Happy Atheist Forum

I didn't know where to put this, so I put it here...

My son's school is having a fun run fundraiser next month.  Last year, they gave the kids doodad crap as a "reward" for persevering and running (they really didn't have a choice... it was held during PE) but this year, it's a bigger deal.  They're giving the kids a T-shirt for running.  They're having a contest for the illustration for the front of the shirt and are offering advertising for the back.

As you can see, we have the Atheism Quotes site on which we feature quotes from secular and atheist-minded folks and we also have a cafe press site where you can get most of the quotes on T-shirts, mugs, etc. along with a number of atheistic graphics the hubby has created.

We also feature our very own atheist logo:  

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.croppincorner.com%2Fimages%2FAtheistLogo125.jpg&hash=aa0f0cbc4eae5109df081580baeb80a2d969a6d4)

For the Fun Run, they are offering a 2x2 graphic advertistment on the back of the shirt for $50 or a 3x3 graphic advertisement for $100.  I told Joe we should do the atheist logo with our business web address in the 3x3... it's a business venture and we're parents at the school, why not.

I'm now having second thoughts.  We haven't sent it in yet.  There are LOTS of religious people in this school.  Would this be considered a bad move, do you think?  If the organizers even LET us put in our logo, who knows.

What do you guys think?

Of course it would be considered a bad move by the majority of people around you and in the U.S. You'd probably even turn it into a national news story and be featured all over the place.

So, you just have to decide if that's how you want it to go. It sucks, but that's something that could very easily happen.

It is asking for trouble. There are a lot of very ignorant and hate-filled people out there.

Does your son know self defense?

Yeah - I'd have to echo a little concern here too.  Might not be the right field to fight this battle on.

Although it is a nice idea...I wouldn't do it just to spare  your son from the repercussions.  If the other kid's parents get mad at you their kids will take it out on your son.

You are all correct, of course.  I double checked with the hubby and he said, "Of COURSE it will piss people off... I thought you KNEW that."  LOL!

I spoke with two Christian mom friends of mine at the kid's school and they both said THEY wouldn't have a problem with it as long as we didn't include the web address (which IS the business) because it has the "A" word in it.  I asked if I registered and did a re-route using "freethinker.com" instead and they were okay with that.

Then there is the separation of church and state, as one of them mentioned.  But if this is a non-religious organization, does that mean anything to me?  The fact that it's atheist, the logistical opposite of religion... one of the moms felt the separation issue applies.

Honestly, I've had NO problems with other parents at this school.  No one has been openly mean or even discourteous to me.  I attended a prayer group (The International Moms in Touch group) and introduced mmyself as the "resident atheist" and they welcomed me with open arms, never trying to preach to me.  I stopped going after 4 meetings, back in October, because I just couldn't listen to them any more... and it coincides with when I post the newsletter for the secretary to print, so that was a convenient excuse as well.  But the two moms pointed out, rightly, that not everyone knows my beliefs and there are some who are VERY religious and would probably be upset.

I spoke to Brendan about how it might affect him... he said he'd be upset if someone didn't want to play with him because of it.

I think I'll just skip it.  It PAINS me to do so... I should be able to without worrying about this at all!  It shouldn't BE an issue.   :(

I think that you made the correct decision. Using shirts worn by children in this context is probably not the best way to advertise atheism. There are certainly many other ways to go about doing this without upsetting a lot of people.

Thanks for your feedback, everyone.  The way it stands right now, after more discussion, is that I'll check with the organizer the night before the deadline to see if there are any religious groups advertising and if there are, we will submit the logo without any web address.  Unless you know what the A stands for, you won't know what it means without the web address.  It will be only fair if they can advertise without fear of retribution, so can we.

Again I have to say how dismayed I am at the state of this country, that this is such a big freaking hairy deal.  Of course, 10 years ago, I didn't have a reason to HAVE this type of website.  Scary world we live in right now.

I think it is a good idea. I mean, how many complaints would arise if someone submitted a design that incorporated Jesus? This disparity needs to be highlighted with potential situations such as those described.

Be strong and go with your convictions.

Well done for having the balls to do it! Respect mate

Hey rlrose, for what its worth, I think this course of action:

Quote from: "rlrose328"Thanks for your feedback, everyone. The way it stands right now, after more discussion, is that I'll check with the organizer the night before the deadline to see if there are any religious groups advertising and if there are, we will submit the logo without any web address. Unless you know what the A stands for, you won't know what it means without the web address. It will be only fair if they can advertise without fear of retribution, so can we.

is very reasonable and well balanced.

I agree with you that if the religious groups are going to advertise you should certainly be allowed to do likewise.  My concern with a stronger reaction is probably the same as your concern, which is that even though it wouldn't be "fair" it could still lead your child to have to face being ostracized or subjected to prejudicial treatment.  The fact that this isn't right doesn't change whether or not it is true.  Without knowing the climate of your environment, I guess only you can gauge the likely effect.  You seem reasonable to me, so I'd say trust your experience and go with it.

Let us know how everything turns out, though.  We atheists are a curious lot.....

Quote from: "SteveS"My concern with a stronger reaction is probably the same as your concern, which is that even though it wouldn't be "fair" it could still lead your child to have to face being ostracized or subjected to prejudicial treatment.  The fact that this isn't right doesn't change whether or not it is true.  Without knowing the climate of your environment, I guess only you can gauge the likely effect.  You seem reasonable to me, so I'd say trust your experience and go with it.

That is my main concern with my decision as well.  I talked to the woman who is organizing the shirts and the fun run last night.  She is a Christian whom I adore.  Her response:  "Put it in and if there are problems with any of the children, we deal with them and their parents, one by one."  Love her.  LOL!  I said if the web address weren't on there, she might be in the uncomfortable position of explaining what it means and her response was "And I'll tell them what it means... it doesn't scare me at all."  Did I mention I love her?   ;)   Seriously, though... I tend to be naive and my first instinct is that it just won't happen here.  But then I remember a conversation with one of the believers just the other day in which she said her children SHOULD be taught evolution if only so they can see how stupid it is, but she is insisting that ID be taught in FIFTH GRADE (!! lol

But there are others... and I guess there ARE some who don't know about me.  For so many, it's a non-issue... like the organizer of the fun run.  I'm relatively sure there would be no problems... but again, I'm naive at times.

So far, she has had no responses to the advertising thing at all, so if she gets no others and it's just us... Hmmmm...  

Quote from: "SteveS"Let us know how everything turns out, though.  We atheists are a curious lot.....

I've gone back and forth with this issue. From a marketing standpoint, you've got to know your target market. In a school setting with a bunch of Christian moms, you're probably not going to get much new business out of your ad. But it is a statement that causes awareness of atheism, that there are good atheist parents out there. And from that perspective I think it's a good idea as long as you feel safe doing it.

Quote from: "myleviathan"I've gone back and forth with this issue. From a marketing standpoint, you've got to know your target market. In a school setting with a bunch of Christian moms, you're probably not going to get much new business out of your ad. But it is a statement that causes awareness of atheism, that there are good atheist parents out there. And from that perspective I think it's a good idea as long as you feel safe doing it.

Funny you should mention the target market issue, myleviatian.  I discussed that with my husband last night.  I know there would be little to no business to be generated.  However, the $100 goes directly to the school for the fundraiser.  I told my husband we could just write them a check for $100 and be done with it, just like we talk about whenever there's a fundraiser.  

But Brendan likes going to people to ask if they can help the school.  Last year, he hit up the Taekwondo instructors for donations... those were the only ones other than us.  This year, we don't even have them, so I don't know what we'll do to get fun run pledges because our only friends are those at the school... there are our new atheist friends here in town, but 1) I don't know them well enough yet to hit them up for money and 2) they each have school-age kids going to local schools who have their OWN fundraising events.  So I guess it will all come out of our pockets.  

