Well, decision time for me. The Massachusetts primary is on Tuesday, and so far I'm still planning to vote for Bernie, but part of me is scared to do it. I declared early on that I would, but truth-be-told I assumed it would be more of a statement vote. But Bernie's close and still has a shot.
Glenn Greenwald tried to make the case that Bernie matches up better than Hillary against Trump (seriously, Trump???), but the GOP has ignored Bernie so far. At least with Hillary she's polling well despite decades of abuse from them. Bernie, they haven't yet brought up the socialist label, his support of the Sardinistas back in the day, and other useless rhetoric that could easily turn people off, whether we like to admit it or not.
So, vote with the heart or head?
That is also my dilemma Firebird. I think that Hillary is more electable despite here dirty laundry. So do I vote my heart or my mind? I have not the slightest problem with having a female POTUS. I have some misgivings about the front runner however. Would the majority of the Senate and the House treat her as they have treated Obama? Obama is the worst prez in the history of the US according to his congressional detractors? In a pigs ass he is.
In case any one is wondering, No, I will not vote for any of the several lunatic GOP hopefuls. The only one with a vestige of common sense is Kasich and I am not too sure about him. Cruz?? I an not inclined to pray but I will make an exception if the good lord will cause Ted to lose the nomination and send him back to Canada. Sorry if any Canadians are reading this. I mean you no harm.. Rubio I could live with but not happily. Marco is handsome and articulate but has shown little to indicate that he is profoundly presidential.
I am puzzled, sadly puzzled, at the apparent favor for Trump. WTF causes otherwise intelligent people to embrace such an egotistical purveyor of unadulterated bullshit???????? A brash clown like this with his fingers on the red telephone? Sheeesh! We desperately need the intervention of FSM.
In the end it does not make a rats ass about what we superior intellects think or believe about the candidates. Who ever beguiles the most voters will be the winner...........or loser.......... as the case may be.
I'll vote for Bernie, because I just can't get over the feeling that Clinton isn't psychologically suited to be President -- not that she doesn't know her stuff, or isn't an experienced politician, but I just don't think she's suited to use them in that job. It's not like we haven't had accomplished politicians who made unsuitable Presidents before (Nixon, anyone?) I'd just rather not repeat it more than necessary.
But if Bernie gets the nod, and not the job, I am going to be one unhappy camper. I comfort myself with the thought that no one gets done in the White House what they thought they could get done. Esp if there's a Democratic majority in the Senate after this election.
I don't really have a horse in this race as I'm not registered to a party. I'd prefer Bernie but I'll take either over any of the GOP nominees.
I feel like Bern may stand a better chance than Hilary. A lot of people hate Trump. But a lot of people really hate Hilary too. It'll fall back to very party vs party if she gets the nomination.
I wouldn't vote for Hillary even if I thought she could win. Even if I thought that she could succede where Bernie couldn't. And I'm not so scared of the Republicans as to make choices in that way. In certain ways, though certainly not all, Bernie shares my values. That's enough for me. In a world of bad choices his politics are somewhat palatable so I won't leave a bad taste in my mouth by punching his name.
I've voted absentee for Bernie Sanders. My mom for a guy who dropped out (O'Malley).
-Nam
Quote from: Icarus on February 27, 2016, 12:28:24 AM
In case any one is wondering, No, I will not vote for any of the several lunatic GOP hopefuls. The only one with a vestige of common sense is Kasich and I am not too sure about him. Cruz?? I an not inclined to pray but I will make an exception if the good lord will cause Ted to lose the nomination and send him back to Canada. Sorry if any Canadians are reading this. I mean you no harm.. Rubio I could live with but not happily. Marco is handsome and articulate but has shown little to indicate that he is profoundly presidential.
Kasich and the others are no different than Trump except Trump says everything out loud. Cruz, actually, may be worse than Trump.
QuoteI am puzzled, sadly puzzled, at the apparent favor for Trump. WTF causes otherwise intelligent people to embrace such an egotistical purveyor of unadulterated bullshit???????? A brash clown like this with his fingers on the red telephone? Sheeesh! We desperately need the intervention of FSM.
From my understanding, it's not so much that they agree with him or like him (the intelligent ones) it's that they're sick and tired of politicians, and he clearly isn't one.
-Nam
As an outsider who has no say at all, I would vote for Bernie over Hillary. Hillary is a typical politician who will say anything to get the vote, you only have to look at how she's jumped on the money for lobbying bandwagon as she saw Bernie was popular with it. Bernie may not be perfect but he seems to have a genuine consistent message that he's been saying for years, not just to win an election.
I think you have an opportunity to vote for change (which seems clichéd but perhaps is true this time) with either Trump or Bernie. Trump is clearly an egomaniac lunatic but he appeals to people who don't want another typical politician. Bernie should appeal in the same way but has the added benefit of he has some excellent policies! My fear is the Clinton team are winning this battle because of the fears that Firebird highlighted in his first post, they are telling people that if you vote for Bernie you're letting the Republicans win. I simply don't think that's true and is just a clever tactic by them.
If everyone voted for who they want instead of tactical then you might get a half decent president!
Quote from: Claireliontamerthey are telling people that if you vote for Bernie you're letting the Republicans win.
Actually, there may be some truth to this based on the fact that Democrats aren't coming out to vote in the primaries as high as in the past. Republicans, especially those in the Southern US, are coming out pretty high (which is not averaged normalcy). Now, it may be different in November but if history of the Democrat Party is telling (and it is), it'll have a lower turnout than in 2008 or 2012.
The thing is, statistically speaking: Democrats outnumber Republicans in most states (even some Southern ones) and while one could make the argument that in Republican held states that they make it difficult for certain people to vote (which is true) the rest have no excuse.
Democrats are typically like Catholics: they feel a need to punish themselves. It's sad, really. Especially since they're to blame in those states that typically are Democratic states yet led by Republicans.
The Republican Party is now controlled by the far-right Conservatives. Used to be the moderates (and/or Establishment), and either everyone else has to fall in line, or get the hell out. It's the white Christian party now; anyone of another stripe will just be used to further their goals.
White supremacy groups are coming out of the shadows and openly endorsing Donald Trump, and Trump isn't turning them away, and neither is too many others on the Republican side. Those not saying anything that are Republican (there are some who are) are just looking the other way. Why? Because anyone who says anything is considered a RINO or a traitor. Traitor? Yes, it's a Southern thing. Think about it.
-Nam
It's the same over here and probably a worldwide trend (but that's a guess, not based on evidence). The demographics of people who are most likely to actually turn out and vote on the day are older and white. Statistically speaking they are more likely to be conservative voters (Conservative party here, Republican party over there). What Bernie appears to be doing and to a certain extent Jeremy Corbyn over here is activating the younger voters. If they can turn out and actually vote then you may get change, again from what I've read on this side of the pond, and conversations with jumbojak, Bernie will do this more that Hillary. So he would have a better chance against whichever Republican it is.
In the world of Texas politics, I vote in the Republican primary because that's where all the local offices are decided (judges, local officials, etc.). Nobody serious runs in the Democratic primary because Democrats never win around here. So I had to decide who to vote for in the GOP Presidential primary. Cruz is ahead in Texas, but I can't stand him even more than I can't stand Trump. I want Trump to win the GOP nomination so he can face Hillary in the general and lose. So I voted for Trump. When the general election comes in November, I'll vote for the Democratic nominee, whom I expect to be Hillary. I'm not wild about her, but she's better than Trump or Cruz. Isn't US politics strange?
The US could do with a non-Christian president that has a strong political career who represents the party through and through and isn't running for vapid reasons. Bernie could be exactly what the US needs. Hillary is a vile victim blaming candidate who has been chasing the populist vote her entire career that represents the inadequacy of the establishment.
Quote from: Icarus on February 27, 2016, 12:28:24 AM
I am puzzled, sadly puzzled, at the apparent favor for Trump. WTF causes otherwise intelligent people to embrace such an egotistical purveyor of unadulterated bullshit????????
Saw an interesting article (http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/01/donald-trump-2016-authoritarian-213533) that says the one common characteristic among Trump supporters is a proclivity for authoritarianism. It would certainly explain a lot.
Quote from: jumbojak on February 27, 2016, 02:44:23 AM
I wouldn't vote for Hillary even if I thought she could win.
Would you still vote for her if she ends up the nominee?
Quote from: Nam on February 27, 2016, 08:43:45 AM
Those not saying anything that are Republican (there are some who are) are just looking the other way. Why? Because anyone who says anything is considered a RINO or a traitor. Traitor? Yes, it's a Southern thing. Think about it.
-Nam
LOL! So true though. The Confederacy were a bunch of traitors, and yet they still glorify them. Hypocrites.
Quote from: Claireliontamer on February 27, 2016, 09:47:12 AM
What Bernie appears to be doing and to a certain extent Jeremy Corbyn over here is activating the younger voters. If they can turn out and actually vote then you may get change, again from what I've read on this side of the pond, and conversations with jumbojak, Bernie will do this more that Hillary. So he would have a better chance against whichever Republican it is.
That's the big unknown, whether it would be enough. Young voters have been fickle up until now, and as mentioned earlier, older white people are more reliable about coming out to vote.
Quote from: Claireliontamer on February 27, 2016, 09:47:12 AM
It's the same over here and probably a worldwide trend (but that's a guess, not based on evidence). The demographics of people who are most likely to actually turn out and vote on the day are older and white. Statistically speaking they are more likely to be conservative voters (Conservative party here, Republican party over there). What Bernie appears to be doing and to a certain extent Jeremy Corbyn over here is activating the younger voters. If they can turn out and actually vote then you may get change, again from what I've read on this side of the pond, and conversations with jumbojak, Bernie will do this more that Hillary. So he would have a better chance against whichever Republican it is.
Yeàh, some Republicans here don't understand that the Conservatism here in the states isn't the same as Conservatism outside of the states. They're like ISIS here except for the murder and mayhem, though if they could do it and get away with it, I believe they would. Look at their stance at anyone who opposes them here? Some Christians on the Right believe that homosexuals should be in prison (and that was a crime here in some parts of the US not too long ago), one far right Christian who backs Cruz says they should all be rounded up by the government and executed. These people are the future of the Republican party.
No Democrat will do more as long as Republicans have control of the House and Senate.
-Nam
I'm in the same situation. I like Bernie a lot, enough that I'm currently supporting him on not only on social media, but also with a bumper sticker on my car, but I do have some concerns if he were to be the Democratic nominee for President.
My biggest concern is keeping the Republicans out of the white house, as I despise Cruz and loathe Trump, and simply cannot imagine either of them as our President. (I have some faith, after all the GOP couldn't keep Barack Hussein Obama from being elected twice)
My feeling is that Hilary can withstand the attack of the GOP Presidential election better than Bernie can, she's extremely tough, and along with that she's got the experience. Not sure how Bernie could stand up in a fight against Trump, especially when they start throwing the word socialist(-ism) around. Many Americans view that word the same way they do the word atheist (-ism).
They don't completely understand it, and they feel both represent the exact opposite of traditional America values.
Quote from: Nam on February 27, 2016, 04:03:48 AM
From my understanding, it's not so much that they agree with him or like him (the intelligent ones) it's that they're sick and tired of politicians, and he clearly isn't one.
-Nam
I think that you (and Claire) are absolutely right. Republicans are also in favour of a "strong" president, someone who is able to "rule" the free world and who doesn't tolerate BS. Basically, they will go for the top alpha male. Donald Trump fits their bill perfectly. Soft spoken, sympathetic, intelligent and thoughtful people, like Bernie or Obama don't stand a chance in their eyes.
Quote from: Firebird on February 27, 2016, 05:38:02 PMWould you still vote for her if she ends up the nominee?
Probably not. I'm not a democrat so I don't have the party loyalty to drag me along and I'm not so scared of the Republicans that I would be likely to vote for the lesser of two weasels just to keep them out. Not yet anyway...
Quote from: Tom62 on February 27, 2016, 08:06:16 PM
Quote from: Nam on February 27, 2016, 04:03:48 AM
From my understanding, it's not so much that they agree with him or like him (the intelligent ones) it's that they're sick and tired of politicians, and he clearly isn't one.
-Nam
I think that you (and Claire) are absolutely right. Republicans are also in favour of a "strong" president, someone who is able to "rule" the free world and who doesn't tolerate BS. Basically, they will go for the top alpha male. Donald Trump fits their bill perfectly. Soft spoken, sympathetic, intelligent and thoughtful people, like Bernie or Obama don't stand a chance in their eyes.
Trump isn't so intelligent if he alienates the people he does business with.
-Nam
Quote from: jumbojak on February 27, 2016, 08:58:05 PM
Quote from: Firebird on February 27, 2016, 05:38:02 PMWould you still vote for her if she ends up the nominee?
Probably not. I'm not a democrat so I don't have the party loyalty to drag me along and I'm not so scared of the Republicans that I would be likely to vote for the lesser of two weasels just to keep them out. Not yet anyway...
Democrats aren't loyal, if they were they wouldn't vote in Republicans in states they mainly control. Democrats haven't been loyal since the change (Southern Democrats becoming Republicans).
-Nam
Our president has two jobs. One of them is scary. He/she is the president and also the Commander in Chief. The CIC is the scary part if we elect a less than certifiably rational individual with diplomacy bona fides.
My fear is less of Trump as an individual - I think if elected, he'll blunder around a lot, make a lot noise, push some self-serving BS that has nothing to do with any of his promises, and generally be blocked by more rational people at most turns.
I'm more afraid of the vindication it will give his supporters, who are some seriously twisted individuals.
