Happy Atheist Forum

I will not lie in my opinion that I am upset with the choice you have made to forsake God, but I whole-heartedly respect your free-will and therefore respect entirely your right to your opinion, allow my personal view of sadness in your decision to bias your view of my words, because I am biased equally, for me to hide my opinion would be hypocritical and lying, and religion in these and past times has been such a brewery of hypocrisy, corruption, deception, self-service, and hidden bias in the cloak of all-goodness with nothing wrong in their ways. Such a brood of vipers, the most evil in this world comes in the guise of righteousness. I am not above you, you are not below me, we occupy this earth at the same level, and your reasoning in your opinion is completely understood by me, because I myself at one time had forsaken God. I was in a pit of sorrow and I pulled myself out without the help of God, I became my own master, such comfort in this, such power in this, no more hidden secrets, no more undefined walls.

But then, then I failed myself, but I overcame and was better from it! Then the world lashed at me, and I overcame it and sneered at those who wanted me to fail. And time went on, and I was the person I wanted to be, I was of reason and logic. And I looked around me and I would pity those who put their trust and hope into some invisible force when they could be trusting in themselves, and I was my own master. People would look up to me because of my reason and logic and control over my emotions and then I reached a strange point. I reached a point where I couldn’t completely explain my ability. I am a musician, a filmmaker, a writer, a hand to paper artist, a philosopher, a scientist, I am all of these things, but I reached a point of contemplation where I realized that I was given the ability to learn all of these things from outside. All of my abilities did not come from me; I would be a liar if I took credit for the environment, the books, and the teachers that gave me the material that through my perception I turned into ability. I did not invent the guitar or the movie camera. You will say the names of the humans that made these things, but they arrived at their discoveries in the same manner I arrived at my abilities. Darwin made his discoveries of evolution by studying the animals of the Galapagos, Darwin did not invent evolution. I have great logic and reason, but from where is my model of logic and reason derived. I am a person who to my greatest pain denies ignorance, and looking back on my original forsakenness of God, I realized I decided out of personal negativities, I did not come to my decision from my self-proclaimed reason and logic but from selfishness, I was being hypocritical in this moment.

So I turn to science, to the perfection of human, to the strait edges that geometry provide, and in my newly realized thought process I noticed an amazing flaw in science. How science would describe in human language an event, give specific quantity to non-quantified space, and when something disagrees then it is re-evaluated and further perfected. But how limiting is this, to create description, yes the undefined is defined but is it then owned? A male and female come together, seamen reaches the egg, and cells mingle into a child. It is described beautifully by science but something irked me to no end, the process is complete without man’s intervention. There was a proverbial blow to my gut, and I took a new look at science= description… description… description.
Yes, I know how the seed sprouts and feeds from light and becomes a tree providing oxygen from carbon dioxide, but I cannot craft a seed. Even if I could create my own tree, I am in denial unless I realize that I am an imitator. I may even be able to construct a better tree, but there will always be that first tree to guide my judgment. I always have to rely on sunshine if I expect my tree to grow, and the sun can be defined by me, but even my creation of a sun comes off ever jealous in the design of the original by which was my teacher. I did not give myself my hands, even if their form and function evolved, I do not govern the intelligence behind evolutions decisions. Evolution a series of random congregation, HA! The bird is too stupid in brain size to know that the only way to survive is by elongating its beak to quench its thirst from the blood of the animals on the small island. My lack of acceptance of a Master Creator was derived in selfishness and ignorance. I don’t want to even consider that I would be held accountable for my mistakes and my inner thoughts of negativity, but the universe is perfect balance, and everything exists because it is meant to be. To write off my emotions as brain electrical charges would mean my pride in my intelligence was simply an electrical connection from my penis to my mouth. And because I was so willing to hurt others to stand up for my self-mastery, surely my convictions were more than a longing for self-released chemicals, because those chemicals were put in the right place at the right moments and somehow out of my control I was known to feed so viciously on their sweet reactions.

I am not an empty shell, and even in my highest moments of showcasing my abilities, I was always describing an already existing form, and my logic would leave me with a description of processes with unexplained origins, I turned myself into a machine. No. I cannot be a machine because no one else is me; no one else is exactly in the position behind my eyes I am, no one knows my thought processes except myself. I returned to the beginning of the discovery of myself and realized my longing to reason, to describe, would isolate me, and make me easier to be lead, a professional would make claims and I would assume he was correct because of his reason. I would give others authority over me because I believed them in their reason. I had become quantified, but I refuse to be this, because I had found a layer deeper and refuse to ignore it because of my walls of reason, no.

God made me into what I am, science did not make me, science has no way except to clone or imitate my creation, all creation. Science cannot remove the unbalance I throw my moral balance into, Jesus Christ’s maximum sacrifice can and does forgive me every time I make a mistake, I am imperfect, and Jesus saves me time and time again. If I die and there is nothing, at least I died trying to gain eternal life and spread love and happiness along the way, what greater goal? And at least to have a positive goal in death, rather than nothing. There is nothing you can do that cannot be forgiven, you simply have to be genuine in your apology, and knowingly stop yourself in future circumstance, through Jesus Christ my uncontrolled judgment in death is solidified, such comfort in such an unknown abyss, if you see it as delusion then so be it, it is a delusion of true invincibility, to those who know it as truth, it is true invincibility, because my spirit continues eternally. Explain your sadness and happiness to me, I believe it to be the response of your spirit to your circumstance, I do not mentally decide to be sad. If everything is randomness, it is incredible randomness guided by an intelligent source, to think otherwise is to feed ignorance and to support the limits of man-made logical description, they almost had me in their pocket, but God made himself apparent to me personally, not all of us are so lucky. I said in my mind that I knew he could turn a green liquid to red if He wanted to, then He did it that moment before my eyes, He proved to me that day that science is governed by Him. I was searching for God without knowing it, and because I longed for Him, because I made the decision to challenge logic and its obvious boundaries, God made Himself apparent to me because it was Him I was seeking. I am no longer limited by what is defined! I can continue my pursuit of knowledge un-afflicted! I cannot be controlled or influenced because I only take heed from my direct Creator, death brings no fear, fear is made-up, negativity is a choice that you convince yourself is necessity, other ways besides God’s ways bring misery, but you have God given free-will and you can believe whatever you want, these are simply my own opinions in why I am disappointed in your atheistic decisions.

QuoteTo write off my emotions as brain electrical charges would mean my pride in my intelligence was simply an electrical connection from my penis to my mouth.

 

I'm so sorry.

I really tried to read your posting.

But as I read I could feel my intelligence dropping, and my self-preservation instict kicked in.

Please don't blame yourself.

It's not you, really.

It's me.

I'm just smarter than that.

Equally Condescending,
JoeActor

Quote from: "mattreed"I reached a point where I couldn’t completely explain my ability. I am a musician, a filmmaker, a writer, a hand to paper artist, a philosopher, a scientist, I am all of these things, but I reached a point of contemplation where I realized that I was given the ability to learn all of these things from outside.

Zeus?

Quote from: "mattreed"So I turn to science, to the perfection of human, to the strait edges that geometry provide, and in my newly realized thought process I noticed an amazing flaw in science. How science would describe in human language an event, give specific quantity to non-quantified space, and when something disagrees then it is re-evaluated and further perfected. But how limiting is this, to create description, yes the undefined is defined but is it then owned? A male and female come together, seamen reaches the egg, and cells mingle into a child. It is described beautifully by science but something irked me to no end, the process is complete without man’s intervention. There was a proverbial blow to my gut, and I took a new look at science= description… description… description.

This is a bit odd. You're "irked" by science because it's so scientific? You should try philosophy if you're interested in the meaning behind the fact, but so far as fact are concerned science is where it's at.

Quote from: "mattreed"Yes, I know how the seed sprouts and feeds from light and becomes a tree providing oxygen from carbon dioxide, but I cannot craft a seed. Even if I could create my own tree, I am in denial unless I realize that I am an imitator. I may even be able to construct a better tree, but there will always be that first tree to guide my judgment. I always have to rely on sunshine if I expect my tree to grow, and the sun can be defined by me, but even my creation of a sun comes off ever jealous in the design of the original by which was my teacher. I did not give myself my hands, even if their form and function evolved, I do not govern the intelligence behind evolutions decisions. Evolution a series of random congregation, HA!

Evolution is not random, Matt. Genetic variation has an element of chance, but natural selection is not random in the slightest. The survival and reproductive success of an species is directly related to the ways its inherited traits work in the context of its environment. It's a system of selection which occurs naturally.

Quote from: "mattreed"The bird is too stupid in brain size to know that the only way to survive is by elongating its beak to quench its thirst from the blood of the animals on the small island. My lack of acceptance of a Master Creator was derived in selfishness and ignorance. I don’t want to even consider that I would be held accountable for my mistakes and my inner thoughts of negativity, but the universe is perfect balance, and everything exists because it is meant to be. To write off my emotions as brain electrical charges would mean my pride in my intelligence was simply an electrical connection from my penis to my mouth. And because I was so willing to hurt others to stand up for my self-mastery, surely my convictions were more than a longing for self-released chemicals, because those chemicals were put in the right place at the right moments and somehow out of my control I was known to feed so viciously on their sweet reactions.

I really hope you can elaborate on this brain-penis connection. Do you really think pride comes from your penis? Still, you do win the award for most original sentence on the forum. Possibly the world.

Quote from: "mattreed"I am not an empty shell, and even in my highest moments of showcasing my abilities, I was always describing an already existing form, and my logic would leave me with a description of processes with unexplained origins, I turned myself into a machine. No. I cannot be a machine because no one else is me; no one else is exactly in the position behind my eyes I am, no one knows my thought processes except myself. I returned to the beginning of the discovery of myself and realized my longing to reason, to describe, would isolate me, and make me easier to be lead, a professional would make claims and I would assume he was correct because of his reason. I would give others authority over me because I believed them in their reason. I had become quantified, but I refuse to be this, because I had found a layer deeper and refuse to ignore it because of my walls of reason, no.

Considering yourself a machine is simply a metaphor from a perspective. We are biological machines, I suppose. Still, in many senses we have traits that are not attributed to machines like creativity and imagination, intuition and the ability to learn, and emotions. Each of these is explainable with science, of course.

Quote from: "mattreed"God made me into what I am, science did not make me, science has no way except to clone or imitate my creation, all creation.

God and science can't be equated. I doubt anyone worships science as a sentient, supernatural being. It's a field of study, and therefore cannot "make" anything. It can simply explain the process by which you wee made. If you'd like, I can explain that process for you now from start to finish.

Quote from: "mattreed"Science cannot remove the unbalance I throw my moral balance into, Jesus Christ’s maximum sacrifice can and does forgive me every time I make a mistake, I am imperfect, and Jesus saves me time and time again. If I die and there is nothing, at least I died trying to gain eternal life and spread love and happiness along the way, what greater goal? And at least to have a positive goal in death, rather than nothing. There is nothing you can do that cannot be forgiven, you simply have to be genuine in your apology, and knowingly stop yourself in future circumstance, through Jesus Christ my uncontrolled judgment in death is solidified, such comfort in such an unknown abyss, if you see it as delusion then so be it, it is a delusion of true invincibility, to those who know it as truth, it is true invincibility, because my spirit continues eternally. Explain your sadness and happiness to me, I believe it to be the response of your spirit to your circumstance, I do not mentally decide to be sad. If everything is randomness, it is incredible randomness guided by an intelligent source, to think otherwise is to feed ignorance and to support the limits of man-made logical description, they almost had me in their pocket, but God made himself apparent to me personally, not all of us are so lucky. I said in my mind that I knew he could turn a green liquid to red if He wanted to, then He did it that moment before my eyes, He proved to me that day that science is governed by Him. I was searching for God without knowing it, and because I longed for Him, because I made the decision to challenge logic and its obvious boundaries, God made Himself apparent to me because it was Him I was seeking. I am no longer limited by what is defined! I can continue my pursuit of knowledge un-afflicted! I cannot be controlled or influenced because I only take heed from my direct Creator, death brings no fear, fear is made-up, negativity is a choice that you convince yourself is necessity, other ways besides God’s ways bring misery, but you have God given free-will and you can believe whatever you want, these are simply my own opinions in why I am disappointed in your atheistic decisions.

The greatest sacrifice, and the most heart breaking, is the loss of objectivity, logic, and reason. It's not being tortured for a day.

Science is about studying the world around us so that we may gain a better understanding of it.....how did you not realize that initially?  Through gaining knowledge of our surrounding environment we are able to do good things such as finding cures for diseases (and these cures often have to be manufactured since they do not occur naturally).  Of course Darwin didn't create evolution...no thinking person believes that he did, he was just the first to explain what was happening in a way that actually made sense and could be tested and verified.  We all stand on the shoulders of others in order to further our knowledge and subsequently that of those around us...that's just being smart.  Why start out at square one when you were placed on square 90 by those who came before you?  Just because we utilize knowledge of the past does not mean there is necessarily anything magical providing that knowledge...it's all about baby steps to progress whether you are talking about knowledge or evolution.  Basically, in not so few words, you just said that you don't get how anything got here in the first place.  Which is an understandable view, yet not knowing does not mean there is a deity which place it there.  That line of thinking is called God of Gaps and is a rather well known logical fallacy.

As for believing every claim made by professionals...that's just as stupid as believing every claim made by religion.  Professionals write about how they reached their views so that we may read for ourselves (or even test on our own in some cases) to decide if that claim is valid or not.  It is often best to not accepts claims which cannot be verified by others; especially if that claim is important enough to affect world views.  We do ourselves a disservice when we do not care enough to investigate claims deeply enough that we not only know the meaning of the claim but can also explain how various people arrived at that conclusion.

Claiming that God provided you proof by turning green liquid in to red just for you is rather selfish when you think about all those who truly do need a miracle yet have their prayers go unanswered....all of us here are more fortunate than most people in the world since we have both the free time and means to simply access a computer and get on the internet.  If your god does exist and is going to be selective about what prayers it does answer...you'd think it would be more concerned about things such as curing babies with AIDS or cancer than turning some guy's liquid a different color.  Worthwhile miracles not being claimed to occur as  often as silly miracles is not necessarily proof that a god doesn't exist...but it certainly would say a lot about God's character if it does exist.

Quote from: "joeactor"I'm just smarter than that.

JoeActor

Joe, I would like you to elaborate on your intelligence, if you are willing too.

Your reasoning would be of great value to me is you are as smart as you claim to be, my rebuttals to your ironclad convictions is nothing you can't handle Joe .

Right now, your response supports the arrogant stereotype that people place on atheists, and I'm sure you don't want that, or perhaps you do.

Quote from: "Willravel"Zeus?
My wisdom and my abilities are not derived from myself, those whom I look up too who were great thinkers have the ability to think, by natural forces, I do not give myself the ability to do these things, I motivate myself to pursue a natural progression....[clipped] ....The greatest sacrifice, and the most heart breaking, is the loss of objectivity, logic, and reason. It's not being tortured for a day.

But my friend, objectivity remains in strength, logic and reason reign. Jesus never gave into a single negativity, yet he was tortured and killed. Symbolically, pure goodness was stamped out because of mankind's hang-ups, and Jesus allowed it and forgave those whom killed him, that's where the sacrifice comes into play, to be killed falsely and forgive those who kill you.

Quote from: "mattreed"Right now, your response supports the arrogant stereotype that people place on atheists, and I'm sure you don't want that, or perhaps you do.

If you look a bit more closely, you'll see that I am not an atheist.

It seems you came here with something to prove.   Perhaps you are just confused or curious.

What is the real reason you came to this forum?

Curious, but only slightly so,
JoeActor

Quote from: "joeactor"If you look a bit more closely, you'll see that I am not an atheist.

Forgive my assumption Joe, I am guilty of assumption that there are only Atheists on this forum.

I am here to challenge my faith, that if it is as strong as I believe it to be, that I can accept the opinion of the opposing belief and still have strong faith.

Again, I am sorry in my assumption, I am on a path of humility, and even that subtle action shows I still have a long way to travel.

Quote from: "mattreed"But my friend, objectivity remains in strength, logic and reason reign.

Yes, but I suspect that we're getting our definitions from different sources on each of those terms. Would it be reasonable for me to believe in Zeus?

Quote from: "mattreed"Jesus never gave into a single negativity, yet he was tortured and killed.

This is also a matter of perspective. Perhaps you're familiar with Matt. 21:12-17:

Quote from: "(NKJ)"Then Jesus went into the temple of God[a] and drove out all those who bought and sold in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who sold doves. 13 And He said to them, “It is written, ‘My house shall be called a house of prayer,’ but you have made it a ‘den of thieves.’”

...or John 2:15

Quote from: "(NKJ)"And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables.

I've never claimed to be perfect, but I've never hurt or whipped anyone in my while life no matter what they were doing at my dad's place. From my perspective, this behavior is quite destructive and negative. And ask yourself this: what of Jesus' behavior could have been omitted?

Quote from: "mattreed"Symbolically, pure goodness was stamped out because of mankind's hang-ups, and Jesus allowed it and forgave those whom killed him, that's where the sacrifice comes into play, to be killed falsely and forgive those who kill you.

Someone's going to kill me?

Quote from: "mattreed"I am here to challenge my faith, that if it is as strong as I believe it to be, that I can accept the opinion of the opposing belief and still have strong faith.

Ah, thank you for your candor.

If that is the reason you are here, bravo.

Knowledge and Belief are two separate realms.  Your initial post seems to confuse the two.

Knowledge can come from outside (books, teachers, etc), or from inside (thinking, deduction, etc).  It is based on fact, observation, logic, and deductive reasoning.

Belief (or faith) can only come from within.  Others can tell you about their beliefs, but your belief can only come from inside yourself.  It does not need to have any basis in fact or even be reasonable.

Therefore, to challange your faith, you are really challenging your self.

For a challange to have any meaning, there must be risk.  You must be willing to lose the very thing you are challenging.

Faith and sense of self can be very closely tied, so before we embark... Are you prepared to lose your faith?

If so, then the first question (which Will alluded to) is:

Why are you a Christian?
(as opposed to any other religion)

Sunday Smackdown,
JoeActor

Quote from: "mattreed"If I die and there is nothing, at least I died trying to gain eternal life and spread love and happiness along the way, what greater goal? And at least to have a positive goal in death, rather than nothing.

One of the things that atheists seem to have a good grasp on is the concept that we have only one go-around on this planet, and that there is no life after death.  I would urge you in your quest for understanding, Matt, to consider this as a possibility.  When theists state that there is no harm in believing in god and spending their lives in a quest for eternal life is a worthwhile endeavor, they fail to realize that there is so much else to learn in such little time.  Biology, chemistry, geology, and physics are but a few of the many areas of science that can help us gain a better understanding of the way that the universe works.  You will not learn more about the universe in a church (and I spent a good part of my life in church - time that I will regrettably never get back), and any scientific eye that you have will be colored by the idea that what you are observing was created.  This reminds me of an encounter with a coworker when I explained to her how a rainbow forms.  After a moment of looking puzzled, she said to me that she would rather just know that the rainbow was god's creation and be done with it.  I would rather know how it works.  I personally  find the lifelong journey of understanding the basic forces of the universe (with an objective eye unclouded by the confusion and dissonance that the belief in god creates) as a meaningful and satisfying pursuit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_re ... traditions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religions_and_spiritual_traditions)

Hey Matt did you check out any of these other religions before making your finally decision about god? Or did you make it easy on yourself and pick a religion that was closest to home?

Great questions Will and Joe!

Quote from: "jcm"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religions_and_spiritual_traditions

Hey Matt did you check out any of these other religions before making your finally decision about god? Or did you make it easy on yourself and pick a religion that was closest to home?

Great questions Will and Joe!

Thanks JCM (good wiki link too ;-)

Now we just gotta see if Matt comes back.

Maybe the test is done?
JoeActor

Quote from: "Willravel"Yes, but I suspect that we're getting our definitions from different sources on each of those terms. Would it be reasonable for me to believe in Zeus?

It would be completely reasonable for you to believe in Zeus if you had convictions to do so. My view on objectivity was to objectify things, I think the definition you meant was to view without bias, I admit I am biased, but not to the point where I would impose on anyone else's beliefs, I wanted to bring up some of my views and test their validity for I feel strongly in them. My logic is scientific and spiritual, it combines creationism and evolution. My reasoning is based in scientific fact, mainstream and insane science, and then elaborated on by life experiences I've had and internal emotional battles.

Quote from: "Willravel"This is also a matter of perspective. Perhaps you're familiar with Matt. 21:12-17:

Quote from: "(NKJ)"Then Jesus went into the temple of God[a] and drove out all those who bought and sold in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who sold doves. 13 And He said to them, “It is written, ‘My house shall be called a house of prayer,’ but you have made it a ‘den of thieves.’”

...or John 2:15

Quote from: "(NKJ)"And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables.

Quote from: "Willravel"I've never claimed to be perfect, but I've never hurt or whipped anyone in my while life no matter what they were doing at my dad's place. From my perspective, this behavior is quite destructive and negative. And ask yourself this: what of Jesus' behavior could have been omitted?

I feel Jesus did the right thing, being angry is not a sin, what the people were doing in the holy place was a sin, he didn't physically hurt anyone, he strongly disagreed with them and showed it, personally I see it justifiable. Even with things omitted, I believe Jesus Christ was an amazing man, even if he never existed which many believe, I feel his overall example is to show people how to forgive those who act against you, because hatred breeds hatred, but love defeats hatred. I don't think Jesus had any other choice but to make a strong impression on people he viewed were dishonoring his father, if he just stood around and preached to them they wouldn't move.

Quote from: "mattreed"Symbolically, pure goodness was stamped out because of mankind's hang-ups, and Jesus allowed it and forgave those whom killed him, that's where the sacrifice comes into play, to be killed falsely and forgive those who kill you.

Someone's going to kill me?[/quote]
I just mean that figuratively, it came out strange. Mostly I feel that people who act against you should be loved rather than revenged, even in the most difficult situations. I still get angry and act on my anger when people push me far enough, mostly its so that people don't regard me as a pushover because I'm very willing to love them, but I feel you need to let people know when they've wronged you before you forgive them.

Quote from: "joeactor"Are you prepared to lose your faith?

If so, then the first question (which Will alluded to) is:

Why are you a Christian?
(as opposed to any other religion)

Sunday Smackdown,
JoeActor

Yes Joe, I am willing to put my faith at risk. I would be prepared to lose my faith if it was my honest opinion. I am a Christian because I believe that Jesus Christ was a great example of a good man, and he claimed to be a close son of God which is something I aspire to be sometime in the realm beyond the third dimension. I feel that God has provided me with everything I've ever had, I used to not believe this, but since then, I've come to the conclusion that everything that exists is a materialization of thought, things like the make-up of the atom, how particles can transform into waves, also having personally witnessed paranormal activity, how amazing light is, how incredible in design nature is. I feel that man does a great job of describing these things, but I don't need man's proof to believe 100% that a single God exists, because I feel strongly in the positive character of Jesus Christ, and am willing to believe what he says is truth.

Matt you did not answer the question posed.

Why do you not believe the story of Dionysus -- son of Greek god Zeus, which was also born Dec. 25th from a virgin mother?

What makes the story of Jesus more creditable than any other story of virgin births and magic tricks?

Quote from: "jcm"Matt you did not answer the question posed.

Why do you not get the same inspiration from the story of Dionysus -- son of Greek god Zeus, which was also born Dec. 25th from a virgin mother?

What makes the story of Jesus more creditable than any other story of virgin births and magic tricks?

I agree.  Why choose one story over any other?
That is the real question.

If you're starting with the assumption that Jesus was real, you may want to reconsider.  Take a look at the lack of any historical evidence for the man known as "Jesus" (outside of the bible, of course).  Here's a good place to start:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus)

It's interesting to note that there is much more evidence outside the bible for John the Baptist than for Jesus.  Odd, don't you think?

Mithras anyone?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithras (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithras)

Man <-- ?created? --> God(s)
JoeActor

Quote from: "Evolved"

Quote from: "mattreed"If I die and there is nothing, at least I died trying to gain eternal life and spread love and happiness along the way, what greater goal? And at least to have a positive goal in death, rather than nothing.

One of the things that atheists seem to have a good grasp on is the concept that we have only one go-around on this planet, and that there is no life after death.  I would urge you in your quest for understanding, Matt, to consider this as a possibility.  When theists state that there is no harm in believing in god and spending their lives in a quest for eternal life is a worthwhile endeavor, they fail to realize that there is so much else to learn in such little time.  Biology, chemistry, geology, and physics are but a few of the many areas of science that can help us gain a better understanding of the way that the universe works.  You will not learn more about the universe in a church (and I spent a good part of my life in church - time that I will regrettably never get back), and any scientific eye that you have will be colored by the idea that what you are observing was created.  This reminds me of an encounter with a coworker when I explained to her how a rainbow forms.  After a moment of looking puzzled, she said to me that she would rather just know that the rainbow was god's creation and be done with it.  I would rather know how it works.  I personally  find the lifelong journey of understanding the basic forces of the universe (with an objective eye unclouded by the confusion and dissonance that the belief in god creates) as a meaningful and satisfying pursuit.

I agree that there is only one go around on this planet in this form, but there is life after death, personally I think that no life after death is more unreasonable than life after death. I see the universe as a manifestation of perfect balance, and that in physical death, you achieve the opposite eternal life. Spending your life to gain eternal life is unnecessary, it's a choice, to obsess over it is kind of defeating the purpose of life in the first place, to experience and grow, I have a major problem with the hypocrisies that my fellow Christians exhibit. I love biology, chemistry, botany, the geological records have astounding information, physics are great fun, I'm in a constant battle to defy them, I made a magnetic vortex motor that can overcome its own friction, I'm going to use it as a model for how magnetic vortexes and electrical vortexes when in equilibrium can actually attain anti-gravity, fun stuff! I believe that all of that stuff is designed by God, the working matter of the universe, I believe is a crafted living design, and we can describe it and study it and understand the rainbow, but we can only imitate the process of the rainbow, we cannot create the process itself. I had a horrible experience in a Catholic church and Catholic school, they only wanted me to be subservient and sad at myself, since then I've realized 90% of religion is corrupted by human selfishness. The greatest evils hide in the cloak of goodness, spirituality and my relationship with God is a personal matter, I don't want to expect someone to do it for me, because then they get on a power trip. I say you conquer the confusion in another way than denying it, it's still there. When it comes down to it, believing in nothing at all is just as extreme as believing in everything, and believing in a middle ground is impossible, and personally I think that God's existence makes perfect sense.

Quote from: "jcm"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religions_and_spiritual_traditions

Hey Matt did you check out any of these other religions before making your finally decision about god? Or did you make it easy on yourself and pick a religion that was closest to home?

Great questions Will and Joe!

Yes, I considered many other religions, the ideas of self-enlightenment and multiple Gods don't really ring my bell, because of the focus on the self, and if there are multiple God's that leads to too much confusion on which should be praised higher or lower. I personally believe in making myself a benefit to others rather than to myself, because when I share my abilities and work for others I spread happiness to them and receive some happiness in return, so it spreads rather than remains my own. This is what Jesus taught, and I personally see a lot of good in this, and I trust Jesus, so I believe that his view of a single God is true, it makes more sense to me that a single source would be the Creator and Designer of the universe, and that religions that pray to multiple Gods are praising spiritual beings in a higher dimension that us, but are not praising the actual single source of all.

Quote from: "jcm"Matt you did not answer the question posed.

Why do you not believe the story of Dionysus -- son of Greek god Zeus, which was also born Dec. 25th from a virgin mother?

What makes the story of Jesus more creditable than any other story of virgin births and magic tricks?

I feel that the others were great messengers of God as well, but none were kept as well track of as Jesus Christ. Because of the information available on Jesus, I choose to follow his teachings because of how comprehensively they were recorded. I also believe that of all the messengers sent by God, that Jesus Christ was on a higher dimensional plane than the other messengers, and was able to have more of an impact because of how close to God he actually was, the others were very close to God as well, but I believe Jesus was extremely close to God. And because he was so dear to God, that he would be the messenger and sacrifice to end all messengers and sacrifices.

QuoteI feel strongly in the positive character of Jesus Christ, and am willing to believe what he says is truth.... and he claimed to be a close son of God...

Just because of the positive character of Jesus, and that he claimed to be a close son of God? You say you have experienced paranormal activity, but I doubt it was a sit down chat with Jesus. None of us know anything about Jesus except what was taught by our preachers, sunday school teachers, parents, Christian friends, etc. So you're really not believing or trusting in Jesus as much as you are trusting other Christians in your life. Not that these are bad people, but they are people. They are handing you what was handed to them, and you will likely hand it to your children. So you believe what they say as truth, not Jesus. Jesus is entirely out of the picture! His kingdom could propagate itself on gossip and hearsay for the next 10,000 years. People will become martyrs, happily, based on that hearsay. The only reason I mention martyrdom is I often hear in the defense of Christianity that people would not have been willing to die for their faith so early on in the development of the Christian church had they not had first hand experience with miracles and the like. Don't believe this! People will believe anything that anyone says with enough authority. Even to the point of death. Just ask the Jesus living in Florida that has his followers tattoo 666 on their wrists to prove that evil has no power. No joke.

And you can argue that it's not just people who have propagated the faith, but also the Word of God through scripture. And we could go round and round arguing the authenticity of scripture. But the plain fact is that the Trinity is not here to argue for itself, and it never will be. Men wrote the book, not Jesus, and have handed it down through the generations to other men. Jesus is still out of the picture. And you trust those men and their interpretations. There's still no believing anything Jesus said, because he's not come out of the fourth dimension to say anything at all. Scripture is hearsay.

You could also argue that you have a relationship with Jesus, but even a relationship with Jesus is an imaginary one. A relationship consists of two way communication, maybe meeting from time to time, sharing a meal, watching a movie, you know. There is none of that in a relationship with Jesus. It's all one way communication in prayer, from you to him. And he's supposed to 'talk back' in scripture, or in a sermon, or through a circumstance that just can't be chance. He leaves it to others to talk for him. He's still not speaking for himself. It's still all hearsay.

QuoteI've come to the conclusion that everything that exists is a materialization of thought

This is backwards. Thought exists as materialization of elements. Your brain is made of some of the same elements that compose all matter in the universe. You can only think because of the electrochemical processes that occur in your brain. Matter isn't a result of thought, thought is a result of a specific composition of matter.

Quotehow incredible in design nature is

I definitely agree with you that nature is incredible. But it's a hell of a jump from feeling a sense of nature's wonder to maintaining a relationship with Jesus. Don't you think you may have jumped to conclusions without a creator who speaks for himself?

You now understand that evolution isn't random, right? I hope I explained it well enough.

Quote from: "myleviathan"

QuoteI feel strongly in the positive character of Jesus Christ, and am willing to believe what he says is truth.... and he claimed to be a close son of God...

Just because of the positive character of Jesus, and that he claimed to be a close son of God? You say you have experienced paranormal activity, but I doubt it was a sit down chat with Jesus. None of us know anything about Jesus except what was taught by our preachers, sunday school teachers, parents, Christian friends, etc. So you're really not believing or trusting in Jesus as much as you are trusting other Christians in your life. Not that these are bad people, but they are people. They are handing you what was handed to them, and you will likely hand it to your children. So you believe what they say as truth, not Jesus. Jesus is entirely out of the picture! His kingdom could propagate itself on gossip and hearsay for the next 10,000 years. People will become martyrs, happily, based on that hearsay. The only reason I mention martyrdom is I often hear in the defense of Christianity that people would not have been willing to die for their faith so early on in the development of the Christian church had they not had first hand experience with miracles and the like. Don't believe this! People will believe anything that anyone says with enough authority. Even to the point of death. Just ask the Jesus living in Florida that has his followers tattoo 666 on their wrists to prove that evil has no power. No joke.

And you can argue that it's not just people who have propagated the faith, but also the Word of God through scripture. And we could go round and round arguing the authenticity of scripture. But the plain fact is that the Trinity is not here to argue for itself, and it never will be. Men wrote the book, not Jesus, and have handed it down through the generations to other men. Jesus is still out of the picture. And you trust those men and their interpretations. There's still no believing anything Jesus said, because he's not come out of the fourth dimension to say anything at all. Scripture is hearsay.

You could also argue that you have a relationship with Jesus, but even a relationship with Jesus is an imaginary one. A relationship consists of two way communication, maybe meeting from time to time, sharing a meal, watching a movie, you know. There is none of that in a relationship with Jesus. It's all one way communication in prayer, from you to him. And he's supposed to 'talk back' in scripture, or in a sermon, or through a circumstance that just can't be chance. He leaves it to others to talk for him. He's still not speaking for himself. It's still all hearsay.

I agree with you on what people have done with religion, I don't include myself in religion, I believe there is enough in the Bible for me to create my own beliefs on what is morally correct and I build my own spirituality with Jesus Christ as an example. I can tell when people are attempting to deceive me for their own gain, as many religions do. The most important part is for me to have a healthy connection with my spirit and to not discount its creation and its effects on myself and my body. I haven't been sick for 2 years, I feel this is because I am conscious of my spiritual balance as well as my physical balance. It's all about balance, and I feel to believe in nothing is unbalance. I have trouble typing these things because I see how my opinions are being viewed as an infringement on your free-will, but I will type anyway. I believe more in God than ever, and nothing here is nothing I haven't already heard from other Atheists, none of it disproves God just as much as how what I say doesn't prove God, it's totally a personal thing and I am sorry for attempting to impose on you.

QuoteI've come to the conclusion that everything that exists is a materialization of thought

This is backwards. Thought exists as materialization of elements. Your brain is made of some of the same elements that compose all matter in the universe. You can only think because of the electrochemical processes that occur in your brain. Matter isn't a result of thought, thought is a result of a specific composition of matter.[/quote]
In this dimension, yes. In the dimensions above, we are a materialization of their thoughts. I cannot prove this, but science has proven the existence of multiple dimensions, and because atoms are made of 99.9999% empty space, it seems plausible to me that everything is made up of 99.9999% empty space.

Quotehow incredible in design nature is

I definitely agree with you that nature is incredible. But it's a hell of a jump from feeling a sense of nature's wonder to maintaining a relationship with Jesus. Don't you think you may have jumped to conclusions without a creator who speaks for himself?[/quote]
I feel Jesus, the many parts of Jesus that have remained intact enough for me to get a personal truth from, because Jesus in the Bible agrees with many of my own convictions, that God has spoken to me through the parts of the Bible that have most of the truth intact, I am perfectly capable of discerning man's tamperings, and the truth I end up with is invaluable to me, because it made me feel better than ever, and that eventually, negativity will be impossible because of my convictions.

Quote from: "Willravel"You now understand that evolution isn't random, right? I hope I explained it well enough.

I have always believed this, this is why I think it's designed.

Quote from: "mattreed"I have always believed this, this is why I think it's designed.

What about it seems artificial?

Quote from: "Willravel"What about it seems artificial?

If you've always lived made out of plastic in a plastic world, you'd never know flesh or wooden structures. Nothing seems artificial about it at all, we have no way, in this form, to understand it's materialization, we can describe the materialization beautifully.

Quote from: "mattreed"If you've always lived made out of plastic in a plastic world, you'd never know flesh or wooden structures. Nothing seems artificial about it at all, we have no way, in this form, to understand it's materialization, we can describe the materialization beautifully.

I don't think I was clear. I apologize. What do you see in the natural world that can only be explained by the existence of a supernatural designer? I'd be glad to address these phenomena.

Quote from: "laetusatheos"Science is about studying the world around us so that we may gain a better understanding of it.....how did you not realize that initially?  Through gaining knowledge of our surrounding environment we are able to do good things such as finding cures for diseases (and these cures often have to be manufactured since they do not occur naturally).  Of course Darwin didn't create evolution...no thinking person believes that he did, he was just the first to explain what was happening in a way that actually made sense and could be tested and verified.  We all stand on the shoulders of others in order to further our knowledge and subsequently that of those around us...that's just being smart.  Why start out at square one when you were placed on square 90 by those who came before you?  Just because we utilize knowledge of the past does not mean there is necessarily anything magical providing that knowledge...it's all about baby steps to progress whether you are talking about knowledge or evolution.  Basically, in not so few words, you just said that you don't get how anything got here in the first place.  Which is an understandable view, yet not knowing does not mean there is a deity which place it there.  That line of thinking is called God of Gaps and is a rather well known logical fallacy.

As for believing every claim made by professionals...that's just as stupid as believing every claim made by religion.  Professionals write about how they reached their views so that we may read for ourselves (or even test on our own in some cases) to decide if that claim is valid or not.  It is often best to not accepts claims which cannot be verified by others; especially if that claim is important enough to affect world views.  We do ourselves a disservice when we do not care enough to investigate claims deeply enough that we not only know the meaning of the claim but can also explain how various people arrived at that conclusion.

Claiming that God provided you proof by turning green liquid in to red just for you is rather selfish when you think about all those who truly do need a miracle yet have their prayers go unanswered....all of us here are more fortunate than most people in the world since we have both the free time and means to simply access a computer and get on the internet.  If your god does exist and is going to be selective about what prayers it does answer...you'd think it would be more concerned about things such as curing babies with AIDS or cancer than turning some guy's liquid a different color.  Worthwhile miracles not being claimed to occur as  often as silly miracles is not necessarily proof that a god doesn't exist...but it certainly would say a lot about God's character if it does exist.

I agree with most of what you say. God answers prayers in ways He views just, not always in the way the person making the prayer requests, I felt God was giving me final conformation when I was still on the fringe of His existence and He knew I would share my convictions. The real abomination is that man-kind allows you and me to be on our computers while others starve, that a hierarchy of whom can live exists and is based in money and the desires of a few. God expresses His anger in our decisions, and we have natural disasters, its a shame that innocent people die, but if they were truly innocent, then their death took them from tyranny and brought them into something much better. If they died and are nothing, than what does it matter, so goes nature. I believe there is divine justice, that's what causes the storms in the first place, those whom place themselves above others and are selfish and heartless, their corruption is leading to the expression of anger. God is harsh, but I believe He is just. All I know is that it's completely out of my hands, and that all I want to do is spread positivity, because it makes me feel good as well as others, and perhaps allow those whom are Godless to consider that their belief is just as extreme as believing in God. Believing in absolute nothingness governed by God as opposed to absolute everything governed by God is just as extreme as the other, the middle ground is denial of your true belief because of the convictions necessary for either side. Science proves God exists, otherwise everything would be derived from man rather than described by man.

QuoteI feel that the others were great messengers of God as well, but none were kept as well track of as Jesus Christ. Because of the information available on Jesus, I choose to follow his teachings because of how comprehensively they were recorded. I also believe that of all the messengers sent by God, that Jesus Christ was on a higher dimensional plane than the other messengers, and was able to have more of an impact because of how close to God he actually was, the others were very close to God as well, but I believe Jesus was extremely close to God. And because he was so dear to God, that he would be the messenger and sacrifice to end all messengers and sacrifices.

Dude, now it sounds like you are just making crap up how ever you want. What you are saying would only make sense if the messages and stories of the afterlife were exactly the same. There are different stories about god based on geographic location. Don’t you think if “god” talked to these different people, then the stories would all be the same throughout the world?

If only one story is the right out of all of them, then why not the story of Allah and Mohammed? The Muslim religion is well documented and practiced by more people around the world than Christianity. Wouldn’t you want 72 virgins in the afterlife instead of some wings, a harp and no genitals?

Quote from: "Willravel"

Quote from: "mattreed"If you've always lived made out of plastic in a plastic world, you'd never know flesh or wooden structures. Nothing seems artificial about it at all, we have no way, in this form, to understand it's materialization, we can describe the materialization beautifully.

I don't think I was clear. I apologize. What do you see in the natural world that can only be explained by the existence of a supernatural designer? I'd be glad to address these phenomena.

Blood circulatory systems, light into mental image via retina, light in general, love I experience, the particular placement of my hands, arms, eyes, nose, ears, sound. You can describe these functions in as many human descriptors as you want to, if it wasn't designed than it wouldn't remain intact, it would overwhelm and crumble itself, the perpetual balance of life in general, the 73% of unexplained universe, the amazing efficiently of the atom as a block of information, the variety of animal life that lives in ultimate harmony, the impossibility for water to exist in its quantity by random comets because of how close our planet is to the sun, and that comet ice is completely different from the water we have an abundance of, how we eat and drink and are alive from this without any conscious breaking down of food and conscious conversion into electrical energy. You can describe these functions to me all you want, but I will keep believing in the amazing ability of God until man can match Him.

Quote from: "jcm"Dude, now it sounds like you are just making crap up how ever you want. What you are saying would only make sense if the message and story of the afterlife was exactly the same. There are different stories about god based on geographic location. Don’t you think if “god” talked to these different people, then the story would all be the same throughout the world?

If only one story is the right out of all of them, then why not the story of Allah and Mohammed? The Muslim religion is well documented and practiced by more people around the world than Christianity. Wouldn’t you want 72 virgins in the afterlife instead of some wings, a harp and no genitals?

I don't think that one story is right over another, I believe they are all coming from the same source and basically are telling the same story of morals and spirituality, but they have varying levels of man's corruption. I wouldn't want 72 virgins because I used to have a problem with lust, lust had power over me, and I don't want anything to have power over me. If I find something negative about a religion, I avoid it, its a personal journey, I feel its necessary. Jesus isn't above me, we were both flesh at one point in time, he's a great example for me to take examples from as I go on my own personal connection with my spirit, I know it exists. If Allah and Mohammad and Buddah allow for people to be spiritually satisfied, I would caution them in some of the subtleties of negativity I find in their choices, as I do with you and your belief, but I do not by any means want to force anything on anyone, because of how personal this experience is.

Honestly I feel as though I should stop responding to things because I realize my post was made as an effort to impose on your beliefs, and I feel I was being unfair to your beliefs, but I will continue what I started I suppose.

Quote from: "mattreed"I have always believed this, this is why I think it's designed.

You're banking a lot on the teleological argument's assertion that everything in the universe is ordered (even if it appears chaotic). The antithesis of chaos theory (something I'm much more interested in) which implies that a set of entirely chaotic circumstances and conditions will invariably amalgamate into an apparent pattern, or seeming 'order', or ecological system, etc - a prime example being the weather: it has patterns, can be predicted, and could be described as ordered but it's formed and affected by a vast array of random contributors from the mountains of Northern India to a single leaf on a tree somewhere in Brazil.

I'm still ok with the insinuation of universal order, owing to the fact that 'order' and 'chaos' are very abstract, entirely subjective and almost absurdist concepts, however that isn't all you're saying. You're making assumptions about what the overall 'sum' of that order is: a conscious, sentient being that you would call Yahweh. Why is it a mind? Why a he as opposed to a she or a they or - and this is what seems most likely to me - an it. A non-living, non-thinking, non-emotional, lifeless thing. Even if we run with the assumption that the universe is an example or product of a perfect order, what about this suggests the presence of a God? Experience? Experience, if this is the case, tells us that sentient conscious entities are a product and example of this order and complexity, not that order and complexity are a product and example of a working mind. So existence itself is liable to be about as sentient as a dinner plate, surely?

But then you could come along with the classic teleological definition of order:

order = functional - one thing or a network of things perpetrates another with that purpose, like the cogs in a clock.

And if something has a function or and intent behind it - a purpose to fulfil - then it implies a brain to hold that intent, thus an ordered universe implies the presence of a creator. This is how we distinguish order from chaos, isn't it? We can look at a clock and say "those cogs are as they are because a man made them with them with the express purpose of communicating the time, ergo they are ordered."

Notice though that the statement that there's a mind there, that there is an intent there, precedes the statement that the thing is ordered. If you go by the aforementioned definition of 'order' then you need to have either the knowledge (eg. that clocks are made by man) or the assumption (eg. that universes are made by Gods) of a conscious intent or purpose set up before you can make the statement that anything is 'ordered'. So the teleological argument is a very tight example of circular logic, in that case:

You assume that there is a God, use that assumption to find and point out 'order', then use the 'order' that you've found to support the existence of God.

Excellent!

Quote from: "mattreed"Blood circulatory systems,

I'm sure you've seen evolutionary models showing that life on Earth was once only microscopic (as is demonstrated through the fossil record). Over the billions of years that life has existed on this planet, the evolutionary route of certain species has led to larger and larger organisms. As organisms became larger and larger, the system by which they disperse nourishment had to change. If you look at the circulatory system in an ant, you see what's called an "open" circulatory system, where the organs get their nourishment by osmosis. Unfortunately, this does not work well for creatures that are larger than insects. Can you imagine how long it would take nourishment to go from the duodenum to the brain? This limited the size of animals until a genetic mutation created a pump. That pump was able to push the nourishment farther, reaching more extremities. This allowed animals to grow larger and larger. Eventually veins formed along the pump which helped the nourishment go further and further. This is how the circulatory system developed.

Quote from: "mattreed"light into mental image via retina,

I just made a thread about this, actually. It's located here: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1325 (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1325)
I hope you'll post any questions you might have.

Quote from: "mattreed"light in general,

Light is energy.

Quote from: "mattreed"love I experience,

Love is several things. It's an emotional response, a psychological phenomena, and a biochemical reaction. Chemicals like dopamine are released in response to the emotional stimuli which are a response to meeting certain psychological cues.

Quote from: "mattreed"the particular placement of my hands, arms, eyes, nose, ears, sound.

Hands: located on limbs in order to aid in movement and the ability to hold and climb. Arms: closer to the head to that they can protect the brain and eyes. Nose, close to the eyes so they can work in tandem to ascertain information faster. Ears: close to the brain for speed, and on each side of the head to get 360 degree coverage. Sound is vibrations in the air.

Quote from: "mattreed"You can describe these functions in as many human descriptors as you want to, if it wasn't designed than it wouldn't remain intact, it would overwhelm and crumble itself,

There is no evidence to suggest this. If a function is unfavorable to the survival of the species, odds are that it will be removed through selection eventually. If it is a survival or beneficial trait, then it will remain intact so long as it's a boon.

Quote from: "mattreed"the perpetual balance of life in general, the 73% of unexplained universe,

That which is out of site is beyond explanation?

Quote from: "mattreed"the amazing efficiently of the atom as a block of information,

Atoms don't store information.

Quote from: "mattreed"the variety of animal life that lives in ultimate harmony,

Most places in the universe kill life instantly. The amazing amounts of heat and cold along with radiation are instantly deadly to all forms of life, even water bears. Natural disasters strike all the time. I myself have experienced earthquakes and tornadoes. China just lost quite a few good people in an earthquake. Disease claims millions of lives a year. 90% of all the life that has ever lived on Earth is now completely extinct. It took over 3.5 billion years just to make multicellular life. Have you ever seen someone with multiple sclerosis? Leukemia? And those are just the unhealthy people. Perfectly healthy people are likely to die from cancer or heart disease. We exhale MOST of the oxygen we inhale. We sleep for 1/3 of our life. And worst of all, our pleasure center is right next door to our waste disposal plant. I'd not call any of that harmony. It's the chaotic part of living in our universe.

Quote from: "mattreed"the impossibility for water to exist in its quantity by random comets because of how close our planet is to the sun, and that comet ice is completely different from the water we have an abundance of,

I did a little reading on this one, because I wasn't sure off the top of my head. It seems the most likely explanation is that the Earth actually formed much farther from our Sun than we had previously supposed. This will have meant that the Earth will have been at the right distance from the Sun to run into plenty of frozen H20.

Quote from: "mattreed"how we eat and drink and are alive from this without any conscious breaking down of food and conscious conversion into electrical energy.

Some part of our body respond to our conscious mindâ€"from our fingers to our toesâ€"but many functions are basically automated. Things like the heart-beat and digestion happen due to a different part of our nervous system; the sympathetic nervous system.

Quote from: "mattreed"You can describe these functions to me all you want, but I will keep believing in the amazing ability of God until man can match Him.

This is a dangerous attitude, Matt. So God is responsible even for things that have a perfectly reasonable and supported explanation? This is a turning point in your life. Are you going to become one of those people that says god put fossils in the ground to test us? Or will you allow your critical thinking to continue developing? And just to be clear, I'm not asking you to become atheist. I'm not even asking you to not believe in god. I'm just requesting that you not allow the discrepancies between science/reason and religion to force you to make a rash and unfortunate choice.

Quote from: "Mister Joy"So the teleological argument is a very tight example of circular logic, in that case:
You assume that there is a God, use that assumption to find and point out 'order', then use the 'order' that you've found to support the existence of God.

Mister Joy has a very valid point.

Matt: many of your answers employ circular reasoning...

I'm a Christian because I believe in Jesus.
I believe in Jesus because I'm a Christian.

Here's an example of a question, a circular logic answer, and a real answer:

Q) Why are you a baker?

A1) I'm a baker because I bake things.
(circular logic)

A2) I always loved to eat, and have a very discerning pallate.  My family owned a restaraunt, and I started as a waiter.  I moved on to prep work and cooking, but soon discovered I liked to be more precise.  I enrolled in a cullinary school and looked over a variety of options.  Baking seemed like the best fit for my desires and skills.  I now run my own bakery and I've been happy with it ever since.
(linear logic)

Circular or Recursive logic are not real answers.

You don't have to answer these questions now.
Take some time.
Really think about it.

The answer may be that you were raised a Christian.
Or had an influental teacher who believed in Christ.

So... one more time:
Why are you a Christian?

JoeActor

Quotethey have varying levels of man's corruption

Indeed, but not yours of course.

QuoteI don't want anything to have power over me.

What like the sun, water, oxygen, & food? Or do you just mean dirty stuff sex, yuck! What about going to the bathroom, which you also have no control over? You should just staple your ass shut because that is pure concentrated evil coming out of you.

QuoteIf I find something negative about a religion, I avoid it, its a personal journey,

I thought we were trying to get to the truth, not your version of it. Making up stories is easy for anyone. That says nothing about the truth.

My method:
Idea â€" test - proof â€" truth
Idea â€" test â€" inconclusive evidence â€" I don’t know

Your method:
Idea â€" sounds great â€" truth/good
Idea â€" sounds bad â€" evil/wrong/untrue

Quote...even water bears

HAHAHA!

Quote from: "jcm":P

Quote from: "mattreed"

Quote from: "Willravel"You now understand that evolution isn't random, right? I hope I explained it well enough.

I have always believed this, this is why I think it's designed.

What do you think of this video:

 [youtube:7ihq5tst]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ia4B_xqFjoc[/youtube:7ihq5tst]

I could have written out a lengthy response about what I think about the idea of nature being designed...but the video adds humor and gets the point across.

*** Warning!  Way off topic! ***

Quote from: "jcm"

Quote...even water bears

HAHAHA!

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi91.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk292%2Fbekster3%2Funtitled-5.jpg&hash=a7e04f951617e6a6209e1457a23cc15d6b85bac2)
Hey, don't laugh... they're very dangerous!
(almost as bad as a "sea rhinoceros")

The more you know,
JoeActor

QuoteI agree with you on what people have done with religion, I don't include myself in religion, I believe there is enough in the Bible for me to create my own beliefs on what is morally correct and I build my own spirituality with Jesus Christ as an example.

Create your own beliefs based on the Bible? God didn't write the Bible. Jesus didn't write the Bible. People did. It's still all hearsay. Whether you place your trust only in the Bible, you're still not putting trust in Jesus as much as you are in people. Ancient superstitious people. I've heard it said from other Christians that if you could distill the purpose of the Bible into a few words, it would be "Self-Sacrificing Love." I've also heard the Bible defined as a "love letter". But you don't need to know anything about Jesus to know how to love others. Sure, it's a decent example, but the Bible confuses the issue of morality and love more than it encourages that sort of behavior. We all create our own beliefs based on things we learn, but to only have one frame of reference (Jesus) is narrow minded.

QuoteI haven't been sick for 2 years, I feel this is because I am conscious of my spiritual balance as well as my physical balance.

What? To be perfectly honest that's rediculous. I guarantee you will get sick at some point. And not to be a pessimist, but you'll die too. We all will. Whether or not you get sick is no sign of any spiritual balance.

QuoteI believe more in God than ever, and nothing here is nothing I haven't already heard from other Atheists, none of it disproves God

We're not trying to disprove God. Just like it was stated earlier. You can't prove a negative assumption. But you can look at all the facts and make a sober discernment of reality. Fourth dimentions are not sober discernments of reality.

QuoteIn the dimensions above, we are a materialization of their thoughts. I cannot prove this, but science has proven the existence of multiple dimensions,and because atoms are made of 99.9999% empty space, it seems plausible to me that everything is made up of 99.9999% empty space

Now this is just getting weird. But what does empty space have to do with multiple dimensions?

QuoteI feel Jesus

How does he feel?

