Happy Atheist Forum

A thought:

Anit-semitism is a prejudice with a pretty complex background and has had many different guises over the centuries. One consistent basis for Christian anti-semitism however seems to be the fact that "the Jews killed Our Lord", or something or other. Disregarding the scriptual arguments for or against this interpretation of the Jesus narrative, isn't it a little absurd to be mad about that, given what Christians are supposed to believe about the crucifixion? Jesus died for our sins, which had to happen in order for people to get to heaven, amiright? So what's to be mad about? Plus, it happened a long friggin' time ago, even for medieval Christians. Jesus being human would have had to have died at some point, surely, even if he wasn't inevitably going to sacrifice himself to redeem humanity. Get over it! Then there's the issue of causation: even if the Jews influenced the decision, it was still the Romans who crucified Christ. Shouldn't Christians be mad at Italians then?

Another contradiction to add to the religion pile.

Jesus was a Jew. I would hope the argument would stop there.

Currently there's a huge trend in pop Christianity toward appreciating its Jewish roots - especially in the more Charismatic denominations. There has been a revived interest in language, cultural events, even financially supporting persecuted Jews in other countries (such as certain former Soviet states). The 'Jews Killed our Lord' mentality is pretty much long gone. At least it is in the main stream.

Quote from: "pjkeeley"A thought:

Anit-semitism is a prejudice with a pretty complex background and has had many different guises over the centuries. One consistent basis for Christian anti-semitism however seems to be the fact that "the Jews killed Our Lord", or something or other. Disregarding the scriptual arguments for or against this interpretation of the Jesus narrative, isn't it a little absurd to be mad about that, given what Christians are supposed to believe about the crucifixion? Jesus died for our sins, which had to happen in order for people to get to heaven, amiright? So what's to be mad about? Plus, it happened a long friggin' time ago, even for medieval Christians. Jesus being human would have had to have died at some point, surely, even if he wasn't inevitably going to sacrifice himself to redeem humanity. Get over it! Then there's the issue of causation: even if the Jews influenced the decision, it was still the Romans who crucified Christ. Shouldn't Christians be mad at Italians then?

Another contradiction to add to the religion pile.

I haven't heard it in a while (I remember hearing people talk about it in church when I was a kid). But it does seem dumb. Jesus had to die and rise from the dead in order for there to be a Christian religion. It's really just another thing to talk about. In one of my small groups, we spent a good chunk of the hour discussing how everyone assumes the fruit in Genesis 3 is an apple, when it might very well be an orange.

Quote from: "Willravel"Jesus was a Jew. I would hope the argument would stop there.

I concur.

Quote from: "susangail"In one of my small groups, we spent a good chunk of the hour discussing how everyone assumes the fruit in Genesis 3 is an apple, when it might very well be an orange.

That discussion would make me want to rip out my tounge with my bare hands, just to see how much of my insides I could pull out along with it.

Quote from: "myleviathan"

Quote from: "susangail"In one of my small groups, we spent a good chunk of the hour discussing how everyone assumes the fruit in Genesis 3 is an apple, when it might very well be an orange.

That discussion would make me want to rip out my tounge with my bare hands, just to see how much of my insides I could pull out along with it.

Good one! I think I'm gonna try that next time my dad or my sister get all Godly on me...

QuoteCurrently there's a huge trend in pop Christianity toward appreciating its Jewish roots - especially in the more Charismatic denominations. There has been a revived interest in language, cultural events, even financially supporting persecuted Jews in other countries (such as certain former Soviet states). The 'Jews Killed our Lord' mentality is pretty much long gone. At least it is in the main stream.

Modern attitudes to Judaism have indeed changed, it hasn't dissappeared from the mainstream completely. Consider Mel Gibson's portrayal of the Jews in the Passion of the Christ, and the controversy surrounding it when that movie came out. Then consider his antisemitic comments following that...

