I'm writing a story and I have two female characters. One, Isobel, is the maid of the other Sarah.
In this interchange Isobel is talking to Sarah
"Hello miss, what can I do for you miss?"
Should either, one or neither of the occurrences of 'miss' use a capital M to denote that it is a specific person that Isobel is talking to?
Off the top of my head, I would have answered "no capitalization." However, on doing a bit of research, I learned that if you're using the title in place of a name, then it would be capitalized, and I think that this example qualifies. So, "Hello Miss, what can I do for you, Miss?" apparently would be right. Whichever you decide on, you should be consistent.
Quote from: Recusant on August 03, 2012, 09:36:30 AM
Off the top of my head, I would have answered "no capitalization." However, on doing a bit of research, I learned that if you're using the title in place of a name, then it would be capitalized, and I think that this example qualifies. So, "Hello Miss, what can I do for you, Miss?" apparently would be right. Whichever you decide on, you should be consistent.
Thanks. I'm not a great grammar expert, that helps a lot.
Just by instinct I'd say capitalise. But as Recusant says, stick to one or t'other.
Quote from: OldGit on August 03, 2012, 09:44:04 AM
Just by instinct I'd say capitalise. But as Recusant says, stick to one or t'other.
Thanks. I must say I was tending towards capitalization as in the interchange Isobel is very much substituting 'Miss' for 'Sarah' in terms of a noun.
I suck at grammar, they didn't teach it a school in my time.
But, I really think a capital is required on both occurrences and also do what Recusant did and make sure you use two commas.
Quote from: Stevil on August 03, 2012, 10:23:33 AM
I suck at grammar, they didn't teach it a school in my time.
But, I really think a capital is required on both occurrences and also do what Recusant did and make sure you use two commas.
In this case one comma fits the speech flow pattern better in context of the rest of the interchange and the way the two characters interact in general. There is no pause before the second 'Miss' in this case as it's an informal address.
I have gone with the capitalisation option it does read better IMO and signposts the nature of the word as a noun rather than a pronoun.
"What can I do for you Stevil?"
Hmmm, maybe this is valid. I guess I just didn't like the Miss twice in the same sentence, wanted to separate them as much as possible. I was thinking it then I saw what Recusant did and it confirmed to me that my thinking was "correct".
Grammar can drive a person crazy, it's sooo hard, too many rules and nuances.
Good luck!
Quote from: Stevil on August 03, 2012, 12:02:43 PM
"What can I do for you Stevil?"
Hmmm, maybe this is valid. I guess I just didn't like the Miss twice in the same sentence, wanted to separate them as much as possible. I was thinking it then I saw what Recusant did and it confirmed to me that my thinking was "correct".
Grammar can drive a person crazy, it's sooo hard, too many rules and nuances.
Good luck!
But Isobel is a character in a story, not a grammar checker, it's the way she peaks to Sarah, this is people chatting. Yes I will normally go out of my way to not repeat a word in a sentence when I write it. But that's not the way people speak to each other which is often grammatically very sloppy. I grant you that written down it doesn't look nice but read it as a young, relatively shy woman talking to her mistress and then see that I want to bring in a little apprehension and it works for me.
Quote from: Tank on August 03, 2012, 10:35:05 AM
Quote from: Stevil on August 03, 2012, 10:23:33 AM
I suck at grammar, they didn't teach it a school in my time.
But, I really think a capital is required on both occurrences and also do what Recusant did and make sure you use two commas.
In this case one comma fits the speech flow pattern better in context of the rest of the interchange and the way the two characters interact in general. There is no pause before the second 'Miss' in this case as it's an informal address.
I agree with this assessment. In shorter, more direct sentences it can be appropriate to drop commas where they would be required in longer sentences.
For example, either: "Her words went of course unheeded." or "Her words went, of course, unheeded." would be correct, depending on how you wanted the sentence to be emphasized. At least, according to the Canadian Style Guide. :P
What about using Ms instead :P.
But yeah I'm with the capitalised Miss without a period, as "Miss.," looks a bit odd and you are English.
Definitely capitalize "Miss".
The use of commas looks clumsy. I prefer: " Hello, Miss. What can I do for you, Miss?"
I imagine the next line should be: " Beat me within an inch of my miserable life".
ESL (English as a Second Language) teacher here! (Alas, I can only tell you about American usage. Sometimes standard British usage differs.)
Even in direct address, an honorific (miss, doctor, professor, rabbi) that is not followed by a name takes the lowercase. "Excuse me, miss" but "Excuse me, Miss Czweirtniewski." That is the rule, but very few follow it. Tank wrote the sentence correctly, but many people would capitalize the first letter in "miss." Is it wrong to do so?
It depends what kind of grammar you believe in. If you believe in prescriptive grammar, it is wrong to capitalize the m. In prescriptive grammar, the so-called expert tells you what to do. If you believe in descriptive grammar, you copy what most native speakers do. Capitalization might actually be preferred. Here is an exampe.
Prescriptive grammar: None of the women is here. ("None" is the subject; it takes a singular verb. "Women" cannot be the subject since it is part of a prepositional phrase, "of" being the preposition at its head.)
Descriptive grammar: None of the women are here. (We follow the rule of proximity: "Women" is the noun closest to the verb.)
Most people would say "are"; the grammar conscious would say "is." I tell my students that I will accept either in a composition. It isn't the same as "The women are here," where you must use "are." However, students must be aware that on a standard ESL test like the TOEFL, they need to know the prescriptive answer.
As for the comma... I call it an optional comma (since I am a descriptivist) and think it is all right to include or eliminate it. However, a prescriptivist might or might not say it is a mandatory comma. Not all prescriptivisits and descriptivists hold the same opinions. For this reason, I also tell my students "If you ask five English teachers, you get five different answers."
Hope that helped.
Quote from: En_Route on August 03, 2012, 10:16:48 PM
The use of commas looks clumsy. I prefer: " Hello, Miss. What can I do for you, Miss?"
I imagine the next line should be: " Beat me within an inch of my miserable life".
"Yes Miss, would you prefer the whip or belt"
Quote from: Crow on August 04, 2012, 12:14:20 AM
Quote from: En_Route on August 03, 2012, 10:16:48 PM
The use of commas looks clumsy. I prefer: " Hello, Miss. What can I do for you, Miss?"
I imagine the next line should be: " Beat me within an inch of my miserable life".
"Yes Miss, would you prefer the whip or belt"
Top marks both for grammatical punctiliousness and composition.
The likely response: " Both, of course, you foolish and forgetful girl. Now, bestir yoursef. My splendid butttocks are all aquiver with fervid anticipation and the Master returns from his club within the hour ".
Quote from: En_Route on August 03, 2012, 10:16:48 PM
The use of commas looks clumsy. I prefer: " Hello, Miss. What can I do for you, Miss?"
I imagine the next line should be: " Beat me within an inch of my miserable life".
Well that wouldn't work at all in the context of the passage at all.
My only interest was the use of Miss as a noun to create emphasis on the relationship between Isobel and Sarah and that question has been answered. So speculate to your heart's content about emphasis and punctuation but the story won't change :D
Quote from: En_Route on August 04, 2012, 01:03:52 AM
Quote from: Crow on August 04, 2012, 12:14:20 AM
Quote from: En_Route on August 03, 2012, 10:16:48 PM
The use of commas looks clumsy. I prefer: " Hello, Miss. What can I do for you, Miss?"
I imagine the next line should be: " Beat me within an inch of my miserable life".
"Yes Miss, would you prefer the whip or belt"
Top marks both for grammatical punctiliousness and composition.
The likely response: " Both, of course, you foolish and forgetful girl. Now, bestir yoursef. My splendid butttocks are all aquiver with fervid anticipation and the Master returns from his club within the hour ".
I see you have read 'The Pearl' at some point. ;)