Happy Atheist Forum

Hi, I'm new to all this, hope I'm putting opinion in the right place.

I want to ask a question and gage opinion (bearing in mind I have no religion); "If there was an Atheist who was to prove that there was no God and no Jesus and no Creationism etc, would you feel satisfied and happy in proving to them that everything they believe in is false?"

If you answer yes I want to know why would you feel satisfied in telling them.

I would feel satisfied that I had chosen the factual belief and that maybe... JUST MAYBE... the contentious atmosphere would dissipate once and for all.  I would take a little joy in informing them that they've been wrong, but mostly, it would be relief.

Welcome to the forum, Sarah. Good question. I would not feel any sort of self-satisfaction of proving "them" wrong. No feelings of gloating, or smugness. BUT I would feel very happy that mankind finally took the baby steps away from fantasyland and began its real journey to rationality.

Hi Sarah - welcome to the board!  Good question.  Whether or not I would feel satisfaction in any theists being conclusively proven wrong would depend a great deal on the individual.  Some yes, some no.  For example, I have relatives that believe strongly, although they do not force their beliefs upon me.  They would most likely be devastated to a significant degree by any conclusive non-God proof, and this would sadden me to see their pain.  Someone like Kent Hovind, on the other hand?  How could I suppress a smirk....  

I would only explain it to people who asked. And my satisfaction would relate directly to whether or not the news was ultimately detrimental or helpful to them.

SteveS, I was glad to read this reply. I also have family and friends who are strong believers. I don't think I would feel any satisfaction at all in telling a christian or catholic that their faith was bollocks (if it was proven!) I spoke to one of my friends whoes christian and realised that they live beautiful lives and if it means they believe in stuff that I believe is rubbish (like creationism, sheesh!) then who cares! If it makes them happy, who cares. I would not take that away from them.

Sarah, indeed.  I do try to stick by my "live and let live" principle.  I would not, however, have them visit their faith upon me.  Don't want it, don't need it.  But they don't (for the most part) do this, and I think everyone has to be free to make their own decisions (which will inevitably include making their own mistakes).  To me, everyone has to figure out what's best for themselves on their own, because they're the only ones who can.  I can't help but feel they'd be better off without the faith, but then again I'm me and they're they.  In the end I'm a fan of freedom of religion.  People should be free to practice it, but the practice should not be enforced on anyone.  Neither should religious principles be passed into law - this is a form of enforcement.

Anyway - the question is largely hypothetical.  I can't help but think that there would be disagreement over whether or not any hypothetical "conclusive proof" is really "conclusive" or not.  The fact that evolution occurs seems as conclusive as anything else in the world to me, and yet a shocking percentage of people reject the theory due to their religious beliefs.  I think any "non-God proofs" would just lead to more of the same.  (shrugs)

Cheers!

Proof would be possible with a time machine.

"Hey Jesus, wanna show me that water to wine thing? No, I won't close my eyes and count to 10. Epic fail, Jesus. Epic fail."

Welcome to the forum, Sarah.

If a truly convincing to anyone proof that religions are fake were available, I would be concerned if it were released to the masses too quickly since I think many would react irrationally (think of how many theists use the if there is no god where did morality come from line of questioning).

That said....to prove to Fred Phelps and his group that they are following false beliefs, yes I'd be very satisfied and so would most other people.  To pull religion out from under someone who doesn't use it for immoral goals, that person's reaction would be sad and regretful in a way.  Converting by your own choice can be hard enough on a person...it would be even more difficult if the faith rug was just pulled out from underneath you.  

I think it would be best if society simply moves away from religion as people are ready to do so....which seems to be exactly what is happening since secularism is steadily climbing.

Quote from: "laetusatheos"to prove to Fred Phelps and his group that they are following false beliefs, yes I'd be very satisfied and so would most other people.

Crap!  I called out Kent Hovind, but you're right.  Fred Phelps would be horrendously satisfying.  How about William Dembski?  He always seems so arrogant to me....

Quote from: "Willravel""Hey Jesus, wanna show me that water to wine thing? No, I won't close my eyes and count to 10. Epic fail, Jesus. Epic fail."

:D :D :D

QuoteDude - that was hilarious!

*bows*
*splits pants*

I too must admit Fred Phelps and his followers are a bunch of fanatic nut bars...hate to be a hypocrite but I would be OOZING satisfaction in telling those fruitcakes that they were wrong, man would I be!

Quote from: "Willravel""Hey Jesus, wanna show me that water to wine thing? No, I won't close my eyes and count to 10. Epic fail, Jesus. Epic fail."

<snort> Okay, Will... you must come and clean my monitor, dude... that is one wicked giggle there!  

It never quite makes me happy to demonstrate that someone else's beliefs are wrong. However, I genuinely care about the truth, so I would be happy helping another individual see the truth (all of this, of course, presupposes what you said - that I have a definitive proof). There is absolutely nothing wrong with that!

It's not about gloating for me; I just want to be able to tell people what I think without endangering my relations with them. Several people already hate me just for being atheist.

I'm obviously fine with explaining to Christians why God definitely doesn't exist, since I already routinely explain to them why God probably doesn't exist.

That's an interesting twist on Pascal's Wager, Sarah.

But I have to wonder, if faith is the belief in something without facts (my definition may be wrong, do correct), why would any theist believe me if I showed any amount of factual or reason based evidence that their God didn't exist?

I think about what it would do to my parents if something like that happened. My dad, especially, has spent most of his adult life poring over the Bible, commentaries, and all kinds of related books. He's a layman of sorts, and to have empirical proof, once and for all, that it was all totally wrong, would just crush him. I think that sort of news would have to be broken with tact and temperance, and not smug satisfaction, not just to my parents, but to anyone of faith.

It would definitely depend on the person.

For instance I don't try and don't want to try to convert my mother. She is extremely devoted Christian and getting old and not very healthy. I believe her faith gives her inspiration to continue every day. I'm not saying any actual supernatural force is helping her, I'm saying her thought process of faith helps to keep her emotions up and happy. Could this be replaced in society for the general public? Absolutely, but I think my mother is too old and too set in her ways, a change wouldn't help her.

Quote from: "mrwynd"It would definitely depend on the person.

For instance I don't try and don't want to try to convert my mother. She is extremely devoted Christian and getting old and not very healthy. I believe her faith gives her inspiration to continue every day. I'm not saying any actual supernatural force is helping her, I'm saying her thought process of faith helps to keep her emotions up and happy. Could this be replaced in society for the general public? Absolutely, but I think my mother is too old and too set in her ways, a change wouldn't help her.

I could see that. You don't want to take someone who's been religious their whole lives and then tell them at the end of it that they're not going to heaven. That's been the whole point of their existence up to that point. It would destroy her.

In care for people with dementia, I've heard that it's unhealthy to try to force reality on them because it causes undue stress and actually can effect how they respond to treatment and overall health and quality of life. For example, an 87 year old man is upset because he can't find his mother. How helpful would it be to try to bring the man back into reality by breaking the news that he's 87 and his mother is long dead? Especially since he will forget in five minutes. So you have to remind him over and over again, which only causes more stress each time you tell him. The human response to stress, whether it's from being told your mother is dead or from fighting off a bear, is that the adrenal glands release epinephrine (adrenaline) and cortisol which throws your body into fight / flight mode. Long term exposure to these hormones can cause serious health risks. Cortisol in particular causes your immune system to become much less effective, so viruses/bacteria/foreign bodies are unable to be removed.

In light of this, I don't feel like I need to express something that will hurt my family and cause them stress unless they are prepared for it. If they ask, I'll tell them. However I can't justify telling someone who has a type of disease (fundamental theism), point blank that they're wrong just for the sake of trying to get some sense into their heads. As theists they aren't capable of comprehending sense, and the only outcome will be negative in my opinion.

As much as I would love it,I don't feel it would be right to do.There are alot of good people out there that believe in God.And I feel that as long as they remain good that they should be able to think whatever makes them happy.And eventually someone somewhere would come up with yet another God figure.I understand why people believe in God.It's crazy going thru life as it is.And some need to think that there is something better.The thought of dying is frightful.

I think things would go really, really bad. Think. All those people have based their morals on a book. What will be left of them if it's proved to be wrong? I can see some really crazy things happening.

So, I'm not sure it would be a good thing or not... but wouldn't it be nice if people woke up and realized we need to make the earth a better place because our lives is all we have.

Afreethinker, I'm fine with people believing in God, it's the whole preaching-mentioning it all the time and assuming that everyone thinks the same way that gets to me.

Quote from: "Pricia"I think things would go really, really bad. Think. All those people have based their morals on a book. What will be left of them if it's proved to be wrong? I can see some really crazy things happening.

So, I'm not sure it would be a good thing or not... but wouldn't it be nice if people woke up and realized we need to make the earth a better place because our lives is all we have.

Afreethinker, I'm fine with people believing in God, it's the whole preaching-mentioning it all the time and assuming that everyone thinks the same way that gets to me.

I can just imagine a martial law thing going on.To many people can't think for themselves and I see huge amounts of people fighting,stealing and murdering.I know some would probley be glad to finally know the unknown,but seeing how mob rules I see choas.Then can see the person or persons who have proof being accused of being the anti-christ.Sorry I just don't have much faith in people.

Quote from: "Sarah"Hi, I'm new to all this, hope I'm putting opinion in the right place.

I want to ask a question and gage opinion (bearing in mind I have no religion); "If there was an Atheist who was to prove that there was no God and no Jesus and no Creationism etc, would you feel satisfied and happy in proving to them that everything they believe in is false?"

If you answer yes I want to know why would you feel satisfied in telling them.

Good question. That made me think for a while. I'd have to say YES and NO. Yes to those that try to shove there religion down my throat and No to anyone else. Oh, and a big HELL YES to those Muslim extremest/suicide bombers, maybe they'd stop then.

I'd be happy to pull them out of ignorance.  Is it okay to let people believe a lie just because it makes them happy?

Quote from: "Sarah"If there was an Atheist who was to prove that there was no God and no Jesus and no Creationism etc, would you feel satisfied and happy in proving to them that everything they believe in is false?

I don't know how satisfied I would feel, but I would probably do some honest gloating.  :)

Before Monday I thought I would leave the religious to their religion.But now I said rip apart their beliefs,take away their holy notion and teach them that we are here only for the good of man.There are some people that use numbers thinking it will put others in their place.And frankly I'm sick of it.It's been used to many times to hide behind.When I am good it's because of god and when I am bad it's the devil.And if you don't believe in the same god you are evil and vile.