I'm sure most folks have heard by now of the tragedy that struck here in western Michigan in the city of Kalamazoo on June 7th, when five bicyclists were killed, and four severely injured by a hit and run driver while out riding.
5 bicyclists killed, 4 injured when truck crashes into group near Kalamazoo
(http://www.wzzm13.com/news/local/kalamazoo/police-at-least-8-victims-multiple-dead-after-car-hits-bicyclists/235907309)
I lived in Kalamazoo for about a year and a half when I was younger, and my daughter attended school for four years at Kalamazoo College.
It's a beautiful area, and lovely city with a vibrant cycling community. Several years ago I participated in a ride there with some friends, and everyone here in the state who rides has been reeling in shock from this.
Here is an excellent and moving article by Jason Gray reflecting on this tragedy.
Five Bicycles in Kalamazoo
(http://www.wsj.com/articles/five-bicycles-in-kalamazoo-1465945453)
QuoteKalamazoo, Mich.
The road looks like it could be almost anywhere in America.
Two lanes, ruler straight, it can be taken in and out of town. Where the horror happened, up on North Westnedge Avenue, there's a small hill, nothing major, just a gentle roller, past a string of greenhouses and a county park.
When I visit, there's still debris scattered at the scene. The shattered pieces of a bicycle's tail light. A set of tire levers, used to change a flat. A broken-off piece of sunglasses. A fragment of a carbon fiber frame—which, upon closer inspection, turns out to be part of a "dropout" that holds a bike's rear wheel.
It is both heartbreaking and difficult to comprehend.
Lance Armstrong also visited the city shortly after the tragedy to meet with the survivors of the crash and family members of those killed as well as to participate in an event with other riders to finish the ride those 9 cyclists started that day, and shares his story of these events and his thoughts on the matter here.
Lance Armstrong: Why I Went to Kalamazoo to Finish the Ride
(http://www.mensjournal.com/adventure/articles/lance-armstrong-why-i-went-to-kalamazoo-to-finish-the-ride-w210178)
QuoteAfter a day in Kalamazoo spent with the survivors of the horrific crash that left five cyclists dead, Lance Armstrong details how he learned of the tragedy, his participation in an event to finish the ride that those cyclists started, and his emotions of seeing five ghost bikes for the first time: "The whole thing was just completely shocking."
Tomorrow morning a group of us are joining some other local bike clubs to go on a silent ride to honor those killed and injured, nothing fancy, just a silent ride in memory and solidarity.
The name of that town sounds like what you get when Calamity and Kazoo have sex.
Nah, I shall not mock, but I must admit to being desensitised to the plight of the cyclists on a car road. It must be said, however, that depends on the speed limit on the road in question and individually, on whether or not a given cyclist follows the traffic laws, especially those nice yield right of way signs.
The run part of the hit and run I DO disapprove of, by the way, just in case any one wonders.
Back in 2009 I saw Magda Szubanski, an obese female comedian doing her thing about cyclists, their Lycra outfits and declaring them verminous. That's impolite isn't it, me referring to her weight? Spewing hate that gets cyclists killed and crippled is fine though. Racist and homophobe rants are censured, fair enough, it gets people killed but for some reason it's open season on cyclists. She's gay, I've heard her being interviewed, playing the fashionable caring lefty. People love her, the sound of her voice makes me cringe.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/entertainment/tv--radio/magdas-anticyclist-rant/2009/10/01/1253989983683.html
QuoteIn a segment on the Channel Ten show where guests can rant about what irritates them, Szubanski expressed her frustration towards lycra-clad cyclists on Melbourne's Beach Road, prompting an inundation of angry comments on blogs and websites.
The TV host and comedian started by saying she was fed up with cyclists riding for exercise — "a four-lane highway is not your gym".
However, Szubanski and fellow comedian Julia Morris angered cyclists, after suggesting motorists should "just drive and take them out", "open the [car] door!"
http://theconversation.com/why-do-we-still-hear-people-joke-about-hitting-cyclists-31214
Quote
Of course, satire, self-deprecation, taking the piss and not taking ourselves too seriously are hallmarks of Australian culture. Should cyclists lighten up and take it with good humour? It's all a bit of fun, right?
Yet this isn't harmless fun. The importance and impact of language in public discourse was highlighted in the recent move to replace the macho term "king hit" with the disempowered "coward punch". Similarly, the words used in media rants that encourage violence against cyclists have immediate repercussions.
Participants in a cycling safety study in the Australian Capital Territory reported increased harassment in the days immediately after the rants by Szubanski, Morris and Warne. Many of these regular commuting cyclists experienced a significant increase in physical intimidation from drivers, vehicles overtaking too closely, verbal abuse from drivers and passengers, and use of car horns.
Public incitement to violence against cyclists validates the view of a minority of drivers who already hold anti-cyclist views. At worst, it can encourage aggression and normalise the concept that real-life violence against cyclists is acceptable. This endorsement is potentially more influential, and therefore more dangerous, when made by a celebrity or public figure.
Having survived an aggressive car/bike hit and run (I got a ruptured spleen out of the deal, so I was lucky) I agree that there's nothing acceptable about it, let alone being a source of humor. I also had a friend who was killed by a bus when riding his bicycle on the streets. :-\
Quote from: Recusant on June 19, 2016, 03:22:51 PM
Having survived an aggressive car/bike hit and run (I got a ruptured spleen out of the deal, so I was lucky) I agree that there's nothing acceptable about it, let alone being a source of humor. I also had a friend who was killed by a bus when riding his bicycle on the streets. :-\
Unfortunately, these can be the results of playing in the same sandbox as things that are several orders of magnitude bigger than yourself in nearly every respect that matters. Yes, some motor vehicle operators are assholes, but on an 80kmph speed limit road, if you and your bike buddies ride three-four abreast, then so are you.
The difference is that the asshole in the semi is far more likely to outlive the asshole in a car who, in turn, is likely to survive the condom-clad cyclist who owns the road and has no mirrors.
My point is; don't be an ass whatever the fuck you drive, then maybe we all will live and not wish each other dead.
Sometimes I encounter herds of cyclists, who think that they participate in the Tour de France and that they own the road. I'm not fond of cycling as a sport (there are only few sports that I find more more boring than cycling) and whenever I see some of these cyclist behaving like aggressive clowns, I have to suppress the urge to run them off the road.
Quote from: Tom62 on June 19, 2016, 06:02:27 PM
Sometimes I encounter herds of cyclists, who think that they participate in the Tour de France and that they own the road. I'm not fond of cycling as a sport (there are only few sports that I find more more boring than cycling) and whenever I see some of these cyclist behaving like aggressive clowns, I have to suppress the urge to run them off the road.
Yes. I think some cyclists actually do believe that the same rules as apply to me in a car do not apply to them. So it takes you more effort to get up to speed again after slowing/stopping than it does me? Well...
For those of you who, like me, are not fond of excessive use of images, here is a text version:
If you keep to one side, respect the road signs and traffic lights, indicate your intentions and wear a helmet with a mirror, so that you know I'm coming, then I will happily overtake you the way I would overtake another car, yield right of way to you from the right or where appropriate signs so dictate, and even avoid bodies of water where there is risk of you getting drenched in my spray. Push your agenda before mine where you are not entitled to do so, however, and we will have a disagreement which I will win.
...And for the rest, a show'n'tell:
Spoiler
A light of this colour on a traffic light means "Fuck you. Stop."
This sign:
(https://classconnection.s3.amazonaws.com/862/flashcards/1584862/jpg/yield_right-of-way-142EA391B021277989B.jpg)
means "Fuck you. Yield."
This sign:
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.td.gov.hk%2Fmini_site%2Fcic%2Fimages%2Fcontent_img%2Froad_signs%2F136.gif&hash=fef3a3b92c79abbcec9fdb45d02de1b9001b9e75)
...means it's MY motorway. Fuck off.
