Happy Atheist Forum

OK, so it's no secret that all real Americans hate H***** Clin****.

j/k

But really, who in their right mind would vote for this Harpie? She has to be the most vile, evil (note the same letters in the words) politicians/humans EVER.

Please, for Darwin's sake, vote for Obama. Vote for Snoopy!!! Anyone but her!

Just my rant.

Go back to life.

 :lol:

Guessing you are not a fan.. As an Aussie I dont really understand the whole election process over there but I do believe that Obama is going to be the better choice.

I've been watching bits and pieces about this because I desperately want a democrat to win the next election, hopefully some of Bush's mistakes can be rectified. We had a change in government here in Oz recently and things are changing quite rapidly (for the better IMO).
So I would have thought any democrat would be a good thing, but not Hillary?
When I see that McCain guy and Huckabee, I worry for you Americans...very scary.

ps Hi fellow Aussie heavenandhell.

Quote from: "catwixen"I've been watching bits and pieces about this because I desperately want a democrat to win the next election, hopefully some of Bush's mistakes can be rectified. We had a change in government here in Oz recently and things are changing quite rapidly (for the better IMO).
So I would have thought any democrat would be a good thing, but not Hillary?
When I see that McCain guy and Huckabee, I worry for you Americans...very scary.

ps Hi fellow Aussie heavenandhell.

Huckabee? Can you imagine a world leader named "HUCKABEE"??? I'd rather believe in god. GOD!!!

Please. No. Not ever.


But I'll still take him before she-who-may-not-be-named.

Hil...Hillar....hillarrrr.....

I just cant do it...

What has Hillary Clinton actually done/said that's so darn dastardly? I'm curious because I know she's widely hated but I'm not entirely sure why (just because I don't watch enough about what goes on in American politics).

Quote from: "Mister Joy"What has Hillary Clinton actually done/said that's so darn dastardly? I'm curious because I know she's widely hated but I'm not entirely sure why (just because I don't watch enough about what goes on in American politics).

She has a vagina.

LOL, also she wanted to prohibit GTA because it's violent... what a bitch, how the hell am I supposed to kill anyone without actually doing it??? shit...

Hillary keeps saying that she will bring "35 years of experience" to the White House.  Experience in what?  She was a lawyer, the First Lady, and then she bought a seat in the Senate.  What kind of experience is she bragging about?   :roll:

Ron Paul for President!

QuoteShe has a vagina.

I think your pretty bang on the mark there.

QuoteHillary keeps saying that she will bring "35 years of experience" to the White House. Experience in what? She was a lawyer, the First Lady, and then she bought a seat in the Senate. What kind of experience is she bragging about?

I think she might be talking about the 35 years she spent as a lawyer, as the first lady and in the senate.

What kind of experience should someone running for president have?

Maybe running a failed baseball league or getting your daddy to put together small companies to run into the ground like your current president.

I'm a bigger fan of Obama for sure, but if Hillary were to win, I think the US would be better off than with another Bush (McCain).

Other than wanting to restrict violent video games in the same way x rated movies are restricted and backing down on her health plan due to pressurewhile a first lady and being nice enough not to throw Bill out on his ass...what has she done that is bad?

Quote from: "MommaSquid"Ron Paul for President!

Have you read this?:
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/articles/759 ... r-america/ (http://www.ronpaul2008.com/articles/759/christmas-in-secular-america/)

Quote from: "McQ"OK, so it's no secret that all real Americans hate H***** Clin****.

j/k

But really, who in their right mind would vote for this Harpie? She has to be the most vile, evil (note the same letters in the words) politicians/humans EVER.

Please, for Darwin's sake, vote for Obama. Vote for Snoopy!!! Anyone but her!

Just my rant.

Go back to life.

 :lol:

McQ I'm curious are you a christian  :?   I ask because every person who has told me they hate hillary is, so far, a christian.   I am beginning to wonder if that is coincidence or not.

All I ever hear from Obama is we want change.  Well what kind of change.  Of course change from asshat Bush but what's his definition of change or more accurately change for the better.  Not all change is for the better.  I wonder if the majority of people who say they hate hillary is due to the over kill of hate e-mails sent out to attack her when none were sent out about anyone else.

To all who questioned why I dislike Hillary Clinton. My opinion, based on her eight years as co-president and other time in the public eye, is that she is simply a horrible human being who will stop at almost nothing to get and hold onto power.

My opinion, to which I am entitled. My question to you all would be how you can overlook her obvious lack of fitness to be president and Commander-in-chief of the U.S.?

Look, I just dislike her, just the same way I dislike Bush Jr., Romney, David Duke, Madonna, Jerry Lewis, Mimes, Nixon, my former boss, country line dancing, and watermelon flavored candy.

It is not, as Court cynically chimed in, because she has a vagina. I do wish people would stop assuming that about people who dislike Hillary. It's cheap. High on my list of people I admire in history, most turn out to be....WAIT FOR IT!... women. I understand that they too, have or had, vaginas. Cleopatra, Corizon Aquino, Hatshepsut, Martina Navratilova, Benazir Bhutto, Geraldine Ferraro, Sandra Day O'Connor. Pretty sure they lacked a Y chromosome. Maybe not Martina, but that's a whole other topic.

And I can't imagine why anyone here would ask if I'm a christian. Do you read the forum or just post without looking first? Come on! LOL!

Oh, I also think many people with penises are horrible too. And lots of them are politicians.

So relax, and try to remember that people are allowed their opinions, ESPECIALLY when it comes to the political process.

Might I remind you all that Hillary Clinton voted for and supported the War in Iraq. Out of conscience, I could never vote for such a person. The war is one of the most serious moral questions of our time. Also, she is notorious for being in the pockets of big business. Basically Hillary is just another professional politician at work, another ruling-class goon that will do little to alter the status quo. Ho hum.

I don't like that *clap* *clap* *point* *point* thing she does.

I was honestly asking what else she did that was bad...I didn't really pay much attention to her until she officially decided to run for president.  I'm not a very political person.

Quote from: "McQ"To all who questioned why I dislike Hilary Clinton. My opinion, based on her eight years as co-president and other time in the public eye, is that she is simply a horrible human being who will stop at almost nothing to get and hold onto power.

My opinion, to which I am entitled. My question to you all would be how you can overlook her obvious lack of fitness to be president and Commander-in-chief of the U.S.?

Look, I just dislike her, just the same way I dislike Bush Jr., Romney, David Duke, Madonna, Jerry Lewis, Mimes, Nixon, my former boss, country line dancing, and watermelon flavored candy.

It is not, as Court cynically chimed in, because she has a vagina. I do wish people would stop assuming that about people who dislike Hilary. It's cheap. High on my list of people I admire in history, most turn out to be....WAIT FOR IT!... women. I understand that they too, have or had, vaginas. Cleopatra, Corizon Aquino, Hatshepsut, Martina Navratilova, Benazir Bhutto, Geraldine Ferraro, Sandra Day O'Connor. Pretty sure they lacked a Y chromosome. Maybe not Martina, but that's a whole other topic.

And I can't imagine why anyone here would ask if I'm a christian. Do you read the forum or just post without looking first? Come on! LOL!

Oh, I also think many people with penises are horrible too. And lots of them are politicians.

So relax, and try to remember that people are allowed their opinions, ESPECIALLY when it comes to the political process.

McQ no one said you aren't entitled to your opinion.  If/when someone disagrees with you or asks you why you have such and such opinion, gives their opinion right or wrong it doesn't mean they think you aren't entitled to your opinion.  

I asked you if you were a christian and you still haven't said if you are or not.   Now another question do you always expect members to look up your posts, read them, memorize them, get to know all about you before asking you a simple question?  Of course people and myself read the forum that doesn't mean I or anyone else specificially looks for yours.  

As far as Hillary stopping at nothing to hold onto power well then she's no different than any other politician.  They all want power and will do anything to get it that's why they go into politics especially for the Presidency.

High on my list of people I admire in history, most turn out to be....WAIT FOR IT!... women.

That's funny the way you said that.. um wrote it  :lol:    I'm sure the thought of a woman president scares the crap out of a lot of men but equally sure it does a lot of women too.   Maybe Hillary is right, maybe she's not.    I sometimes wonder if people think she's power hungry because she stayed with Bill even after what he did.  I don't know but  the thought has crossed my mind and I just wonder about that.  I don't think she stayed with him because she's power hungry.   I think it was much more personal between them and she knew IMO it was all a set up.

Anyway we all know you are entitled to your opinion just as much as everyone here is.  We may not all always agree but then that's life and how we learn from one another.     8)

Quote from: "cantthinkofaname"McQ no one said you aren't entitled to your opinion.  If/when someone disagrees with you or asks you why you have such and such opinion, gives their opinion right or wrong it doesn't mean they think you aren't entitled to your opinion.  

I asked you if you were a christian and you still haven't said if you are or not.   Now another question do you always expect members to look up your posts, read them, memorize them, get to know all about you before asking you a simple question?  Of course people and myself read the forum that doesn't mean I or anyone else specificially looks for yours.

Anyway we all know you are entitled to your opinion just as much as everyone here is.  We may not all always agree but then that's life and how we learn from one another.     8)

I'll reiterate. Read the forum, especially member introductions. That is just a good idea of every new member or even those just lurking the forum before joining. So to answer your second, condescending question, no I don't "expect members to look up your posts, read them, memorize them, get to know all about you before asking you a simple question?  Of course people and myself read the forum that doesn't mean I or anyone else specificially looks for yours."

But if you had that question, a quick look at my introductory post would have answered it, as well as at many of the almost 900 posts I have in here. That's called due diligence, it is what a reasonable person expects, and this is what you would have found:

...I am a former Roman Catholic, however have also been a member of Southern Baptist and Methodist Churches. Obviously do not hold those xtian beliefs any more.
To me, science and the scientific method are the key to getting to the truth of nature and the world in which we live. I have a skeptical personality, and believe in teaching critical thinking to kids and adults.

Next time you have a specific question, then yes, do your homework first. Don't make assumptions.

I can ask you the same question, cantthinkofaname. You never posted an introduction. I seem to recall your initial posts being about some videos that you were hawking, which many here thought were yours at first. But I never did see anything from you stating your background or positions. I finally found something just now, after going through your posts, where you mention that rational thought is the key to your positions. That was my due diligence.

If I seem defensive about a couple of people challenging my opinion on Hillary, it is because it seems that those doing so don't seem to have a clue about her except for what they hear in the current media frenzy. If you didn't live through her previous presidency, or her run for office, or her Whitewater debacle, or weren't old enough or cared enough to actually have read through her abysmal health plan, then you really don't know. You're just taking the word of the media version of historical revisionists.

And she is much more calculating, vindictive, and ethic-less than a lot of politicians out there. You're fooling yourself to think otherwise. She's like Nixon re-incarnate. He was a vicious bastard. That is well documented, and so is Hillary's past.

Those are things upon which my opinion of her is based.

There are much better, ethical people in office and running for office. And fortunately, we all have choices.

Quote from: "McQ"It is not, as Court cynically chimed in, because she has a vagina. I do wish people would stop assuming that about people who dislike Hillary. It's cheap. High on my list of people I admire in history, most turn out to be....WAIT FOR IT!... women. I understand that they too, have or had, vaginas. Cleopatra, Corizon Aquino, Hatshepsut, Martina Navratilova, Benazir Bhutto, Geraldine Ferraro, Sandra Day O'Connor. Pretty sure they lacked a Y chromosome. Maybe not Martina, but that's a whole other topic.

The question was why do most Americans hate Hillary Clinton, not you. The misogynistic hate that has followed her in this campaign has made it clear: I'm right. People, particularly the GOP, hate Hillary because she's a woman.

Quote from: "laetusatheos"I don't like that *clap* *clap* *point* *point* thing she does.

I was honestly asking what else she did that was bad...I didn't really pay much attention to her until she officially decided to run for president.  I'm not a very political person.

Her plan for Iraq is less ambitious (but a bit more realistic) than Obama's. She has a more conservative immigration policy than Obama.

Most of the complaints against her have everything to do with things that don't matter: her lack of divorce, her lack of emotion, her overabundance of emotion, her baking cookies, and her "bitchiness." Seriously.

Quote from: "laetusatheos"I don't like that *clap* *clap* *point* *point* thing she does.

I was honestly asking what else she did that was bad...I didn't really pay much attention to her until she officially decided to run for president.  I'm not a very political person.

It's ok, I understand, laetus. What scares me is that so many people don't know, or don't care because they want soooo much for her to be president because she's a woman. We already had better choices for women presidents, but we blew it each time and didn't put them up there. Shirley Chisholm, Ellen McCormack, Pat Schroeder, and more. Hell, even Elizabeth Dole would be a much better choice.

Her checkered past of things like, Whitewater, Rose Law Firm missing billing records (Filegate), Travelgate, complete disdain of the US Military (auotmatically discredits her as CIC), staying with her idiot cheating husband in order to secure her own political future (those who said that we were just being cynical of this back in 1998, do you need any more proof than her run for the presidency now?). Just a few little items that make me go, "Yuck!"

And the fact that as a non-elected official, she tried to shove a bloated government healthcare system down our throats. It was a total disaster of a system, but she tried bullying it through anyway.

What I find interesting with her is that otherwise rational people (like atheists, who reject the fantasy world of gods and supernatural) seem to drop their baloney detection kits when talking about her. there's so much baloney piled up around her you can smell it miles away! LOL!

Quote from: "Court"The question was why do most Americans hate Hillary Clinton, not you. The misogynistic hate that has followed her in this campaign has made it clear: I'm right. People, particularly the GOP, hate Hillary because she's a woman.

Can you please show me where that was the question?

A disclaimer, by the way. Both the title of the thread and the subtitle refer only to Hillary's political life, and my desire to see the Clinton's leave the national political spotlight.

It is not, and was not, ever meant literally.  

Wanted to be clear on that count. Really just wanted to express myself in a slightly over-the-top manner.

I'm also very aware, in case it comes up, that many people, myself included, are so ready for change in Washington, that my judgment on Obama might be biased. I try to make sure that I'm not backing him because of a cult of personality, but because he represents a freshness that this country needs and positive outlook and change.

If you go to your public library and look at the books on the Clintons (by respectable people, not conspiracy theorists), it will give you a clue to the dishonesty, lack of character, skill with lying and cover-ups...  I think the dislike began when Hillary hit the ground running as a "co-president."  We didn't elect hillary, we elected her husband.  But there she was, spewing her agenda everywhere.  Just because she's a lawyer doesn't make her qualified to actively work with her husband in HIS presidency.  I'm a nurse and have a bachelor's degree in biology, so I know a lot about medicine.  That doesn't qualify me to teach in medical school.

When I embraced my deconversion and began to enjoy my freedom to read and think what I want, I did some research into Hillary.  Part of me was thrilled to have an opportunity to support a woman candidate (on the surface, she looks brilliant!)  Her website is flawless, and her staff is very skilled with influence and spinning the issues.  I was taken in at first.  But I had to consider the fact that my husband is a very intelligent man, and he despises her.  He's not the type to dislike someone based on emotion.  Before I was willing to ask him, I went to the library and did some research.  There was a wealth of information that showed a woman who was kind, motherly, and supportive of her husband ONLY in the view of the public.  The facts presented gave a different picture.  The way she treated her daughter, putting up with a adulterous husband to keep up the facade that she was a self-sacrificing, loving wife... This is more of a catty thing, but I was disgusted by the fact that instead of adding to the artwork of the White House (as is the custom), Hillary took a lot with her when they left office.

This whole election has me cynical right now.    Obama appears to be the better of the two, but he's only served in the Senate for two years!  I would hope that our president would have more experience with foreign policy, etc, etc.  But perhaps that's his appeal?  He might not keep the appalling status quo of our government.  Hmmm.  And I don't give a rat's ass if he used or was addicted to cocaine.  I've known a lot of people in recovery, and they are the strongest people I know.  The honesty required to keep clean is admirable.  

As a last word on Hillary, she's too scripted and conniving.  Something about her just rubs me the wrong way, and I just don't find her credible.

I find it rather telling that if one speaks ill of Hillary, one is labeled a misogynist, or that one is afraid of her vagina, or that one is scared to death of a woman president.

I suppose one does not have to be religious to be an irrational evangelical.

Tell me, what is the difference between these two hypothetical responses to a statement:

"I don't believe in god."
"That's because you hate God, and want to live a sinful life!"

"I don't like Hillary."
"That's because you're afraid to have a woman president!"

Not much difference to my eye.

It is possible to not like someone based on their views/scandals/failed policies and not on their sex.

McQ had a pretty good list of women I would have voted for: "Shirley Chisholm, Ellen McCormack, Pat Schroeder, and more. Hell, even Elizabeth Dole would be a much better choice."

I think it's about time we had a woman president. Just not Hillary.

Flame me all you wish, but that is my opinion, and I'm sticking to it.

Quote from: "Sophie"If you go to your public library and look at the books on the Clintons (by respectable people, not conspiracy theorists), it will give you a clue to the dishonesty, lack of character, skill with lying and cover-ups...  I think the dislike began when Hillary hit the ground running as a "co-president."  We didn't elect hillary, we elected her husband.  But there she was, spewing her agenda everywhere.  Just because she's a lawyer doesn't make her qualified to actively work with her husband in HIS presidency.  I'm a nurse and have a bachelor's degree in biology, so I know a lot about medicine.  That doesn't qualify me to teach in medical school.

When I embraced my deconversion and began to enjoy my freedom to read and think what I want, I did some research into Hillary.  Part of me was thrilled to have an opportunity to support a woman candidate (on the surface, she looks brilliant!)  Her website is flawless, and her staff is very skilled with influence and spinning the issues.  I was taken in at first.  But I had to consider the fact that my husband is a very intelligent man, and he despises her.  He's not the type to dislike someone based on emotion.  Before I was willing to ask him, I went to the library and did some research.  There was a wealth of information that showed a woman who was kind, motherly, and supportive of her husband ONLY in the view of the public.  The facts presented gave a different picture.  The way she treated her daughter, putting up with a adulterous husband to keep up the facade that she was a self-sacrificing, loving wife... This is more of a catty thing, but I was disgusted by the fact that instead of adding to the artwork of the White House (as is the custom), Hillary took a lot with her when they left office.

As a last word on Hillary, she's too scripted and conniving.  Something about her just rubs me the wrong way, and I just don't find her credible.

Yep, reading the stuff you didn't get to see a whole lot of in the news during that time makes you realize how much she got away with. Bill too. They were coated in Teflon, because nothing stuck to them. LOL!

Quote from: "laetusatheos"Have you read this?:
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/articles/759 ... r-america/ (http://www.ronpaul2008.com/articles/759/christmas-in-secular-america/)

Yeah, I know about Ron Paul's belief that religion is a good thing.  But since I agree with most of his political ideas, I have to ignore the christian stuff.

With the other candidates you get bad politics and crappy religion, too.  I can't vote for Hillary because she seems to have no morals; I can't vote for Obama because I don't think this country is ready for a black man with a funny name to be president; and I can't vote for McCain because he doesn't seem to have all of his marbles.  So, yes, I'll be wasting my vote on Ron Paul (who doesn't have a chance in hell of winning the election).

Ain't democracy grand?

Quote from: "McQ"

Quote from: "cantthinkofaname"McQ no one said you aren't entitled to your opinion.  If/when someone disagrees with you or asks you why you have such and such opinion, gives their opinion right or wrong it doesn't mean they think you aren't entitled to your opinion.  

I asked you if you were a christian and you still haven't said if you are or not.   Now another question do you always expect members to look up your posts, read them, memorize them, get to know all about you before asking you a simple question?  Of course people and myself read the forum that doesn't mean I or anyone else specificially looks for yours.

Anyway we all know you are entitled to your opinion just as much as everyone here is.  We may not all always agree but then that's life and how we learn from one another.     8)

QuoteI'll reiterate. Read the forum, especially member introductions. That is just a good idea of every new member or even those just lurking the forum before joining. So to answer your second, condescending question, no I don't "expect members to look up your posts, read them, memorize them, get to know all about you before asking you a simple question?  Of course people and myself read the forum that doesn't mean I or anyone else specificially looks for yours."

Wow I really struck a nerve with you.  That wasn't my intention.  Most people would have answered yes or no and then maybe said something like hey check out my introduction and you can get to know me better and post one of your own.  Not you no you demand it then spout out your own condescending attitude.  This is the only atheist forum I have found where an introduction is a big deal.  Ok I went into the introduction posts and read yours and you did say you no longer believe all the religious crap.  If I were to read all introductions of every person I wanted to post to I wouldn't get much time to post anything LOL.

QuoteBut if you had that question, a quick look at my introductory post would have answered it, as well as at many of the almost 900 posts I have in here. That's called due diligence, it is what a reasonable person expects, and this is what you would have found:

It's what you expect.    I have been to other forums where a members didn't post an introduction or reead introductions of the people they posted to and there was not one single problem with it.  No one complained, no one had any problem with answering a simple question and no one expected everyone to look up a member in the introduction post just to ask a question or post.  People just simply answered the question and if they had an introduction posted they kindly let them know they could read up on their introductin to get to know them.  

Quote...I am a former Roman Catholic, however have also been a member of Southern Baptist and Methodist Churches. Obviously do not hold those xtian beliefs any more.
To me, science and the scientific method are the key to getting to the truth of nature and the world in which we live. I have a skeptical personality, and believe in teaching critical thinking to kids and adults.

Now was that so hard for you to do that you couldn't simply have posted this the first time (not a real question for you to answer) and then refer me to your introduction post since it's so important to you.

QuoteNext time you have a specific question, then yes, do your homework first. Don't make assumptions.

Are you for real.  You like giving orders.  Asking a question is not making assumptions.  You're the one who made assumptions not me.  All I did was ask a question that is not making an assumption.  I really struck a nerve by asking if you are a christian I wonder why.   Next time I have a question I will ask it.

QuoteI can ask you the same question, cantthinkofaname. You never posted an introduction. I seem to recall your initial posts being about some videos that you were hawking, which many here thought were yours at first. But I never did see anything from you stating your background or positions. I finally found something just now, after going through your posts, where you mention that rational thought is the key to your positions. That was my due diligence.

Of course you can ask me the same question if I posted an introduction or not.  I will answer it now no I am not a christian I am an atheist.  If I had posted an introduction I would now say hey McQ you can check out my introduction.  I waited to do that because I am mostly a private person and I wasn't ready to post before lurking, checking out other members posts first.  Your post was interesting to me so I posted to you before doing an introduction.  Sheesh such a big deal over posting a question.  I posted before that post about the two young boys on youtube.  I don't remember what then name I had then though so I re-registered with this name.  I can see your thinking it was the initial post.  I see now what your due diligence is to you and an introduction is a good idea so people can get to know each other first.  