Quote from: Pasta Chick on February 28, 2016, 01:57:20 AM
My fear is less of Trump as an individual - I think if elected, he'll blunder around a lot, make a lot noise, push some self-serving BS that has nothing to do with any of his promises, and generally be blocked by more rational people at most turns.
That didn't stop Bush from going into Iraq
Quote from: Firebird on February 28, 2016, 05:08:55 AM
Quote from: Pasta Chick on February 28, 2016, 01:57:20 AM
My fear is less of Trump as an individual - I think if elected, he'll blunder around a lot, make a lot noise, push some self-serving BS that has nothing to do with any of his promises, and generally be blocked by more rational people at most turns.
That didn't stop Bush from going into Iraq
You mean Cheney.
;)
-Nam
I think that Bernie is more sympathetic than Hillary. I would however not vote for him (if I could), because he is too much of a socialist.
I am fearful of Republicans, especially when they say things like Sen. Joni Ernst, a Republican from Iowa.
She said, We are looking at ways to get the poor off Obamacare right now. The problem is once people have something they don't want to give it up. Liberals try to cherry pick the Bible and what Jesus taught to justify this. They want you to believe Jesus loved the poor. Jesus said himself in Matthew 25:30, the unprofitable servants should be thrown into hell.Is stealing healthcare form those who can afford it really worth your souls being cast into everlasting darkness?
The poor are deserving of hell? (If such a place existed), but it's more the notion that she would dehumanize, and think them worthless...
Or more importantly as an American I sit here in utter confusion watching the ugliest, and darkest forces of our nation (KKK for example) rally behind the demagogue that is Donald Trump with his calls for more severe torture, and I can start to understand how the middle east is in the shape it is in.
Many people don't care about the disgusting things he say's because they support those very ideas....
Trump supporters in S. Carolina were polled:
38% said they wish the south had won the civil war,
31% said they would support a ban on Gay people entering the US.
80% would support banning Muslims from entering US
...and 44% said they want the religion itself to be illegal to practice in the US
AND...16% said they believe whites are the superior race, another 14% weren't fucking sure.
(Source: Public Policy Polling's Feb 16th poll of GOP voters in S. Carolina)
So yes I'll vote democratic no matter who's chosen, but my thoughts on who that should be are based solely on who I think will have a better chance at winning, I currently believe that is Clinton.
I'm thinking that I'll probably vote for Bernie even if Hillary wins the nomination.
Quote from: jumbojak on February 27, 2016, 08:58:05 PM
Quote from: Firebird on February 27, 2016, 05:38:02 PMWould you still vote for her if she ends up the nominee?
Probably not. I'm not a democrat so I don't have the party loyalty to drag me along and I'm not so scared of the Republicans that I would be likely to vote for the lesser of two weasels just to keep them out. Not yet anyway...
Quote from: Davin on February 29, 2016, 07:47:06 PM
I'm thinking that I'll probably vote for Bernie even if Hillary wins the nomination.
I have to admit you guys saying this scares me, exactly for the reasons Bruno laid out, and others. Hillary pisses me off too, but the alternatives are so much worse. Hell, if Trump or any of these other idealogues get elected, I'm legitimately concerned that my Turkish in-laws might be refused entry to visit us because they come from a Muslim country, Don't laugh, they could easily restrict the number of tourist visas in the name of "safety".
I'm voting for Bernie tomorrow, but if it's Hillary as the nominee, then I'm absolutely voting for her. Please consider the potential consequences otherwise.
Quote from: Firebird on February 29, 2016, 11:26:23 PM
I'm voting for Bernie tomorrow, but if it's Hillary as the nominee, then I'm absolutely voting for her. Please consider the potential consequences otherwise.
Yeah, I prefer Sanders' politics and history, but if Clinton gets the nod I have no heartburn voting for her. Still wish Elizabeth Warren were running tho.
Books, the thing is that Elizabeth is way too smart to run for president. She is one of my favorite pols because she is not a member of the good ole boys contingent. Besides that, she can be a gentile lady and a firebrand at the same time.
Quote from: Davin on February 29, 2016, 07:47:06 PM
I'm thinking that I'll probably vote for Bernie even if Hillary wins the nomination.
That crossed my mind too. It'd be a better showing than just not voting in November. Might help to get the point across.
Quote from: Firebird on February 29, 2016, 11:26:23 PM
Quote from: jumbojak on February 27, 2016, 08:58:05 PM
Quote from: Firebird on February 27, 2016, 05:38:02 PMWould you still vote for her if she ends up the nominee?
Probably not. I'm not a democrat so I don't have the party loyalty to drag me along and I'm not so scared of the Republicans that I would be likely to vote for the lesser of two weasels just to keep them out. Not yet anyway...
Quote from: Davin on February 29, 2016, 07:47:06 PM
I'm thinking that I'll probably vote for Bernie even if Hillary wins the nomination.
I have to admit you guys saying this scares me, exactly for the reasons Bruno laid out, and others. Hillary pisses me off too, but the alternatives are so much worse. Hell, if Trump or any of these other idealogues get elected, I'm legitimately concerned that my Turkish in-laws might be refused entry to visit us because they come from a Muslim country, Don't laugh, they could easily restrict the number of tourist visas in the name of "safety".
I'm voting for Bernie tomorrow, but if it's Hillary as the nominee, then I'm absolutely voting for her. Please consider the potential consequences otherwise.
You see Firebird, it's not that Hillary pisses me off. I really don't think that she would make for a good president. I've voted against the Republicans every year I was able to. What have those votes achieved? Next to nothing. Sure, it helped to keep "them" out, but an incresaing number of "their" ideas seem to be coming from the Democrats. The sound bites are different but the end result seems eerily similar.
Maybe I'm just jaded by the mess we call politics and need a break. I've been on one since January and plan to stay on vacation for a while yet. It wore on me far too much when I was in deep.
Clinton is getting the nomination, and I will vote for her in Nov.
-Nam
Quote from: Icarus on March 01, 2016, 02:11:36 AM
Books, the thing is that Elizabeth is way too smart to run for president. She is one of my favorite pols because she is not a member of the good ole boys contingent. Besides that, she can be a gentile lady and a firebrand at the same time.
So others have told me, and that she can be much more useful out of the White House. Still think she would make a great President.
Quote from: Nam on March 01, 2016, 06:04:19 AM
Clinton is getting the nomination, and I will vote for her in Nov.
-Nam
Quoted for truth and future reference ;D
JJ and I made a bet last year on whether or not Hillary would win the nomination or not. I took Hillary, so iff she does, he has to refer to me as Sir Bruno de la Pole. ;D
If that happens I was thinking to take a trip down to visit with JJ, just so he would have to introduce me to all of his friends and family as Sir....
Also this:
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FF55X8ka.jpg&hash=90672b617d07f449c1aa171e3f25a41f7df880b0)
Quote from: Bruno de la Pole on March 01, 2016, 02:17:55 PM
JJ and I made a bet last year on whether or not Hillary would win the nomination or not. I took Hillary, so iff she does, he has to refer to me as Sir Bruno de la Pole. ;D
If that happens I was thinking to take a trip down to visit with JJ, just so he would have to introduce me to all of his friends and family as Sir....
Also this:
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FF55X8ka.jpg&hash=90672b617d07f449c1aa171e3f25a41f7df880b0)
Yes, this.
JJ, I totally get the frustration, really I do. I don't like that Obama's health care plan came from the Heritage Institute, or that the Clintons represent the DLC "third way" that led to Glass-Steagall repeal and indirectly led to the financial crisis. And whatever other issues you have with her.
But still...if it's Trump, you're talking about a man who's getting endorsements from white supremacist groups for fuck's sake, and Trump's not even bothering to disavow them. That's legitimately scary, and not something we should allow to happen out of pure complacency or anger over Bernie not getting nominated. Anyone who does that will regret their choice by day 2 of President Trump.
Quote from: Bruno de la Pole on March 01, 2016, 02:17:55 PM
If that happens I was thinking to take a trip down to visit with JJ, just so he would have to introduce me to all of his friends and family as Sir....
I think you should. It would look like JJ is introducing his older gay lover who is into S&M.
Quote from: Crow on March 01, 2016, 03:48:14 PM
Quote from: Bruno de la Pole on March 01, 2016, 02:17:55 PM
If that happens I was thinking to take a trip down to visit with JJ, just so he would have to introduce me to all of his friends and family as Sir....
I think you should. It would look like JJ is introducing his older gay lover who is into S&M.
Oh I could play this off handsomely, indeed I could...for JJ's sake ;D
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on February 29, 2016, 11:48:24 PM
Quote from: Firebird on February 29, 2016, 11:26:23 PM
I'm voting for Bernie tomorrow, but if it's Hillary as the nominee, then I'm absolutely voting for her. Please consider the potential consequences otherwise.
Yeah, I prefer Sanders' politics and history, but if Clinton gets the nod I have no heartburn voting for her. Still wish Elizabeth Warren were running tho.
As much as I support Sanders', I will vote for Clinton in a heartbeat if she gets the nomination. The Republican line-up terrifies me.
Quote from: Bruno de la Pole on March 01, 2016, 04:25:03 PM
Quote from: Crow on March 01, 2016, 03:48:14 PM
Quote from: Bruno de la Pole on March 01, 2016, 02:17:55 PM
If that happens I was thinking to take a trip down to visit with JJ, just so he would have to introduce me to all of his friends and family as Sir....
I think you should. It would look like JJ is introducing his older gay lover who is into S&M.
Oh I could play this off handsomely, indeed I could...for JJ's sake ;D
That would be hilarious, however knowing where JJ lives, I'd worry you both would end up getting shot!
Last night I jokingly, whistfully said I missed the good ol' days where all we had to worry about was whether McCain would die and leave his running mate in charge, or Romney was actually a sociopath.
Come to find out there's apparently a rumor that the Koch Bros, etc are trying to round up funding to get Romney in the race before primaries close. :-X
Quote from: Firebird on February 29, 2016, 11:26:23 PM
Quote from: jumbojak on February 27, 2016, 08:58:05 PM
Quote from: Firebird on February 27, 2016, 05:38:02 PMWould you still vote for her if she ends up the nominee?
Probably not. I'm not a democrat so I don't have the party loyalty to drag me along and I'm not so scared of the Republicans that I would be likely to vote for the lesser of two weasels just to keep them out. Not yet anyway...
Quote from: Davin on February 29, 2016, 07:47:06 PM
I'm thinking that I'll probably vote for Bernie even if Hillary wins the nomination.
I have to admit you guys saying this scares me, exactly for the reasons Bruno laid out, and others. Hillary pisses me off too, but the alternatives are so much worse. Hell, if Trump or any of these other idealogues get elected, I'm legitimately concerned that my Turkish in-laws might be refused entry to visit us because they come from a Muslim country, Don't laugh, they could easily restrict the number of tourist visas in the name of "safety".
I'm voting for Bernie tomorrow, but if it's Hillary as the nominee, then I'm absolutely voting for her. Please consider the potential consequences otherwise.
No kind words from me, I'll just get to the point: that you think I haven't thought of the potential consequences is bullshit. Keep your banal condescension to yourself.
If however, you want to have a conversation like a grown up, I'm open to that.
I'm tired of the defacto two party system. I'm tired of people trying to scare me into the status quo. I'm tired of taking the lesser of two poisons. I'm tired of being held hostage to either Democrats or Republicans who care more about bowing to the whims of their own party than anything else.
The problem, is that people are too afraid to vote for anything other than one or the other party. That's not going to change by people only voting for one or the other party. It's only going to change if people vote outside of the two parties. I know that Bernie is a Democrat, but I am not going to vote for a third party just to vote for a third party, I really think that Bernie would help turn the country around. I also think that Hillary won't, at most it will be a slower decline than Drumpf, but it will still be a decline on everyone but the most wealthy.
I'll happily vote for a Democrat so long as it is Bernie Sanders (or Elizabeth Warren), but if the Democratic nominee turns out to be Hillary, I will likely not be voting for her.
If Bush II's efforts didn't destroy the country (though it did get pretty bad), then Drumpf isn't going to be able to destroy the country in 4-8 years. And maybe America needs one more war mongering, corporation babying idiot to further hurt the country before they finally wake up and see the damage that is being caused by subjugating the poor to prop up the wealthy. Maybe people need to be hurt some more before they realize that they have more power than the ones holding the sticks.
A bit of a rant, sure. But I think the message is clear: fuck your condescension and maybe you need to think about what you're doing instead of just following the group. And doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result is inefficient, stupid, and insane.
Quote from: Davin on March 01, 2016, 07:25:13 PM
A bit of a rant, sure. But I think the message is clear: fuck your condescension and maybe you need to think about what you're doing instead of just following the group. And doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result is inefficient, stupid, and insane.
I was not being condescending, I was merely expressing my opinion and why I disagree with you and JJ. Whatev, not interested in debating tactics in anger.
Quote from: Firebird on March 01, 2016, 09:57:30 PM
Quote from: Davin on March 01, 2016, 07:25:13 PM
A bit of a rant, sure. But I think the message is clear: fuck your condescension and maybe you need to think about what you're doing instead of just following the group. And doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result is inefficient, stupid, and insane.
I was not being condescending, I was merely expressing my opinion and why I disagree with you and JJ. Whatev, not interested in debating tactics in anger.
I disagree. You were being condescending, whether it was conscious or not I cannot say, but presuming that I had not thought through the consequences of my choices is condescending.
If you cannot discuss these things without getting angry, then no worries, have fun.
Quote from: Davin on March 02, 2016, 01:58:39 PM
If you cannot discuss these things without getting angry, then no worries, have fun.