Then you may as well make it worth the $100 bucks and put your website on there.  
You know what's funny is that all Christians find different world viewpoints as a direct affront on theirs. That's the problem with it. They view everything as a Spiritual War that rages on the backs of cars and on kids T-shirts. It's so rediculous - I feel for you to have to dedicate so much to deciding what's right here.

Quote from: "rlrose328"But Brendan likes going to people to ask if they can help the school.

If you are concerned about there not being enough people to advertise on the shirts, have you thought about going with your son to local business to tell them about the shirt program?  I have found that a lot of businesspeople do not realize that advertising on something like this is a tax write off.  About half of those who say no initially will quickly change their minds if you mention tax write offs....it worked well getting advertising sponsors for a school mini-baja team (a team which did not have sponsors before i and a friend went out just one day to recruit).  Plus, if your kid ask it will make them even more likey to say yes...it's hard to say no to a cute little kid.

EXCELLENT idea, laetus!  I will do that tomorrow... we can hit up the scrapbook store for sure.  Thanks so much!!!  

Quote from: "rlrose328"Her response: "Put it in and if there are problems with any of the children, we deal with them and their parents, one by one." Love her. LOL! I said if the web address weren't on there, she might be in the uncomfortable position of explaining what it means and her response was "And I'll tell them what it means... it doesn't scare me at all." Did I mention I love her?

For good reason, it would seem.  She sounds like a truly decent person.

Quote from: "rlrose328"But then I remember a conversation with one of the believers just the other day in which she said her children SHOULD be taught evolution if only so they can see how stupid it is

This works for me.  As long as it is taught properly, I think it is self evident that the theory is anything but stupid.  This is the case where I would say "I have nothing to fear".  

The decision has been made for me.

The organizer talked to the principal, just to be sure (she meant no harm, I know that) and he said "nothing having to do with faith, either having it or not having it" is allowed as advertising on the shirt or on school grounds.   lol

Of course, the hubby was not happy, even though he was torn about doing it to begin with.  He said our business is secular and thus, shouldn't be affected by the Separation clause.   :D

Quote from: "rlrose328"Of course, the hubby was not happy, even though he was torn about doing it to begin with.  He said our business is secular and thus, shouldn't be affected by the Separation clause.  

I don't think it works that way...separation of church and state is meant to keep the government from having a stance on religion or otherwise pushing a view related to religion on others.  So, it would be just as wrong for them to promote an atheist view as it would for them to promote Christianity or Islam.

Quote from: "laetusatheos"I don't think it works that way...separation of church and state is meant to keep the government from having a stance on religion or otherwise pushing a view related to religion on others.  So, it would be just as wrong for them to promote an atheist view as it would for them to promote Christianity or Islam.

But why is that?  We do not have religion or a belief in god.  We are promoting freethought and scientific views, not a belief in a deity.  Merely because the name of the site is "atheismquotes.com" and has the A word in it?  We also have "freethinkerquotes.com" going to the same site... would that be more acceptable and not violate the separation clause?

Tricky argument.  I'm inclined to go with laetusatheos on this one.  To me, atheism is a reactionary position.  Atheist = not-theist.  So, if there were no religions (and therefore no theists) then there would be no atheists, either.  I can't see how to completely decouple atheism from religion (although I agree that it is not, itself, a religion).  Atheism is a position of not-religious.  Promoting atheism, which is akin to promoting "no religion", would seem to me to be making a statement against religion, and the separation clause seems (again, seems to me) to be clear about neither endorsing nor preventing religious belief.  I think one could make the case that promoting/advertising atheism is at odds with the separation clause on the grounds that it is preventing religious belief.  While there can be no freedom of religion if the government sides with a particular faith, there can also be no freedom of religion if the government sides with "no religion".

Even if this isn't really clear (although I sort of think it is) I think you can justify the principal's position as one of caution.  And, I can hardly blame him for that.

I concur completely... I adore our principal and he knows me pretty well.  He knows I won't cause a ruckus because I love our school.

I'm okay with all of this... just another little touch of drahhhh-ma in my oh-so-drab life.   :raised: