: Magdalena on July 13, 2016, 03:25:30 AM
When they "freak out" they are becoming the law makers, the enforcers of the law, the judges, and they give the death sentence in a matter of minutes. They can't do that!
Preach it sister.
:grin:
Sorry, I get a little carried away.
I live in Los Angeles, CA. :shifty:
I was there in March - I think I saw you. Did you collect enuf coins at the traffic light to get lunch? I was in a tour bus so I couldn't help.
What's controversial about "All my exes live in Texas"? Catchy song by George Strait. Just about ex-girlfriends.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 15, 2016, 09:13:45 PM
What's controversial about "All my exes live in Texas"? Catchy song by George Strait. Just about ex-girlfriends.
No pathos due to the fact he only has exes?
Quote from: Magdalena on July 15, 2016, 08:02:05 PM
I agree, the video doesn't cover the last 240 years of US history. You can't do that in a video that lasts 3 minutes and 18 seconds. A lot was left out! I think he made it for those people who didn't like history class and didn't learn much about it as they got older. I think it's some type of syllabus to make people talk about certain things he felt, for some reason, were important to him:
The Pilgrims
Native Americans
Salem witch trials
The US Constitution
Black slavery
President Lincoln and the Civil War
The NRA and the KKK
Segregation of blacks and the Civil Rights Movement
I'm I missing anything?
I think that if it just listed things like that, then it would have been fine. But the order of events when the narrator "then this other thing" then stretches in some case the reasons behind why people choose those things.
While the shitty treatment Native Americans by the pilgrims was horrible, it didn't start with them, it started with Columbus long before the pilgrims set foot there. But by watching the video, it makes it seem like everything was fine with Native Americans until the Pilgrims showed up. The video says they killed them all, but that removes the other time America acted shitty in its expansion out west. It could have just said, "they killed them" instead of "they killed them all." And then it repeated that it was genocide, leaving no room for "figure of speech" wiggle room.
I honestly don't know all that much about witches in general around the time of the Salem Witch Trials, but I got the impression that it was not a common event. If I trust the cartoon, it looks like it was a widespread thing. I'd have to look it up to find out more, but with all the other things in the cartoon, I think that this too was misrepresented.
The war for independence wasn't just Americans killing the British, as the cartoon made it seem. The over-simplification there made me cringe. They knew that war was the most likely result of declaring independence, but to pare that down to just "then they killed the British for their freedom," is very wrong and I think shows that the cartoon cares more about the point it was trying to make than reality.
There is a whole lot of history that involved a lot of negotiations that when into the US constitution, it wasn't like all Americans nor even the people that signed it were completely happy with it. It took several attempts over many years. The founding fathers knew they needed to solidify a government when they declared their independence, then there was the war, the US (not the name yet, but whatever), barely won, and then they started trying come up with a system of Government. They all compromised into an agreement. To say that any one thing was the result of a single issue is, at least I think, misleading. The first twelve amendments all went in at the same time with much debate, it wasn't like the 2nd one was just added just so that white men could own guns.
Black slavery was another thing that bugged me about the presentation. We know that it happened and that it was extremely bad, but with the "then slavery" thing the video makes it seem like it was next in line in a series of events when it was something that had been going on long before America fought for its independence. But the "then this" makes it look like something that it was not. The truth is bad enough, but they went with a misrepresentation instead.
I also don't think the KKK was formed for any reason close to what the cartoon portrayed. I'm not a fan of straw men, and the real stuff behind the KKK is so much worse than what was presented anyway. It doesn't make sense to straw man the KKK when the real thing would have made a better point anyway.
And then the NRA, it had humble beginnings that I don't think are accurately represented in the cartoon. It's not like the NRA started as a national power house that helps spoon feed weapons manufacturers, but that's exactly what the cartoon implies. It started as something small and for good reasons, to teach people gun safety. Then years later is was warped into the horrible organization it is today, even though most of its members are decent people.
I mean, I'm behind the movement for better gun control, but as always, I don't like misrepresenting things just to make a point, even if I agree with the point. I get just as bugged by Moore's cartoon as I do when I watch pretty much any clip from Fox News. There's just so much wrong information presented in misleading ways that it takes much longer to unpack and correct it. That's why I like Jon Stewart, there is still a joke to be made, but at least the presentation felt more honest. The Daily Show is a good example that you don't need to misrepresent the facts in order to make a point or a joke, or to show that someone or some organization is being ridiculous.
I didn't like the cartoon because I don't want there to be two sides that resort to the same level of fact distortion with the only difference being what side of an issue they sit on. I want people to base their decisions on as accurate an understanding of reality as they can get.
^^
Nice, Davin, looks like you were paying attention in history class. ;) Not everyone did, that's why they don't know why some things are the way they are today.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 15, 2016, 09:08:00 PM
Quote from: Magdalena on July 13, 2016, 04:09:54 AM
Quote from: gentle_dissident on July 13, 2016, 03:53:50 AM
Quote from: Magdalena on July 13, 2016, 03:25:30 AM
When they "freak out" they are becoming the law makers, the enforcers of the law, the judges, and they give the death sentence in a matter of minutes. They can't do that!
Preach it sister.
:grin:
Sorry, I get a little carried away.
I live in Los Angeles, CA. :shifty:
I was there in March - I think I saw you. Did you collect enuf coins at the traffic light to get lunch? I was in a tour bus so I couldn't help.
Yes, that was me. :grin:
No, I didn't collect enuf coins at the traffic light to get lunch. The Po-Po approached me, I said, "Don't you try to pull a Rodney King on me!" I pulled out my cell phone and started recording them. They left me alone. :nu-uh:
Quote from: Magdalena on July 15, 2016, 10:21:55 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 15, 2016, 09:08:00 PM
Quote from: Magdalena on July 13, 2016, 04:09:54 AM
Quote from: gentle_dissident on July 13, 2016, 03:53:50 AM
Quote from: Magdalena on July 13, 2016, 03:25:30 AM
When they "freak out" they are becoming the law makers, the enforcers of the law, the judges, and they give the death sentence in a matter of minutes. They can't do that!
Preach it sister.
:grin:
Sorry, I get a little carried away.
I live in Los Angeles, CA. :shifty:
I was there in March - I think I saw you. Did you collect enuf coins at the traffic light to get lunch? I was in a tour bus so I couldn't help.
Yes, that was me. :grin:
No, I didn't collect enuf coins at the traffic light to get lunch. The Po-Po approached me, I said, "Don't you try to pull a Rodney King on me!" I pulled out my cell phone and started recording them. They left me alone. :nu-uh:
Attagirl! Pagans' lives matter!
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 16, 2016, 12:39:46 AM
Quote from: Magdalena on July 15, 2016, 10:21:55 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 15, 2016, 09:08:00 PM
Quote from: Magdalena on July 13, 2016, 04:09:54 AM
Quote from: gentle_dissident on July 13, 2016, 03:53:50 AM
Quote from: Magdalena on July 13, 2016, 03:25:30 AM
When they "freak out" they are becoming the law makers, the enforcers of the law, the judges, and they give the death sentence in a matter of minutes. They can't do that!
Preach it sister.
:grin:
Sorry, I get a little carried away.
I live in Los Angeles, CA. :shifty:
I was there in March - I think I saw you. Did you collect enuf coins at the traffic light to get lunch? I was in a tour bus so I couldn't help.
Yes, that was me. :grin:
No, I didn't collect enuf coins at the traffic light to get lunch. The Po-Po approached me, I said, "Don't you try to pull a Rodney King on me!" I pulled out my cell phone and started recording them. They left me alone. :nu-uh:
Attagirl! Pagans' lives matter!
My attorney has asked me to read the following statement:
"I can neither confirm nor deny that I agree with your statement regarding Pagans, your statement is extremely accurate, and that your statement made me LOL. –Thank you."
:grin:
Hey,
Davin,
I don't know who, Jon Stewart is, so I googled The Daily Show With Jon Stewart. (I don't watch too much TV) Not even GOT. :shifty:
Anyways...
This is what I got:
QuoteAccused by some of misinforming its core audience of young adults about international news, this series doesn't hide the fact that it's not a news program and only uses newsworthy stories as a jumping-off point to satire. In addition to celebrity and politician interviews, Stewart and his staff perform skits to get their points across.
I thought, "misinforming?" Really? :headscratch:
But I found this GIF and I think I'm gonna like him: :snicker:
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Frewire.news%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F10%2FJon-Stewart-FY.gif&hash=661def894e30d10217495a85ea4462b78a4baa65)
Quote from: Magdalena on July 16, 2016, 03:45:10 AM
Hey, Davin,
I don't know who, Jon Stewart is, so I googled The Daily Show With Jon Stewart. (I don't watch too much TV) Not even GOT. :shifty:
Anyways...
This is what I got:
QuoteAccused by some of misinforming its core audience of young adults about international news, this series doesn't hide the fact that it's not a news program and only uses newsworthy stories as a jumping-off point to satire. In addition to celebrity and politician interviews, Stewart and his staff perform skits to get their points across.
I thought, "misinforming?" Really? :headscratch:
But I found this GIF and I think I'm gonna like him: :snicker:
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Frewire.news%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F10%2FJon-Stewart-FY.gif&hash=661def894e30d10217495a85ea4462b78a4baa65)
I like Jon Stewart, but yeah, the Daily Show tended to stretch the truth a bit for a joke. I don't agree with "misinforming," because any reasons for stretching the truth were obviously for humor, which is far better than say why Fox News stretches the truth.
Sickening news today: Munich, shooters kill at least six at a shopping mall food court. Germany is on high alert. The whole city is shut down while the shooter or shooters, there may be as many as three, are sought. It is not certain that this is a terrorist act orchestrated by ISIS or just some incredibly disturbed independent lunatics.
Quote from: Icarus on July 23, 2016, 12:04:11 AM
Sickening news today: Munich, shooters kill at least six at a shopping mall food court. Germany is on high alert. The whole city is shut down while the shooter or shooters, there may be as many as three, are sought. It is not certain that this is a terrorist act orchestrated by ISIS or just some incredibly disturbed independent lunatics.
Later news seems to indicate he was a loner, and maybe a nutter.
Dual Iranian/German citizenship he was shouting about "bloody foreigners" or something to the police. Chances are he is shi'ite, if so far less chance of IS involvement.
Quote from: Gloucester on July 23, 2016, 08:38:47 AM
Quote from: Icarus on July 23, 2016, 12:04:11 AM
Sickening news today: Munich, shooters kill at least six at a shopping mall food court. Germany is on high alert. The whole city is shut down while the shooter or shooters, there may be as many as three, are sought. It is not certain that this is a terrorist act orchestrated by ISIS or just some incredibly disturbed independent lunatics.
Later news seems to indicate he was a loner, and maybe a nutter.
Dual Iranian/German citizenship he was shouting about "bloody foreigners" or something to the police. Chances are he is shi'ite, if so far less chance of IS involvement.
The shooter hacked a Facebook account of a girl, to lure many people in the McDonalds, where he started shooting. So,he can't be totally nuts. In any case, I'm happy that that piece of shit is dead.
Quote from: Tom62 on July 23, 2016, 04:39:24 PM
Quote from: Gloucester on July 23, 2016, 08:38:47 AM
Quote from: Icarus on July 23, 2016, 12:04:11 AM
Sickening news today: Munich, shooters kill at least six at a shopping mall food court. Germany is on high alert. The whole city is shut down while the shooter or shooters, there may be as many as three, are sought. It is not certain that this is a terrorist act orchestrated by ISIS or just some incredibly disturbed independent lunatics.
Later news seems to indicate he was a loner, and maybe a nutter.
Dual Iranian/German citizenship he was shouting about "bloody foreigners" or something to the police. Chances are he is shi'ite, if so far less chance of IS involvement.
The shooter hacked a Facebook account of a girl, to lure many people in the McDonalds, where he started shooting. So,he can't be totally nuts. In any case, I'm happy that that piece of shit is dead.
Certainly not the actions of a sane person!
"Nutter" is a broad spectrum from pathologically eccentric to total psychopath. Not sure that intelligence, or at least strategic ability (cunning), is automatically excluded.
I do not consider the "intellectually challenged" to be nutters. Violence on their part is mostly reactive and defensive in my limited experience.
Quote from: Icarus on July 23, 2016, 12:04:11 AM
Sickening news today: Munich, shooters
I thought it was ho hum, it'll just be another Muslim killing people because of virgins or whatever.
It was just another Muslim killing people because of virgins or whatever.
I wonder if one'll get a monster truck, but no they're high and you just have to avoid the wheels.
The high speed trains, they seem pretty obvious, they run to timetables, same way every time.
Ref "nutter" aspect:
Seems he had been having treatment for psychological problems - and was obsessed with stories of mass killings.
Still no link with radicalisation found.
QuoteEmail invoices for the purchase of cleaning products, Viagra, a knife and plastic handcuffs are among the evidence tendered to a New South Wales court against a man charged with the murder of high school teacher Stephanie Scott.
Is Viagra a thing that goes in the murderous rapists kit now?
Prostitutions is legal, I don't know how much it costs but it must be affordable.
She was going to be married, she had a life, probably light of her parents life.
Conception can be difficult for some.
Carrying to term isn't a thing I'd want to do
Birthing is a thing
The little noisy thing you care for.
Stories at bed time
A person you grow
Years, birthday parties, schooling
She blooms, succeeds, rejoice
cleaning products, Viagra,
a knife and plastic handcuffs"
Quote from: Gloucester on July 23, 2016, 05:34:39 PM
I do not consider the "intellectually challenged" to be nutters. Violence on their part is mostly reactive and defensive in my limited experience.
Never heard the expression "intellectually challenged". I assume you mean someone who is stupid, dumb, a fool or a nitwit?
Quote from: Tom62 on July 23, 2016, 08:15:24 PM
Quote from: Gloucester on July 23, 2016, 05:34:39 PM
I do not consider the "intellectually challenged" to be nutters. Violence on their part is mostly reactive and defensive in my limited experience.
Never heard the expression "intellectually challenged". I assume you mean someone who is stupid, dumb, a fool or a nitwit?
Actually none of those terms accurately apply to people who may suffer from genetic or physically traumatic problems, who do not have a fully functioning brain. Common, casual, usage does not make them so.
All of those terns can apply to otherwise "normal" people. I have certaimly been stupid, foolish or a nitwit when, say, I have been distracted, emotional or otherwise intellectually disengaged. But for me (or so I would claim) those are transitory states - not pernanent conditions! :D
Later: actually one term missing from above is "thick". When helping an "intellectually challenged" chap learn how to use a digital camera I, jokingly, said sonething disparaging. His reply was, "Look, I'm thick, not stupid." This was an accurate description, he had trouble learning but functioned well in most other areas.