Happy Atheist Forum

jamesatracy's post made me think of a question I've always wanted to ask when I was a Christian, but I was too scared to for some reason... so I thought I'd ask it now (though I don't care much about it anymore)

Assuming for a second that everything in the Bible is true, where did Judas go: heaven or hell? He believed in Jesus (at least I would think so) which is the basis of getting "saved". But I don't know how you got saved back then when Jesus was alive (the first time) cause the whole believing in Him to wash away your sins thing didn't come until He died and rose. But even if all you had to do to go to heaven was believe in Jesus and accept Him into your heart, and assuming Judas did that, wouldn't selling Him out cancel Judas' believing in Him? But then, it was in God's Plan for Judas to betray Jesus so is it really Judas' fault? It just seems kind of wrong to send someone to eternal torture for doing what they were "meant to". The Bible even says (somewhere, can't remember where) that someone had to betray Jesus and God set it up in His Plan. But then again, God's Plan sends tons of people to hell... now I'm rambling.  

I don't know. This has probably already been "answered" but I was just curious what people on here thought.

Oh and just as a random afterthought: I know some people at my church that say "Judas Iscariot!" as a curse when someone would normally say like "Jesus Christ!" or even "holy shit!" I just thought that was funny... they treat him like such a horrible guy. Why don't they also use Lucifer or Satan as a curse?

It depends on what religious school of thought you come from. I was raised in the LCMS, which is completely faith. In the LCMS, Judas believing Jesus was god was an automatic in. Others include works. Judas probably fails in that department.

Quote from: "susangail"jamesatracy's post made me think of a question I've always wanted to ask when I was a Christian, but I was too scared to for some reason... so I thought I'd ask it now (though I don't care much about it anymore)

Assuming for a second that everything in the Bible is true, where did Judas go: heaven or hell? He believed in Jesus (at least I would think so) which is the basis of getting "saved". But I don't know how you got saved back then when Jesus was alive (the first time) cause the whole believing in Him to wash away your sins thing didn't come until He died and rose. But even if all you had to do to go to heaven was believe in Jesus and accept Him into your heart, and assuming Judas did that, wouldn't selling Him out cancel Judas' believing in Him? But then, it was in God's Plan for Judas to betray Jesus so is it really Judas' fault? It just seems kind of wrong to send someone to eternal torture for doing what they were "meant to". The Bible even says (somewhere, can't remember where) that someone had to betray Jesus and God set it up in His Plan. But then again, God's Plan sends tons of people to hell... now I'm rambling.

I don't know. This has probably already been "answered" but I was just curious what people on here thought.

Oh and just as a random afterthought: I know some people at my church that say "Judas Iscariot!" as a curse when someone would normally say like "Jesus Christ!" or even "holy shit!" I just thought that was funny... they treat him like such a horrible guy. Why don't they also use Lucifer or Satan as a curse?

The Baptist reply to that question is Burn Baby Burn! Nobody who had ever experienced the wondrous love of Jesus and then turned his back on him should expect any less than to have his skin flayed and then be raped mercilessly by demons!

The character of Judas is used as a moral tale of those who turn their backs on Jesus after having a 'relationship' with him. He would have to go to Hell based on principle alone. I think whether he went to hell or not was insinuated by the manner in which he died... his intestines exploded! And then there's Mel Gibson's take on it in the movie "The Passion". Judas gets left alone with those creepy demon kids, I assume for all eternity.

ok well how I saw it when I was a christian... Judas was Jesus's favourite student. He must hve been, otherwise why trust him with the difficult tusk of giving him to the romans. It was his plan to die that was and Judas was the one chosen to "hel" him
Judas took on his showlders his "reputation" as well as the world's hate, to do what his teacher trusted him. So I believed that he must have gone not only in heaven, but at the right hand of god
then again, if no, God must have been a real ass for condemning Jusdas to hell, since he knew what he was going to do long before Jesus himself was born.
My opinion

Quote from: "MariaEvri"ok well how I saw it when I was a christian... Judas was Jesus's favourite student. He must hve been, otherwise why trust him with the difficult tusk of giving him to the romans. It was his plan to die that was and Judas was the one chosen to "hel" him
Judas took on his showlders his "reputation" as well as the world's hate, to do what his teacher trusted him. So I believed that he must have gone not only in heaven, but at the right hand of god

I wouldn't necessarily call him Jesus' favorite (wasn't that John?) but I see what you mean. I think people bag on him too much now a days. Judas and Lucifer/Satan, forever misunderstood.