I was referring to you, not me. I'm not the one who aggressively responded with "fuck your condescension". You want to tell me I'm wrong and why, go right ahead and I'll have a debate, I have no problem being told I'm wrong. But if you're going to get this defensive, then forget it.
Davin, I think you're over reacting, I don't think Firebird had hostile intent.
Anyway I'm going to bed, no scratching each others eyes out while I'm gone.
Quote from: Firebird on March 02, 2016, 02:21:51 PM
Quote from: Davin on March 02, 2016, 01:58:39 PM
If you cannot discuss these things without getting angry, then no worries, have fun.
I was referring to you, not me. I'm not the one who aggressively responded with "fuck your condescension". You want to tell me I'm wrong and why, go right ahead and I'll have a debate, I have no problem being told I'm wrong.
Then I don't understand, I'm not angry not am I likely to get angry. That doesn't mean that I'm going to put up with bullshit.
Quote from: FirebirdBut if you're going to get this defensive, then forget it.
What do you expect someone to do when attacked?
Quote from: Bad Penny on March 02, 2016, 02:36:13 PM
Davin, I think you're over reacting, I don't think Firebird had hostile intent.
Anyway I'm going to bed, no scratching each others eyes out while I'm gone.
I'm not overreacting, I'm clearly stating the kind of bullshit I'm not going to put up with. It should be an easy thing to have a discussion without being condescending or making irrational assumptions.
Gentlemen. Stop it.
I think the sentiment of Davin's post is correct, leaving aside the condescending part.
The two party system is utter crap and it's a shame that people are too scared to veer away from it. Bernie Sanders is running as a Democrat but from what I understand that's a recent affiliation and in all but the name he's really an independent. Or he's certainly a huge step in the right direction away from the current Democrat party anyway.
As for who is more electable polls have shown that both Hillary and Bernie could defeat Trump but only Bernie comes out above the other Republicans. (see for details http://edition.cnn.com/2016/03/01/politics/donald-trump-hillary-clinton-bernie-sanders-poll/ )
If I were an American I probably would do all I could to stop a Republican president but I wouldn't be happy with Clinton. So while there is still a chance to have an alternative to both Republicans and the Clintons I'd be doing all I could to get Bernie in. My understanding is probably quite basic as I clearly don't live there but my impression is that the Clinton favoured states have come early in the cycle, I think Bernie's best states are to come and you only have to look at how far he's come in the past few months. I think I'm also right in understanding that Obama didn't lead in terms of delegates until much much later than this (May, I believe). Also, something that is confusing me is the delegate count that is floating around includes the superdelegates? Well they aren't set in stone, so if Bernie wins the popular vote surely not all of them would go with Hillary?
I can understand people being jaded and fed up with the system. But who benefits from this? The people who don't want change, no-one else!
Quote from: Claireliontamer on March 02, 2016, 06:50:17 PMAlso, something that is confusing me is the delegate count that is floating around includes the superdelegates? Well they aren't set in stone, so if Bernie wins the popular vote surely not all of them would go with Hillary?
Actually, it has happened that Hillary got all the super delegates on a huge defeat.
In New Hampshire, Bernie got 60% of the vote, Hillary got 38%. Huge victory for Bernie? Yep. He got 15 delegates while she got only 9. But what's this? 6 super delegates and all of them voted for Hillary. So a 20 point lead ended Bernie with a tie.
This video should help "clarify" why that happened: http://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2016/02/13/superdelegates-bernie-sanders-hillary-clinton-debbie-wasserman-schultz-lead.cnn/video/playlists/bernie-sanders-2016/ (http://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2016/02/13/superdelegates-bernie-sanders-hillary-clinton-debbie-wasserman-schultz-lead.cnn/video/playlists/bernie-sanders-2016/)
Quote from: Davin on March 02, 2016, 06:57:31 PM
Quote from: Claireliontamer on March 02, 2016, 06:50:17 PMAlso, something that is confusing me is the delegate count that is floating around includes the superdelegates? Well they aren't set in stone, so if Bernie wins the popular vote surely not all of them would go with Hillary?
Actually, it has happened that Hillary got all the super delegates on a huge defeat.
In New Hampshire, Bernie got 60% of the vote, Hillary got 38%. Huge victory for Bernie? Yep. He got 15 delegates while she got only 9. But what's this? 6 super delegates and all of them voted for Hillary. So a 20 point lead ended Bernie with a tie.
This video should help "clarify" why that happened: http://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2016/02/13/superdelegates-bernie-sanders-hillary-clinton-debbie-wasserman-schultz-lead.cnn/video/playlists/bernie-sanders-2016/ (http://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2016/02/13/superdelegates-bernie-sanders-hillary-clinton-debbie-wasserman-schultz-lead.cnn/video/playlists/bernie-sanders-2016/)
I get that but I thought (and I could well be wrong) that the superdelegates didn't actually fully declare until the conference itself?
They can, but it's not common. Once they declare, there aren't many that change their support. But it's not impossible, and maybe with enough public outcry, they may change to be proportional.
At least as far as I understand it. It's a right mess trying to get solid information.
Quote from: Claireliontamer on March 02, 2016, 06:50:17 PM
The two party system is utter crap and it's a shame that people are too scared to veer away from it. Bernie Sanders is running as a Democrat but from what I understand that's a recent affiliation and in all but the name he's really an independent. Or he's certainly a huge step in the right direction away from the current Democrat party anyway.
Specifically, he's an independent but caucuses with the Democrats.
Quote from: Claireliontamer on March 02, 2016, 06:50:17 PM
My understanding is probably quite basic as I clearly don't live there but my impression is that the Clinton favoured states have come early in the cycle, I think Bernie's best states are to come and you only have to look at how far he's come in the past few months. I think I'm also right in understanding that Obama didn't lead in terms of delegates until much much later than this (May, I believe).
Obama did much better against Hillary in '08 by this point than Bernie has done, he was only down by a handful of delegates. And there are other reasons that the momentum is on Hillary's side. The Clintons have always been popular among African-Americans, and Bernie absolutely needed to make inroads with them to remain competitive in the upcoming states, and he hasn't; he got crushed by 50 points in South Carolina. Obama started to pull away from Hillary once it was shown he could cut into her perceived "firewall" with African-American voters.
Quote from: Claireliontamer on March 02, 2016, 06:50:17 PM
Also, something that is confusing me is the delegate count that is floating around includes the superdelegates? Well they aren't set in stone, so if Bernie wins the popular vote surely not all of them would go with Hillary?
Possibly, but again Hillary comes from a position of strength here, as the superdelegates are part of the establishment and Bernie would need to win them over. The fact that he's not technically a member of the party will probably hurt him there.
Believe me, I wish it were otherwise (I voted for Bernie) but facts are facts. I am definitely more and more concerned about how Hillary would fare against Trump. 3 months ago I would have been certain she'd wipe the floor with him. Now I don't know. The Trump phenomenon has upset many of the precedents about American politics over the past 30 years.
If Hilary Clinton picks Bernie Sanders for Vice President, and he accepts, she'll get almost all of Bernie's supporters, I believe.
-Nam
Quote from: Nam on March 03, 2016, 09:07:33 PM
If Hilary Clinton picks Bernie Sanders for Vice President, and he accepts, she'll get almost all of Bernie's supporters, I believe.
-Nam
That would be an interesting ticket. Do you think it's a possibility?
Yeah, I think it's possible. Some people are throwing out a Clinton/Warren ticket and while Sanders and Warren are pretty much the same politically, the vast majority of people do not know Warren, and Sanders' supporters are invested in Sanders.
I just don't think Sanders would accept since he's about changing policy, and as Vice President he's just, basically, a top Ambassador. No real power to do anything.
-Nam
Quote from: Tank on March 03, 2016, 09:18:57 PM
Quote from: Nam on March 03, 2016, 09:07:33 PM
If Hilary Clinton picks Bernie Sanders for Vice President, and he accepts, she'll get almost all of Bernie's supporters, I believe.
-Nam
That would be an interesting ticket. Do you think it's a possibility?
I thought they were vying for that angle early in the primaries, since they were being pretty supportive of eachother in the beginning and really avoiding smear tactics.
Quote from: Nam on March 03, 2016, 09:45:43 PM
I just don't think Sanders would accept since he's about changing policy, and as Vice President he's just, basically, a top Ambassador. No real power to do anything.
-Nam
I think Nam's right. Becoming her VP undercuts his stated mission of political revolution.
Quote from: Pasta Chick on March 03, 2016, 11:30:56 PM
Quote from: Tank on March 03, 2016, 09:18:57 PM
Quote from: Nam on March 03, 2016, 09:07:33 PM
If Hilary Clinton picks Bernie Sanders for Vice President, and he accepts, she'll get almost all of Bernie's supporters, I believe.
-Nam
That would be an interesting ticket. Do you think it's a possibility?
I thought they were vying for that angle early in the primaries, since they were being pretty supportive of eachother in the beginning and really avoiding smear tactics.
Doesn't really mean a thing other than perhaps not coming off like the Republicans at the moment who are doing nothing but that.
-Nam