http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/26/majority-of-americans-would-vote-for-an-atheist-for-president_n_1708044.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/26/majority-of-americans-would-vote-for-an-atheist-for-president_n_1708044.html)
Good news... that more than half of Americans would be willing to vote for a well-qualified atheist for president.
Bad news... that 43 percent still would not, and increase in poll numbers for an atheist candidate appears to be leveling off.
Of course it shows shifting attitudes toward atheists in American society. However, I have a feeling in a real election, many of those who claimed they would vote for an atheist wouldn't actually do it. It's a different thing to say so on a phone call when a person may be trying not to sound like a bigot, then to actually dimple the chad on the ballot for an atheist candidate in private. More white people claimed in polls they would be open to voting for Obama in '08 than actually did.
Quote from: fester30 on July 28, 2012, 05:32:36 PM
However, I have a feeling in a real election, many of those who claimed they would vote for an atheist wouldn't actually do it.
I believe this is spot on. It seems on a few issues where polls have shown majority in favor (or against, depending on wording), actual voting results don't match.
Quote from: hismikeness on July 31, 2012, 10:36:44 AM
Quote from: fester30 on July 28, 2012, 05:32:36 PM
However, I have a feeling in a real election, many of those who claimed they would vote for an atheist wouldn't actually do it.
I believe this is spot on. It seems on a few issues where polls have shown majority in favor (or against, depending on wording), actual voting results don't match.
There were at least a couple of state amendments to ban gay marriage that were voted on by the people of the state that were like that. If memory serves, most Californians actually supported gay marriage back in 2008 when that happened, yet it was still voted down. I think I know why. Let's say 60% of the state in polls claim they are for gay marriage, and 40% are against. Out of the 60% that are for it, a very small minority are actually gay or have a real personal reason to show up to the polls in November to vote. Out of the 40%, many of them are relgious and feel their religion is being attacked, so more of them have a reason to show up.
Sure all these people SAY they would be willing to vote for a well-qualified atheist. However, some people's standards of well-qualified might be different than others. Even out of those people who responded positively, their standard for a well-qualified atheist may be above their standard for a well-qualified theist.
Obviously I'm not going to vote someone who promotes ideals which I do not support. I don't 'support' atheism, nor do I 'support' theism in a President. I don't support our current...leader and he claims to be Christian. I could vote for an atheist as long as he/she wasn't an angry atheist...angry at God/god(s).
Quote from: fester30 on July 31, 2012, 12:34:30 PM
Sure all these people SAY they would be willing to vote for a well-qualified atheist. However, some people's standards of well-qualified might be different than others. Even out of those people who responded positively, their standard for a well-qualified atheist may be above their standard for a well-qualified theist.
And they may just be saying "yes to atheists" to look cool or avoid being un-PC or whatever. When it comes to making a vote no one is going to see, however, that's different.
In the meantime, I don't think I've ever not been stuck in the position of having to decide between theists and hoping the one I choose for all the other reasons doesn't give me a nasty surprise in the religion department.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on August 08, 2012, 10:00:47 PM
I could vote for an atheist as long as he/she wasn't an angry atheist...angry at God/god(s).
I really don't see how this idea of an atheist being angry at god(s) isn't a fallacy. How can a person be angry at something he or she doesn't even believe in? Angry at religions and religious institutions and/or authorities, yes. But angry at something you see as non existent just doesn't make sense.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on August 09, 2012, 12:11:46 AM
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on August 08, 2012, 10:00:47 PM
I could vote for an atheist as long as he/she wasn't an angry atheist...angry at God/god(s).
I really don't see how this idea of an atheist being angry at god(s) isn't a fallacy. How can a person be angry at something he or she doesn't even believe in? Angry at religions and religious institutions and/or authorities, yes. But angry at something you see as non existent just doesn't make sense.
I've often wondered that myself. I can see becoming an atheist, and not believing, because one is angry at god, but after you don't believe you can't be angry. ???
Quote from: hismikeness on August 09, 2012, 06:23:57 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on August 09, 2012, 12:11:46 AM
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on August 08, 2012, 10:00:47 PM
I could vote for an atheist as long as he/she wasn't an angry atheist...angry at God/god(s).
I really don't see how this idea of an atheist being angry at god(s) isn't a fallacy. How can a person be angry at something he or she doesn't even believe in? Angry at religions and religious institutions and/or authorities, yes. But angry at something you see as non existent just doesn't make sense.
I've often wondered that myself. I can see becoming an atheist, and not believing, because one is angry at god, but after you don't believe you can't be angry. ???
Fallacy to us. To religious people, being angry at religions and religious institutions is the same thing as being angry at god. They don't separate the two.
A person who is angry at god can by definition not be an atheist. Simple as that.
Try to imagine the picketing at a political rally whose candidate was an announced atheist. Imagine the pressure that you and I would endure for being in favor of voting for the atheist candidate. Now imagine the shitstorm if a closet atheist came out publicly after having been elected to some high office. Kansas might secede along with South Carolina and Iowa.
I think that this would make a good horror movie.
Quote from: Guardian85 on August 09, 2012, 07:39:05 PM
A person who is angry at god can by definition not be an atheist. Simple as that.