I'm not so sure hawking is the right description for my sharing those videos.  I saw them on youtube, I liked that the younger generation is speaking out, I liked that the ateist community (public) was finally being given an chance to be heard and ask questions pertaining to atheists.  I like the fact that no money was asked for in donations or that it wasn't something where anyone would benefit other than atheists and non atheists could boice thier opinion and ask the politicians questions.  Politicians never think of atheists no only what the religious want.   I can understand members questioning if I they were my videos and I like that they called me on it.  I answered those questions and let everyone know I can't take credit for those youtube videos.    That video was done by young men or kids if you see them that way it wasn't that big of a deal to be real suspicious about, sheesh it's youtube giving people a chance to get involved, voice their opinion if they choose to not selling a product to make a profit.

QuoteIf I seem defensive about a couple of people challenging my opinion on Hillary, it is because it seems that those doing so don't seem to have a clue about her except for what they hear in the current media frenzy. If you didn't live through her previous presidency, or her run for office, or her Whitewater debacle, or weren't old enough or cared enough to actually have read through her abysmal health plan, then you really don't know. You're just taking the word of the media version of historical revisionists.

And she is much more calculating, vindictive, and ethic-less than a lot of politicians out there. You're fooling yourself to think otherwise. She's like Nixon re-incarnate. He was a vicious bastard. That is well documented, and so is Hillary's past.

Those are things upon which my opinion of her is based.

There are much better, ethical people in office and running for office. And fortunately, we all have choices.

I truthfully don't think any of them are worth voting for.  I see all politicians this way.  I will still vote and make sure I know as much as possible about both candidates.  They all have their dirty little secrets.  You are right about Hillary and whitewater but I still question all the other attacks on her, I don't mean what you say about her when I say that.  I was and am talking about attacks on her in general from so many people who don't get right down to saying exactly what they don't like about her.  The closest I have come to before these posts and getting more involved with this forum was her not following through with her 'healthcare for everyone' idiocy.   But then again I was told well the Senate didn't back her up and the Republicans have the majority so how can anyone expect her to do anything.   Sheesh I couldn't get a real straight answer.

I cut slack on anyone too young to know or just not that up on politics because being too young is not their fault and sometimes people have more important things to take care of first like taking care of a sick parent.  I know that was me and it was hard to go through more than a few times.  I still tried to keep up on the news.  But as you say McQ the media doesn't always tell us everything and historical revisionists - that is so true.  

Once they start questioning it's the perfect opportunity to educate them, point them in the right direction.

Quote from: "Court"

Quote from: "laetusatheos"I don't like that *clap* *clap* *point* *point* thing she does.

I was honestly asking what else she did that was bad...I didn't really pay much attention to her until she officially decided to run for president.  I'm not a very political person.

Her plan for Iraq is less ambitious (but a bit more realistic) than Obama's. She has a more conservative immigration policy than Obama.

Most of the complaints against her have everything to do with things that don't matter: her lack of divorce, her lack of emotion, her overabundance of emotion, her baking cookies, and her "bitchiness." Seriously.

I noticed that too and that's why I question why people don't like her so I can know why they say they don' t like her.   Don't forget the complaints about how she looks like her mother.  Seriously yeah.

Quote from: "MommaSquid"

Quote from: "laetusatheos"Have you read this?:
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/articles/759 ... r-america/ (http://www.ronpaul2008.com/articles/759/christmas-in-secular-america/)

Yeah, I know about Ron Paul's belief that religion is a good thing.  But since I agree with most of his political ideas, I have to ignore the christian stuff.

With the other candidates you get bad politics and crappy religion, too.  I can't vote for Hillary because she seems to have no morals; I can't vote for Obama because I don't think this country is ready for a black man with a funny name to be president; and I can't vote for McCain because he doesn't seem to have all of his marbles.  So, yes, I'll be wasting my vote on Ron Paul (who doesn't have a chance in hell of winning the election).

Ain't democracy grand?

LOL! You put that well, Momma. Tough situation again for the voters. Like South Park and trying to decide between a Turd Sandwich and a Giant Douche. They don't make it easy on us.

Quote from: "pjkeeley"Might I remind you all that Hillary Clinton voted for and supported the War in Iraq. Out of conscience, I could never vote for such a person. The war is one of the most serious moral questions of our time. Also, she is notorious for being in the pockets of big business. Basically Hillary is just another professional politician at work, another ruling-class goon that will do little to alter the status quo. Ho hum.

This is exactly how it is despite her proclamation that she will not allow her corporate sponsors to influence her decisions where they are concerned.  :bs:  

You don't bring about serious change in Washington by allowing the insiders like Hillary to continue the long line of insider procession to the throne.  Besides her feeling entitled (as does McCain) to be CiC, I just don't think major change is going to happen if she becomes CiC. Congress is not going to rubberstamp everything she sends up to the Hill.  Universal health care through a single-payer system is going to be DOA just like it was the first time she tried it.   She and Obama are grossly underestimating the power of the healthcare-industrial complex, the economic cost, and the resistance of people who already have good coverage (like me).   It ain't happenin!

