Happy Atheist Forum

About a week ago, me and a friend had a little discussion about God and other supernatural topics. She's one of the few that knows I don't believe in God (and she remained my friend when I was a border-line fundie). She's not religious at all, so she's often thought of as an atheist, though she hates this. I think she doesn't like that term because of everything that comes with it. She's made it clear for the passed few years to people that she believes in God. I always sort of wondered what sort of god she believes it, cause she doesn't practice any sort of worship.  So we were talking and this is how the conversation sort of went, at least how I remember it. (I'm calling her Jane)

Jane: So you don't believe in God. So you don't think He exists?

Me: For me, He doesn't, but it doesn't really matter. I don't believe in any sort of god anyway.
Me: You always say you believe in God. What do you mean by that? Or like what kinda of god do you believe in?

Jane: It's not really the sort of god most people believe in. And it's not one that you like pray to or any of that shit. I'm not really sure what "it" is. I just think that there has to be something out there. Some sort of reason that we're here. We can't just be here randomly or by chance. I just can't believe that.

Me: Yeah, yeah I guess I can understand that. I personally just don't really think about why we're here and what not.

Jane: Ha ha yeah.
Jane: So what do you think happens after you die?

Me: I don't think anything happens. I don't really believe in a soul that separates from the body so I don't see how anything could happen.

Jane: That just freaks me out. The idea of just 'nothing'.

Me: Yeah the 'nothingness' freaks me out too. But when you think about it, it only scares us when we're alive. When we're dead, well we're dead. I try not to think about it if it bothers me cause there's no sense in wasting time worrying about it.
Me: Didn't you say once that you believe in reincarnation?

Jane: Well, I don't believe in it, I just like the idea of it. I'd like to think it's true.

Me: But there's no way of knowing.

Jane: Yeah, exactly. I just like the idea better than 'nothingness' though I know it's probably a load of shit.

Me: Yeah, I get what you mean. It would be pretty sweet though...dude, I must have been a hippie in a former life!

Jane: Ha ha yeah! Treehugger!

(and then we go on to joke about what we were in a former life and what we will be in a next life)

This is just a little snid-bit of an hour-long conversation. I got the impression from my friend that she believes in a god because it sort of gives her hope. Believing in reincarnation makes death not so freaky and believing in a god that created everything gives some sort of reason to life. I know this POV isn't exactly breaking news, but it was kind of an eye-opener to me, a person who has never personally known someone who believes in a god simply out of hope. So it just makes me wonder how many people are religious for this reason. IMO, that sort of religion is "safe". It's personal, and has nothing to do with anyone but the individual. I'm just sort of rambling now (and I don't really remember what my original motive was for posting this) Well, I guess I just wanted to share this so make of this what you will  

I know some people like this. They typically don't really care either way, but they have a strong feeling that there's something out there. What are your friend 'Jane's' parents like? Are they religious, or evangelicals, or nothing at all?

Quote from: "myleviathan"I know some people like this. They typically don't really care either way, but they have a strong feeling that there's something out there. What are your friend 'Jane's' parents like? Are they religious, or evangelicals, or nothing at all?

I know her mom was raised Catholic but isn't anymore. I'm not quite sure about her dad, but I don't think he's religious. Her parents divorced a few years ago. I've talked to her about it many times and it's one of the reasons she doesn't believe in the Christian God.

I know a lot of people like Jane. Like her, for them it's the idea that everything is (ultimately) meaningless that scares the hell out of them. They can't accept the fact that if one earthquake in a very unfortunate spot had occurred at a crucial moment in our past, we might look very, very different or, indeed, not even exist. They assume that what is is what ought to be.

Dawkins, I think, said something along the following lines, which I tend to agree with: the fact that we accept the "nothingness" that is after life is exactly what makes us appreciate life more than others. It's exactly what makes us moral beings. We know that, hey, man, this is all we got! Better make the best of it while we can.

I haven't had a good philosophical conversation like that in quite some time. I think I'm having withdraw symptoms.

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"Dawkins, I think, said something along the following lines, which I tend to agree with: the fact that we accept the "nothingness" that is after life is exactly what makes us appreciate life more than others. It's exactly what makes us moral beings. We know that, hey, man, this is all we got! Better make the best of it while we can.

I haven't had a good philosophical conversation like that in quite some time. I think I'm having withdraw symptoms.

I think we talked about this in this conversation as well. I mentioned somewhere that the 'nothingness' gives this life meaning in a sense. I like this. I think it gives me more hope than reincarnation could.

Philosophical conversations are the real chicken soup for the soul  

Hmmm...

Jane sounds like an "Agnostic Theist" - happy to have another member of the non-club!

I enjoy conversations like this one, but they have been few and far between of late.

I think I have more of a problem with the "Gnostic" crowd (on both sides).
I'm fine if you believe there is, or is not, a God... just don't tell me you "know" or try to sell me on the idea.

She sounds like a great friend to have these chats with ;-)

Ah well,
JoeActor

Jane:I just think that there has to be something out there. Some sort of reason that we're here. We can't just be here randomly or by chance.

Asmodean:...Why can we not be here randomly or by chance?

Quote from: "joeactor"I think I have more of a problem with the "Gnostic" crowd (on both sides).
I'm fine if you believe there is, or is not, a God... just don't tell me you "know" or try to sell me on the idea.

Yeah I know what you mean. I can't stand it when people say they "know" there is or isn't a god because you really can't "know" unless by gut feeling or faith which isn't really knowing. I just tell people to believe (or disbelieve) what they want, but don't push it on me.

Quote from: "Asmodean"Jane:I just think that there has to be something out there. Some sort of reason that we're here. We can't just be here randomly or by chance.

Asmodean:...Why can we not be here randomly or by chance?

I don't think she meant that we can't (though I know that is what she said). I think what she meant was that she doesn't want to believe that we're here randomly or by chance. As I said, the conversation was a lot longer than what I posted.

QuoteI don't think she meant that we can't (though I know that is what she said). I think what she meant was that she doesn't want to believe that we're here randomly or by chance. As I said, the conversation was a lot longer than what I posted.

I believe that all the sunglasses I've lost over the years have found their way to poor people who live in sunny places. Ahhh...that feels better.    

That is the best scenario, so it must be true.

Quote from: "jcm"

QuoteI don't think she meant that we can't (though I know that is what she said). I think what she meant was that she doesn't want to believe that we're here randomly or by chance. As I said, the conversation was a lot longer than what I posted.

I believe that all the sunglasses I've lost over the years have found their way to poor people who live in sunny places. Ahhh...that feels better.    

That is the best scenario, so it must be true.

That's an interesting way to look at it.

Quote from: "jcm"

QuoteI don't think she meant that we can't (though I know that is what she said). I think what she meant was that she doesn't want to believe that we're here randomly or by chance. As I said, the conversation was a lot longer than what I posted.

I believe that all the sunglasses I've lost over the years have found their way to poor people who live in sunny places. Ahhh...that feels better.  :shock: You mean my beautiful sunglasses are now in posession of some junkie in Spain?! That's like... Sunglass-Hell... I haves to rescue them!  

Quote from: "susangail"

Quote from: "joeactor"I think I have more of a problem with the "Gnostic" crowd (on both sides).
I'm fine if you believe there is, or is not, a God... just don't tell me you "know" or try to sell me on the idea.

Yeah I know what you mean. I can't stand it when people say they "know" there is or isn't a god because you really can't "know" unless by gut feeling or faith which isn't really knowing. I just tell people to believe (or disbelieve) what they want, but don't push it on me.

Sorry, but I know there isn't a god. Just like I know there are no unicorns. No faith required.  

Quote from: "Smarmy Of One"

Quote from: "susangail"

Quote from: "joeactor"I think I have more of a problem with the "Gnostic" crowd (on both sides).
I'm fine if you believe there is, or is not, a God... just don't tell me you "know" or try to sell me on the idea.

Yeah I know what you mean. I can't stand it when people say they "know" there is or isn't a god because you really can't "know" unless by gut feeling or faith which isn't really knowing. I just tell people to believe (or disbelieve) what they want, but don't push it on me.

Sorry, but I know there isn't a god. Just like I know there are no unicorns. No faith required.  

You're entitled to think how you will. But I have to ask, do you consider your knowledge that there isn't a god more solid than those who say they know there is one? The way I see it, it's the same concept (maybe the wrong word to use), just an opposite opinion or idea.

As much as I accept my knowledge that there are no unicorns is more valid than the notion that unicorns exist.

But, I don't care if others decide to believe in unicorns. They are perfectly free to do so.

* I'd just like to add that anyone is free to believe unicorns, so long as they don't push to have unicorn biology taught in schools.  

Quote from: "Smarmy Of One"As much as I accept my knowledge that there are no unicorns is more valid than the notion that unicorns exist.

But, I don't care if others decide to believe in unicorns. They are perfectly free to do so.

* I'd just like to add that anyone is free to believe unicorns, so long as they don't push to have unicorn biology taught in schools.  

I like your attitude about it. Most "I know there is no god" atheists add "and you should too!!" and I think that's what truly annoys me.
 
Ha ha and I love that last line.

She hopes that all the suffering and evil in this Universe aren't the result of blind forces and human ignorance, but rather from the detailed machinations of an omnipotent sadist?  That sort of 'hope' doesn't sit very well with me, and it's rather contrary to the hope that things could ever be better than a life of fear and genocide.
Fantasy and whim-wishing only make things worse, and the contention that this religious crazyness can help someone is ridiculous, like saying that ignoring traffic can make crossing the street better.  You might not be worried about getting hit, but you're still going to.

Quote from: "Smarmy Of One"* I'd just like to add that anyone is free to believe unicorns, so long as they don't push to have unicorn biology taught in schools.  

That's the thing. Belief should not be taught as fact. In my opinion, belief should not be taught at all, but if someone absolutely has to teach it, they should present it as a belief, nothing more. I think that's what they call "Calling a spade a spade."

Saying "I know there is a God." is a logical fallacy because conclusion requires proof and proof denies faith. Thus, God vanishes in a cloud of his own logic. However, saying "I know there is no God" is also a logical fallacy as an affirmation of a universal negative.

Neither position is supported by logic as I understand it.

Quote from: "rick"Saying "I know there is a God." is a logical fallacy because conclusion requires proof and proof denies faith. Thus, God vanishes in a cloud of his own logic. However, saying "I know there is no God" is also a logical fallacy as an affirmation of a universal negative.

Neither position is supported by logic as I understand it.

I'm afraid that I have to disagree with you. Saying "there IS a god" and saying "there is NOT a god" is not the same thing. The only way those two statements could have the same weight is if the person wasn't sure they believed or not.

As an atheist, (similarly to what I stated in a previous post) it is same as saying that there are two sides to the whole santa argument.  

Quote from: "rick"Saying "I know there is a God." is a logical fallacy because conclusion requires proof and proof denies faith. Thus, God vanishes in a cloud of his own logic. However, saying "I know there is no God" is also a logical fallacy as an affirmation of a universal negative.

Neither position is supported by logic as I understand it.

I see what you're saying, Rick. Faith and proof don't mix. If there's proof for something, faith is no longer required. Proof expells faith. With faith, however, a conclusion doesn't require proof. The proof step gets skipped entirely. So you're right, it's not logical. The conclusion is made before any proof is demonstrated. In my opinion, faith is more than a logical fallacy, it's a moral fallacy as well.

I hope that I find my way into a threesome with Jessica Alba and Natalie Portman, therefore I believe it. Isn't that called denial?

Quote from: "Willravel"I hope that I find my way into a threesome with Jessica Alba and Natalie Portman, therefore I believe it. Isn't that called denial?

I'm pretty sure that's called something else entirely.