Happy Atheist Forum

I've really been thinking lately about my personal energy and resource consumption. I absolutely cannot stand the idea of receiving oil from the Middle Eastern nations. I can't stand that a lot of my food has to travel significant distances to get to me, further exacerbating oil dependency. Plus there's all the plastics that are oil derivatives.

It's not just about dependency on the Middle East, either. Because it bothers me that I'm on the power grid, too. I feel dependent on electric companies. The majority of electricity in the US comes from burning coal, for which they tear mountains apart with strip mining. It seems like there should be tons of renewable energy available for everyone. Am I wrong?

I saw a commercial the other day for a power company saying that they support electric cars. Well of course they do! They're an electric company! They want to be the power empire instead of the Middle East. It's a step, but it's not enough for me. I want to be able to produce my own power, my own food, and I want to do it with as little waste as possible. It goes way beyond being "green", it's about relying on others as little as is necessary.

Barring natural disaster, I feel like the competition for energy and resources is going to be the ultimate demise of humanity, which is why I feel the way I do. Does anybody feel the same way? Is anybody else a do-it-your-selfer?

The technology now exists to basically "print" solar panel material that is thin, light, and flexible.  Every building should have this on their roof, vertical blinds should be made of the stuff.  But where is it?  Why isn't the government subsidizing this?

I think human beings are like cockroaches, our demise isn't coming any time soon, barring a natural disaster of enormous proportions.  I think civilization could easily go down the tubes, though.

I agree with you.  I am constantly trying to come up with steps to change my energy consumption and limit waste.  I suggest taking it in small steps, because it's easy to get overwhelmed and depressed about the whole thing.  I recently switched from plastic disposable grocery bags to recyclable canvas ones that I will use indefinitely.  I know that it won't make me a contender for the Nobel Prize, but it makes me feel better.  It takes oil to make those disposable bags, so not using them cuts my oil consumption.  My next target is water consumption.  I use too much.  I am also a paper towel monster.

You are right about the fact that there are many other alternatives out there.  I think that the current gas price issue is a great example of how we the consumer drive the American government's priorities on consumption - gas has been high for a relatively short period of time, yet car dealers already can't sell guzzling SUVs and auto plants are closing left and right.  We are a crisis oriented society, and it takes a perceived crisis in order for the public to act.  What we need is to have the public feel that there is an energy crisis, and change will come.  I have a simple example that illustrates my point.  I work in public health, and every year we push people to get vaccinated for influenza.  I live in an area where there are a lot of retired folks, so it's a pretty important issue for them.  For several years, we have had a surplus at the end of the flu season no matter how much we advertise the importance of getting the shot.  A year or two ago, a nationwide shortage was announced in the media (and it turned out not to be a major shortage - we still had enough for everyone) and we couldn't keep the stuff in stock.  It was flying out of our inventory.  One guy even threatened one of our front desk clerks with violence if he didn't get his elderly wife a flu shot.  After that season, no more shortage announcements, and the demand has dropped again.

If you announced that a shortage of energy was imminent and that it would hit Americans in their pocketbooks and they wouldn't be able to afford their swimming pools or Wiis, or whatever, you can bet that legislation pouring money into researching alernative fuels wouldn't be far behind.  I think that the gas crunch is a great thing.  We love crisis, and only respond to crisis.  We don't prepare for the future.

I'm not sure that energy and resource competition is going to result in our demise - we're killing ourselves in so many other ways...

The renewable, self-dependent world you dream about really isn't that far off. In fact there's a company called nanosolar which invented a solar panel that produces energy at a rate cheaper than coal.

The issue is that American media refuses to present the many breakthroughs in alternative energy technology. The products are not reaching a large enough market to become affordable or available to every person, so it is up to the consumer to search them out.

Quote from: "myleviathan"It seems like there should be tons of renewable energy available for everyone. Am I wrong?

Yeah right...like there is some big giant ball of flaming energy out there that we could some how harness! Get real.

Quote from: "tornado"The renewable, self-dependent world you dream about really isn't that far off. In fact there's a company called nanosolar which invented a solar panel that produces energy at a rate cheaper than coal.

Not to be hostile, that doesnt make any sense.

Solar is free when it comes to receiving it. It costs a lot up front, which is the big problem. Then there is just general maintenance which is no big deal.

To compare them, it would have to be over a given period of time at so much power used.


Not that the tech isnt there, the cost is through the roof for any real efficient solar panel. Last I read (I will say it again...last I read) about the best efficiency you could get from a ordinary (silicon is it?) solar panel was in the low teens...11-15%. Different materials work better. They cost a grip though. As if solar didnt already... It is hard to do when the turnover point is around 10 years down the road.

QuoteNot to be hostile, that doesnt make any sense.

Solar is free when it comes to receiving it. It costs a lot up front, which is the big problem. Then there is just general maintenance which is no big deal.

To compare them, it would have to be over a given period of time at so much power used.


Not that the tech isnt there, the cost is through the roof for any real efficient solar panel. Last I read (I will say it again...last I read) about the best efficiency you could get from a ordinary (silicon is it?) solar panel was in the low teens...11-15%. Different materials work better. They cost a grip though. As if solar didnt already... It is hard to do when the turnover point is around 10 years down the road.

I wasn't the one who made the comparison, I was simply paraphrasing an article I had read. Perhaps I was inaccurate in my description, but I don't see how it doesn't make sense to directly compare two sources of energy production.

These new solar panels produce energy at 30 cents a watt as compared to $3 a watt for standard solar panels. This makes the cost of producing these solar panels cheaper than the cost of digging up coal and burning it to produce energy. Perhaps I am misunderstanding the article, read it for yourself and then maybe it will make sense. http://www.celsias.com/2007/11/23/nanos ... than-coal/ (http://www.celsias.com/2007/11/23/nanosolars-breakthrough-technology-solar-now-cheaper-than-coal/)

QuoteYeah right...like there is some big giant ball of flaming energy out there that we could some how harness! Get real.

I know, as if we just have access to these photons everywhere that we could use to power stuff.   I mean people are soooooo   dumb. :D .

At any rate, I think we're at the beginning of a transition point for the human race where there really isn't any comfortable place to be.  Some form of energy has always been a limiting factor though, and oil is really just a blip in history.  I think we'll come through it okay, maybe not unscarred, but nothing like the collapse of modern civilization.

I'm probably the least environment-minded person on Earth. Mostly out of my own selfishness, and I'm the first to admit it.

I'd gladly vote for paving the Sahara desert with solar panels and start using "clean" energy, but before that becomes a real possibility, I have no intention of cutting back my consumption. Not unless I must.

Quote from: "LARA"I think we'll come through it okay, maybe not unscarred, but nothing like the collapse of modern civilization.

What about Waterworld? Heed the signs, people. Follow Kevin Costner to the truth.

Quote from: "LARA"Well that barring a Hydrogen economy or cold fusion

I was hoping for a gravity-powered machine, but I found out sadly this just isn't possible. The force put in will always equal the force put out. Snap.

Quote from: "LARA"I think we'll come through it okay, maybe not unscarred, but nothing like the collapse of modern civilization.

What about Waterworld? Heed the signs, people. Follow Kevin Costner to the truth.

Quote from: "LARA"Well that barring a Hydrogen economy or cold fusion

I was hoping for a gravity-powered machine, but I found out sadly this just isn't possible. The force put in will always equal the force put out. Snap.

Quote from: "tacoma_kyle"Solar is free when it comes to receiving it. It costs a lot up front, which is the big problem.

Wiser words have never been spoken. I've been to some solar panel installer's websites. Financing is always available. Bad sign.

Quote from: "jcm"Yeah right...like there is some big giant ball of flaming energy out there that we could some how harness! Get real.

Man, I was offended at first, then about three seconds later it hit me. Sarcasm. Then I felt better.

There's really no easy solution, except to use less energy. Power is awesome, but it comes at a price. I wish I could just tell myself, fuck it. But I can't. My goal is to become just rich enough to be totally independent, and I'll start a commune where everyone is welcome. And we'll sing and dance and Asmodean will not be invited for his insolence.  

Quote from: "myleviathan"But I can't. My goal is to become just rich enough to be totally independent, and I'll start a commune where everyone is welcome. And we'll sing and dance and Asmodean will not be invited. He's too insolent.  :hide:

Still, just out of curiosity, how many of you can in all honesty say that you are not the same? Though the lower priorities can switch places, all the people I've ever known were interested in their own well being and comfort before any one elses (families and close friends excepted)

In my experience, many people aspire to be better than themselves and failing that, they still think themselves more noble than they are. Well, if it toots their horn, so be it. I, however, prefer being fully aware of who I really am and where I really stand.

Oh... And I can't stand dancing.  

Quote from: "Asmodean"all the people I've ever known were interested in their own well being and comfort before any one elses

That's true. We do what we do for the most part because we want to do it. I can say I want to be totally independent mostly out of selfishness. I don't want to depend on others. That feeling springs from selfishness. I'm not doing it for the polar bears. Although I hope that somewhere out there, the polar bears can frolic in the snow and eat as many seals as they can stomach. And I'll bet that's a lot.

Quote from: "Asmodean"I, however, prefer being fully aware of who I really am and where I really stand.

That's why you should get some kudos. Kudos.

Yes. In the end it's selfishness that drives us. There are probably exceptions, as few rules don't have one. Still, I think people should be more willing to admit it.

My selfishness is telling me that if I rather spend my money on myself than handing it over to the oil-, electricity,- gas- and water companies  

Quote from: "Tom62"My selfishness is telling me that if I rather spend my money on myself than handing it over to the oil-, electricity,- gas- and water companies  

Ah, but the whole point of money is spending it. And personally, I have nothing against dumping mine into state coffers (well, I do when it comes to taxes, but when I do get what I want in return, that's a whole different story)

Ultimately, everyone is responsible for themselves. If things do become bad, I know how to survive (I've got this place picked out in Canada that's amazing). I can build a makeshift cabin over a summer and survive indefinitely assuming I can get a few decent seasons of crops. The only real problem would be dealing with withdrawal fro eating meat, but I have several books on veganism.

I can't stop our corporations and governments from insisting on burning fossil fuels, though I do expend some effort trying to stop them. And that's okay. It's simply the situation I live in. Baring thermonuclear war, I'll probably live a full life. If I don't I'm happy with the life I've lived so far (except for seeing the Alexander the Great movie, my one great regret).

I think we've already established that, overall, atheists are generally more realistic and even intelligent, so it makes sense that we'd find it easier to see the whole picture. This also means that we have a penchant for taking the weight of the world on our shoulders because it seems no one else is working to fix all the great problems.

I'm constantly reminded of the famous Spider-Man quote "With great power comes great responsibility", and a keen intellect is indeed great power. It's important to temper this responsibility with pragmatism, though. In my life, I will probably not be given the opportunity to save the world. If that opportunity DOES present itself, great. If not, that's fine.

You've brought up a subject that's been on my mind a lot lately myleviathan. I've recently read a book called "The Omnivore's Dilemma" and it was quite an eye-opener. As a result, I've gone organic (I thought I would be the last person to do so) and begun killing my own meat. Of course, all this has to do with food almost strictly, but it's interesting how food and energy are intertwined. I'm a huge fan of oil, but I hate that we are beholden to Islamic thugs as a result of our dependence on it.

I don't know, it's just as if I've been subconsciously preparing myself for a post-apocalyptic world. I almost wish for one for the sake of returning to an emphasis on simplicity.

  (Nothing to do with the topic, I just think the dancing banana is cool.)

Quote from: "Willravel"Ultimately, everyone is responsible for themselves. If things do become bad, I know how to survive (I've got this place picked out in Canada that's amazing)

Dude. Canada? It gets cold there. I would choose central Florida for survival any day of the week. Longer crop season, a lot warmer, vast network of artesian springs for water supply... Plus getting a gun here is not much more difficult than buying candy.

Quote from: "rick"and begun killing my own meat.

My mom and I have discussed starting a meat co-op. Everybody invests in calves, helps raise them, slaughter them, and shares meat.

QuoteI almost wish for one for the sake of returning to an emphasis on simplicity.

I hear you there. I feel a sense of loss, even though we live in a great civilization, a longing for a return to that emphasis on simplicity. We need to be responsible for ourselves, which we are for the most part, but not in the most basic ways. Like food, water, heat, clothing, shelter.

Quote from: "rick" (Nothing to do with the topic, I just think the dancing banana is cool.)

That's just awesome. He's kind of, like, humping the air. That banana sure must be horny.

Quote from: "myleviathan"Dude. Canada? It gets cold there. I would choose central Florida for survival any day of the week. Longer crop season, a lot warmer, vast network of artesian springs for water supply... Plus getting a gun here is not much more difficult than buying candy.

Global climate change isn't predictable and I know how to survive in cold better than heat. Not only that, but I've been involved with contractors who are moving into earth sheltering-based construction in the SF Bay area (specifically Los Altos), and I'm familiar with constructing a home partially underground. Combine that level of insulation with a reasonable wood burning stove and you can keep toasty.

As for meat, it's too inefficient. The feed for livestock, poultry or fish could be going to feed yourself or your family, and you can get protein from elsewhere without getting sick. Plenty of very healthy people lead vegetarian or even vegan lifestyles today. Don't get me wrong, I'll miss bacon, but I'll live.

Quote from: "Willravel"As for meat, it's too inefficient.

Cows eat grass. Pigs eat bugs, worms, bark, rotting carcasses and garbage. Chickens eat grubs, bugs, and worms (such as are pervasive in cow and pig dung.). Meat is actually quite efficient and much easier to store and migrate on the hoof. Many farms are doing it and it works well.

Virginia for me, please. Not too hot, not too cold, lots of fertile soil for agriculture and lots of oceanfront for blue crab and stripers.

Quote from: "rick"Cows eat grass.

Grass doesn't grow in the winter.

Quote from: "rick"Pigs eat bugs, worms, bark, rotting carcasses and garbage.

Bark and garbage during the winter, maybe, but no bugs and no worms. More importantly, the amount of food necessary to cover the colder months (even in Virginia) would be rather large.

Quote from: "rick"Chickens eat grubs, bugs, and worms (such as are pervasive in cow and pig dung.).

None of which are available in colder months.

Quote from: "rick"Meat is actually quite efficient and much easier to store and migrate on the hoof. Many farms are doing it and it works well.

Kill all animals in the fall, have no animals in the spring. OR feed the animals through the winter and be inefficient.

Quote from: "rick"Virginia for me, please. Not too hot, not too cold, lots of fertile soil for agriculture and lots of oceanfront for blue crab and stripers.

I'd probably have issues with all the Hillary supporters there...  

Quote from: "Willravel"As for meat, it's too inefficient. The feed for livestock, poultry or fish could be going to feed yourself or your family, and you can get protein from elsewhere without getting sick.

There's always the option of eating the bugs and worms yourself. Insects have a very high protein level for the energy it takes to either collect them or to raise colonies. Much more efficient than livestock, and better for you nutritionally. Not as tasty as bacon though.

In the colder areas of the world, it is possible to collect grubs in bark and trees even in winter. I even knew a guy who kept a 'worm bin' in his house that had compost-eating worms. They thrive all winter long keeping them inside.

Quote from: "Willravel"Global climate change isn't predictable and I know how to survive in cold better than heat.

Our ancestors have been surviving in winter for ages. It's just easier where it's warm.

Quote from: "rick" (Nothing to do with the topic, I just think the dancing banana is cool.)

For some reason, the banana stopped dancing for me.  Dancing banana is a classic "smiley", and it became a big web celebrity in the Peanut Butter Jelly Time video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8MDNFaGfT4) (approaching 7 million views).  Family Guy even made a reference to it with Brian the dog as the dancing banana (http://youtube.com/watch?v=ryhsUQLxFkk).

We now return you to the regularly scheduled energy discussion.....