Happy Atheist Forum

On Tuesdays this academic quarter at my college I have one and a half hours between my morning seminar and my afternoon class. I usually go down to the student center to have lunch but the past two weeks I decided instead to sit down at a table in a quieter part of campus to get some reading done. Well, either there must be something about this particular table at this particular time or maybe it is just me, but for two weeks in a row now I have been approached by students wishing to “speak to me” (despite the fact that I am clearly busy studying!) - only on Tuesdays and only while sitting at that particular table.

On the first occasion, a boy and a girl, clearly students, walked up to me and wanted to talk to me. I was in the middle of reading (a book on Daoism, nonetheless), so I asked them what this was all about. They told me that they were from the Lighthouse Bible Study group and wanted to ask me a few questions. Well, I couldn’t pass this one up so I agreed and asked them to sit down! The boy asked me, somewhat awkwardly, what I thought about God. I told him that I am atheist and don’t believe in any god or gods. This probably got him a bit excited because he suddenly began to open up a bit and talked on and on about how he was a non-believer too at one point before he ‘found’ Jesus and was saved. Of course, it turned his life around, too. He gave me the usual spiel about how accepting Jesus washes away one’s sins and grants eternal life or something like that.

There are, of course, many ways a skeptic and an atheist can respond in a situation like this. I asked him how exactly that works. Was it the sacrifice that did the trick? If so, then what did Jesus sacrifice? His life? But he was resurrected and taken to heaven. That’s doesn’t sound like a sacrifice to me. Was it shedding his blood? I asked him if the trick would have worked had the Romans used lethal injection to execute Jesus rather than the painful and bloody method of crucifixion. Additionally, I asked him if Jesus willingly went through all of this then why does he cry out at the end (according to a couple of the gospels), “My God, My God, Why have you forsaken me?” To these questions he gave me a long and incoherent response, but I suppose it came down to Jesus being the “lamb of god” and (magically) taking on all of the sins of humanity in his act (as if sin is something that can be moved around like an ordinary object!).

Then he told me how Jesus had fulfilled Old Testament prophecies of the Messiah. I pointed out that Jews, whose holy book happens to be the Old Testament, do not agree with that statement. The girl replied, “Well, yeah, I suppose if they did they would be Christians.” Of course! Anyway, I tried to explain how Jesus did not fulfill ancient Jewish messianic expectations. One of these is that the Messiah would be a descendant of David. Matthew and Luke both give genealogies of Jesus that supposedly trace his lineage all the way back to King David himself. The problem with these genealogies, of course, is that they are completely bogus. Neither Matthew nor Luke can even agree on who Joseph’s father was!

Quote“Jesus was about thirty years old when he began his work. He was the son (as was thought) of Joseph son of Heli, son of Matthat, son of Levi, …” and so on (Luke 3:23-24).

…and Matthan the father of Jacob, and Jacob the father of Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born, who is called the Messiah” (Matthew 1:15-16).

What is amazing to me is that some Christians think that one of these genealogies is traced through Mary and the other through Joseph. So I wasn’t surprised when the girl made this claim. It makes me wonder if she has ever looked at these genealogies closely or is just repeating what she has heard elsewhere. All that you have to do is look at them. Joseph is given two different fathers and Mary is not included in either lineage - only mentioned in Matthew as Joseph’s wife. I think that she got a bit flustered when I refused to accept that pitiful explanation.

Another of these messianic expectations is that the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem, the city of David (i.e., David’s birthplace). Neither Mark nor John mention where Jesus was born. Rather, Mark simply states that Jesus was from Nazareth, which is in an entirely different region than Bethlehem. That was a problem for Matthew and Luke, so they each invented utterly different birth narratives to “show” how Jesus was born in Bethlehem yet hailed from Nazareth.

In Matthew, Jesus is born in Bethlehem because that is where his family lives. After he is a few years old the magi come looking for the King of the Jews. This frightens King Herod. The magi find Jesus at his home (not in a stable) in Bethlehem but do not return to report his whereabouts to Herod. So, Herod orders all male babies under the age of two killed in and around Bethlehem. Jesus and his family flee to Egypt, where they live until Herod dies. As they are heading home to Bethlehem they realize that Herod’s son is now ruling over Judah and might still want Jesus dead, so instead of returning home they decide to settle in the town of Nazareth in Galilee.

In Luke, Joseph and Mary are living in Nazareth (not Bethlehem) before Jesus is born. A census is announced from Rome that supposedly requires individuals to return to their ancestral town, so Joseph travels with his pregnant wife to Bethlehem. When they arrive there is no room in the inn so they stay in the stable, where Mary gives birth to Jesus. Shepherds arrive and praise the Lord. After eight days Jesus is circumcised and then they travel to the temple in Jerusalem for a purification rite. Once that is complete, they return home to Nazareth.

So, it should be clear that these stories are completely bogus as well. Anyway, I had to leave my two new friends at this point but I think that, at the very least, I left them with something to think about.

On the second occasion, one week later, once again a boy and a girl, clearly students, approached me with the intention of “talking” to me. This time, however, they were part of a evangelical Christian group on campus and the girl wanted to read to me a small pamphlet that she was holding. Please, sit down! The pamphlet turned out to be some kind of “evangelizing” device that is supposed to help the individual being targeted (me) turn him or herself over to Christ. It also relieves the student evangelical from memorizing pesky verses or thinking on his or her own. She started reading the pamphlet to me, which began with four “spiritual laws” that explained how we are all sinners under God, that Jesus died for our sins, etc, etc. I interrupted her on several occasions to ask questions which seemed to frustrate her. Apparently she expected me to keep largely quiet so that she could simply read her pamphlet.

At the end of the pamphlet it asks me whether I am currently living a “Christ-centered” life where Jesus is on the throne and my life serves him, or whether I am currently living a “self-centered” life where I place myself on the throne and my life serves myself. Well, I told her I wasn’t a Christian but at the same time I took some offense to the idea that that implies that I must be self-centered. I told her that I didn’t agree with that and her response was - she was sorry but those were the only two options in the pamphlet! So choose! Ugh. Well, I wasn’t taking the bait and she wasn’t too happy about it. I asked her some more questions, such as whether or not she believed that a decent person deserves to go to hell simply because that person doesn’t believe that God performed a magic trick 2,000 years ago in ancient Palestine that nobody witnessed. In other words, for not thinking the right thoughts. She said that she understood that it may sound strange but nevertheless it is in fact what she believes. Indeed! I asked her why she believes that Jesus was actually resurrected from the dead and her reply was “faith.” I explained why that was not a good reason to justify any belief. The girl was visibly a bit frustrated and clearly did not really know how to handle even simple questions like those. She was unpracticed, which probably explains why she needed the pamphlet. The boy, oddly, remained silent the entire time.

Well, I plan on sitting at that same table again next Tuesday for sure!

I am, however, a bit taken aback by how active and mobilized Christian students on my college campus actually are. Why aren’t atheists walking around and “talking” to students? That admittedly may sound a bit strange, but at the same time I feel that, on my campus at least, there is decidedly not a large enough free thought, skeptical, or atheist presence and we are not doing enough to engage with the student body. While myself and a friend of mine do try and engage Christians and preachers on campus (http://www.anatheist.net/2008/05/preaching-the-gospel-of-fire-brimstone/)when we can (and we have even hosted a debate), it certainly does not feel like enough.

Are you currently in college? What are atheists doing on your campus to engage with the student community and counter the Christian presence? I am really curious to know.

Most of us at my university just get drunk and make fun of the evangelicals. That turns into a philosophical discussion. That usually turns into the cultural validity and worth of LOLcats. That usually turns into everyone screaming, 'CAN I HAS MOAR BEER?' And then we move to the next bar.

In all seriousness, atheists on my campus don't do enough. We're not organized. Probably because we don't have the same zeal as the Christians do. Hell, even the campus Hillel is more outreaching. There are growing factions on campuses, though. Check it out: the Godless Freshman (http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=library&page=downey_27_5).

Quote from: "jamesatracy"Why aren’t atheists walking around and “talking” to students?

Interesting question. Answering only for my own actions, I'm too busy being a productive member of society to bug people, really. And more atheists are reactive, not unlike yourself. I won't start a conversation about religion, but I will end one with factual, verifiable evidence, logic and reason. As such, the best thing we can do is what you're doing. When the emperor comes calling, remind him that he's not wearing any clothes. If they engage you, engage them right back. They're not used to it yet.

Or do what I do: try to convert them to Islam.