This thing:
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffl22.shopmania.org%2Ffiles%2Fp%2Fus%2Ft%2F413%2F175199413.jpg&hash=3e916adc4532b898c0d70e4356a1a8f2e2328915)
is called a rear view mirror. It goes on this thing:
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fc.shld.net%2Frpx%2Fi%2Fs%2Fi%2Fspin%2Fimage%2Fspin_prod_808917612%3Fhei%3D185%26amp%3Bwid%3D185%26amp%3Bop_sharpen%3D1%26amp%3Bqlt%3D85&hash=97807acd7df6717beaf85468706eb4dcb1c528b9)
both of which might just prevent me from killing you.
Oh, and cyclists? These are your brake lights and indicators:
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww1.toronto.ca%2Fcity_of_toronto%2Ftransportation_services%2Fcycling%2Ffiles%2Fimages%2Fcycling_hand_signals_420x187.jpg&hash=212e7657c07d9d79b89bc6739e855825d4c44326)
Use them. I know we motorists suck at doing so ourselves, but me in one of these:
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages1.americanlisted.com%2Fnlarge%2F2008-volkswagen-passat-4-door-wagon-americanlisted_44134727.jpg&hash=2e97e3dcb79eb2b0c6a7bc60d1c3be372831d450)
vs. you on one of these:
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Froadbikecity.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F12%2FState_Bicycle_Cyclocross_SSCX_Thunderbird2_large1.jpg&hash=595db1ec3d3caa8bc062e00d39fe572cb1acb162)
is less likely to end quite as tragically for me as it is for you.
...Oh! and when I use a zebra crossing to get out of a parking garage on foot, you still have to yield, damn you! >:(
Now just to balance things out a little, would a cyclist post his own show and tell for asshole motorists?
Quote from: Tom62 on June 19, 2016, 06:02:27 PM
Sometimes I encounter herds of cyclists, who think that they participate in the Tour de France and that they own the road. I'm not fond of cycling as a sport (there are only few sports that I find more more boring than cycling) and whenever I see some of these cyclist behaving like aggressive clowns, I have to suppress the urge to run them off the road.
Like this?
This happened not far from where I live. Southern Brazilian drivers are notoriously bad but this is a but much, I think.
I don't think it's funny or appropriate to joke about hurting cyclists (or anyone really) I do confess that I get a little impatient being stuck behind cyclists on streets where they can't go the speed of traffic. I wish more major streets had bike lanes for the cyclists' safety and my sanity.
Quote from: Ali on June 19, 2016, 11:27:43 PM
I wish more major streets had bike lanes for the cyclists' safety and my sanity.
These help too sometimes:
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F__nNj9PX-FaQ%2FS4xIV1pakMI%2FAAAAAAAAAH0%2F1Gg4XXJAZdo%2Fs320%2Fno_cycling.gif&hash=aaf9feb6778fed4a29ebcda888dd02609a802fcb)
Whenever I see a cyclist, I move over as far as I can to ensure there is as much room as possible between us. And yes, while there are shitbags who ride their bicycles with zero concern for others, and disobey the rules of the road, they are the minority. Now I may think that the way these Einsteins ride will eventually get them hit, I do not wish it upon them.
All the signs and safety precautions in the world are not going to save you from a drunken douche, or even worse someone suffering a seizure and losing control of their vehicle. I realize this hasn't been said by anyone, but incompetence abounds in our species.
As a UK cyclist who sometimes rides in large groups and sometimes solo I experience much unprovoked aggression from drivers. It would be an unusual ride indeed not to be sworn or beeped at at least once. The issue is more of impatience than a reaction to any particular lack of consideration on our part. Of course, I've seen many a dick on a bike - experienced club riders too - but (trying my best not to be biassed) I see far more unprovoked aggression from drivers than inconsiderate cyclists.
It's amazing cycling in France (and I'd guess most other European countries) - I feel like a special citizen on a bike - always given a wide clearance, often given priority with a smile and sometimes given a wave and a cheer. During the cycling events on the continent, extra trains are laid on with extra bike carriages for people to get around. In the UK on event days (like the London-Brighton) cycles are banned from the trains for the day. I wonder what the general welcome is like in the US for cyclists?
The US seems pretty cyclist friendly, from what I can tell.