I'm beginning to think Obama may be the better choice simply from the standpoint that he lacks all of the insider experience which so easily taints most politicians.  And let's hope if he is elected, he doesn't follow through on his foreign policy naivety and meet with all the petty foreign dictators as he has mentioned on several occasions.  Chavez, Morales, Castro, Ahmadine-jihad....can you imagine what a disaster that would be?

Where is Teddy Roosevelt when you need him?

Well frankly..anyone that supports that war needs to NOT sit in a seat of power.  I dont believe that it should have been made into the situation that is now.  

Looks like she is going to lose it anyway...  Obama was a given once he got the Kennedy nod of approval.

Quote from: "pjkeeley"Might I remind you all that Hillary Clinton voted for and supported the War in Iraq. Out of conscience, I could never vote for such a person. The war is one of the most serious moral questions of our time. Also, she is notorious for being in the pockets of big business. Basically Hillary is just another professional politician at work, another ruling-class goon that will do little to alter the status quo. Ho hum.

I agree with you whole heartedly on your views on the Iraq invasion, but it is my understanding that the vote was not to go to war but a vote to give the president the right to declare war.

Bush swore on record that war would be a last resort. Most in the senate voted to give Bush the right to declare war as a bargaining chip against Saddam.

Of course none were aware at the time that all the allegations against Saddam were bogus.

One reason that lots of Americans seem to hate Hillary is because while she was 1st lady, she spearheaded a campaign for a national universal healthcare system for the US. Of course lobbyists for the pharmaceutical industry unleashed their Republican dogs on her and a smear campaign began. It is typically residents of the US that have an irrational distaste for Hillary because the corporate media inundates them with anti-Hillary propaganda. The saturation is such that people now hate her because of the color of dress she might have on.

Notice that usually people outside the US don't have so much of an issue with her. This is because they are not subject to the same anti-Hillary onslaughts as US residents.

Also many women hate her because she forgave Bill. apparently they see her as having no backbone because of this. I find this resentment especially ironic among christians, what with forgiveness being an alleged cornerstone of their beliefs an all.

QuoteAin't democracy grand?

Those are some really sour grapes. I've noticed this is pretty typical sentiment among right wing people when they can't have their way.

Maybe it's the will of the majority that you find objectionable since it is through majority votes that the people in the running are where they are.

Your contempt for democracy is disturbing.

QuoteAlso many women hate her because she forgave Bill. apparently they see her as having no backbone because of this. I find this resentment especially ironic among christians, what with forgiveness being an alleged cornerstone of their beliefs an all.

I think women hate her because she leveraged her forgiveness for political gain.  Now she may get some sympathy votes for standing by her man.  Thanks Tammy Wynette!

Quote from: "Smarmy Of One"Those are some really sour grapes. I've noticed this is pretty typical sentiment among right wing people when they can't have their way.

Maybe it's the will of the majority that you find objectionable since it is through majority votes that the people in the running are where they are.

Your contempt for democracy is disturbing.

  :lol:

Really, Smarmy, you made me laugh out loud!

Can I help it if the majority is a bunch of idiots?  Just because the majority wants something and gets it doesn't make it a good thing.  And it doesn't make it right.  

People are generally sheep to be lead.  I don't classify myself that way.  If you find that disturbing, so be it.

Oh, and Hillary should be reviled for what she says and does, not for what other people (lobbyists included) say about her.  Her own words and actions speak volumes.

Although Obama has been picking up steam, Clinton is still a possibility (obviously).  On the other side, we know it's almost sure that it's McCain.  I went to a bookstore yesterday and looked through their election display books.  The main one on McCain was "The Faith of My Fathers."  The title, along with the write-up on the back, were quite disturbing for obvious reasons.  The thing that grabbed me, though, was that he chose to not be traded out of Hanoi (I think that's where he was a POW) in a self-sacrificing move.  It talked about his faith, and how that's what got him through the torture, etc.  Ugh.  Sure, I respect him for what he went through and the service he gave for our country.  HOWEVER - it's just the sick motivation of religion that would make a person give up an opportunity to escape possible martyrdom.  WTF?  According to what I read, he wasn't taking someone else's place, it was just some sort of exchange between the military...  I should have probably taken more note of what exactly it was.  I don't think I would have gotten that much of a negative vibe if it had been him taking someone else's place.  That would have been heroic, etc, but this just seemed naive and sad.

Considering that McCain woult put a religious conservative judge on the Supreme Court (one is about to retire), the state/church separation would most likely crumble.  NOT good.  I liked McCain for financial issues, but I'm leaning back to the left.  So it's between Obama and Clinton.  I've read and spread a lot of vicious things about her - in all fairness, it's worth investigating a little further.  SO, I bought an unofficial biography of Hillary.  We'll see if I can make it through the whole thing without throwing the BS flag.  I'm going to research Obama, too - there's just so much mud being slung by everyone.  It's hard to know what's true.  No surprise there.

Quote from: "Sophie"The thing that grabbed me, though, was that he chose to not be traded out of Hanoi (I think that's where he was a POW) in a self-sacrificing move.  It talked about his faith, and how that's what got him through the torture, etc.  Ugh.  Sure, I respect him for what he went through and the service he gave for our country.  HOWEVER - it's just the sick motivation of religion that would make a person give up an opportunity to escape possible martyrdom.  WTF?  According to what I read, he wasn't taking someone else's place, it was just some sort of exchange between the military...  I should have probably taken more note of what exactly it was.  I don't think I would have gotten that much of a negative vibe if it had been him taking someone else's place.  That would have been heroic, etc, but this just seemed naive and sad.

Not quite. His father was an admiral, so they would have let him go had he admitted to war crimes. He refused.

The other reason he didn't take the deal is because he had buddies in the Hilton with him. He didn't think it would be fair for him to leave and for them to have to stay.

It's more a military brotherhood thing than any sort of religious thing. He wasn't doing it for praise, acclaim, hero status or anything like that.

That's how we are trained. Don't leave a brother behind, don't accept special favor from the enemy, don't make silly "I am a war criminal videos".

It's not something I expect civilians to understand. I would like to think that I would have behaved the same way had I been in his position.

QuoteHer own words and actions speak volumes.

And yet, no one has pointed out any specific words and actions.

I'm glad I was able to make you laugh.

Sorry I miss read you. It's not a contempt for democracy so much as contempt for humanity in general.

Quote from: "Smarmy_of_one"And yet, no one has pointed out any specific words and actions.

This is a shame. I've been reading this with interest in the hope that some quotes would pop up, just because I really enjoy cringing at what politicians have to say. The feeling that I get when suppressed hatred for mankind is provoked to the surface so effortlessly by the words of one person is... pure ecstasy. :lol:

So far though, the health plan has been mentioned... is Hillary trying to push for nationalised health care again? If so, I'm decidedly right wing economically and despite this I can't disagree with her. :? I need my fix dammit.

Quote from: "Smarmy Of One"

QuoteHer own words and actions speak volumes.

And yet, no one has pointed out any specific words and actions.

I don't have the desire or the time to go into details.  You can do your own research here:

http://www.ontheissues.org/Senate/Hillary_Clinton.htm (http://www.ontheissues.org/Senate/Hillary_Clinton.htm)

Quote from: "Smarmy Of One"Sorry I miss read you. It's not a contempt for democracy so much as contempt for humanity in general.

Pretty much.  

QuoteAnd yet, no one has pointed out any specific words and actions.

I did, have you read or acknowledged the points I raised for a start?

QuoteI did, have you read or acknowledged the points I raised for a start?

Yes, and I responded here:

QuoteI agree with you whole heartedly on your views on the Iraq invasion, but it is my understanding that the vote was not to go to war but a vote to give the president the right to declare war.

Bush swore on record that war would be a last resort. Most in the senate voted to give Bush the right to declare war as a bargaining chip against Saddam.

Of course none were aware at the time that all the allegations against Saddam were bogus.

As far as being in the pockets of big business, that kind of doesn't count since ALL politicians are in someone's pockets.

One of the really innovative things that John Dean tried to start was accepting campaign donations from the general public over the internet. even as much as a dollar or two. He made a genuine effort to keep big business out of his campaign.

I am actually an Obama supporter. I think he is a charismatic man of vision who will be able to bring America into the 21st century.

The only problem I have with Hillary, is that she is more of an old school politician. I think Obama will bring new ideas and new energy that is greatly needed to the White House. I find myself defending her because I think that most of the allegations against her are unfounded or over trumped.

I'm voting for Hillary & I'm a woman. Want to know WHY I'm voting for her?

Cuz she's pretty.

The alternative isn't better.  Sorry to further offend MikeyV (glad to know the specifics, thanks), but McCain's stance on war has many people rethinking their support for his campaign.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZCISY40qns (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZCISY40qns)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-zoPgv_ ... re=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-zoPgv_nYg&feature=related)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gwqEneB ... re=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gwqEneBKUs&feature=related)

Ha, about Clinton's "experience", I was watching Stewart  and he cracked this one, I thought it was rather good.

"CLINTON has more experience! Doing what, you may ask? Why, more experience running around saying she has experience."

And you'd think that the person you want to change Washington would be someone who'd like to disassociate themselves with DC...

Quote. . . but McCain's stance on war has many people rethinking their support for his campaign.

He's kind of Bush Part II.