Happy Atheist Forum

I often here the statement that people who are pro-life and pro-death penalty are hypocrites. This can makes sense especially since these people usually shove it down your throat. But then I turn it around. Are people who are pro-choice and against the death penalty hypocrites?

I personally hate the idea of the death penalty and I don't thinks it's ever really necessary. I also don't like the idea of abortion, but I think in some circumstances it is.... appropriate, for lack of a better word. Such as, if the woman was raped. When discussing these topics, I usually say that, to me, the death penalty is a yes or no issue while abortion is more of a grey area. So, does that make me a hypocrite?

I simply used myself as an example. I'm not really posting this cause I want to check my views and change any hypocrisies I may have.  I just wonder, in general, if a person's views on abortion and the death penalty even relate.

I'd say it's a pretty safe bet that the two share a negative correlation. That is, as disapproval of abortion goes up, disapproval of the death penalty goes down. Of course, I have no statistics to back this up (though I soon might!  :)

Interesting question.  I am pro-choice (I don't think that it's a good idea for a bunch of white old farts (aka the government) to tell a woman what she should do with her body and her unborn child), and I am also pro-death penalty (unless someone can convince me that there is a more effective way of permanently removing a threat from society).  Aborting a fetus and killing a criminal are very different things.

I was chatting with a coworker one day regarding the death penalty (this was a while back, and it had come up in the news - I think when our electric chair was setting people on fire), and the coworker's stance was that the death penalty was too expensive (trials, confinement, appeals, etc.) and that it made more economic sense to keep a murderer in prison for life.  Then I personalized it and asked him what if the victim was his sister or mother.  His response was "then I'd kill him myself" - and knowing him, he was sincere.

If you're on the fence about it, look at it from the outside and the inside - it may help.

I'm pro death penalty. I think it far more convenient to make the problem go away in stead of locking it up and wasting money on it for 30 years.

I'm also pro abortion, euthanasea and the like. Thus, when it comes to matters of "to kill or not to kill," I'm pretty consistent on the "dark side."

There is a saying that anti-abortionists love the fetus and hate the child. Once a child is born and put up for adoption for example, they don't want to have to fund any programs that might help pay for that child's development or any programs that might help single mothers.

In the book FREAKONOMICS, authors Stephen Dubner and Steven Levitt make a connection between legalized abortion and a declining crime rate in the United States around 18 years later.

I'm pro-abortion, though not in all circumstances.  Often, a woman never quite gets rid of the mental scars, so it's a question of balancing possible ill effects.
As for the death penalty, I've no problem with it.  It's arguably kinder than life imprisonment... except that it's hard to undo if a mistake is found to have been made.  That's somehing I worry about more and more as I see convictions being reversed, often years later.

I'm on the fence about the death penalty. I agree that it's the best way to get rid of a major problem, but giving the government the power to legally kill someone is still scary to me. If the convicted is undeniably guilty, then they should be killed. But what if the crimes punishable by death are expanded? What if innocent people are found guilty?

Quote from: "Smarmy Of One"There is a saying that anti-abortionists love the fetus and hate the child. Once a child is born and put up for adoption for example, they don't want to have to fund any programs that might help pay for that child's development or any programs that might help single mothers.

You know what's funny about Christians and adoption? They don't do it! They tell girls they should put their kids up for adoption and then never adopt one themselves. In all my life at church, I knew a total of TWO couples who had adopted, and ONLY because they couldn't have children of their own. This is sickening to me.

Quote from: "myleviathan"

Quote from: "Smarmy Of One"There is a saying that anti-abortionists love the fetus and hate the child. Once a child is born and put up for adoption for example, they don't want to have to fund any programs that might help pay for that child's development or any programs that might help single mothers.

You know what's funny about Christians and adoption? They don't do it! They tell girls they should put their kids up for adoption and then never adopt one themselves. In all my life at church, I knew a total of TWO couples who had adopted, and ONLY because they couldn't have children of their own. This is sickening to me.

And I'll top that one by wondering why these same people adopt children from foreign countries when there are so many children in need of a solid family life here in America. Don't get me wrong, I've nothing against any adoption where the parent is capable of and does provide a better life for the child, for any child. (My own daughter is adopted, but that's a process of law as far as I'm concerned. She was mine the first time I laid eyes on her.) But what's wrong with adopting the older children who might need it?
I know the number of newborn available for adoption has lowered over the years but there's no excuse for any child in America not to have adoptive parents if needed. They shouldn't have to stay under the auspices of Social Services.

I'm pro-choice and against the death penalty.Go figure.I won't start the whole debate on abortion because it's useless and time consuming.If women don't have the option they end up going to back alley doctor to have it done and end up worse off then before.Adoption is a great thing my own father was adopted.But there should be better background checks on those wanting to adopt.But when it comes to strapping someone on a gurney and pumping them full of drugs in some cases yes do it.But there are to many innocent people who have been put to death.Mostly because lawyers don't want to admitt they were wrong or because they didn't have experince.Or you see people who have a upcoming date to be put to death and its a election year.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/

QuoteThe second item in the liberal creed, after self-righteousness, is unaccountability. Liberals have invented whole college majorsâ€" psychology, sociology, women's studiesâ€" to prove that nothing is anybody's fault. No one is fond of taking responsibility for his actions, but consider how much you'd have to hate free will to come up with a political platform that advocates killing unborn babies but not convicted murderers. A callous pragmatist might favor abortion and capital punishment. A devout Christian would sanction neither. But it takes years of therapy to arrive at the liberal view.

-P.J. O'Rourke

P.J. O'Rourke is a complete moron. Psychology is as much of a science as biology or chemistry and has absolutely nothing at all to do with "fault". Psychology is the scientific study of mental processes and behavior.

Quote from: "susangail"I often here the statement that people who are pro-life and pro-death penalty are hypocrites. This can makes sense especially since these people usually shove it down your throat. But then I turn it around. Are people who are pro-choice and against the death penalty hypocrites?

I personally hate the idea of the death penalty and I don't thinks it's ever really necessary. I also don't like the idea of abortion, but I think in some circumstances it is.... appropriate, for lack of a better word. Such as, if the woman was raped. When discussing these topics, I usually say that, to me, the death penalty is a yes or no issue while abortion is more of a grey area. So, does that make me a hypocrite?

I simply used myself as an example. I'm not really posting this cause I want to check my views and change any hypocrisies I may have.  I just wonder, in general, if a person's views on abortion and the death penalty even relate.

I'm working on a religious hierarchy, and at the top is "Homophobic, anti-abortion, pro-death penalty, fundies."
I also don't like "Pro-life" and "pro-choice", because who can honestly say they are against choice. Nobody says "I'm anti-life." I much prefer "pro and anti abortion" because it is more straightforward. I detest sugarcoating. Except when it's strawberries. I am, for the record, pro-abortion, because who am I, some random guy, to say that a women can and can't choose whether or not to have children. Do whatever you want, bang guys, kill babies, do WHATEVER in your personal life, so long as it doesn't interfere with me. Even if it doesn't I'm fine with it. But, susangail I can see the valid point in the anti-abortion argument.

Keep it funky
Keep it peachy.
BUT MOST OF ALL!
keep it mellow.
buh-byz.

I am for abortion AND the death penalty, so its all good in my opinion

this is an interesting question. i don't actually look at it that just because i am pro-choice that it means that i believe killing is necessarily excusable, in the same way that just because i am VERY against the death penalty, doesn't mean that i think that taking a life is always wrong. (for example i am pro-euthanasia if it is properly handled).
basically what it comes down to to me is what makes sense.

abortion makes sense to me. i think that it is something we shouldn't take lightly and certainly shouldn't become an alternative to contraception but i do believe a woman has the right to choose, and a bunch of men (very often mainly men in most governements) have the right to presume that they know what it feels like for a woman to have an unwanted pregnancy. i also think that having thousands of unwanted babies is actually counterproductive to increasing the quality of life for kids. i particularly resent the anti-abortion arguments that come from religion. we are in a dangerous state when we allow irrational unproven beliefs to govern our decisions.

i am against the death penalty, frankly because i find it disgusting. to me it comes down the basic flawed reason that two wrongs make a right. life imprisonment? yes. but to decide kill someone who has committed such a disgusting act themselves, to me sends completely the wrong message. unless i am mistaken the death penalty was eventually banned in the uk after it was revealed that in one particular case where a man had been executed, that he was actually innocent. well there is no going back once you have done it. i think it denigrates a society to have the death penalty, it is barbaric and to me paradoxical that to me the same people who are meant to be the upholders of law telling what is right and wrong are the same people then that sign the papers allowing for another human being to be executed. this to me is a primitive and lazy way of handling crime and something that is shameful for the human race.

so basically i try not to justify those two opinions by saying that i completely believe all life should be left alone nor that we completely have the right to make choices about life and death. to me those issues just aren't that black and white.

Quote from: "Dreamer"i am against the death penalty, frankly because i find it disgusting. to me it comes down the basic flawed reason that two wrongs make a right. life imprisonment? yes. but to decide kill someone who has committed such a disgusting act themselves, to me sends completely the wrong message. unless i am mistaken the death penalty was eventually banned in the uk after it was revealed that in one particular case where a man had been executed, that he was actually innocent. well there is no going back once you have done it. i think it denigrates a society to have the death penalty, it is barbaric and to me paradoxical that to me the same people who are meant to be the upholders of law telling what is right and wrong are the same people then that sign the papers allowing for another human being to be executed. this to me is a primitive and lazy way of handling crime and something that is shameful for the human race.

I can see where you are coming from, and I sympathize with some of your views on the subject, but I still have to disagree as a whole. I'd rather have a person dead than sapping up my tax dollars. We should not give prisoners any luxuries of any sort, and TIME is indeed a luxury. A family close to mine had their daughter raped and murdered. The killer was found and sentenced to death. People that commit such atrocities do not deserve to live. DO you think the likes of Saddam and Bin Laden should be allowed to twiddle their thumbs in a prison for a few decades, while innocent taxpayers pick up the tab?

Most of my life I was, like most Americans, more interested in politics than in science. So I thought I was obligated to pick a side on the abortion issue. Then after college I didn't think about abortion for a while.

During this time I made the switch at some point; my mentality made the switch to a scientific mentality (the difference, as I like to put it, is that scientists say "problem, hypothesis, experiment conclusion," whereas everyone else is content to stop at "hypothesis"). When I finally got back to the abortion issue, I realized what the problem was: the embryo in the first week of gestation is definitely not a baby, while the fetus in the last week is. Every week in between is torturously, excruciatingly, nebulously gradual. There simply is no magical day when that tiny amoeba

Humans don't deal well with gray areas like this. Categorizing reality got us very, very far in this world, and so we want to do it with everything, especially human life. We really, really, need to know when sentient life begins.

So early-term abortion is nothing, but late-term abortion really does make me nervous. And the time in the middle? Gray area.