I'll be headed back to Berkeley before too long, but I don't expect many evangelicals evangelizing.

nice read. Please keep sitting at the same table. Id like to reada nd learn so that if someone comes preaching to me Id know what to say hehehe

MariaEvri,

The friend that I mentioned at the end of my post is working on a 'guide' so to speak at engaging Christians (and possibly Muslims) in impromptu conversational debate. From what he has told me so far I think that it is going to be great and extremely useful.

curiosityandthecat,

Maybe we don't have the same zeal. Or maybe it is just hard, as I have heard elsewhere, to organize a group of people around not believing in something. Nevertheless, I feel like we should make our presence better known on campuses that have a lot of active religious groups. Even today, walking to lunch, I was invited by a Catholic student group to attend a Catholic mass. The Catholics, however, seem to be far less in your face and argumentative.

QuoteWhat is amazing to me is that some Christians think that one of these genealogies is traced through Mary and the other through Joseph. So I wasn’t surprised when the girl made this claim. It makes me wonder if she has ever looked at these genealogies closely or is just repeating what she has heard elsewhere. All that you have to do is look at them. Joseph is given two different fathers and Mary is not included in either lineage - only mentioned in Matthew as Joseph’s wife. I think that she got a bit flustered when I refused to accept that pitiful explanation.

Both lineages in the Gospels talk about Joseph's link back to David. However God's spirit sperm implanted Mary's seed. So we shouldn't even be concerned with Joseph's lineage. It's more Mary's lineage that matters, since she was the human parent. Give them that one and their heads will spin. They'll be flipping back and forth, going "what? WHAT?"

QuoteAre you currently in college? What are atheists doing on your campus to engage with the student community and counter the Christian presence? I am really curious to know.

I currently go to college, but there are no atheist groups. I've considered starting one but haven't really taken it too seriously. I don't necessarily feel the need to try to counterbalance the Christian presense with an atheist one. I would agree though that people should be aware in some sense of our our presence.

Maybe there's a neon sign over your head that says  "I'M AN ATHEIST, CHANGE MY MIND", but it's invisible except on Tuesdays at that table.

I'm not in college, but my high school has 3 or 4 Christian based clubs and would have a major uproar if someone tried to  organize anything atheist, whether or not it was a club. But I do understand that high school is a lot different than college.

Well, I talk to people about religion when they want to, but I leave it at that. I don't want to use my time to organize and make a first move.

Quote from: "jamesatracy"I am, however, a bit taken aback by how active and mobilized Christian students on my college campus actually are. Why aren’t atheists walking around and “talking” to students? That admittedly may sound a bit strange, but at the same time I feel that, on my campus at least, there is decidedly not a large enough free thought, skeptical, or atheist presence and we are not doing enough to engage with the student body.

Maybe we need a pamphlet. :P

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bostonblueyes.com%2Fblog%2Fatheist-pamphlets.jpg&hash=2438241336db95e28ea1d05a67d9ed6a616a454f)

That cartoon hits the nail directly on the head. Love it.

I love the cartoon Curio!! It reminds me of a joke I saw on YouTube that goes something like:

"Knock knock."
"Who's there?"
"The atheist."
"The atheist who?"
"-wait no it's not, cause we don't go door to door!"

Once upon a time, in a galaxy far, far way, I was actually in college.  I was a member of the Baptist Student Union at the time, but not out actually evangelizing at all.  However, the university I attended did have a 'free speech' area where people could go and talk about whatever was on their mind.  Most of the time this turned out to be something akin to someone carrying a bible and reading aloud from it or preaching at people as they walked by.  I rarely saw anyone discussing anything that was not somehow tied to religion.  I suppose this is because many in the religious community were of the opinion that secular humanism/atheism was taught from the bully pulpit of the classroom lecterns.   Anyway, it seems like you have a good thing going there at your special table.  Have fun!

Quote from: "Kona"Once upon a time, in a galaxy far, far way, I was actually in college. I was a member of the Baptist Student Union at the time, but not out actually evangelizing at all.

I used to be a campus evangelizer extraordinaire. I had a Bible study every week and I would go around talking to people and inviting them to come. I would also share what is called the "Bridge". We didn't use pamphlets because we thought they were too contrived, so we would doodle our own on a blank piece of paper. It laid out God's plan for all mankind right there, with stick figures. It showed God on one side and a man (or woman) on the other. Jesus was supposed to be the "bridge". So we would draw a cross in the middle uniting God and man. I would also help people move into their dorms on move-in day to show my super Jesus love. Glory!

Well, today is Tuesday again. Unfortunately I was not able to sit down at that same table. Instead, I was sitting on the main drag at the center of campus.

Did I expect to be approached again?

No.

Did I?

Yep.

This time it was Campus Crusaders for Christ! Sadly I only had 5 minutes to spare at that point - not enough time to get into a real conversation.

Nevertheless, I am now convinced that I must look like somebody who needs to be saved. At least on Tuesdays....

On this same note, but MANY grades lower...

A few weeks ago, my son (who is 8 and in 3rd grade) told me that while at recess that day, his best friend, whom we'll call A, told him that he can't be friends with my son any more because he's an atheist.  A told my son that he can prove that god exists and that he's done so to a few other boys who were sitting with them at the time.  (The other two boys come from religious families so I don't know how A. proved god to them since they already believe in god.)

Needless to say, I was saddened for my son... he didn't sound upset or anything, but I figured i'd talk to A's mom, whom I know to be a Christian, but one with a good science and math background... we've talked extensively on many religious topics and she's as close to my way of thinking as one can be and still be a believer.   :crazy:   She told him to not discuss it at our house because it's not appropriate and to my knowledge, he didn't say anything.

She called me back after talking to A.  Here's what we pieced together from both stories:

The discussion started at morning recess and continued during lunch, lunch recess AND afternoon recess.  Someone had written "Jesus Loves You" with the playground chalk on the blacktop.  One boy said to my son that Jesus loves him.  My son said, "That's all a lie.  I'm an atheist and there is no god."  (Both my son and A. agree that he said this.)  This is when A. supposedly said that B. is an atheist and he can't play with him until he accepts Jesus as his savior.  A. denied to his mom that he said this, but she's sure B's version of events is correct, knowing her son.  The other two boys stayed out of the conversation.  And it was one of the JEWISH kids who told B. that Jesus loves him.  Go figure.

After saying he could save my son, A. also told him that atheists are evil people who steal, murder and cause all of the problems in the world, and he needs to believe in god and Jesus if he wants to go to heaven.  My son told him there is no heaven or hell to go to.

Phew.  Apparently, there were no harsh words said and the two boys have been behaving as if none of this even happened.  B. is the class clown and everyone loves him, two girls have crushes on him (saw THAT in action today), so if this had any impact on how kids see him, it isn't evident.

Both of us moms told A. and B. that they are not to discuss religion or god at school... it has no place there and can only hurt people.  I did mention it to the teacher, who said, "I don't blame him for what he said.  When it comes up around me away from school, I just say I don't want to live forever."  I KNEW I liked her.  LOL!

He can't say that there is no god or the kid is a liar for saying there is a god or jesus and not expect the brainwashed to respond.  I told him I was proud of him for standing up for what he <thinks he> believes in but it's best to just not talk about it at school.

So... it happened, he was evangelized, it was his "best" friend, and he weathered it nicely.  He still insists he's an atheist... I'm proud and bothered at the same time.  But as long as he keeps it to himself from now on, we'll be okay.

Wow, third grade? I was first evangelized by one of my best friends in fourth grade. He was also somewhat of a clown and the whole thing blew over rather quickly.

From the looks of it, it probably helped quite a bit that A's mother and their teacher were so understanding!

Quote from: "jamesatracy"Wow, third grade? I was first evangelized by one of my best friends in fourth grade. He was also somewhat of a clown and the whole thing blew over rather quickly.

From the looks of it, it probably helped quite a bit that A's mother and their teacher were so understanding!

Yes, A's mom is great... they live just down the street and I KNOW she was mortified that A. was saying things like that.  We're both very adamant about keeping religion out of the school.  I think we approach it from different perspectives, but the end result is that it doesn't belong there.

And the teacher... she has never, in 3 years, alluded to any type of belief, non- or otherwise, so I was surprised when she said that.  And she said it with a conspiratorial wink!  She knows I'm an atheist, so I'm pretty sure I didn't imagine it.   ;)

After I was outed by a teacher in grade school I was evangelized on regular basis at school.  After my traumatic experience, it was a bit frightening.  I feared the children and adults who evangelized me in school might suddenly burst into violence if I said the wrong thing.

Quote from: "rlrose328"Yes, A's mom is great... they live just down the street and I KNOW she was mortified that A. was saying things like that.

I wonder where A got the idea that he had to evangelize and had to shun those who did not accept Jesus.  It sounds like his mom did not encourage that behavior, but he picked it up from somewhere.  Perhaps other kids at his church, other church members, or maybe something on TV.

It's like when kids say curse words, you wonder where they heard it.

Quote from: "crocofish"I wonder where A got the idea that he had to evangelize and had to shun those who did not accept Jesus.  It sounds like his mom did not encourage that behavior, but he picked it up from somewhere.  Perhaps other kids at his church, other church members, or maybe something on TV.

It's like when kids say curse words, you wonder where they heard it.

Oh we KNOW where he got it.  Dad is a bit of an evangelical.  Mom would love nothing more than to escape... they basically have a crappy relationship which they've managed somehow to keep hidden from the kids.  But A spends quite a bit of time with Dad and after Mom told Dad about our beliefs, I have no doubt that he encouraged A to somehow save us, starting with Brendan.

Dad has never been anything but kind and outgoing toward me.  We've talked about kids, movies, his job and everything and never once has he tried to evangelize me.  But I can imagine A hears it all from Dad at home.

It's great to see how well you and your son handled that, having your friends try to "save" you can quickly end friendships if you're not careful. Glad to see it all worked out ok.

Quote from: "rlrose328"Oh we KNOW where he got it.  Dad is a bit of an evangelical.  Mom would love nothing more than to escape... they basically have a crappy relationship which they've managed somehow to keep hidden from the kids.

That reminds me of a story that my mom told me just a few months ago.  A neighbor and friend of my mom lives in a separate house from his ex-wife in the same neighborhood, so I asked what the story was.  My mom told me that the wife lives in the original house, and she became born-again and sent letters out to all the neighbors proclaiming her born-again status, and also wrote that she could no longer stay married to her husband because he is not religious.  What kind of nutcase sends letters out to all the neighbors like that?    The husband bought a house next to my mom.  I met him and he was a really nice guy.

I guess I have gotten a little off-topic.

Wow!  I mean, 3rd grade.  How does anyone really know anything about the world?  Hell, I didn't wake up until I was in my 30's!  So pardon my incredulity at believing someone at such a young age has such a command of knowledge beyond parroting what they have heard.  Will you tell me next that your child has read Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle?

I had read On The Origin Of The Species along with many other books on science by that age so I wouldn't be surprised if other children in that age group have figured out a thing or two.  When I asked my parents a question, we'd find a book together about the subject.  I'm sure Rlrose328 does the same.  I don't think that's unusual for a child raised in a freethinking home.

Also, by that age, if properly taught, most children can distinguish between fantasy and reality.  How many eight year olds actually think Santa Claus, unicorns, or fairies are real?    

It annoys me that people dismiss the intelligence and reasoning capacity of children.  Children aren't little stupid, unreasoning things.  Their biggest weakness is their excessive trust.  As long as that trust isn't betrayed by answering their questions with fantasy or lies, children can reason quite well.

Quote from: "Kylyssa"Also, by that age, if properly taught, most children can distinguish between fantasy and reality.  How many eight year olds actually think Santa Claus, unicorns, or fairies are real?

I think the key phrase is "properly taught".  If kids are taught to critically think about the world around them, and if there are good adult role models, older kids should be able to reason for themselves about what is real and not real.  

I don't know any statistics on how many eight year olds believe in whatever, but I certainly know some adults that believe in fairies and angels.  Some friends of mine that I thought were atheist turned out to be more "new age", and they had an angels group where they channeled angels or something like that.  The new age people are usually pleasant to be around, but some of their beliefs make me question how mature they are.

Kylyssa, I would say that your experience is uncommon and well out of the fat part of the bell curve when considering most children's educational experience in the U.S. (to your benefit).  It is sad that most children do not live in such an environment at home.  Luckily, I had a shelf full of encyclopedias and National Geographic  to browse through when I was bored on those hot summer days growing up in a Texas suburb and a father that took every opportunity to take us to the local art/science museums.  (I didn't read them cover-to-cover, but some factoids paid off years later when Trivial Pursuit came out.)    :-)

No offense was taken.

I'm aware I was an odd kid - I still am, actually.  Actually at around third grade I had a particular fascination for Desmond Morris after reading my Dad's copy of The Naked Ape and read everything of his I could get my hands on.