This is an interesting question: if you could push a button that would tell you if god exists (and for simplicity's sake, let's assume this is all it would take), would you? Could You Handle the Truth? (http://www.sltrib.com/home/3446377-155/kirby-could-you-handle-the-truth?fullpage=1):
QuoteWhat if you could learn whether the religion you follow is true simply by pushing a button?
No more need for faith. Now you could actually know instead of just believing that you do. Would you push the button? Even if knowing the truth might make you really unhappy?
It's a fair question, considering how many religions claim to be the one true way. Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Islam and the countless versions of each, they can't all be "true." Right?
Just to make things interesting, let's include atheists, agnostics, Satanists, pagans, cannibals and anyone who votes for Donald Trump. Everyone can know truth about their beliefs.
(Not really sure why Kirby is including cannibals in this group. Trying to be funny, I suppose. Can kind of see including Trump supporters tho)
Assuming that this button is acceptable as evidence, I'd push it. That's all I've ever asked for anyway. But I would want this button to also tell me which version of god is real, if any of them is. I need to know this just as much as theists do. Acknowledging a god exists in the presence of convincing evidence is the easy part; I'd also need information for the hard part: deciding whether or not to worship it.
I'd press it in an instant. Knowledge is important whether one likes it or not.
I could handle it either way. I don't like being wrong, but I'm also adult enough to take it in stride.
It would take more than a truth button, however, as I am prone to suspecting such imaginary devices of lying.
His Greyness is right - before accepting the button's verdict I should want absolute proof that it is reliable. I suggest another button which gives the truth about the first button. Oh, yes, and ....
Does the button give you details, or is it just a yes/no deal?
If it gives details, I'd push that thing in a millisecond. I would fight for my chance to push that button.
If it simply tells you yes or no, I'd pass. This is part of why I'm atheist to begin with. There are thousands of religions, millions of interpretations of them, and infinite options we've not even explored. Of course I'd be wrong. Most likely we'd all be wrong.
Quote from: Pasta Chick on January 26, 2016, 05:41:59 PM
Does the button give you details, or is it just a yes/no deal?
That's my question -- apparently non-believers get a yes/no answer, and believers only get told if their particular belief is right. I'd push the button anyway, but that's just not enough information to work with.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on January 26, 2016, 11:17:03 PM
Quote from: Pasta Chick on January 26, 2016, 05:41:59 PM
Does the button give you details, or is it just a yes/no deal?
That's my question -- apparently non-believers get a yes/no answer, and believers only get told if their particular belief is right. I'd push the button anyway, but that's just not enough information to work with.
I would think skeptics such as ourselves would be more inclined to push the button, but I have to believe that many,many believers would be scared to put their faith to the test...if there is a god ideally that's all it is, a creator of the universe who more or less is one not requiring faith or worship by it's creations, so everyone else who is a believer would be informed when they pushed the button that their particular belief is wrong, because all the religions are wrong.
Pero, Bruno, what if the button reveals that a certain religion is right...that whoever utters the name of, He who has no name, must be put to death? :run!:
I would want the button to reveal something totally different than what we've come up with, when it comes to religion, so far...You know, give me something new, something fresh, something that feels good and won't kill me. ;D
Quote from: Magdalena on January 27, 2016, 03:53:25 AM
Pero, Bruno, what if the button reveals that a certain religion is right...that whoever utters the name of, He who has no name, must be put to death? :run!:
I would want the button to reveal something totally different than what we've come up with, when it comes to religion, so far...You know, give me something new, something fresh, something that feels good and won't kill me. ;D
Señora Magdalena, that's why I said ideally the button would reveal that all or our religions here on earth are wrong, every single one of them.
Basically there is a creator, but no religion is required...god is simply no different than a quark, or a neutron. Shit it's too late for this, my point mainly was that I thought that skeptics would be more inclined than believers to discover the truth.
:redface:
I agree with Bruno that skeptics would be more inclined to seek the truth. As Asmo reminded us, we'd want more assurance that the button would reveal the real truth, not some bullshit gimmick dreamed up by an evangelical preacher in a mega church.
It would be good if there is a true religion, but it's buried deep in the Congo. Nobody there even hears about the button so they never press it to get the 'Yes'.
Quote from: Bruno de la Pole on January 27, 2016, 03:26:13 AM
I would think skeptics such as ourselves would be more inclined to push the button, but I have to believe that many,many believers would be scared to put their faith to the test...if there is a god ideally that's all it is, a creator of the universe who more or less is one not requiring faith or worship by it's creations, so everyone else who is a believer would be informed when they pushed the button that their particular belief is wrong, because all the religions are wrong.
If this were anything other than a thought experiment, I'd want time before pushing the button to make bets with theists in line about the nature of god, if it turns out there is one and we get that piece of info. I'd be willing to bet serious coin that the true nature of god would surprise them a good deal more than me.
Wait, are we talking about pushing a button that would tell you if god exists, or tell you whether the religion you follow is true? :???:
Yes, there is a god.
No, there is no god.
OR
Yes, there is a god, and the religion you follow is true.
Yes, there is a god, but the religion you follow interprets God all wrong.
No, there is no god, so the religion you follow is not true.
I'd definitely press it. I think either answer would definitely lead to more questions and probably more bickering amongst humans!
If one religion were true which would you like it to be?
Quote from: Tank on January 27, 2016, 12:37:42 PM
If one religion were true which would you like it to be?
Buddhism. I like the idea of karma!
Yes or no? I wouldn't bother as that is pretty much pointless bit of knowledge that won't change anything.
Quote from: Crow on January 27, 2016, 12:54:04 PM
Yes or no? I wouldn't bother as that is pretty much pointless bit of knowledge that won't change anything.
Christian presses button, gets 'No'.
Muslim presses button, gets 'No'.
Jew presses button, gets 'Yes'.
And you recon that wouldn't change anything.
Quote from: Tank on January 27, 2016, 12:58:58 PM
Quote from: Crow on January 27, 2016, 12:54:04 PM
Yes or no? I wouldn't bother as that is pretty much pointless bit of knowledge that won't change anything.
Christian presses button, gets 'No'.
Muslim presses button, gets 'No'.
Jew presses button, gets 'Yes'.
And you recon that wouldn't change anything.
Nope. Most people would just ignore it, specifically the ones that cause all the problems in the first place calling it the works of evil and propaganda of the Jews. The one that it does affect would be your person who isn't overly religious anyway and replacing religion X with religion Y will be as deep as putting on a new pair of shoes. I take the Buddhist stance on the importance of gods, i.e. they aren't and if they exist or not it bares no basis to our everyday life nor can knowledge be gained from a belief in them.
But the point of the exercise appears to be whether someone would press the button presuming they believe the results. I think we're getting too deep in the weeds when we start pondering who would believe in the button.
And yes, I'd push it.
Asmoism. Which is true and good and right and proper, by the way. >:(
...Oh. And apparently, His quote disappeared. >:( He blames them sneaky Luxemburgers.
Quote from: Magdalena on January 27, 2016, 07:19:16 AM
Wait, are we talking about pushing a button that would tell you if god exists, or tell you whether the religion you follow is true? :???:
Yes, there is a god.
No, there is no god.
OR
Yes, there is a god, and the religion you follow is true.
Yes, there is a god, but the religion you follow interprets God all wrong.
No, there is no god, so the religion you follow is not true.
The article isn't all that clear. I think that non-believers get a yes/no god answer, while believers get only if their religion is the right one (the assumption seems to be that if it isn't, that would be the same as no god to them). I really don't think Kirby thought the question thru as deeply as everyone else is.
Let's assume for our purposes that everyone gets told whether or not any god/s exist and, if it does, what its nature is and which religion came closest to guessing right.
Quote from: Tank on January 27, 2016, 12:37:42 PM
If one religion were true which would you like it to be?
I'll go with Pantheism or, if that's more a philosophy than a religion, then I'll go with Wicca. My dancing in the moonlight days may be over, but I wouldn't mind having 8 holidays a year.
Here's another side question: if there is a god, yes or no to worship? And what would your decision depend on, or would there be any deciding at all -- would it be an automatic yes or no?
I got to thinking of the conditions to worship, and it occurred to me that there must be more options than just yes/no worship. One can admire, love and/or revere without worshipping, after all. I'm not sure I'd be any more capable of worship than I am of faith -- that seems to me to require way more unquestioning emotional commitment than I can muster, even if the god were precisely what I would want if I had to accept a god at all. I don't necessarily hold worship in contempt, I just don't think my mind is wired for it.
Push the button. If theism turns out to be true, convert to a religion - doesn't really matter which one - and push the button again. If the religion you chose turns out to be false convert to another and push the button again. Continue until you receive two affirmative answers. Or, until supper is ready and you give up and decide to go home.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on January 27, 2016, 11:34:40 PM
Here's another side question: if there is a god, yes or no to worship? And what would your decision depend on, or would there be any deciding at all -- would it be an automatic yes or no?
I got to thinking of the conditions to worship, and it occurred to me that there must be more options than just yes/no worship. One can admire, love and/or revere without worshipping, after all. I'm not sure I'd be any more capable of worship than I am of faith -- that seems to me to require way more unquestioning emotional commitment than I can muster, even if the god were precisely what I would want if I had to accept a god at all. I don't necessarily hold worship in contempt, I just don't think my mind is wired for it.
Assuming for the sake of the exercise that the button is accurate in its information, if the button stated that a religion demanding worship was truth, I would worship. If that religion is true, there must be a reason for it.
Unless "worship" involves ritual slaughter or something, then things get morally dicey.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on January 27, 2016, 11:34:40 PM
Here's another side question: if there is a god, yes or no to worship? And what would your decision depend on, or would there be any deciding at all -- would it be an automatic yes or no?
Why would anyone in their right mind worship something? A god is not worthy of worship for just existing in the same manner a parent shouldn't be worshipped by their children for engaging and going through a series of basic biological actions, nor would they be worthy of it if they asked or demanded it. Then secondly if a religion is flagged up as being correct that really doesn't actually say much at all seeing as they are all full to the brim of shit, opposing ideologies, ways to worship and conflicting writing's.
Quote from: Pasta Chick on January 28, 2016, 12:48:56 AM
Unless "worship" involves ritual slaughter or something, then things get morally dicey.
Well, that's the big question. Does worship only involve adoring something but going your own way if conscience dictates, or does it require both adoration and yielding to the will of the adored entity?
I suggest a second button to serve beer so you will be able to handle the truth of the first button. I would press both at least twice - to get more beer and to make sure the truth button is consistent.
I say we make it mandatory.
Every single person has to push the button. Some will still do this, even after pushing the button:
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FmKDE3K2.gif&hash=a0ff3a612fcff2097259362b1d2ad58473e0967e)
I can see a bumper sticker with those words. :smilenod:
Well, I'm glad a believer finally joined the conversation, since I think the question about worship is one only a believer could answer (I don't think most non-believers, at least on this forum, have much experience of worshipping anything).
What's your take, Bruce, on what worshipping entails? Can one disagree and refuse to comply with one's god while still worshipping it, or is obedience to its will a requirement of worship even when your own conscience revolts against one of its commands or wishes?
As an additional point, is worshipping out of fear or hunger for the promised rewards enough, or is there supposed to be something else behind it?
I'm assuming the button provides clarity on the worship issue. If not, then I wouldn't worship.
Just to make things really morally dicey: Say the button indicates the Aztecs were correct, human sacrifice and all. The practice comes back and there are many willing parties who would give their lives on Earth to the Gods. They will be distraught and we as a race will fall upon hard times if they are not sacrificed. And we know this is correct via the button. Do you still refuse to participate?
I say yes. We've been doing all right ignoring the gods so far, and if human sacrifice is what we have to start doing again to survive then we probably shouldn't survive.
Quote from: Pasta Chick on January 29, 2016, 02:13:28 AM
Do you still refuse to participate?
Abso-fucking-lutely. It's a button, I could rig something up from scratch that just outputs yes or no, given enough time and resources I could create a system that can identify the religion. It wouldn't make it true, it wouldn't even really be that hard to do as voice recognition software is pretty good these days, in fact you could build a far more simplistic version using javascript, html and css or just use a quick bit of PHP. You would have a selector (a list of religions), a button to press and an output field (could be type or sound), you only have one yes so that is a unique identifier that signals the output to yes and the rest are all the same that output a no, or you don't even have to have a yes which makes it even easer as you just create a button that says no.
Quote from: Crow on January 29, 2016, 02:49:37 PM
Quote from: Pasta Chick on January 29, 2016, 02:13:28 AM
Do you still refuse to participate?
Abso-fucking-lutely. It's a button, I could rig something up from scratch that just outputs yes or no, given enough time and resources I could create a system that can identify the religion. It wouldn't make it true, it wouldn't even really be that hard to do as voice recognition software is pretty good these days, in fact you could build a far more simplistic version using javascript, html and css or just use a quick bit of PHP. You would have a selector (a list of religions), a button to press and an output field (could be type or sound), you only have one yes so that is a unique identifier that signals the output to yes and the rest are all the same that output a no, or you don't even have to have a yes which makes it even easer as you just create a button that says no.
Man! Crow!
Why did you have to ruin the moment? >:(
Here you come with your:
"I could rig something up from scratch."
"[If I had] enough time and resources I could create a system."
"Voice recognition software."
"Javascript, html and css or just use a quick bit of PHP."
"Selector, output field."
"Signal the output to yes. Reset the output to no."
But just for fun, "Eliminate yes." :snicker:
>:( >:( What the hell, man!? Now, no one wants to play no more. :grrr:
Quote from: Magdalena on January 31, 2016, 06:51:08 AM
>:( >:( What the hell, man!? Now, no one wants to play no more. :grrr:
Its true though. I know it's a think piece but seriously who would trust something that comes from a button, you pressed multiple buttons just to make a post be them physical or digital, they are just a method of output and can be programmed to do almost anything but reveal facts about reality isn't one of them. Never mind basing your outlook on one.
If the think piece was "if you could have a moment of enlightenment showing you the truth would you do it?" I would still say what a crock of shit, ideas are the last thing to trust. Observe your thought process it is all over the place throwing things together to try make some sort of semblance than always viewed through the lens of past experiences with opinions changing all the time. The only one I can think of that I would say yes to would be independently verifiable test the proves the existence of a deity, because that is a starting point of something that can be challenged or for more evidence to be discovered.
Quote from: Crow on January 31, 2016, 12:57:13 PM
The only one I can think of that I would say yes to would be
independently verifiable test the proves the existence of a deity...
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FUfbr5ej.gif%3Fnoredirect&hash=e8663dc1739ec03ed532e92366cf5904b5444e3d)
:grin: