Happy Atheist Forum

I guess by now you have heard about Ben Stein's movie Expelled.  Personally, I have decided not to watch the movie until I am able to do so for free since I don't want to give Stein my money for him making Americans even more stupid.  That said, from what I've read it seems to be the same old bullshit, not even repackaged, and made into a big screen movie.  The following are links you may want to keep handy if a lot of people think the movie has any merit and you would like to provide them with a refutation without having to waste your valuable time refuting it yourself.

http://www.fas.org/blog/ssp/2008/04/ben ... llowed.php (http://www.fas.org/blog/ssp/2008/04/ben-stein-is-very-very-wrong-problems-with-expelled-no-intelligence-allowed.php)

http://www.expelledexposed.com/ (http://www.expelledexposed.com/)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiNGK3y5Ypg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiNGK3y5Ypg)

Thnaks for the links. I've decided not to contribute financially to Expelled's stupidity, too, but I haven't escaped the trailers that are playing on the Discovery Cahnnel as of late. Even these have ticked me off. First off, they portray an instructor as stating something to the effect that evolution works in a completely randomn and undirected way.  Never in my college bio courses did I ever have the experience of having a professor state anything in this way and it's extremely misleading and uninformed about evolution in general I would say.  Most of the time, my professors presented a lot of plain evidence and cladistics diagrams to explain things and didn't get on a soapbox about randomness. I didn't get into a lot of evolutionary theory since I majored in Cell Bio, so I'm actually pretty weak on it, but I certainly got enough to see that Expelled is, simply put, a load of horseshit.

Thanks - expelledexposed is a good site.

The movie's getting terrible reviews on RottenTomatoes.com  (as well it should)

Ben, I have lost all respect for you - what a terrible waste of a good mind...

JoeActor

 

This was my take on it, exactly:

Quote from: "laetusatheos"Personally, I have decided not to watch the movie until I am able to do so for free since I don't want to give Stein my money for him making Americans even more stupid.

For me, "free" means "comes out on cable", although I guess its not really free since I'm paying for the cable service....  Oh well.  Maybe I won't watch it afterall --- but curiosity is strong, and its hard to avert your eyes from a train wreck!

I haven't forked over any of my money to see this film either. No need to add a few extra dollars to these people's pockets. Has anyone on here paid to see this movie yet?

Here's a better way I would suggest - and might just jolly well do.

It's on Netflix, I see. You can get it, crack and copy it in minutes, and drop it right back in the mailbox (after microwaving it, perhaps.)

Re-encode in DivX, and post it as a torrent - packaged with rebuttals. It'll be all over the world for free within hours.

This both contradicts the "piece" and damages its market, badabingbang.

Lies are not entitled to copyrights anyway.  

How sad.I always thought he was smart but now he's just another fool.

Quote from: "afreethinker30"How sad.I always thought he was smart but now he's just another fool.

I was also very disappointed. I really used to love watching him on "Win Ben Stein's Money"

Guess he isn't so smart.

Will

I don't know if any of you realize this but the reality is that your disbelief in God has nothing to do with science. At least not true science because if you believe in evolution it is a religious view in it's self. I believe that 6,000 years ago or so God created the heavens and the earth. You believe that many billions of years ago nothing exploded and created everything, ect. The thing is though that none of you can tell me where this nothing came from or what was before it. Also you ignore many of the laws of physics in order to make this claim. So really this view is religious. My view says God and I will be honest I have no clue where He came from. So really evolution is RELIGION just as much as creation. So admit reality for once even though we all know the reason you push the evolution religion is really because you do not want anyone telling you what to do or not to do. That's really all I have to say. I will be praying for all of you and I sincerely hope that God opens your eyes.

Quote from: "Poetic_Absences"I don't know if any of you realize this but the reality is that your disbelief in God has nothing to do with science. At least not true science because if you believe in evolution it is a religious view in it's self. I believe that 6,000 years ago or so God created the heavens and the earth. You believe that many billions of years ago nothing exploded and created everything, ect. The thing is though that none of you can tell me where this nothing came from or what was before it. Also you ignore many of the laws of physics in order to make this claim. So really this view is religious. My view says God and I will be honest I have no clue where He came from. So really evolution is RELIGION just as much as creation. So admit reality for once even though we all know the reason you push the evolution religion is really because you do not want anyone telling you what to do or not to do. That's really all I have to say. I will be praying for all of you and I sincerely hope that God opens your eyes.

 

Quote from: "Poetic_Absences"You believe that many billions of years ago nothing exploded and created everything, ect. The thing is though that none of you can tell me where this nothing came from or what was before it.

Nobody was there, so at least some of us are trying to make sense of things as opposed to conveniently accepting the mythology of our ancestors. We're all attempting to reconcile the fractured picture of reality our senses grant us. Some of us do this by employing reason, and others use ancient mythological sources. I would rather employ reason especially considering no God has ever introduced himself to me.

Quote from: "Poetic_Absences"I don't know if any of you realize this but the reality is that your disbelief in God has nothing to do with science. At least not true science because if you believe in evolution it is a religious view in it's self. I believe that 6,000 years ago or so God created the heavens and the earth. You believe that many billions of years ago nothing exploded and created everything, ect. The thing is though that none of you can tell me where this nothing came from or what was before it. Also you ignore many of the laws of physics in order to make this claim. So really this view is religious. My view says God and I will be honest I have no clue where He came from. So really evolution is RELIGION just as much as creation. So admit reality for once even though we all know the reason you push the evolution religion is really because you do not want anyone telling you what to do or not to do. That's really all I have to say. I will be praying for all of you and I sincerely hope that God opens your eyes.

 

OTOH, Bill Maher's new film "Religulous (http://www.religulousmovie.net/)" looks to be great fun.

Kyu

Yup, we can't wait to see it...... it was reviewed in the latest issue of Entertainment Weekly, by a believer, no less... and he gave it an A-.  So it must be good.  

PA, it helps to really understand what you’re talking about before you run out and make such proclamations.  You are incorrect in your argument.  I will show you why but it is up to you if you wish to side with convenient ignorance and ignore it or if you actually do want to learn something and read, comprehend and think.

QuoteI don't know if any of you realize this but the reality is that your disbelief in God has nothing to do with science.

We do realize that and no one in this thread has mention this until you brought it up.  Science and religion are not necessarily mutually exclusive, however, literal interpretations of the bible are at odds with currently understood scientific facts.

QuoteAt least not true science because if you believe in evolution it is a religious view in it's self.

The irony here is you say “true science” and then call evolution a “religious view” â€" do you not see how this is absurd?  In a most generic sense, something is religious when it is connected to the supernatural and usually based upon faith and devotion to some supernatural entity.  Evolutionary theory has none of those aspects no matter how much you’d like to think so.  Belief is belief and I can believe in evolution but that has no bearing of its veracity â€" the theory stands upon a mountain of empirical data which speaks for itself â€" you should try reading a peer reviewed journal sometime.

QuoteI believe that 6,000 years ago or so God created the heavens and the earth.

Why do you believe this?  It is obviously utter non-sense.  The only support for this is a book created from collected stories from the early iron age.  Yet this is somehow more accurate than decades of empirical data which has been verified independently time and time again?

QuoteYou believe that many billions of years ago nothing exploded and created everything, ect.

It’s much more complicated than that but that’s beside the point because the big bang has nothing to do with evolutionary theory â€" if you as scientifically literate as you’d want us to believe, you’d know this.

QuoteThe thing is though that none of you can tell me where this nothing came from or what was before it.

I could explain the current hypothesis to you but I doubt you’d  1) understand it and 2) even consider the information because you’ve already made up your mind and don’t care how wrong or ridiculous it is.

 

QuoteAlso you ignore many of the laws of physics in order to make this claim.

What laws?  Are you still talking about the big bang?  Listen carefully â€" THE BIG BANG HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH EVOLUTIONARY THEORY!  Understand?

QuoteSo really this view is religious.

I just went over this earlier and no it isn’t - you really don't want me to start pulling out the references...

QuoteMy view says God and I will be honest I have no clue where He came from. So really evolution is RELIGION just as much as creation. So admit reality for once even though we all know the reason you push the evolution religion is really because you do not want anyone telling you what to do or not to do.

Do you just sit at home all day and think this crap up?  Please at least take a basic logic and intro philosophy course before attempting such mental acrobatics.

QuoteThat's really all I have to say. I will be praying for all of you and I sincerely hope that God opens your eyes.

Do what ya gotta do.  But if you want to play in the realm of science, it helps to know what the hell your talking about otherwise you just look foolish.

Quote from: "Squid"We do realize that and no one in this thread has mention this until you brought it up.  Science and religion are not necessarily mutually exclusive, however, literal interpretations of the bible are at odds with currently understood scientific facts.

Actually, and I honestly understand the point you're making (quite well IMO), I don't really think science and religion are truly compatible because in order to believe one has to have faith, faith (religious faith at any rate) is not based in evidence where science is and when there is no evidence science takes no position. So in order to believe one must suspend that normal scientific stance of neutrality .. in essence I think the believer has taken one step closer towards insanity, it's just not politically correct to say so.

Kyu

Quote from: "Poetic_Absences"I don't know if any of you realize this but the reality is that your disbelief in God has nothing to do with science.

First of all I am going to point out that most atheists (at least in my experience) don’t actually disbelieve in “God” they simply reject current claims to it on the basis of there being inadequate evidence to support such a claim. Secondly I will ask you a question ... which “God” are we supposed to be disbelieving in? Zeus? Yahweh? Quetzalcoatl? Odin?

Quote from: "Poetic_Absences"At least not true science because if you believe in evolution it is a religious view in it's self.

No because we don’t “believe” in evolution in the same way as you “believe” in your God ... we simply accept that the theory of evolution represents the best current explanation for the diversity of life we see around us based on the data so far uncovered by various workers in the field and other associated ones. Maybe in a 100 years someone will have a new theory (though, if so, my money would be on it have a striking similarity to the current one) but the point is that you appear to be DRIVEN by your beliefs to reinterpret the data to suit your worldview, most of us will go where the evidence leads even, though I have few doubts we’ll resist for at least a while, if that leads to a new and radically different explanation.

Quote from: "Poetic_Absences"I believe that 6,000 years ago or so God created the heavens and the earth.

And you do so without a shred of supporting validatable evidence.

Quote from: "Poetic_Absences"You believe that many billions of years ago nothing exploded and created everything, ect.

No, Sir Frederic Hoyle described it as an explosion, as the big bang, because he had a problem with the idea and unfortunately the name and associated imagery stuck ... scientists nowadays view it as a phase of rapid expansion and not an explosion.

Quote from: "Poetic_Absences"The thing is though that none of you can tell me where this nothing came from or what was before it.

Nor can you apart from some wishy washy claim that “God dun it!”

Quote from: "Poetic_Absences"Also you ignore many of the laws of physics in order to make this claim.

No, we recognise that there was no before (“before” being a time based concept and time being a property of our universe) ... as I understand it (and I'm no physicist) the usual laws of physics could not be expected to fully hold during the first few moments of the universe’s formation.

Quote from: "Poetic_Absences"So really this view is religious.

Unfortunately (for you) no for reasons already stated!

Quote from: "Poetic_Absences"My view says God and I will be honest I have no clue where He came from.

Nor have we LOL!

Quote from: "Poetic_Absences"So really evolution is RELIGION just as much as creation. So admit reality for once even though we all know the reason you push the evolution religion is really because you do not want anyone telling you what to do or not to do.

I see, so in reality all we are doing is rebelling against “God” so we can follow our vain and selfish ways yes? So, which “God” was it we are rebelling against again? I forget ... there are so many.

Quote from: "Poetic_Absences"That's really all I have to say. I will be praying for all of you and I sincerely hope that God opens your eyes.

And I hope your head gets better I really do!

Kyu

On the subject of Expelled, if you haven't seen it there's a witty ditty that was put together by the animation studio that worked on the movie.  

There's some argument about whether it's pro- or anti-evolution, I think it's poking fun at both sides and - very rarely for a creationist paid-for effort - is actually funny.  Many of the 'stars' will be familiar

Enjoy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaGgpGLxLQw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaGgpGLxLQw)

I loved the opening credits... not so hot after that!

My old-earth creationist friends ate it up. I sat in the theater having to fight the desire to shout in protest of their proof from incredulity and their lack of understanding of the scientific method.

The conversation after movie was pretty much me defending Dawkins and evolution and the whole of science vs everyone else, who apparently weren't well versed in the basics of evolution.

Quote from: "Arthur Dent"The conversation after movie was pretty much me defending Dawkins and evolution and the whole of science vs everyone else, who apparently weren't well versed in the basics of evolution.

I'll bet that was an unequal battle ... you versus several hundred scientific illiterates! I'd like to have been there.

Right now you have the advantage in that you actually have seen it and your opinion has the validity of experience. I've just started to download it off bittorent, I certainly wouldn't pay to go see it and I'll try and review it later ... amusingly it was classified under movies --> comedy.

I admit that people who opine (often virulently) without experience on some things do annoy me even if they are, ostensibly, on my side ... it happened with Gibson's "The Passion Of The Christ", a woman (and she wasn't alone in this kind of stance) came on the radio and criticised it (referring to it as "obscenely bloody and 'anti-Semitic'") yet it was clear she hadn't seen the film at all. I did so (granted at the expense of a local church seeking conversion from atheism) and, if you're interested, my review is on my archived my web site (just type "faith.is-a-geek.net" into your browser then click "Freethought" and it's under "Reviews", "Screen" ... apologies for the way the menu system works, it was an attempt to be flashy which arguably didn't work so good).

Kyu

I have managed only to see the trailer and don't expect that it will appear here in the UK so i will have to rely on a download sometime I suppose. Mind, I agree with others, the graler was rubbish.

Now for the benefit of Poetic_Absences who wrote

QuoteYou believe that many billions of years ago nothing exploded and created everything, ect. The thing is though that none of you can tell me where this nothing came from or what was before it. Also you ignore many of the laws of physics in order to make this claim.

the most recent New Scientist magazine, 22 nov 2008 contained an article by Lawrence Kraus, an eminient scientist in the Americas. Here is a link to the article. http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20026832.100-commentary-the-free-lunch-that-made-our-universe.html I rather think that it explains the above quotation quite well and would love to hear what Poetic_Absences has to say about it.  

(This is a site one has to log into to read the full article. If the above link doesn't work, please say so and i will paste the article into here. )

I used to respect Ben Stein, but not after this movie. I rank him as low as Richard Dawkins now.

Quote from: "Akwo"I used to respect Ben Stein, but not after this movie. I rank him as low as Richard Dawkins now.

Um... you rate RIchard Dawkins low?  Why?  He presents some very logical and correct arguments against the existence of god.  

Quote from: "rlrose328"Um... you rate RIchard Dawkins low?  Why?  He presents some very logical and correct arguments against the existence of god.  

I hate him because he's arrogant, pompous, and outspoken. He gives Atheism a bad name.

Quote from: "Akwo"

Quote from: "rlrose328"Um... you rate RIchard Dawkins low?  Why?  He presents some very logical and correct arguments against the existence of god.  

I hate him because he's arrogant, pompous, and outspoken. He gives Atheism a bad name.

I couldn't disagree more. Richard Dawkins is brilliant, well spoken, thoughtful and witty.  In interviews and debates he really thinks about the answers carefully that he hadn't previously considered.  He often presents newly formed hypotheses base on his vast knowledge of biology, sociology, psychology, astronomy, physics and religion.  These shoot from the hip hypotheses may not be spot-on, but they are logical and usually communicated well.  If he appears arrogant, I feel it reflects your own theistic beliefs and offense of its non existence.

Now, if you had said Christopher Hitchens instead, I could concede the arrogance and pompous behavior.  He is usually abrasive, but he's goddamned hilarious.  I love both of these guys!

Quote from: "DennisK"Richard Dawkins is brilliant

Brilliance is not punching at the air. He can't argue the existence of God, it's either God is or isn't.

Anyways, let's stay on topic. Did Expelled get good ratings?