This forum could be the one for me. I have been an atheist for a long time now...I don't remember deciding one day that to become an atheist (no visions, lights from the heavens or angels required) but it was a gradual thing that happened over a long period of time. The more I learn and experience the more it seemed right to be a non-believer....religion just adds an unnecessary complication to my life that I don't need.
I have recently however, come to the realisation that I choose to be with other atheists and freethinkers and find it increasingly difficult to interact with believers. When someone says "god bless you" or that they will pray for me, the hair on the back of my neck prickles and I have to stop myself from replying sarcastically. I don't censor myself in my private life but at work, where I am a councillor, I have to respect my clients and their beliefs. It is not my job to impose my own reality on my clients nor is it beneficial for them, at a time of crisis, to be questioning their beliefs but I know that if they could leave the hang-ups of their beliefs behind them they would be so much better able to deal anything.
This dilemma has brought me to this forum. I am hoping that by listening to how others deal with life as an atheist in a positive way, I will be able to stop thinking of theists as idiots...
Quote from: MichelleM on August 05, 2012, 03:26:50 AM
The more I learn and experience the more it seemed right to be a non-believer....religion just adds an unnecessary complication to my life that I don't need.
That was pretty much my experience too.
QuoteThis dilemma has brought me to this forum. I am hoping that by listening to how others deal with life as an atheist in a positive way, I will be able to stop thinking of theists as idiots...
I think in my case it just took time and a determination to have a generous attitude (still a work in progress) -- and being related to and friends with many theists who are demonstrably not idiots. I'm not sure supernatural beliefs will ever make sense to me, but I can see where they're useful to others and as long as no one tries to legislate them, I'm fine with it.
Frankly, I find being told "god bless you" or "I'll pray for you" sweet. But everyones milage varies. Welcome!
Gweetings.
Quote from: MichelleM on August 05, 2012, 03:26:50 AMI am hoping that by listening to how others deal with life as an atheist in a positive way, I will be able to stop thinking of theists as idiots...
I'm often considered an atheist idiot and perhaps by experiencing atheist idiocy your perspective will become more balanced. :)
Hello and welcome to HAF,
MichelleM. Whether or not any of the conversations here actually help you stop thinking of religious folks as idiots, perhaps this place will at least be somewhere that you'll be able to freely discuss what it is that leads you to think that way.
QuoteNotes for new members from Tank:
The Rules. (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=1522.0)
Users who comply with forum rules will graduate to full membership after 10 posts. Till that time your ability to post is limited to the "Getting to Know You" (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php#2) section of the forum. It is our hope that this small restriction improves the overall atmosphere of HAF.
Some threads you might find interesting.
Where did you get your username from? (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=5133.0)
10 Things About Yourself (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=4940.0)
Tell us A Bit About Where You're From (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=8215.0)
Photography (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=7607.0)
Non-religious pet peeves (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=6917.0)
Pets...what do you have? (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=7.0)
How to tell your family you are an atheist. (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=5111.0)*
"Rules for Conducting a Discussion" by Dr. Mortimer J. Adler (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=5631.0)*
*You will need 10 posts before you can add a post to this thread, but you can read it at any time.
I hope you enjoy your time reading and posting here! (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg825.imageshack.us%2Fimg825%2F7082%2Fsmileykp.gif&hash=44804682878b80211a94c6a1e69670528bd9c4a7)
Your story will sound familiar to many of the other members of this forum. Welcome to HAF.
Quote from: MichelleM on August 05, 2012, 03:26:50 AM
This forum could be the one for me. I have been an atheist for a long time now...I don't remember deciding one day that to become an atheist (no visions, lights from the heavens or angels required) but it was a gradual thing that happened over a long period of time. The more I learn and experience the more it seemed right to be a non-believer....religion just adds an unnecessary complication to my life that I don't need.
I have recently however, come to the realisation that I choose to be with other atheists and freethinkers and find it increasingly difficult to interact with believers. When someone says "god bless you" or that they will pray for me, the hair on the back of my neck prickles and I have to stop myself from replying sarcastically. I don't censor myself in my private life but at work, where I am a councillor, I have to respect my clients and their beliefs. It is not my job to impose my own reality on my clients nor is it beneficial for them, at a time of crisis, to be questioning their beliefs but I know that if they could leave the hang-ups of their beliefs behind them they would be so much better able to deal anything.
This dilemma has brought me to this forum. I am hoping that by listening to how others deal with life as an atheist in a positive way, I will be able to stop thinking of theists as idiots...
Hello Michelle
I'll be brutally honest, if my experiences are anything to go by, you won't be able to stop thinking of theists as idiots and it gets worse as one goes on. But; and it's a big BUT! There is the sin of omission and the sin of commission. The 'God bless you' comment is a sin of omission in that the person simply knows no better or considers what they are doing is right. Then there is the sin of commission where the theist is actively engaging with the dogma of their particular Institutionalised Superstition (aka Religion) and promoting that dogma to the physical or psychological detriment of others e.g. standing against gay marriage.
However there is a third group, the thinking theist who is considerate and accepting of others and their world view. Why don't we see more of them? Because I think they keep their opinions to themselves for the most part. Thus the ignorant, bigoted and stupid become the 'poster boys' for theism. And judging the behaviour of all on the basis of the highly-verbal, agenda driven minority is what I think we as atheists need to guard against.
Welcome to HAF, may your discussions be many and fruitful ;D
Regards
Chris
^ What he said ;D
Welcome!
^^ Mostly what Tank said. The reasonable theists tend not to make a lot of noise, so the ones who draw attention to themselves are often the idiots.
Myself, I try to be charitable and think of theists as having an unfortunate mental affliction, which I must pity rather than mock or hate.
BTW welcome, join in and have fun.
Quote from: MichelleM on August 05, 2012, 03:26:50 AM
This forum could be the one for me. I have been an atheist for a long time now...I don't remember deciding one day that to become an atheist (no visions, lights from the heavens or angels required) but it was a gradual thing that happened over a long period of time. The more I learn and experience the more it seemed right to be a non-believer....religion just adds an unnecessary complication to my life that I don't need.
I have recently however, come to the realisation that I choose to be with other atheists and freethinkers and find it increasingly difficult to interact with believers. When someone says "god bless you" or that they will pray for me, the hair on the back of my neck prickles and I have to stop myself from replying sarcastically. I don't censor myself in my private life but at work, where I am a councillor, I have to respect my clients and their beliefs. It is not my job to impose my own reality on my clients nor is it beneficial for them, at a time of crisis, to be questioning their beliefs but I know that if they could leave the hang-ups of their beliefs behind them they would be so much better able to deal anything.
This dilemma has brought me to this forum. I am hoping that by listening to how others deal with life as an atheist in a positive way, I will be able to stop thinking of theists as idiots...
I would be interested to hear why you are an atheist, apart from it representing an in an unnecessary complication in your life.
The term idiot is shorthand for somebody with low intelligence, but as of course you will know, there are multiple forms of intelligence. There are plenty of theists who are distinguished in their own fields of endeavour so to impose a blanket categorisation of stupidity on the whole tribe seems hard to justify. I also wonder as a councillor whether you think such black- and- white / us-and- them thinking is something you would encourage in your clients?
Welcome to HAF, Michelle. :) The best way I know of to make sure I don't think theists are idiots simply because they're theists is to...
1. Realize I'm perfectly capable of idiocy too, as is anyone else, from time to time :D
2. Befriend, get to know, and love people for being who they are. Once that happens, you understand where their heart is, and even if they've got different ideas, you can shrug it off as a quirk that makes them who they are.
Hope you enjoy the forums!
Quote from: En_Route on August 05, 2012, 12:14:30 PM
Quote from: MichelleM on August 05, 2012, 03:26:50 AM
I would be interested to hear why you are an atheist, apart from it representing an in an unnecessary complication in your life.
I am an atheist because the scientific evidence suggests that we are here, not because a deity put us here but because of an amazing sequence of events. I love the idea that I am made of star dust and bits of me have been around since the big bang. But most importantly, I enjoy being able to accept each new scientific discovery on the evidence alone, without having to justify it within the boundaries of an ancient script. Although my family is not particularly religious, I did have a religious education and wanted to be a nun at 10 yrs., however I rejected religion in my teens mainly because it was boring. As an adult I have married a strident atheist and study and work in a university so I have surrounded myself with freethinkers. I am constantly having my beliefs and values questioned but this has also given me a distorted perception of reality and I find myself asking "why can't everyone think the way I do?'
Quote from: En_Route on August 05, 2012, 12:14:30 PM
The term idiot is shorthand for somebody with low intelligence, but as of course you will know, there are multiple forms of intelligence. There are plenty of theists who are distinguished in their own fields of endeavour so to impose a blanket categorisation of stupidity on the whole tribe seems hard to justify. I also wonder as a councillor whether you think such black- and- white / us-and- them thinking is something you would encourage in your clients?
May be idiot is a bit harsh! But I do find it increasingly hard to understand how something which is so obviously not true, is accepted by intelligent people, and this makes me feel like they are different to me because I have to censor what I say. I can accept this as part of everyday personal interaction but I can't let it interferes with my ability to be an effective counsellor. I know that people can find peace and strength in their faith and that there is no black and white to any issue, the resolution usually lies in the grey areas, but sometimes religion only complicating the issue.
Quote from: Amicale on August 05, 2012, 09:45:25 PM
1. Realize I'm perfectly capable of idiocy too, as is anyone else, from time to time :D
2. Befriend, get to know, and love people for being who they are. Once that happens, you understand where their heart is, and even if they've got different ideas, you can shrug it off as a quirk that makes them who they are.
Thanks, I know I don't have to and can't change the world and I can accept other for who they are, probably more than most theists. I know some wonderful people who are religious and I can accept and respect them until religion interferes with their happiness and well-being.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on August 05, 2012, 04:23:50 AM
Frankly, I find being told "god bless you" or "I'll pray for you" sweet.
But not in a condescending way ;D
Quote from: Tank on August 05, 2012, 08:07:33 AM
There is the sin of omission and the sin of commission. The 'God bless you' comment is a sin of omission in that the person simply knows no better or considers what they are doing is right. Then there is the sin of commission where the theist is actively engaging with the dogma of their particular Institutionalised Superstition (aka Religion) and promoting that dogma to the physical or psychological detriment of others e.g. standing against gay marriage.
However there is a third group, the thinking theist who is considerate and accepting of others and their world view. Why don't we see more of them? Because I think they keep their opinions to themselves for the most part. Thus the ignorant, bigoted and stupid become the 'poster boys' for theism. And judging the behaviour of all on the basis of the highly-verbal, agenda driven minority is what I think we as atheists need to guard against.
So the trick is to know when shout it out loud and when to shut up and let it be...
Quote from: MichelleM on August 06, 2012, 03:17:41 AM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on August 05, 2012, 04:23:50 AM
Frankly, I find being told "god bless you" or "I'll pray for you" sweet.
But not in a condescending way ;D
But that's the thing that makes the difference with me I guess -- I've never been told that in a condescending way. Of course, it's entirely possible I've forgotten it, I forget a lot of things these days.
Quote from: MichelleM on August 06, 2012, 03:55:42 AM
Quote from: Tank on August 05, 2012, 08:07:33 AM
There is the sin of omission and the sin of commission. The 'God bless you' comment is a sin of omission in that the person simply knows no better or considers what they are doing is right. Then there is the sin of commission where the theist is actively engaging with the dogma of their particular Institutionalised Superstition (aka Religion) and promoting that dogma to the physical or psychological detriment of others e.g. standing against gay marriage.
However there is a third group, the thinking theist who is considerate and accepting of others and their world view. Why don't we see more of them? Because I think they keep their opinions to themselves for the most part. Thus the ignorant, bigoted and stupid become the 'poster boys' for theism. And judging the behaviour of all on the basis of the highly-verbal, agenda driven minority is what I think we as atheists need to guard against.
So the trick is to know when shout it out loud and when to shut up and let it be...
Yes, I think that is a fair assessment ;D
Quote from: OldGit on August 05, 2012, 11:35:24 AM
Myself, I try to be charitable and think of theists as having an unfortunate mental affliction, which I must pity rather than mock or hate.
That a good way of looking at it....
"Delusional disorder is characterized by the presence of recurrent, persistent non-bizarre delusions . Delusions are irrational beliefs, held with a high level of conviction, that are highly resistant to change even when the delusional person is exposed to forms of proof that contradict the belief." Encyclopedia of Mental Disorders
Except for the part about non-bizarre delusions......
Quote from: MichelleM on August 06, 2012, 11:39:47 AM
Quote from: OldGit on August 05, 2012, 11:35:24 AM
Myself, I try to be charitable and think of theists as having an unfortunate mental affliction, which I must pity rather than mock or hate.
That a good way of looking at it....
"Delusional disorder is characterized by the presence of recurrent, persistent non-bizarre delusions . Delusions are irrational beliefs, held with a high level of conviction, that are highly resistant to change even when the delusional person is exposed to forms of proof that contradict the belief." Encyclopedia of Mental Disorders
Except for the part about non-bizarre delusions......
I think characterising religious people as idiots and/or suffering from a mental disorder is both patronising and inaccurate. You can be sure that there are theists who are both more intellectually advanced and better- adjusted than you or I. My understanding is that there is in fact a positive correlation between religious belief and mental health, though of course, the usual caveats re cause and effect apply. Most people believe what suits them , including atheists.
Quote from: En_Route on August 06, 2012, 12:16:41 PM
Quote from: MichelleM on August 06, 2012, 11:39:47 AM
Quote from: OldGit on August 05, 2012, 11:35:24 AM
Myself, I try to be charitable and think of theists as having an unfortunate mental affliction, which I must pity rather than mock or hate.
That a good way of looking at it....
"Delusional disorder is characterized by the presence of recurrent, persistent non-bizarre delusions . Delusions are irrational beliefs, held with a high level of conviction, that are highly resistant to change even when the delusional person is exposed to forms of proof that contradict the belief." Encyclopedia of Mental Disorders
Except for the part about non-bizarre delusions......
I think characterising religious people as idiots and/or suffering from a mental disorder is both patronising and inaccurate. You can be sure that there are theists who are both more intellectually advanced and better- adjusted than you or I. My understanding is that there is in fact a positive correlation between religious belief and mental health, though of course, the usual caveats re cause and effect apply. Most people believe what suits them , including atheists.
"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one"
George Bernard Shaw
I'll take my dysfunctional nihilism over happy illusionment any day.
Welcome MM.
Hi Michelle and welcome!
From my perspective, I think it's human nature to want to be right and want others to realize that we are right (that works just as well for atheists as for theists.) My thinking in past years has become....I suppose more apathetic. It's something along the lines of, "It doesn't matter if they ever know I'm right (because of course I am! LOL) If religion makes them happy and gives them strength, that's enough to make it reasonable. There is no eternal judge that is going to come down on them or me at the end of our lives and condemn us for believing in the wrong thing, so if believing in the wrong thing made them happy and made life easier to bear, what does it matter?" My caveat to that is when people start trying to legislate their religion; that makes me cranky and crazy eyed.
Anyway, welcome!
Quote from: Ali on August 06, 2012, 02:43:48 PM
My caveat to that is when people start trying to legislate their religion; that makes me cranky and crazy eyed.
And you do not want to see Ali cranky and crazy eyed. No.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on August 06, 2012, 03:59:21 PM
Quote from: Ali on August 06, 2012, 02:43:48 PM
My caveat to that is when people start trying to legislate their religion; that makes me cranky and crazy eyed.
And you do not want to see Ali cranky and crazy eyed. No.
Doesn't take much though, does it?!
(And she IS a bit hormonal right now so best not say anything that'd set her off...)D'oh!
Quote from: Scissorlegs on August 06, 2012, 04:26:10 PM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on August 06, 2012, 03:59:21 PM
Quote from: Ali on August 06, 2012, 02:43:48 PM
My caveat to that is when people start trying to legislate their religion; that makes me cranky and crazy eyed.
And you do not want to see Ali cranky and crazy eyed. No.
Doesn't take much though, does it?!
(And she IS a bit hormonal right now so best not say anything that'd set her off...)
D'oh!
*Turns a beady eye on Siz* *Eye twitches slightly*
Quote from: Scissorlegs on August 06, 2012, 01:24:01 PM
Quote from: En_Route on August 06, 2012, 12:16:41 PM
Quote from: MichelleM on August 06, 2012, 11:39:47 AM
Quote from: OldGit on August 05, 2012, 11:35:24 AM
Myself, I try to be charitable and think of theists as having an unfortunate mental affliction, which I must pity rather than mock or hate.
That a good way of looking at it....
"Delusional disorder is characterized by the presence of recurrent, persistent non-bizarre delusions . Delusions are irrational beliefs, held with a high level of conviction, that are highly resistant to change even when the delusional person is exposed to forms of proof that contradict the belief." Encyclopedia of Mental Disorders
Except for the part about non-bizarre delusions......
I think characterising religious people as idiots and/or suffering from a mental disorder is both patronising and inaccurate. You can be sure that there are theists who are both more intellectually advanced and better- adjusted than you or I. My understanding is that there is in fact a positive correlation between religious belief and mental health, though of course, the usual caveats re cause and effect apply. Most people believe what suits them , including atheists.
"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one"
George Bernard Shaw
I'll take my dysfunctional nihilism over happy illusionment any day.
Welcome MM.
All well and good but the validity of atheism is not under debate here. MM is suggesting that religious belief can be characterised as a mental disorder whereas the research indicates that it is more likely to be an indicator of positive mental health. That is not to say that for certain individuals their particular religious beliefs or engagement with religion may not compound and exacerbate their mental problems. It is more fruitful to examine how beliefs which if they were held by a single individualwould be regarded as symptomatic of mental disturbance once they become culturally assimilated are seen as perfectly normal and indeed entitled to privileges and special protections.
This is a general request to everybody NOT to start detailed discussions in the introduction threads. MM has only 8 posts ATM please let new members find their feet and take the detailed stuff to the appropriate fora where they can be found later.
Thanks
Tank
^^Spoil sport.
;D
Welcome. It's hard not to think of theists as idiots, but I know quite a few avid churchgoers who have a masters degree. Most of them I wouldn't be able to call idiots. Naive maybe, but not stupid.
Quote from: MichelleM on August 05, 2012, 03:26:50 AM
I am hoping that by listening to how others deal with life as an atheist in a positive way, I will be able to stop thinking of theists as idiots...
Welcome, and I hope you enjoy your experience with us. I work as a nurse on a specialty surgical unit. I am often faced with terminally ill patients who have strong religious beliefs. I see it as, we all have our own truth in this world and our own way of understanding reality. Reality is not the same for everyone and people hold onto beliefs for different reasons to make life worth living. I don't think theists are stupid. I just think that it's difficult for them to let go of beliefs that they were raised with because humans tend to be wired to hold onto the things that we learned in our childhood. This is why we will keep going back to that hot cocoa that our mother's made for us even though we are diabetic and know it's bad for us now. I just try to understand where they are coming from and give them advice that will embrace there beliefs without having to compromise my own. I approach the situation as neutral as possible.
Quote from: teenabeana22 on August 08, 2012, 06:29:54 PM
I just try to understand where they are coming from and give them advice that will embrace there beliefs without having to compromise my own. I approach the situation as neutral as possible.
Imminently sensible. It can take a little extra thought, but it is possible to come up with non-god-oriented words of comfort that the god-oriented can appreciate.