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Interesting question. I think in the vast majority of cases, no it isn't child abuse. I think even the most religious of families genuinely have the child's best interests at heart. If they believe not following a religion will result in their child suffering eternal torment in hell for example than of course as parents they want to protect their child from that if that's what they believe.
However, I think there are certainly cases where it does border on child abuse, particularly emotional abuse even if that isn't their intention. Emotional abuse is when a parent or caregiver harms a child's mental and social development, or causes severe emotional harm. I can certainly think of examples where kids have been isolated socially and have ended up with mental turmoil due to their parent's beliefs.
A more extreme case would be something like this http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jan/08/woman-jailed-five-years-children-syria where the mother took her children to join ISIS. Now in some ways I don't think the mother is to blame as she's clearly been influenced by the ISIS recruiters and again she might believe she's doing the right thing for her children.
There's also this horrific story http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/08/more-cases-ritual-child-abuse-linked-witchcraft-beliefs-reported-police and others like it where the parents have believed the child to be 'infected' by the devil. That's certainly abuse.
While I'm not sure if abuse is always applicable, I do think it is bad practice.
I know that the religious bullshit fucked up my understanding of reality for most of my youth. It was wrong of my parents to pretend to have honestly investigated the religious bullshit, it was wrong of them to lie to me about all the researching they did that turned out to their religion being true, and it was wrong of them to instill in their children the idea that doubt is the devil trying to trick them.
Also, I think wanted to protect their children from the harm of hell and may have thought that living under those silly rules made their kids lives better, but I don't think that ignorance is an excuse. Especially not nowadays. If one is going to take responsibility for the life a person, then it is on them to make sure that they are doing right by those under their care otherwise that falls under negligence.
Chopping body parts off babies is most definitely abuse, should be illegal in my opinion.
I think this whole issue gets very murky when you start trying to pin down exactly what defines "abuse". A popular opinion seems to be that it's only abuse if you have poor or aggressive intentions. But abuse can come from a legitimate feeling of "it's for their own good", and I think religion amplifies that with the threat of hell for lack of compliance. You might feel kinda icky and wrong about what you're doing, but the proposed alternative is fire and brimstone.
Quote from: Hardvark on April 15, 2016, 08:42:38 PM
Chopping body parts off babies is most definitely abuse, should be illegal in my opinion.
Even during the past when cleanliness was an issue, and still is in some parts of the world?
Female circumcision I totally agree is barbaric but male circumcision is always abuse?
-Nam
Quote from: Nam on April 15, 2016, 09:42:54 PM
Quote from: Hardvark on April 15, 2016, 08:42:38 PM
Chopping body parts off babies is most definitely abuse, should be illegal in my opinion.
Even during the past when cleanliness was an issue, and still is in some parts of the world?
Female circumcision I totally agree is barbaric but male circumcision is always abuse?
-Nam
Male circumcision or any other procedure on medical grounds is fine by me, lopping bits off for religious reasons is abuse.
What if their god wasn't happy with the five toes on each foot, or earlobes?
Maybe we are lucky he was obsessed with foreskins.
Yes, but don't they originally coincide? If the Hebrews didn't say "This is God's command" back in the day (or in some parts of the world today that religion plays a huge role and cleanliness does not) do the you think those people would have done it? I mean, it's a sensitive part of the male anatomy. Of course not. Today, in most places it's not necessary however, religious people (the ones who truly believe) can't ignore a command such as that by their god(s).
A lot of what's in Scripture concerning such things aren't necessary today but it's difficult to wean people off all they know. You, and others call it abuse because of your current knowledge of health and while many religious people have that knowledge too it's not abuse in their minds because their god advocates it. That's saying their god is wrong -- if you were religious how would you like to be the one hearing that?
Now, medical doctors should know better, and some do. After all my medical doctor when I was born was a Lt. Colonel in the US Army, and he told my parents it wasn't necessary for me to get circumcised, and he explained to my Christian parents why and I wasn't.
Most know but some who are ignorant are ignorant because of their religion but it started in their religion for a good reason and in their minds: if it was good then, why not now?
That's how you have to approach it with the religious. Not say they're abusers or their god is. You'll get nowhere with such rhetoric.
-Nam
Quote from: Nam on April 16, 2016, 04:17:38 PM
Yes, but don't they originally coincide? If the Hebrews didn't say "This is God's command" back in the day (or in some parts of the world today that religion plays a huge role and cleanliness does not) do the you think those people would have done it? I mean, it's a sensitive part of the male anatomy. Of course not. Today, in most places it's not necessary however, religious people (the ones who truly believe) can't ignore a command such as that by their god(s).
A lot of what's in Scripture concerning such things aren't necessary today but it's difficult to wean people off all they know. You, and others call it abuse because of your current knowledge of health and while many religious people have that knowledge too it's not abuse in their minds because their god advocates it. That's saying their god is wrong -- if you were religious how would you like to be the one hearing that?
Now, medical doctors should know better, and some do. After all my medical doctor when I was born was a Lt. Colonel in the US Army, and he told my parents it wasn't necessary for me to get circumcised, and he explained to my Christian parents why and I wasn't.
Most know but some who are ignorant are ignorant because of their religion but it started in their religion for a good reason and in their minds: if it was good then, why not now?
That's how you have to approach it with the religious. Not say they're abusers or their god is. You'll get nowhere with such rhetoric.
-Nam
Because that's like saying, stoning people to death was started for a 'good' reason, if it was 'good' then, why not now?
And I don't care if I offend the religious, they offend me.
If god was the one doing the act of circumcision I would agree, but it is his followers that practice it in his name, you would think the almighty would have got the design of the penis right in the first place, but as we know his incompetence is legendary.
Ashura
Warning NSFW or those who do not like grizzly images
Spoiler
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Only with religion.
Decided to bump this thread rather than start another.
The Jehovah's Witnesses are in the sights this time, in term of having rules that protect offenders and using religion as a barrier to reporting.
Children who were sexually abused by Jehovah's Witnesses were allegedly told by the organisation not to report it. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-42025255)
Apart from allegedly being told that reporting the offences, "...would bring reproach on Jehovah..." the cult's rules that "two witnesses" are necessary is self defeating. Any offender with more than two brain cells to talk to each other (yeah, OK, I agree) would ensure that there were no other witnesses.
Child abuse is not restricted to religions but they do seem to have greater inclination and more rules, as groups, to defend their members from the law.
Again, it's part of the rule that the more formally organized any religion gets, the worse it gets morally and legally. If it's kept informal and personal, it can motivate folks to do good things. When it becomes another corporation, it gets corrupted.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on November 21, 2017, 02:57:55 PM
Again, it's part of the rule that the more formally organized any religion gets, the worse it gets morally and legally. If it's kept informal and personal, it can motivate folks to do good things. When it becomes another corporation, it gets corrupted.
Hmm, something to think about there, Bruce. I have often likened religions to industries but never linked their internal govenance to that. What is the analogue of the profit motivation. But, as before, an organised vertical hierachy implied authority or power and the possibility of corruption.
Also your mention of a "personal" belief seems, to me, to link the core intention of humanism to religion - stripping the origin and ideological issues away.
Pish posh, hogwash!
Religion is not child abuse. It offers children hope in this world and the world to come.
And what of Sufi Islam,Unitarianism, Reform Judaism and Progressive "Catholocism" (good joke.. I know!)
Are those abusive faiths?
Balderdash!
Religion is child abuse. It forces children into a world view that makes fantasy more important than reality.
And "what aboutism?" I guess we need more of that.
Yes, religions are abusive.
Quote from: SisterAgatha on November 21, 2017, 05:19:36 PM
And what of Sufi Islam,Unitarianism, Reform Judaism and Progressive "Catholocism" (good joke.. I know!)
Are those abusive faiths?
Like anything humans do, it depends on how they're used. They can be, and often are, extremely abusive to everyone but it's particularly bad with children who are so helpless and impressionable.
Personally, I think Bruce is onto something in thinking religion should be keep informal and personal.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on November 21, 2017, 10:55:55 PM
Quote from: SisterAgatha on November 21, 2017, 05:19:36 PM
And what of Sufi Islam,Unitarianism, Reform Judaism and Progressive "Catholocism" (good joke.. I know!)
Are those abusive faiths?
Like anything humans do, it depends on how they're used. They can be, and often are, extremely abusive to everyone but it's particularly bad with children who are so helpless and impressionable.
Personally, I think Bruce is onto something in thinking religion should be keep informal and personal.
Yes, it is the enforced infliction - beyond the bounds of "natural" moral and ethical education - of beliefs, rules and values that is offensive. Unfortunstely too many parents seem to have given up the job of moral and ethical education to schools and religions - beyond the, "Don't do that, it annoys me!" level.
The problem is, the kids don't realise what's being done to them.
I'll consider child abuse a spectrum unpleasantness, from the really nasty stuff to minor, like resorting to fast food occasionally.
Instances of religioning (1) of kids could fit anywhere on the spectrum, or conceivably escape it altogether. If parents did an excellent job in other areas and explained the options to their belief, didn't do the fear thing, encouraged questioning and were otherwise nauseatingly wonderful, I don't think it would be abuse.
(1)Yes, religioning is a word, now.
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religion should be keep informal and personal.
But then how would you know just how wrong you are?
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Quote from: No one on November 23, 2017, 03:35:52 AM
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religion should be keep informal and personal.
But then how would you know just how wrong you are?
I think it doesn't necessarily make any difference if it's right or wrong, as long as it's useful to you and you keep it to yourself.
Quote from: Tank on November 23, 2017, 07:07:53 AM
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It is child abuse!
GDMFkrs!!! :grrr:
...And that doesn't mean, "Good Day My Friends." :rant1:
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on November 23, 2017, 08:32:34 AM
Quote from: No one on November 23, 2017, 03:35:52 AM
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religion should be keep informal and personal.
But then how would you know just how wrong you are?
I think it doesn't necessarily make any difference if it's right or wrong, as long as it's useful to you and you keep it to yourself.
With you there, Sandy. The nature of private belief, where it is not forced on another and dies no damage to the believer or others, is a matter purely for the individual. If it makes them a better person the world benefits.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on November 23, 2017, 08:32:34 AM
Quote from: No one on November 23, 2017, 03:35:52 AM
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religion should be keep informal and personal.
But then how would you know just how wrong you are?
I think it doesn't necessarily make any difference if it's right or wrong, as long as it's useful to you and you keep it to yourself.
The key question is "does it inspire you to do good?"
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on November 24, 2017, 04:12:10 AM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on November 23, 2017, 08:32:34 AM
Quote from: No one on November 23, 2017, 03:35:52 AM
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religion should be keep informal and personal.
But then how would you know just how wrong you are?
I think it doesn't necessarily make any difference if it's right or wrong, as long as it's useful to you and you keep it to yourself.
The key question is "does it inspire you to do good?"
I don't know that I would restrict it that much. It would be great if X religion did inspire the believer to do good, but I think just giving them comfort is enough.
Quote from: SisterAgatha on November 21, 2017, 05:19:36 PM
Pish posh, hogwash!
Religion is not child abuse. It offers children hope in this world and the world to come.
I was not convinced that my religion offered me hope in this world. As a child, I was convinced that this world was full of trouble and heartbreak and pain, but yes, the world to come was going to be wonderful... As long as I remained fairly perfect in this life.
That demanding of perfection was its own special form of child maltreatment.
But the installment of fear of the rapture and what would happen if I was left behind, because I had sinned, was actual abuse.
The theft of peaceful sleep EVERY SINGLE NIGHT of my life for about 9 years, the breaking down of my worth as a person, the shame instilled in me for my normal physiological make-up and physical desires.... that was emotional abuse.
"Spare the rod, spoil the child" being implemented for every infraction (and applauded by other church members).... that was physical abuse.
Now, some may say these are just normal issues of having grown up in my era, but that doesn't make these things healthy or ok in any way. Especially when combined with the idea of God watching and judging every single deed, every single thought.
Thank the FSM that I escaped that bullshit.
Again, is it not the style and substance of the religion that is child abuse not "religion" itself.
Next youll say feeding a child is child abuse. There is a huge difference between feeding a child apples as opposed to feeding it broken glass
Quote from: SisterAgatha on December 01, 2017, 04:09:13 PM
...
Next youll say feeding a child is child abuse. There is a huge difference between feeding a child apples as opposed to feeding it broken glass
Feeding a child too much is child abuse.
If you had children I'm sure you would just shove all that religious crap down you child's throat, wouldn't you? Poor kid. :headshake: