Title: God's inertia
Post by: Eris on March 18, 2008, 10:48:40 PM
Post by: Eris on March 18, 2008, 10:48:40 PM
Here is a list of adjectives we often hear from monotheists:
Eternal: timeless
Omnipotent: all-powerful
Omniscient: all-knowing
Omnipresent: everywhere
We only need to look at one of these words to demonstrate how the god they worship doesn't need their worship. Eternity, being outside of time, means that there is no succession of events. This is one of two definitions of eternity, which I have chosen because it is precisely how theists justify god's omniscience and omnipresence. So instead of speaking of eternity as an endless timescale with no beginning or end, I will speak of it as timelessness. And so a being that exists in this eternity cannot move or change, because that would mean one event would follow another. It cannot create, think, speak, desire, etc. It has no will to impart to us humans. Therefore, it does not need our love, our prayers, our belief, or our service.
A study of the other three words leads us to this same conclusion, that god is eternal and therefore inert.
Eternal: timeless
Omnipotent: all-powerful
Omniscient: all-knowing
Omnipresent: everywhere
We only need to look at one of these words to demonstrate how the god they worship doesn't need their worship. Eternity, being outside of time, means that there is no succession of events. This is one of two definitions of eternity, which I have chosen because it is precisely how theists justify god's omniscience and omnipresence. So instead of speaking of eternity as an endless timescale with no beginning or end, I will speak of it as timelessness. And so a being that exists in this eternity cannot move or change, because that would mean one event would follow another. It cannot create, think, speak, desire, etc. It has no will to impart to us humans. Therefore, it does not need our love, our prayers, our belief, or our service.
A study of the other three words leads us to this same conclusion, that god is eternal and therefore inert.
Title: Re: God's inertia
Post by: McQ on March 18, 2008, 11:20:23 PM
Post by: McQ on March 18, 2008, 11:20:23 PM
Quote from: "Eris"Here is a list of adjectives we often hear from monotheists:
Eternal: timeless
Omnipotent: all-powerful
Omniscient: all-knowing
Omnipresent: everywhere
We only need to look at one of these words to demonstrate how the god they worship doesn't need their worship. Eternity, being outside of time, means that there is no succession of events. This is one of two definitions of eternity, which I have chosen because it is precisely how theists justify god's omniscience and omnipresence. So instead of speaking of eternity as an endless timescale with no beginning or end, I will speak of it as timelessness. And so a being that exists in this eternity cannot move or change, because that would mean one event would follow another. It cannot create, think, speak, desire, etc. It has no will to impart to us humans. Therefore, it does not need our love, our prayers, our belief, or our service.
A study of the other three words lead us to this same conclusion, that god is eternal and therefore inert.
I like this, Eris. It's not often that I see a wholly new viewpoint on this subject. Well done.
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Post by: MommaSquid on March 18, 2008, 11:46:36 PM
Post by: MommaSquid on March 18, 2008, 11:46:36 PM
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi89.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk227%2FMommaSquid%2Fapplause.gif&hash=1d83652c37835c8fc9a9736d0b0ae6c4a8692b34)
Wow! Way to go, Eris!
Wow! Way to go, Eris!
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Post by: Will on March 19, 2008, 12:20:55 AM
Post by: Will on March 19, 2008, 12:20:55 AM
Very clever. Welcome.
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Post by: tacoma_kyle on March 19, 2008, 07:18:19 AM
Post by: tacoma_kyle on March 19, 2008, 07:18:19 AM
How do you pronounce your name? I;m kinda baffles.
One thing I always got a chuckle outta (which can almost relate to the topic at hand [this just reminded me of what I am about to mention])...
One one of Marilyn Mansons tracks he says 'god is a number you cannot count to.'
Nothin too deep
, I just got some amusement out of it.
One thing I always got a chuckle outta (which can almost relate to the topic at hand [this just reminded me of what I am about to mention])...
One one of Marilyn Mansons tracks he says 'god is a number you cannot count to.'
Nothin too deep
, I just got some amusement out of it.
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Post by: SteveS on March 19, 2008, 02:13:02 PM
Post by: SteveS on March 19, 2008, 02:13:02 PM
Hey Eris - I agree that if we interpret "eternal" to mean "timeless" then all our conventional understanding of change and causality seem to go out the window. Well reasoned!
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Post by: winterbottom on March 20, 2008, 03:58:02 PM
Post by: winterbottom on March 20, 2008, 03:58:02 PM
Of course, a clever theist will use some slippery linguistic defense to make it all better. It's a need that defies the influence of logic.
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Post by: tacoma_kyle on March 21, 2008, 03:15:39 AM
Post by: tacoma_kyle on March 21, 2008, 03:15:39 AM
Like 'god works in mysteious ways?'
heh I hate that one. Has been repeated more times than god has failed to explain.
heh I hate that one. Has been repeated more times than god has failed to explain.
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Post by: winterbottom on March 21, 2008, 03:38:27 PM
Post by: winterbottom on March 21, 2008, 03:38:27 PM
Mysteries usually put me on edge. This god is so mysterious, yet so comforting. How is that accomplished?
Easy! When needed, anthropomorphize god as a paternal character who knows and wants what's best for his wicked children.
It's the same tactic used for interpreting the Bible. Everything is literally true until something doesn't make sense, then slip into figurative meaning. Believers are conditioned to overlook this convenient shift in modality.
Easy! When needed, anthropomorphize god as a paternal character who knows and wants what's best for his wicked children.
It's the same tactic used for interpreting the Bible. Everything is literally true until something doesn't make sense, then slip into figurative meaning. Believers are conditioned to overlook this convenient shift in modality.
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Post by: ShimShamSam on March 21, 2008, 08:51:44 PM
Post by: ShimShamSam on March 21, 2008, 08:51:44 PM
I agree with the logic of Eris, and i do beleive if god is all powerful, all seeing, all knowing etc etc he doesn't need our prayers and service, but I think there's a simpler way to look at it. I'd like to draw upon my knowledge of Carlinism fromt he comedian George Carlin, he said:
"I long time ago, god made up his plan for the universe, decided it was good plan, and put it into practice. And for hundreds of thousands of years the divine plan has been doing just fine. Then you come along and pray for something, well suppose what you want isn't in his plan, you want him to change his plan...just for you? And what if he doesn't give it to you, you just say it's god's will, well if it's gods will and he's gonna do what he wants anyway, why the fuck bother praying int he first place? Seems you should skip the praying and go right to god's will"
-George Carlin (Loosely paraphrased from memory)
"I long time ago, god made up his plan for the universe, decided it was good plan, and put it into practice. And for hundreds of thousands of years the divine plan has been doing just fine. Then you come along and pray for something, well suppose what you want isn't in his plan, you want him to change his plan...just for you? And what if he doesn't give it to you, you just say it's god's will, well if it's gods will and he's gonna do what he wants anyway, why the fuck bother praying int he first place? Seems you should skip the praying and go right to god's will"
-George Carlin (Loosely paraphrased from memory)
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Post by: winterbottom on March 22, 2008, 02:40:55 AM
Post by: winterbottom on March 22, 2008, 02:40:55 AM
Hey, Sam, I think Carlin mighta been a divinity student or even a graduate.
Is your avatar a Stratego game piece? You should know that two-thirds of your handle is the title of a new song by Imperial Teen.
I have very high regard for Eris' ideas. She introduced me to this forum and is without a doubt a prodigious talent.
Is your avatar a Stratego game piece? You should know that two-thirds of your handle is the title of a new song by Imperial Teen.
I have very high regard for Eris' ideas. She introduced me to this forum and is without a doubt a prodigious talent.
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Post by: ShimShamSam on March 22, 2008, 02:55:59 AM
Post by: ShimShamSam on March 22, 2008, 02:55:59 AM
aww hell yeah it's a Stratego piece, most kick ass board game ever. I'll never grow out of that game, and yes, I am the Spy