Happy Atheist Forum

i just got done reading 90 minutes in heaven by don piper because a very close person to me (a Christian) wanted me to check it out...has anyone else read this...i wasn't very impressed with it, just your typical near death experience deal....actually it sounded more like a mushroom trip to me. does anyone have any comments on the book, or why so many people in these situations claim to have seen heaven

Well having both died and taken mushrooms... maybe it's time for my memoirs?

Is this book really worth it for someone who doesn't believe in fantasy after death?

I haven't read the book, but there was a discussion here on another thread that mentioned near-death experiences.  The Air Force can induce these experiences in people that are not dying: they subject them to G-force until they pass out (in that spinning chair thingy they've got).  When they come to they report having experiences that are identical to near-death experiences.

Since these experiences can be induced by physical forces, and can be reliably recreated, I have trouble believing they are anything other than physiological affects on a living brain.  I don't think they're tastes of any afterlife.

So - why do these people claim to have seen heaven?  They don't understand the experience they're subjected to and they very very badly want to see heaven.  So they think they do.

Anyway - why do they always presume they're seeing heaven?  How come nobody comes to and claims they got a glimpse of hell?  Or purgatory?  Or Elysium?

You brain does some amazing things if you really think about it. Without the human brain, we wouldn't be talking right now on so many levels. No written language, no keys to punch in said language, no computer, no internet, no customer support...nothing.

So does it shock me that the human brain could do such a thing? Nope.

Quote from: "SteveS"Anyway - why do they always presume they're seeing heaven?  How come nobody comes to and claims they got a glimpse of hell?  Or purgatory?  Or Elysium?

A long time ago (back when I was still a Christian) I remember watching a show on discovery (or a similar station) about near death experiences.  One of the women 'died' on the operating table and saw what she described as hell before being brought back to consciousness.

Here are some 'Hell experiences'. Talk about cheese:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCiY21d807M

I agree with SteveS, the brain was probably just firing off.

But, I'd rather read Willravel's mushroom memoirs than this person's heavenly encounter--probably more entertaining. (I only tried shrooms once, it took too long to come back down and I've been chicken ever since. There was a clarifying moment though when I thought I saw a lamp come on and had a mind-blowing epiphany after a few minutes of staring that, indeed, the light had turned on.)

Quote from: "laetusatheos"A long time ago (back when I was still a Christian) I remember watching a show on discovery (or a similar station) about near death experiences. One of the women 'died' on the operating table and saw what she described as hell before being brought back to consciousness.

Wow.  So - I guess I'm wrong - sometimes people think they see hell.  Somehow, that's even more twisted then thinking you're seeing heaven.

Quote from: "SteveS"

Quote from: "laetusatheos"A long time ago (back when I was still a Christian) I remember watching a show on discovery (or a similar station) about near death experiences. One of the women 'died' on the operating table and saw what she described as hell before being brought back to consciousness.

Hmmmm.....hell.....she was probably in Houston around August of 1999....that summer was truly hellaciously hot!  

Sleeper, I've read the  book, and to be hones wth you NDE or Near Death Experiences are real.  I've had a friend close to me that is or should I say was an atheist almost die and come out of it with such an experience.  I personally don't study adult NDE because they have been exposed to the outside world and may be doin this for the publicity.  There are books on chilldrens NDE, by a noted atheist Doctor, and I think this would help you alot.  It shocked the doctor, myself, and I;m sure it would you.  It is called Childens near-death experiences.

wayjust1 - I don't think anybody is contending that Near Death Experiences aren't real.  I think we're contending that they aren't occurring in your brain while you're dead, but rather while you're still alive, and they aren't glimpses of the afterlife.

So - now you've "known" an ex-atheist who you lead us to believe changed because of a near-death experience.  You also say you are shocked by the children's experience, as was the alleged "atheist doctor".  And - you can't find anything wrong with the bible.

How long are you going to keep up this "I'm really an atheist" charade?  How can you expect anyone (especially atheists,  :wink: ) to believe that?

As a Deist I do believe in an afterlife. However, I think that near death experiences aren't glimpses into heaven but, instead the amazing power of the mind and the sub-conscious at work. I find it also intriguing that the only recorded cases that I've heard, at least, come from christians. I've never heard of a person from any other religion talk about seeing a glimpse of heaven. Also, the "glimpses" that people talk about seeing are nearly identical to the biblical version of heaven. This leads me to believe that near death experiences are just a sub-conscience created illusion. Christians go through their whole life being taught what heaven looks like. Over, a certain amount of time such visions of heaven are stored at a sub-conscious level. Then, during near death experiences the conscious and the subconscious are seperated. Naturally, when the person is in a subcoscious state these teachings about heaven that have been stored up are released and thus, forms their visions of heaven. This is only my opinon mind you, but I think that it is a plausible explanation for this phenomenon.

Quote from: "rational liberal"Naturally, when the person is in a subcoscious state these teachings about heaven that have been stored up are released and thus, forms their visions of heaven. This is only my opinon mind you, but I think that it is a plausible explanation for this phenomenon.

Yeah, I agree - I see this the same way.

Just dreams. Why doesn't anyone "come back" with any useful infomation?

I read about a nurse injecting several of her patients (with ketamine?)  to induce NDE's

hi im new in this board so laetusatheos (sorry if i spelled your sn wrong)
 

QuoteA long time ago (back when I was still a Christian)

you said you used to be a christian, what made you an atheist ?

Quote from: "kimmance"But, I'd rather read Willravel's mushroom memoirs than this person's heavenly encounter--probably more entertaining. (I only tried shrooms once, it took too long to come back down and I've been chicken ever since. There was a clarifying moment though when I thought I saw a lamp come on and had a mind-blowing epiphany after a few minutes of staring that, indeed, the light had turned on.)

Dunno how I missed this. Ask and you shall receive!

I started experimenting with conscious-altering substances when I was around 13. On a particularly warm day, I was sold 1 cap of a psychedelic mushroom from a friend of mine who grew organic illegal substances (cannabis and such). He mentioned that I should be home without my parents and probably with someone else who had taken mushrooms before, who could keep an eye on me. I was good advice.

 I asked over a friend, and she was more than happy to oblige because of I had a decent computer with games. Duke Nukem 3D was really popular at the time. Anyway, I learned an incredibly valuable lesson this particular day: psychedelic compounds and fast and bloody video games can be a somewhat disconcerting combination. At first, it was just an odd feeling; difficult to describe. It was different. Then things became quite a bit more different. Colorful, at first. Like watching the Speed Racer movie. Then things changed shapes a bit. I was in a room near our baby grand piano, which proceeded to melt right in front of me. I would assume that you're average person, upon seeing a piano melt, would simply stare. My reaction was more severe. I ran at the piano and tried to catch the drips and put them back in place, only to have them go through my hands. I loved and still love this piano very much, and was having a bit of an anxiety attack at it's apparent destruction. Fortunately, my friend was able to calm me down again.

It had been about 10 minutes when I had my second "freak-out", which was a result of trying to play Duke Nukem on shrooms. First off, let me just tell you that playing Duke Nukem while on psychedelic mushrooms puts even modern games to shame. I've played Doom 3 and the recent Halo games, but this was like entering the computer. Unfortunately, the wonder didn't last. As you may or may not know, Duke Nukem relies on startling one with sudden attacks from foes. This didn't go over well. It took only one alien to put me in the corner, wide eyed and paranoid.

It was the first and last time I ate mushrooms.

Quote from: "kels"hi im new in this board so laetusatheos (sorry if i spelled your sn wrong)
 

QuoteA long time ago (back when I was still a Christian)

you said you used to be a christian, what made you an atheist ?

I'll post my answer in your intro thread.

You had better read Bill Weise.

Quote23 Minutes in Hell by  Bill Weise
Bill Wiese saw the searing flames of hell, felt total isolation, and experienced the putrid and rotting stench, deafening screams of agony, terrorizing demons, and finally, the strong hand of God lifting him out of the pit.
 "Tell them I am coming very, very soon!"
Wiese’s visit to the devil’s lair lasted just twenty-three minutes, but he returned with vivid details etched in his memory. Since this life-changing ordeal, he has spent the last seven years studying the Scriptures to find answers and has listed more than 150 Bible verses referencing hell.

Everyone is curious about the afterlife, and now Wiese shares his insights to commonly asked questions such as:
* Is hell a literal burning place?
* Where is hell?
* Do you have a body in hell?
* Are there Degrees of punishment in hell?
* Are there children in hell?
* Can Demons torment people in hell?
* Can "good" people go to hell?
"Even if you don’t believe my story, I hope you will believe the Scriptures and avoid hell just the same."