Quote from: "MariaEvri"then again, if no, God must have been a real ass for condemning Jusdas to hell, since he knew what he was going to do long before Jesus himself was born.
My opinion

Exactly what I was trying to say when I started this.

Susan, that's a great question! I will have to ask that to the next Christian I see (or at least meet online).

It might depend on how Judas died. If he hung himself that is considered suicide, which some believe will send you straight to hell. But then again in Acts he seems to just trip and fall - but his guts spill out, which is really weird. Like God stuck his invisible leg out and finished him off for good.

What a fascinating question.  Here's my off-the-cuff reply (while I'm in my own kind of hell--waiting on hold for a Dell customer service rep to pick up the phone)

1.  There is no Hell.  Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm a Christian who doesn't believe in hell.  That's a whole other conversation entirely (but, I'm not alone on this).

2.  Technically, Judas set the crucifixion/resurrection event in motion, so he's partially responsible for salvation.  

3.  Indeed, MariaEvri has a beautiful point.  

I'm going to chew on this question some more (assuming, of course, I ever get off the phone----oh, fuck it, I'm hanging up).

Quote from: "Dickson"What a fascinating question.  Here's my off-the-cuff reply (while I'm in my own kind of hell--waiting on hold for a Dell customer service rep to pick up the phone)

1.  There is no Hell.  Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm a Christian who doesn't believe in hell.  That's a whole other conversation entirely (but, I'm not alone on this).

2.  Technically, Judas set the crucifixion/resurrection event in motion, so he's partially responsible for salvation.  

3.  Indeed, MariaEvri has a beautiful point.  

I'm going to chew on this question some more (assuming, of course, I ever get off the phone----oh, fuck it, I'm hanging up).

Hmm... you should start a topic on your views of hell (or the lack of one rather).
I don't believe in hell either (or any afterlife) but I meant the question as if heaven and hell were real. I like your point on number two.

Hmm... Judas's actions were preordained, therefore he cannot be held responsible for them. It's the old free will question. Without free will one cannot be held responsible. With free will, there cannot be supernatural intervention.

Dickson already touched on where I was going to go with my reply.

Judas was necessary. Without his betrayal, there would have been no crucifixion/resurrection. I doubt that Jesus dying a natural death would have sated Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti's passion for violent bloody death.

If you read the Gospel of Judas, Judas is a secondary agent, and Jesus asks him to set in motion the "betrayal". Based on that non-canonical gospel, Judas was only following God's orders, therefore he's in heaven.

Quote from: "susangail"

Quote from: "Dickson"3.  Indeed, MariaEvri has a beautiful point.  

and yet when I ask people why they burn judas at easter, ince he actually did Gods will, they stare at me and say "you think too much". Go figure

Quote from: "MariaEvri"and yet when I ask people why they burn judas at easter, ince he actually did Gods will, they stare at me and say "you think too much". Go figure

Hang on--people burn Judas at Easter?  Yikes.  I've lived in Mississippi all my life and I've never heard of such.

Quote from: "Dickson"I'm a Christian who doesn't believe in hell.

I for one am curious how that works.

Quote from: "jamesatracy"I for one am curious how that works.

Much the same as most Christians eat shellfish, I would imagine....

There's no such thing as a Christian litteralist. One cannot follow all of the rules and beliefs in the Bible, as many are contradictory. So in picking and choosing what to believe, a Christian can simply dismiss things he or she sees as being TOO unreasonable. "Hell? Pushaw, forget that. I'll believe only in heaven and then the church can't lord that over me." Eternal damnation is a bit of a downer.

I find it's a lot simpler not to believe any of it, but to each their own I suppose.

Quote from: "MariaEvri"

Quote from: "susangail"

Quote from: "Dickson"3.  Indeed, MariaEvri has a beautiful point.  

and yet when I ask people why they burn judas at easter, ince he actually did Gods will, they stare at me and say "you think too much". Go figure

Them: "You think too much."
You: "And that's a bad thing....?"

Okay, but....If a Christian believes in heaven but not hell, then what happens to unbelievers when they die? Do they go to heaven to? What would be the point of converting anybody? Why would Jesus die on the cross if not to save people from hell?

Quote from: "jamesatracy"Okay, but....If a Christian believes in heaven but not hell, then what happens to unbelievers when they die? Do they go to heaven to? What would be the point of converting anybody? Why would Jesus die on the cross if not to save people from hell?