Quoteand the truth I end up with is invaluable to me, because it made me feel better than ever, and that eventually, negativity will be impossible because of my convictions.

It seems like you discern your own truth based on how you feel. Which is fine, we all have a right to that. However, truth is truth whether you feel sick or not, and whether it makes you feel good or bad or makes you want to shoot yourself in the face. I'm not convinced after reading your posts that truth is what you value so much as feelings based on your own interpretation of the New Testament.

I don't mean to sound rude or disrespectful, but that's just my assessment.

I've not been sick for a few years also, but mine is more due to ingesting healthy food and exercising not praising god. Multivitamins used to be considered evil by the Catholic church.

Quote from: "mattreed"Right now, your response supports the arrogant stereotype that people place on atheists, and I'm sure you don't want that, or perhaps you do.

How nice that you can call the kettle black, my friend.  Your entire first email was nothing short of arrogant.  I'm sorry that, when you were a non-believer, you felt you were responsible for everything on earth.  Not one of the atheists I takes that responsibility.  I don't believe that science created everything, nor do I believe that *I* know everything there is to know simply because I eschew a belief in a deity.  I'm stumbling, just as all humanity stumbles... however, I don't waste time praying for a solution.  I create a solution and get on with it.

You are the worst type of Christian, coming here and baiting the weak-minded atheists with pseudo debates about science and your past as a non-believer humbling you to belief instead of just believing in your god and letting us conduct our lives without it.  At least we're honest about our arrogance.  You flaunt yours and then attempt to maintain innocence.  

Quote from: "mattreed"If I die and there is nothing, at least I died trying to gain eternal life and spread love and happiness along the way, what greater goal? And at least to have a positive goal in death, rather than nothing.

I could go line by line in your original post and just have a field day but I'll stick with this one quote.  Again with the holier than thou attitude here.  It insinuates that only believers can live a life spreading love and happiness whereas atheists live for nothing.

Nothing could be further from the truth.  We live our lives full of sharing, spreading of love and happiness and all that those things entail.  I so tire of the believer's notion that we are merely hanging around, waiting to drift off into nothingness, possibly worshipping the devil or murdering small animals at midnight, encouraging people to be gay or spreading hatred around like peanut butter, hoping small children will take a taste and get caught in our web.  Such misconceptions are dangerous, ill-conceived and just plain rude.

You may say that at least you were a good person and what's wrong with that... but you're doing it so you can get into heaven, so your good works are completely self-serving.  The atheistic standpoint, however, is to do what's right, REGARDLESS of the "payoff" or result, good or bad, because we only get this one shot at life and why spend it trying to make mistakes or hurt others?  It doesn't serve the human race to hurt others... makes no sense at all.

Quote from: "mattreed"the arrogant stereotype that people place on atheists

Honestly - how did this stereotype develop?  I don't get this.  Here:

Theist: There is a god.  I don't need physical evidence or anything, I just know it, in my heart, to be true.

Atheist: How can you claim to know that?  I don't see how anyone could possibly know that.  I certainly don't know that.

Theist: You atheists are so arrogant!

Atheist: Um, color me confused.....

Theist: Look, I just know it to be true, okay, I can't tell you why or how.  But you better believe me, on my word, because I'm right!!!!

Atheist: And you think I'm arrogant?!?

All I'm hearing here is some vague nonsense. There is no proof that anything in nature was created by a creator. All evidents point to natural processes that have occured over millions or billions of years. Should there have been a God, why didn't he get his message properly across? All what is written in the Bible is nothing more than the ramblings of a bunch of superstious goatherders, who had not a single clue about how the world turns. There is so much nonsense and inconsistancies in the Bible that you can't take it seriously. Christianity can in fact been seen as the bastard son of ancient religious that preceded it. Just add bit of egyptian mythology, some greek and roman gods, spiced up with fake jewish believes and add a sauce of early christian forgeries (like the Roman letters of Paul), etc. and there it is. The Bible therefore adds nothing new, nothing groundbraking and is certainly not the word of God. The chances that Jesus was a real historical figure are also pretty slim. Apart from the Bible there is no historical evidence that this guy actually existed. The stories about him in the Bible were written many decennia after his death by people who had never met the Jesus character in person. To justify the existence of Jesus then many christians refer to books that were again written decennia (even centuries) after Jesus death and that were clevery forged by early christian "historians". If you separate fact from fiction than nothing remains. Even if you take the Bible serious then there is no escape from the fact that this Jesus figure was not the all-loving mr. Good Guy. As a matter of fact he resembles more like a fundamentist muslim zeolot than the  good-natured hippie that all christians seem to love. Definitively not someone who you want to get into your "heart, even if that is physically possible (which is not).

Quotemattreed wrote:
I love biology, chemistry, botany, the geological records have astounding information, physics are great fun, I'm in a constant battle to defy them, I made a magnetic vortex motor that can overcome its own friction, I'm going to use it as a model for how magnetic vortexes and electrical vortexes when in equilibrium can actually attain anti-gravity, fun stuff! I believe that all of that stuff is designed by God, the working matter of the universe, I believe is a crafted living design, and we can describe it and study it and understand the rainbow, but we can only imitate the process of the rainbow, we cannot create the process itself.

What amazes me is that you seem to like the field of science, and perhaps you may even apply part or all of the scientific method at times, yet it seems as though you missed the fact that you can't apply this method to investigate the existence of your creator.  Is god exempt?

QuoteWhen it comes down to it, believing in nothing at all is just as extreme as believing in everything, and believing in a middle ground is impossible, and personally I think that God's existence makes perfect sense.

Again I defer to the scientific method.  You don't start out believing your hypothesis, do you?  You start with a blank slate - believing in nothing.

Quote from: "SteveS"Theist: There is a god.  I don't need physical evidence or anything, I just know it, in my heart, to be true.

Atheist: How can you claim to know that?  I don't see how anyone could possibly know that.  I certainly don't know that.

Theist: You atheists are so arrogant!

Atheist: Um, color me confused.....

Theist: Look, I just know it to be true, okay, I can't tell you why or how.  But you better believe me, on my word, because I'm right!!!!

Atheist: And you think I'm arrogant?!?

Steve, you forgot the "STOP PERSECUTING ME" part.  

This was touching. And difficult to get through.

I can't believe you say you have logic.

Then say that since you can't explain how the descriptions of science came to be, you must put your trust in an intangible being that needs even more explanation than the original concept.

You mentioned human reproduction.  How does "God makes the process work" explain it any better than "the process works."?

Also, you say that you can't create anything.  This, to me, is sad.  Who created god?  Did god just always exist? If this is okay to you, then why can't you be okay with other things just "always existing?"  Like the Universe.

Evolution is not random, and this completely destroys any validity you established.  A bird doesn't decide to grow a longer beak, that is retarded.  The species reproduces normally and the most successful traits survive.  If a long beak is necessary to survive, the longest beaked birds will survive, thus making further generations have longer beaks.  I am not claiming to be an expert of evolution, as I have never studied it... It just makes logical sense to me, but I think you should research it more before making ridiculous claims.

If you to call yourself a man of logic and reason, you must see the incredible errors in syntax in your post.  The existence of god would simply strike up a million unanswerable questions for every one it answers, which defeats your proposed purpose- God as an explanation to the unexplainable.

I pity you that you saw the joys of godlessness and cowered away from it because of the inability to think logically.  

You will be in my prayers.  If i believed in that garbage.

:P

I concur with pj. I prefer to be factual in conversations like this because it's easy to allow emotion to get the better of one's self. Thus my lengthy and (what I think are) meticulous answers.

Let's represent atheism proudly.

It does seem like the power and information come from outside, like from a god or a source. But that's because sometimes our brain is like a valve, opening and closing off streams of information...It only seems like there's a god sometimes.