Quote from: "pjkeeley"

QuoteCurrently there's a huge trend in pop Christianity toward appreciating its Jewish roots - especially in the more Charismatic denominations. There has been a revived interest in language, cultural events, even financially supporting persecuted Jews in other countries (such as certain former Soviet states). The 'Jews Killed our Lord' mentality is pretty much long gone. At least it is in the main stream.

Modern attitudes to Judaism have indeed changed, it hasn't dissappeared from the mainstream completely. Consider Mel Gibson's portrayal of the Jews in the Passion of the Christ, and the controversy surrounding it when that movie came out. Then consider his antisemitic comments following that...

Mel F-ing Gibson. What an assface. I'm not sure if he counts as reflecting mainstream beliefs of Christianity, not that I'm defending them. I hope those comments were a drunken attempt at a publicity stunt. I agree with you that anti-semitism hasn't disappeared completely, but from what I've witnessed it seems like it's getting better?? Maybe??

Quote from: "pjkeeley"

QuoteCurrently there's a huge trend in pop Christianity toward appreciating its Jewish roots - especially in the more Charismatic denominations. There has been a revived interest in language, cultural events, even financially supporting persecuted Jews in other countries (such as certain former Soviet states). The 'Jews Killed our Lord' mentality is pretty much long gone. At least it is in the main stream.

Modern attitudes to Judaism have indeed changed, it hasn't dissappeared from the mainstream completely. Consider Mel Gibson's portrayal of the Jews in the Passion of the Christ, and the controversy surrounding it when that movie came out. Then consider his antisemitic comments following that...

Whoa. I saw the Passion but I guess it was awhile ago... How were the Jews portrayed? And what did Gibson say after??

Quote from: "susangail"

Quote from: "pjkeeley"

QuoteCurrently there's a huge trend in pop Christianity toward appreciating its Jewish roots - especially in the more Charismatic denominations. There has been a revived interest in language, cultural events, even financially supporting persecuted Jews in other countries (such as certain former Soviet states). The 'Jews Killed our Lord' mentality is pretty much long gone. At least it is in the main stream.

Modern attitudes to Judaism have indeed changed, it hasn't dissappeared from the mainstream completely. Consider Mel Gibson's portrayal of the Jews in the Passion of the Christ, and the controversy surrounding it when that movie came out. Then consider his antisemitic comments following that...

Whoa. I saw the Passion but I guess it was awhile ago... How were the Jews portrayed? And what did Gibson say after??

Here's a link to the Wikipedia page about Mel's post-Passion of the Christ DUI. Enjoy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mel_Gibson_DUI_incident (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mel_Gibson_DUI_incident)

Quote from: "myleviathan"Here's a link to the Wikipedia page about Mel's post-Passion of the Christ DUI. Enjoy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mel_Gibson_DUI_incident (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mel_Gibson_DUI_incident)

Much appreciated!

QuoteWhoa. I saw the Passion but I guess it was awhile ago... How were the Jews portrayed?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passion_of_the_christ -- scroll down until you get to critical perceptions, has a section on anti-Semitism allegations. I haven't seen the movie but if the description of Jewish characters there is anything to go by it sounds as if he used every racial stereotype of Jews in the book, not to mention portraying Pontius Pilate as a good guy in comparison.

QuoteI agree with you that anti-semitism hasn't disappeared completely, but from what I've witnessed it seems like it's getting better?? Maybe??

Nah I totally agree, to be honest I was just grasping at straws trying to save my thread, after I realised it wasn't exactly a topical issue and therefore probably wasn't going to spur much discussion. Poking holes in religious arguments is one thing, poking holes in outdated and abandoned arguments is just too easy... but when I thought of it I couldn't help myself.  

Quote from: "pjkeeley"I haven't seen the movie but if the description of Jewish characters there is anything to go by it sounds as if he used every racial stereotype of Jews in the book, not to mention portraying Pontius Pilate as a good guy in comparison.

You bring up an interesting point. In my opinion the Passion pretty accurately displayed the account of the death of Jesus in the Gospels. It's no secret that the Gospels and their representations (like the Passion) have cause wide-spread anti-Semitism. The question is: was it intentional?

The whole character of Pontius Pilate is one of great interest here because it shows a despised Roman official showing more compassion on Jesus than his own people did. That's not just the attitude of the Passion, that's the attitude of the Gospels. That sentiment was not placed there by accident. The authors intended to show the cruelty of the Jewish religious leaders by comparing them, Jesus' own people group, to to a cold occupier who normally wouldn't think twice about crucifying a possible threat to Roman rule. Although this isn't outright Jewbashing, it has caused a widespread distrust, loathing and scorn of Jews. I think it helps set up the framework for Jewbashing.

Christians have really attempted to shed themselves from their stereotypes as anti-Semites, especially since the Holocaust. But I think you're onto something. The coals of racism are still smoldering deep in the hearts of main-stream Christians.

Just a note, most of what's called 'anti-semitism' in the Fascist States of America is actually anti-zionism, a complete mischaracterization which mainly rests of the fact that Israel is the single largest lobbying group in the American government (and thus American media).  Not that a lot of people haven't harassed jews entirely unjustly, and for all sorts of retarded reasons including fairy tales about zombie kings, but it's only fair to remember that the prime thing most people in the Judaic tradition (religious and non-religious) have against muslims and Christians is that they aren't the ones doing the harassing.  People who believe in these crazy fairy tales or who bend to it through family, social and economic pressure always complain about persecution until they're the ones holding the whip.  Judaism and Zionism are no more tolerant or rational than Islam or Arab Natioanlism.

You can hate jews without including Israeli politics.

Quote from: "Willravel"You can hate jews without including Israeli politics.

I agree, what I was saying is that most people and things characterized as 'Anti-Semetic' by the popular media and politicoes are, in fact, anti-zionist.

Quote from: "Vichy"I agree, what I was saying is that most people and things characterized as 'Anti-Semetic' by the popular media and politicoes are, in fact, anti-zionist.

Oh, in media? Absolutely. If you even think about the plight of the Palestinians, if you even sympathize with them for a split-second, you're suddenly the next Hitler. They should have a fallacy name for it, like the anti-Godwin.

Yeah, and it's easy to figure out why the Israeli government loves to be right in the middle of their enemies (just as those fascistic arab states love to have convenient Jews nearby).
Anyways, it's pretty contradictory for Christians to be anti-semetic, but almost everything in the Bible is contradicted by something else in the Bible, so they are used to not-analyzing beliefs.

Quote from: "Vichy"Just a note, most of what's called 'anti-semitism' in the Fascist States of America is actually anti-zionism, a complete mischaracterization which mainly rests of the fact that Israel is the single largest lobbying group in the American government (and thus American media).  Not that a lot of people haven't harassed jews entirely unjustly, and for all sorts of retarded reasons including fairy tales about zombie kings, but it's only fair to remember that the prime thing most people in the Judaic tradition (religious and non-religious) have against muslims and Christians is that they aren't the ones doing the harassing.  People who believe in these crazy fairy tales or who bend to it through family, social and economic pressure always complain about persecution until they're the ones holding the whip.  Judaism and Zionism are no more tolerant or rational than Islam or Arab Natioanlism.

I agree with you about the American Public mixing anti-Zionism with Anti-Semitism. ESPECIALLY CHRISTIANS. This really makes me angry. And it goes along with my original post in this thread, that Christians have come to further embrace Judaism at least as an important fore-runner of their faith (even though their religion is misguided without the acceptance of Jesus and they're headed straight to Hell for not realizing the Truth). And like the majority of Jews, Christians are incapbable of separating Judaism from Zionism, because Zionism is an integral part of Judaism. It's written in Psalms that anybody who believes in the One True Monotheistic God of Israel is to pray for the safety, and continuity of Israel. And they won't just pray for it, you better understand that both groups will fight hard for it. In the perspective of both Jews and Christians, the land is as Godly as God is, and in their minds the two are inseperable. Which is an extremely dangerous belief to espouse, especially in the proximity of oil-bearing land. Jews and Christians remind me of Frodo and Gollum, sharing the 'precious' land only for a spell before they end up fighting over it at the very end. We'll see Armageddon yet, for no other reason than Self Fulfilling prophecy. We as non-beleivers can step back and seperate Zionism from Judaism/Christianity. But they can't, and they'll both crusade for Zion when the time comes.

QuoteIsrael is the single largest lobbying group in the American government (and thus American media).

Moving on, could you expound on what you said about Israel being the single largest lobbying group in American Government? I was wondering the source of that information. And when you say Israel, do you mean the country, or American Zionists whether they be Christian or Jews, or whatever? Could you also expound the relationship of the largest lobbing group in America with American media?

Quotethe Fascist States of America

What are the sources for your correlation of Nazi Germany and the US? Or is this just a statement of detest for the US? Just curious.

Cheers.

Here an Israeli commentator warns of pogroms coming in America in response to Jewish participation in liberal movements. A curious read.
http://samsonblinded.org/blog/on-anti-s ... merica.htm (http://samsonblinded.org/blog/on-anti-semitism-in-america.htm)

Quote from: "susangail"In one of my small groups, we spent a good chunk of the hour discussing how everyone assumes the fruit in Genesis 3 is an apple, when it might very well be an orange.

That's silly!  I am currently writing a piece of blasphemous erotica about this very subject.  In my story, the "snake" which tempts Eve is actually Adam's penis on which she tastes the "forbidden fruit" of her genitals which she then convinces Adam to try.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_lob ... ted_States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_lobby_in_the_United_States) Here's a Wiki on it.
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/print/mear01_.html (http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/print/mear01_.html) An article on the Israel Lobby

Fascism is a theory of state-economic organization, Germany had more standard socialism (state ownership vs. intervention/taxation), Italy would be a more typically 'fascist' state, as would the US, where through endless regulation, subsidy, licensing, taxation, government contracts and enormous and endlessly complicated taxes allow the government to influence a great deal of control over the economy, both in its conduct and in who can effectively compete or not.  This is fascism.
http://xxx.mises.org/story/2903 (http://xxx.mises.org/story/2903) What is Fascism?
http://mises.org/story/2450 (http://mises.org/story/2450) American Fascism

Quote from: "Vichy"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_lobby_in_the_United_States Here's a Wiki on it.
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/print/mear01_.html (http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/print/mear01_.html) An article on the Israel Lobby

Fascism is a theory of state-economic organization, Germany had more standard socialism (state ownership vs. intervention/taxation), Italy would be a more typically 'fascist' state, as would the US, where through endless regulation, subsidy, licensing, taxation, government contracts and enormous and endlessly complicated taxes allow the government to influence a great deal of control over the economy, both in its conduct and in who can effectively compete or not. This is fascism.
http://xxx.mises.org/story/2903 (http://xxx.mises.org/story/2903) What is Fascism?
http://mises.org/story/2450 (http://mises.org/story/2450) American Fascism

I see your point about fascism, but only from an economic standpoint. What about all of the other facets of fascism? Most of the definitions posted below indicate an authoritarian government controled by a dictator with no systems for checks and balances. Obviously the word 'fascism' communicates a lot more than your definition. And that you chose to use it to describe the US with no additional explanation makes me think it was meant as an inscendiary comment. Does it make you angry that the US controls business so tightly with complicated taxes, licensing, subsidy, etc.? If so, why? And to what extent?

Here's a quick google definition search for fascism:

Definitions of fascism on the Web:

A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition ...
http://www.mrlambersky.com/terms.html (http://www.mrlambersky.com/terms.html)

A social and political ideology with the primary guiding principle that the state or nation is the highest priority, rather than personal or individual freedoms.
http://www.chgs.umn.edu/Educational_Res ... e_boo.html (http://www.chgs.umn.edu/Educational_Resources/Curriculum/Witness_And_Legacy_-_Teacher_R/Glossary__Teacher_Resource_Boo/glossary__teacher_resource_boo.html)

A system of government that promotes extreme nationalism, repression, anticommunism, and is ruled by a dictator.
regentsprep.org/regents/global/vocab/topic_alpha.cfm

Political philosophy that became predominant in Italy and then Germany during the 1920s and 1930s; attacked weakness of democracy, corruption of capitalism; promised vigorous foreign and military programs; undertook state control of economy to reduce social friction. (p. 870)
occawlonline.pearsoned.com/bookbind/pubbooks/stearns_awl/medialib/glossary/gloss_F.html

An ideology that combines dictatorial government, militarism, control of the personal freedom, extreme nationalism, and government control of business. ...
http://www.personal.psu.edu/faculty/a/c ... ossary.htm (http://www.personal.psu.edu/faculty/a/c/ach13/Asia/Glossary.htm)

is a political ideology and mass movement that seeks to place the nation, defined in exclusive biological, cultural, and historical terms, above all other loyalties, and to create a mobilized national community. ...
nicksomniblog.com/definitions/

a political system in which all power of government is vested in a person or group with no other power to balance and limit the activities of the government. Fascist governments are often closely associated with large corporations and sometimes with extreme nationalism and racist activities. ...
naiadonline.ca/book/01Glossary.htm

a political theory advocating an authoritarian hierarchical government (as opposed to democracy or liberalism)
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Fascism is an authoritarian political ideology that holds the state above all else and seeks to forge a type of national unity, usually based on ethnic, cultural, or racial attributes. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

Fascism is a 1995 book edited by Roger Griffin. It is a reader, in the Oxford Readers series, which assembles the writings of various authors on the topic of fascism.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism (book)

Neo-fascism is the term used to describe a range of movements emerging after the Second World War that display significant elements of fascism, or clerical fascism. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism (United States)

Quote from: "Vichy"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_lobby_in_the_United_States Here's a Wiki on it.
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/print/mear01_.html (http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/print/mear01_.html) An article on the Israel Lobby

Regarding the Israel lobby, can you highlight where it is you found the information that Isreal is the largest lobbying group? The links you posted regarding the Isreal lobby are blanket sites, and to fish out your supporting information would be difficult and time consuming. Here's a direct link on the biggest government spenders:

http://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/top.php?indexType=s (http://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/top.php?indexType=s)

According to this site the US Chamber of Commerce is the biggest government lobbyist. Not to say that they may not have some intereset in Israel / Palestine. I found a link on the US Chamber's international page regarding a conference that US businesses are able to attend in, interestingly enough, PALESTINE. Here's the link to that:

http://www.pic-palestine.ps/ (http://www.pic-palestine.ps/)

There are some large US businesses listed as sponsors of this Palestinian conference, including Cisco Systems, Intel, Coca-cola, and Marriott.

The executive branch, the military and the police have enormous and practically unchecked authority, including the de facto ability of the president to declare war with or without the sanction of congress or anyone else.  The US is a fascist state, it's just not quite as fascistic as Italy - though it does have the most powerful military and most interventionist foreign policy of any nation in the history of mankind.  So it's not that far off.  There's just more money for El Duce to grab, and thus not as much resistance to the grabbing and not as much necessity of internal violent repression.

Quote from: "Vichy"The executive branch, the military and the police have enormous and practically unchecked authority, including the de facto ability of the president to declare war with or without the sanction of congress or anyone else. The US is a fascist state, it's just not quite as fascistic as Italy - though it does have the most powerful military and most interventionist foreign policy of any nation in the history of mankind. So it's not that far off. There's just more money for El Duce to grab, and thus not as much resistance to the grabbing and not as much necessity of internal violent repression.

C'mon - you can say the US is a fascist state till you're blue in the face. But you really can't support it.

To say the military and police have practically unchecked authority is just uninformed. They're held accountible for crimes commited just like everybody else. And all military/police officials are (watch out, this is totally unfascist) ELECTED! My brother works for Jag and is jailing rapists in the Navy all the time.

The president does not have the 'de facto' ability to declare war without the sanction of congress. Last time I checked, congress voted (totally unfascist) to go to war with Iraq. Dumb as the war may be, W couldn't have started it by himself.

To say the US has the most interventionalist foreign policy of any nation in the history of mankind is a blatant exaggeration. Atilla the Hun, Alexander the Great, Roman Conquests, and the British Empire, just to name a few, had way more of an aspiration for world domination than the US ever did.

Prepare for something way anti-fascist: education. Poor people can get student loans and go to college. The government could keep that money paid to universities to feed the war machine. But they don't.

Rejoice! Bush is almost gone. Fascists have dictators, the US has four and six year elections. This might be the most unfascist thing ever!

Millions of non-violent drug sellers and drug-users are locked up to support egregious expansions of state power (and jobs) and put into prisons that are nothing less than concentration camps.
I know that the US is a fascist state because I know what fascism is.  There is no difference between economic control and control, without private property there is no private life.

Quote from: "Vichy"Millions of non-violent drug sellers and drug-users are locked up to support egregious expansions of state power (and jobs) and put into prisons that are nothing less than concentration camps.
I know that the US is a fascist state because I know what fascism is.  There is no difference between economic control and control, without private property there is no private life.

I'm a libertarian when it comes to what you want to do with your own body, so I agree with you that filling prisons with drug-users is wrong. Concentration camps were built for work labor and execution, so I think comparing prisons to concentration camps is a stretch. Mainly because they let you out in no time for minor offenses like selling and using drugs.

It's probably best just to agree to disagree on the fascism issue. I agree that the government is corrupt to a great extent, and use fear of war to grant defense contracts, then skim the fat off the top. They're corrupt and they steal. Some of them hire hookers and do drugs, both which should be legal anyway. They're also way too controlling in every aspect of life. But fascist? Nope. The US is still a democracy with corrupt leadership that the general population puts up with for some reason.

Would you prefer the term 'gulag'?
And concentration camps and gulags were created to get rid of political dissidents and to create political scapegoats.  The fact that they worked was simply a by-product of this process.

Politics itself is corrupt.  There has never been a good government, this is a contradiction in terms.  Extortion rackets may give to charities, but they're still extortion rackets.  The reason people put up with it is because they have thousands of years of authoritarian and religious indoctrination (and the belief in the authority of a non-existent entity of 'the government' is nothing less than religion).

Quote from: "Vichy"Would you prefer the term 'gulag'?
And concentration camps and gulags were created to get rid of political dissidents and to create political scapegoats.  The fact that they worked was simply a by-product of this process.

Politics itself is corrupt.  There has never been a good government, this is a contradiction in terms.  Extortion rackets may give to charities, but they're still extortion rackets.  The reason people put up with it is because they have thousands of years of authoritarian and religious indoctrination (and the belief in the authority of a non-existent entity of 'the government' is nothing less than religion).

In the US, even political dissidents and scapegoats can write books from prison (extremely unfascist AND un-Soviet).

I agree with you that politics as a whole is corrupt. As a fan of linguistics and a communication major, I love Noam Chomsky, who is a well known anarchist.

Communists continued to publish under Mussolini.  The State doesn't bother you because it's not afraid of you.  It focuses its resources on things believed to be more dangerous or profitable, so long as no one listens to you (or does anything about it) they don't give a fuck what you say.  They have billions of dollars and endless hours of propaganda in the form of their control over education and the media, what's some jerkoff with a printer and too much free time going to do?  They've insured that the sheep don't like to read, anyway.