I'm just guessing. Someone who doesn't believe in hell, but is still "Christian" might believe one of four things:
1) They also go to heaven
2) They go to purgatory or some other place
3) They are reincarnated
4) Their "soul" ceases to be

Conversion would make sense for #2-4 as heaven is generally considered, by default, to be the best place ever. Not sure about the Jesus one, though.

Quote from: "jamesatracy"Okay, but....If a Christian believes in heaven but not hell, then what happens to unbelievers when they die? Do they go to heaven to? What would be the point of converting anybody? Why would Jesus die on the cross if not to save people from hell?

Maybe the non-believers cease to exist after they die?
Some Christians try to convert non-believers simply because they care. They want them to have what they consider to be a better life. To some Christians, a life without God is a horrible and empty one, and they hope to save people from that.

The Methodist church I use to attend said that Judas was doing what he was told to do.That he has such faith in Christ that he knew there was a reason behind it.Judas in our church wasn't the bad guy,he was just being a good Christian.You would think that Jesus being who he is would have known if Judas was a traitor.For the Gospel of Judas no one can seem to agree on translation.But Will is right it depends on who you talk to when it comes to Judas.Yet another thing people can't seem to agree on.

Quote from: "afreethinker30"The Methodist church I use to attend said that Judas was doing what he was told to do.That he has such faith in Christ that he knew there was a reason behind it.Judas in our church wasn't the bad guy,he was just being a good Christian.You would think that Jesus being who he is would have known if Judas was a traitor.For the Gospel of Judas no one can seem to agree on translation.But Will is right it depends on who you talk to when it comes to Judas.Yet another thing people can't seem to agree on.

People keep mentioning the Gospel of Judas. There is one? Is it like one of those left out ones? All I know is Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John...

Quote from: "susangail"

Quote from: "afreethinker30"The Methodist church I use to attend said that Judas was doing what he was told to do.That he has such faith in Christ that he knew there was a reason behind it.Judas in our church wasn't the bad guy,he was just being a good Christian.You would think that Jesus being who he is would have known if Judas was a traitor.For the Gospel of Judas no one can seem to agree on translation.But Will is right it depends on who you talk to when it comes to Judas.Yet another thing people can't seem to agree on.

People keep mentioning the Gospel of Judas. There is one? Is it like one of those left out ones? All I know is Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John...

Yes there is I'll post what I can find out it.Oh if anyone can find a working link to the translation would you please post it?
NGC http://www.nationalgeographic.com/lostgospel/      
NGC Photo Gallery http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0605/feature2/gallery1.html
http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/manuscripts/gospel_of_judas/
http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/manuscripts/gospel_of_judas/Parooltrans8-9.htm
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12186080/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Judas

Quote from: "susangail"People keep mentioning the Gospel of Judas. There is one? Is it like one of those left out ones? All I know is Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John...

There are quite a few non-canonical books that were left out based on the decisions of the council of Nicea. The most famous collection is the Nag Hammadi library, also called the Gnostic Gospels.This guy found 12 leather bound codices buried in a clay jar near Nag Hammadi, Egypt in 1945.

Among the texts were the Gospel of Truth, the Gospel of Thomas, and interestingly enough, a heavily modified version of Plato's Republic.

The Gospel of Judas was found in a 4th century Coptic text that was discovered in Beni Masah, Egypt in the 70s. The National Geographic has been heavily involved in its translation.

The entire Nag Hammadi Library is available here (http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl.html) and the Gospel of Judas is available here (http://www.nationalgeographic.com/lostgospel/).

Quote from: "jamesatracy"Okay, but....If a Christian believes in heaven but not hell, then what happens to unbelievers when they die? Do they go to heaven to? What would be the point of converting anybody? Why would Jesus die on the cross if not to save people from hell?

I don't know what happens to nonbelievers when they die because, to me, my faith isn't about some reward at the end of the race.  My relationship with God enriches my life--death isn't so much of a concern for me.  

Jesus' death wasn't necessarily a ticket to a wonderful afterlife.  His life provided a model for all people, whether or not they believe he was an incarnation of God.

QuoteThere is no Hell.  Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm a Christian who doesn't believe in hell.  That's a whole other conversation entirely (but, I'm not alone on this).

Hell is a Biblical concept, taken from certain verses in the Gospels, like the story about Lazarus, specifically. Are you rejecting the canon of scripture, acknowledging that it may be erroneous?

