Happy Atheist Forum

Who are/were the jews?

Jew the race or Judaism the religion?

Are they not the same? Both please.

Ethnicity: Jew is supposed to refer to anyone who is a decedent of Abraham, but it actually means the descendants of the Israelites, a race that once lived in the Middle East alongside with races like assyrians (now persians/syrians). Until as recently, Jew the religious label and Jew tie ethnic label were synonymous because nearly all members of the Jewish race were of the Jewish faith. Physical characteristics include but are not always a combination of caucasian and middle eastern phenotypes.

Religion: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism)

Quote from: "rick"Who are/were the jews?

Here you go:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews)

Ok, now why are you asking?

I ask because theists refer me to the pentateuch as a source of research in defining the jewish identity. I want to know to what extent, if at all, the atheist community disputes this as a valid historical reference. (If the wiki article is any indicator, there is little to no dispute at all.)

The Torah is a mix of religious myths and historical events. I think you'll find that common in most religious texts.

Perhaps. So does the wiki article pass atheist muster? I calculate that if atheists and theists can agree on something, the actual truth can't be far away.

Quote from: "rick"Perhaps. So does the wiki article pass atheist muster? I calculate that if atheists and theists can agree on something, the actual truth can't be far away.

Atheists tend to believe based on evidence. I don't see how the two would ever agree on matters of faith.

Quote from: "rick"Perhaps. So does the wiki article pass atheist muster? I calculate that if atheists and theists can agree on something, the actual truth can't be far away.

Welcome to the forum, Rick.

As soon as theists agree that these books are a load of crap (okay - that's a little hostile...how about a way of explaining the world before we knew better), then we'll be getting somewhere.

Quote from: "jcm"Atheists tend to believe based on evidence. I don't see how the two would ever agree on matters of faith.

I'm not asking about matters of faith. I'm certain atheists and theists are at odds on that one. Do Atheists believe that the Jews are descendants of a fellow named Abraham as the wiki article asserts? If so, then theists and atheists can agree on at least one thing. Theists believe that they are God's chosen people and that their very existence is a result of divine providence. What do atheists believe?

Quote from: "Evolved"As soon as theists agree that these books are a load of crap

I've read elsewhere on this forum that some members question why atheism is failing to spread. I submit this as chief among the reasons. I would like a super-sized order of truth please, hold the rhetoric.

Quote

Quote from: "Evolved"As soon as theists agree that these books are a load of crap

Quote from: "rick"I've read elsewhere on this forum that some members question why atheism is failing to spread. I submit this as chief among the reasons. I would like a super-sized order of truth please, hold the rhetoric.

The truth is that sometimes I get tired of being politically correct.  I do not question why atheism is failing to spread; atheism is spreading.  Atheistic thought is a natural consequence of human progression.

Quote from: "rick"Theists believe that they are God's chosen people and that their very existence is a result of divine providence. What do atheists believe?

Atheists believe that theists are wrong.

Methinks we are being baited by a believer who is parading as someone who has questions.     I hate misdirection and evasion tactics.

There's no reason to believe or disbelieve the existence of Abraham the person as all of the "evidence" of his existence is in the same book as people who are magical. There is plenty of reason to disbelieve the stories in the Torah about Abraham, as they are supernatural and as such are not explainable by natural law. I also don't believe that Aregorn of The Lord of the Rings was a real person, though I can't disprove it.

If Abraham did exist (assumption 1), and his lineage did include the Israelites (assumption 2), there's still nothing to suggest being chosen by a god or gods. It's the divine providence that atheists would take issue with. For example, I would ask, "How do you know that Abraham wasn't schizophrenic?" He heard voices, including one that asked him to murder his own son. I do not find this recounting to be consistent with stable mental health. The Jewish people may have been chosen by god, but it's more likely that the god which chose you exists only as an extension of Abraham's mental illness, and subsequently of religion (which is a combination of group think and denial for most, mental illness for some).

As such, we as atheists can only agree that you were chosen with the asterisk "assuming said god is a figment of one's imagination".

Quote from: "rick"I'm not asking about matters of faith. I'm certain atheists and theists are at odds on that one. Do Atheists believe that the Jews are descendants of a fellow named Abraham as the wiki article asserts? If so, then theists and atheists can agree on at least one thing. Theists believe that they are God's chosen people and that their very existence is a result of divine providence. What do atheists believe?

There is no evidence that god chose these people. Wouldn’t you need faith to believe that?

Quote from: "rlrose328"Methinks we are being baited by a believer who is parading as someone who has questions.  :D  I'm waiting for the "truth".

Quote from: "jcm"There is no evidence that god chose these people. Wouldn’t you need faith to believe that?

Yes.

Thanks for the input everyone.

Quote from: "rick"

Quote from: "jcm"There is no evidence that god chose these people. Wouldn’t you need faith to believe that?

Yes.

Thanks for the input everyone.

Your welcome, glad I could help.

If you are talking about jews as a people (as I seem to understand you are), then I don't understand what the question is. If you are talking about followers of judaism, then I don't understand how this question is best answered by atheists. Ask someone who defines him/herself as a jew about who and what they are.

When it comes to jews as a people and the implication of divine connection, that is something we have to thank theists for.

This has nothing at all to do with atheists and theists agreeing. Personally, and I think I can speak for virtually every atheist on this board, I will agree with anyone who is objectively or when it's called for subjectively correct in their claims regardless of their allegiance.