Quote from: Asmodean on June 20, 2016, 12:11:25 AM
Quote from: Ali on June 19, 2016, 11:27:43 PM
I wish more major streets had bike lanes for the cyclists' safety and my sanity.
These help too sometimes:
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F__nNj9PX-FaQ%2FS4xIV1pakMI%2FAAAAAAAAAH0%2F1Gg4XXJAZdo%2Fs320%2Fno_cycling.gif&hash=aaf9feb6778fed4a29ebcda888dd02609a802fcb)
^
The mark of Satan Himself.
Quote from: Siz on June 20, 2016, 01:48:02 AM
Quote from: Asmodean on June 20, 2016, 12:11:25 AM
Quote from: Ali on June 19, 2016, 11:27:43 PM
I wish more major streets had bike lanes for the cyclists' safety and my sanity.
These help too sometimes:
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F__nNj9PX-FaQ%2FS4xIV1pakMI%2FAAAAAAAAAH0%2F1Gg4XXJAZdo%2Fs320%2Fno_cycling.gif&hash=aaf9feb6778fed4a29ebcda888dd02609a802fcb)
^
The mark of Satan Himself.
:snicker:
Quote from: Siz on June 20, 2016, 01:48:02 AM
Quote from: Asmodean on June 20, 2016, 12:11:25 AM
Quote from: Ali on June 19, 2016, 11:27:43 PM
I wish more major streets had bike lanes for the cyclists' safety and my sanity.
These help too sometimes:
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F__nNj9PX-FaQ%2FS4xIV1pakMI%2FAAAAAAAAAH0%2F1Gg4XXJAZdo%2Fs320%2Fno_cycling.gif&hash=aaf9feb6778fed4a29ebcda888dd02609a802fcb)
^
The mark of Satan Himself.
Worse; The Holy-Divine Mark of His Grumpiness' Own Personal Motorway. >:(
I find "cyclists" infuriating most of the time, for reasons well laid out by Asmo above; failing to stop at stop signs and redlights, failing to signal - especially when turning left off the road as there's no way to know that the person you're about to pass is going to veer right in front of you, failure to yield the right of way. Sure, there are cyclists who follow the rules of the road. Then... there are the ones who stop traffic to let thirty or more cyclists onto a road (this is often done by someone who is not in any way affiliated with the police) and then bunch up making it impossible to get around. They ride three, sometimes four, wide keeping up a running conversation with each other and are left completely oblivious to what's going on around them. When they stop in town they lean their bicycles against parked cars to go into stores. Sadly, this sort of cyclist seems to be the norm in my area.
Then you have the people who ride a bike but are not what I would consider a cyclist. I have noticed that those who depend on their bike to get back and forth to work etc. tend to be more observant of traffic laws than people driving cars. It could be due to them spending a lot more time riding their bike than the average cyclist, and perhaps being more aware of just how dangerous a position they could find themselves in should they not be careful.
I came scarily close to hitting a cyclist just a few weeks ago. He ran a stop sign cutting across traffic into a busy road. He never looked or slowed down. He could have easily been killed and I know cyclists who think that riding that way is perfectly acceptable. That drivers are ultimagely responsible for anything that might happen to them and they do not have to obey traffic laws. It's almost unimaginably stupid of them, but that's the way they feel and if I did hit someone causing serious injury or death, regardless of whether they were at fault or not, I'm not sure how well I would sleep at night. That's what really makes me angry.
Over the last 9 months I have been driving between Leeds and Bradford. They are building 'Cycle super highways'. So there are these lovely cycleways on each side of the road. They have narrowed the roadway. There are some brain dead moron cyclists that still ride on the road, not on the cycleway!!! WTF!!!
Quote from: Tank on June 20, 2016, 06:53:03 AM
Over the last 9 months I have been driving between Leeds and Bradford. They are building 'Cycle super highways'. So there are these lovely cycleways on each side of the road. They have narrowed the roadway. There are some brain dead moron cyclists that still ride on the road, not on the cycleway!!! WTF!!!
There is a good reason for that. Often when roadways are swept (or by the natural movement of small debris) all the glass and other punctureous detritus end up on the cycle path. To maintain a safe, cycle-friendly route the councils should make provision to actively maintain (i.e sweep) the cycle paths. This, apparently, is not in the budget and the roadway, often having been made narrower, becomes a lesser evil for the cyclist. The fact the cyclist does choose to use the road instead should tell you something about the quality of the provision of the cycleway.
Quote from: Siz on June 20, 2016, 08:34:28 AM
Quote from: Tank on June 20, 2016, 06:53:03 AM
Over the last 9 months I have been driving between Leeds and Bradford. They are building 'Cycle super highways'. So there are these lovely cycleways on each side of the road. They have narrowed the roadway. There are some brain dead moron cyclists that still ride on the road, not on the cycleway!!! WTF!!!
There is a good reason for that. Often when roadways are swept (or by the natural movement of small debris) all the glass and other punctureous detritus end up on the cycle path. To maintain a safe, cycle-friendly route the councils should make provision to actively maintain (i.e sweep) the cycle paths. This, apparently, is not in the budget and the roadway, often having been made narrower, becomes a lesser evil for the cyclist. The fact the cyclist does choose to use the road instead should tell you something about the quality of the provision of the cycleway.
Absolutely Siz!
That thing (I won't even call it a cycle lane) in Leeds is a death trap for cyclists. It was so ill-thought out in the design process and the biggest waste of money, the real 'brain dead morons' are those who have been championing it. A friend of mine is chair of the cycling campaign group in Leeds and they were consulted when the money was announced for it but the planners ignored all their suggestions, mainly due to political pressure from Leeds council. It is built in the wrong place for a start, there is already a much safer route for cyclists from Leeds-Bradford along the canal, well away from cars that could have been improved for a fraction of the price and would actually have encouraged more people to cycle. But after the Tour de France publicity the council wanted to be seen to be doing something in a more public area so went even more steam ahead for the highway mess.
en
The junctions on the death trap in particular are a real mess. It is now even more dangerous than ever for cyclists and you find them leaving the highway to go on the road for a safer route around the junctions. Then there's the fact it is level with the road and parking isn't' enforced so it has ended up in places as a glorified car park.
There's a guy who has a much more informed blog, complete with photos and diagrams https://departmentfortransport.wordpress.com/2014/07/18/leeds-and-bradford-cycle-superhighway-confused-you-will-be/
To encourage more people on to cycles, you really have to work on the fear factor and make it genuinely safer for cyclists. Cities across Europe do get it right but it needs a complete change in culture. There should be no need in the UK on our densely packed island for people to have to rely on cars every day. Personally I'd love to see the day where most households don't even own a car but maybe just rent one for the occasional use. Leeds actually gets a lot of this right in terms of public transport and there is actually a fantastic bus service between Leeds and Bradford so people shouldn't need to drive every day along that route. The problem is there's little joined up thinking on how to best get people to the bus interchanges from the outskirts of the city and stupidly they don't allow (or make space for) people to cycle to the bus and split the journey up that way.
I recently visited Oxford for work and they are further on track for getting it right. The number of cycles is amazing and there are bikes parked everywhere, there is a real cycling culture and the more people who do take to bikes the more pressure there is on the law makers to make it safer.
ETA: photo from a friend's twitter of the 'cycle superhighway':
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CixEPjyWEAA80YO.jpg:large)
see....the lovely line of cars? Yep, that's the superhighway!
I'm not writing this feeling particularly ranty and pious, maybe I should use a pleasant blue font?
I think the psychology of this is quite interesting.
I've heard anticyclists venting their bile so often and their arguments are almost all demonstrably rubbish.
So what is going on with them?
http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2015/jul/01/sabotage-and-hatred-what-have-people-got-against-cyclists
Quote"What you see in discourses about cycling is the absolute classic 1960s and 1970s social psychology of prejudice," he explains. "It's exactly those things that used to be done about minority ethnic groups and so on – the overgeneralisation of negative traits, under-representation of negative behaviours by one's own group, that kind of thing. It's just textbook prejudiced behaviour."
If you do feel the hate and you value rational consistency, I humbly suggest you examine your motives.
Not Asmo of course, his philosophy isn't pretty but it is at least more or less consistent.
Quote from: Tank on June 20, 2016, 06:53:03 AMbrain dead moron cyclists that still ride on the road, not on the cycleway!!! WTF!!!
Quote from: Tom62 on June 19, 2016, 06:02:27 PM
Sometimes I encounter herds of cyclists,
Would those be a cases of dehumanizing by any chance?
Quote from: jumbojak on June 20, 2016, 03:20:54 AMif I did hit someone causing serious injury or death, regardless of whether they were at fault or not, I'm not sure how well I would sleep at night. That's what really makes me angry.
I think the complaints about delay are petty. That above sounds defensible, even if it's a financial/legal fear.
While playing the amateur psychologist I'll toss that rationalisation word in, it was always one of my favourites.
I saw a Goofy cartoon when I was very young, amiable Goofey gets into his car and experiences a Mr Hyde like transformation. I think this happens to many people to some degree, I'm not sure how this ties in but it's not conducive to caring and sharing.
Quote from: Bad Penny II on June 20, 2016, 11:18:44 AMQuote from: jumbojak on June 20, 2016, 03:20:54 AMif I did hit someone causing serious injury or death, regardless of whether they were at fault or not, I'm not sure how well I would sleep at night. That's what really makes me angry.
I think the complaints about delay are petty. That above sounds defensible, even if it's a financial/legal fear.
That above is not the least bit financial or legal. It's referring to how I would deal with having been driving the vehicle that killed someone. Also, the issue of delay is hardly petty. If I or someone else has there job put at risk so a group of cyclists can enjoy their day off and block the roads while doing so it is a very real concern. How would you react to an employee who was late because they had to spend twenty minutes (or more) getting around a mob of cyclists?
Quote from: Bad Penny II on June 20, 2016, 11:18:44 AM
Not Asmo of course, his philosophy isn't pretty but it is at least more or less consistent.
Well, yes, He's perfect in His live-and-let-die world view. Finally some recognition of the fact!
Thing is, I'm not anti-cyclist or, for that matter, pro-might-makes-right. Alhough, even if it doesn't necesserilly "make right", might, when barreling towards you in the form of an overloaded big rig, can make you dead. And being a small and squishy thing, you have some responsibilities in regard to your own survival. Why else would young children be taught to look both ways before crossing a road, even on a zebra crossing? (A thing they seem to forget, by the way, the instant they turn into teenagers and evolve smart phones and massive sound banks around their ears)
Well, my irritation about someone going below the speed of traffic in front of me may be petty, but it's not coming from a place that is particularly anticyclist. I feel the same or more irritation when someone in a car is driving very slowly in front of me as well. Actually that's probably worse; at least with the cyclist I understand that humans typically can't ride as fast as cars can drive. So I may well be Mr Hyde behind the wheel, but I'm an equal opportunity Mr Hyde. If everyone could just GTF out of my way all the time, that would be super. ;)
Quote from: jumbojak on June 20, 2016, 03:08:17 PM
Quote from: Bad Penny II on June 20, 2016, 11:18:44 AMQuote from: jumbojak on June 20, 2016, 03:20:54 AMif I did hit someone causing serious injury or death, regardless of whether they were at fault or not, I'm not sure how well I would sleep at night. That's what really makes me angry.
I think the complaints about delay are petty. That above sounds defensible, even if it's a financial/legal fear.
That above is not the least bit financial or legal. It's referring to how I would deal with having been driving the vehicle that killed someone. Also, the issue of delay is hardly petty. If I or someone else has there job put at risk so a group of cyclists can enjoy their day off and block the roads while doing so it is a very real concern. How would you react to an employee who was late because they had to spend twenty minutes (or more) getting around a mob of cyclists?
I didn't think you were motivated by financial or legal fear, just that some people might be.
I have never been delayed for twenty minutes by bikes, roads are closed sometimes for iron man events though. I've been delayed by traffic and road works though, if punctuality is vital allowance should be made for delay. Bikes take cars off the road so they'd have both a positive and negative effect on travel time. A delay of twenty minutes, an extreme of bike caused inconvenience and a ruptured spleen, it does seem petty in comparison to me.