Quote from: "MikeyV"

Quote from: "susangail"People keep mentioning the Gospel of Judas. There is one? Is it like one of those left out ones? All I know is Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John...

There are quite a few non-canonical books that were left out based on the decisions of the council of Nicea. The most famous collection is the Nag Hammadi library, also called the Gnostic Gospels.This guy found 12 leather bound codices buried in a clay jar near Nag Hammadi, Egypt in 1945.

Among the texts were the Gospel of Truth, the Gospel of Thomas, and interestingly enough, a heavily modified version of Plato's Republic.

The Gospel of Judas was found in a 4th century Coptic text that was discovered in Beni Masah, Egypt in the 70s. The National Geographic has been heavily involved in its translation.

The entire Nag Hammadi Library is available here (http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl.html) and the Gospel of Judas is available here (http://www.nationalgeographic.com/lostgospel/).

I can't get that link to work.  Will probley need to reset cookies.Oh joy.

Hmm. The Gnostic site was pretty slow and unresponsive earlier today, but it seems fine now.

I didn't read this, but based on the title I vote hell.

Quote from: "Dickson"

Quote from: "MariaEvri"and yet when I ask people why they burn judas at easter, ince he actually did Gods will, they stare at me and say "you think too much". Go figure

Hang on--people burn Judas at Easter?  Yikes.  I've lived in Mississippi all my life and I've never heard of such.

well its a greek orthodox custom. every saturday night at the church, before the easter sunday, they burn a judas thingy made of straw. THis now turned into some sort of a contest between kinds, which neighbourhood will collect the more wood and have the biggest fire. The few last years the church in my neighbourhood was almost burned because of the huge fire XD

Quote from: "myleviathan"Hell is a Biblical concept, taken from certain verses in the Gospels, like the story about Lazarus, specifically. Are you rejecting the canon of scripture, acknowledging that it may be erroneous?

Easily, scripture can (and does) contain things that aren't true.  I don't worship the Bible:  I worship God.  I view scripture as Cliff's Notes to God:  some good ideas, but some not-so-good ones, too.  Now, I don't dismiss scripture entirely just because I disagree with some of what's in there, just like I don't dismiss Augustine or Nietzsche or Spong just because I don't jive with all their ideas either.  


Sidebar:  I'm barbecuing for the 4th today and trying not to think of the burning Judas we talked about earlier.  

I keep thinking of the kids game telephone.You know where one child whispers something to another,then that one whispers to another.And how at the end you have something different then what you started with.Alot of things are like that religion is one.I'm sure in all religions it started out with one person telling another,so on..Things eventually get mixed up and turned around.

Quote from: "afreethinker30"I keep thinking of the kids game telephone.You know where one child whispers something to another,then that one whispers to another.And how at the end you have something different then what you started with.Alot of things are like that religion is one.I'm sure in all religions it started out with one person telling another,so on..Things eventually get mixed up and turned around.

That's a really good way to put it. Religion is so huge but certain things about it are so childish.

well to put this discussion to rest, I have hard evidence of what happened to Judas! It's in writing, and it's old, so it's got as much credibility as the bible....


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dante_Inferno#Ninth_Circle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dante_Inferno#Ninth_Circle)

"Condemned to the very center of hell for committing the ultimate sin (treachery against God) is Satan, who has three faces, one red, one black, and one a pale yellow, each having a mouth that chews on a prominent traitor. Satan himself is represented as a giant, terrifying beast, weeping tears from his six eyes, which mix with the traitors' blood sickeningly. He is waist deep in ice, and beats his six wings as if trying to escape, but the icy wind that emanates only further ensures his imprisonment (as well as that of the others in the ring). The sinners in the mouths of Satan are Brutus and Cassius in the left and right mouths, respectively, who were involved in the assassination of Julius Caesar (an act which, to Dante, represented the destruction of a unified Italy), and Judas Iscariot (the namesake of this zone) in the central, most vicious mouth, who betrayed Jesus. Judas is being administered the most horrifying torture of the three traitors, his head in the mouth of Lucifer, and his back being forever skinned by the claws of Lucifer. (Canto XXXIV) What is seen here is a perverted trinity. Satan is impotent, ignorant, and evil while God can be attributed as the opposite: all powerful, all knowing, and good."


So yes, Judas is in hell, and he's being chewed on by Satan for eternity! Fun stuff!

*Whew!* thanks for clearing that one up mrwynd!