...and yet angry atheists exist.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on August 09, 2012, 09:37:38 PM
Quote from: Guardian85 on August 09, 2012, 07:39:05 PM
A person who is angry at god can by definition not be an atheist. Simple as that.
...and yet angry atheists exist.
Well...of course. There's plenty to be angry at. But saying that an angry atheist is angry at a concept (god) doesn't make sense.
What do you think about Sharia law or radical terrorist Muslims, for instance? Does it make you hate Allah?
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on August 09, 2012, 09:41:29 PM
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on August 09, 2012, 09:37:38 PM
Quote from: Guardian85 on August 09, 2012, 07:39:05 PM
A person who is angry at god can by definition not be an atheist. Simple as that.
...and yet angry atheists exist.
Well...of course. There's plenty to be angry at. But saying that an angry atheist is angry at a concept (god) doesn't make sense.
What do you think about Sharia law or radical terrorist Muslims, for instance? Does it make you hate Allah?
I don't think of it much as if it comes into the U.S. as any sort of force, I'll be long gone. Do I hate Allah? Not at all.
However, as someone already pointed out, 'angry atheist' normally means one who hates everything to do with religion/religious people and so might seem to do anything in their power to stop religion and/or religious liberty on their belief that everything bad that happens is a direct result of religion, and therefore "God/god(s)"
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on August 09, 2012, 09:41:29 PM
Well...of course. There's plenty to be angry at. But saying that an angry atheist is angry at a concept (god) doesn't make sense.
Yeah it does, being angry at a concept makes sense for an atheist but being angry at a god doesn't.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on August 09, 2012, 10:42:02 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on August 09, 2012, 09:41:29 PM
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on August 09, 2012, 09:37:38 PM
Quote from: Guardian85 on August 09, 2012, 07:39:05 PM
A person who is angry at god can by definition not be an atheist. Simple as that.
...and yet angry atheists exist.
Well...of course. There's plenty to be angry at. But saying that an angry atheist is angry at a concept (god) doesn't make sense.
What do you think about Sharia law or radical terrorist Muslims, for instance? Does it make you hate Allah?
I don't think of it much as if it comes into the U.S. as any sort of force, I'll be long gone. Do I hate Allah? Not at all.
However, as someone already pointed out, 'angry atheist' normally means one who hates everything to do with religion/religious people and so might seem to do anything in their power to stop religion and/or religious liberty on their belief that everything bad that happens is a direct result of religion, and therefore "God/god(s)"
Still a non sequitor between being angry and religious institutions or the way that some religious people want to infringe on people's liberty to be free of religion and being angry at an idea that in your reality doesn't even exist.
okay, maybe shouldn't have used the Allah example, but why don't you hate that god even if there are very vocal people who do terrible things in that god's name? Even if a world away?
Take this hypothetical example. Someone hates Christmas for whatever reason. They see cultural deprivation or excessive capitalist greed (to take a few common examples for reasons why some don't like Xmas) and someone comes and tells them that they hate Santa too. That would be more or less an equivalent, and a fallacy.
Quote from: Crow on August 09, 2012, 11:10:41 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on August 09, 2012, 09:41:29 PM
Well...of course. There's plenty to be angry at. But saying that an angry atheist is angry at a concept (god) doesn't make sense.
Yeah it does, being angry at a concept makes sense for an atheist but being angry at a god doesn't.
Yeah come to think of it, maybe. But religious treat the concept as if it was a person, which is a bit odd. I hate other concepts as well but they aren't nearly as personalised.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on August 09, 2012, 11:15:22 PM
Still a non sequitor between being angry and religious institutions or the way that some religious people want to infringe on people's liberty to be free of religion and being angry at an idea that in your reality doesn't even exist.
Simply do a search on 'angry atheist' and most of what comes up is anger towards religion and all it's aspects...hence an angry atheist can rightly be a person who dislikes/is angry at religion, religious people..."God/god(s)", even Richard Dawkins is regarded as an angry atheist. It may literally be a non sequitor or a logical fallacy, but it fits well within the general understanding of even atheists and their chosen name/blogs/facebooks...it doesn't
logically fit, but it does.
Quote from: xSilverPhinxokay, maybe shouldn't have used the Allah example, but why don't you hate that god even if there are very vocal people who do terrible things in that god's name? Even if a world away?
What benefit is there in doing so? I dislike cops to a degree, but I don't hate law. I realize there are good cops out there...somewhere.
Quote from: xSilverPhinxTake this hypothetical example. Someone hates Christmas for whatever reason. They see cultural deprivation or excessive capitalist greed (to take a few common examples for reasons why some don't like Xmas) and someone comes and tells them that they hate Santa too. That would be more or less an equivalent, and a fallacy.
I don't see a difference. If one hates Christmas, one must also hate Santa. An angry anti-Christmasite is more or less equivalent to an angry anti-Santite. ( See Seinfeld is life and life is Seinfeld! )
I know there are angry atheists who vent their frustration regularly at religions and religious issues, I'm not questioning that part. Really I can only speak for myself, but it's just weird for me, as an atheist who sometimes does vent and rant, to say that I'm angry at a god I don't even believe exist. That's why I brought up the Allah example, I'm assuming you don't believe in that particular deity and so really don't see a connection between frustration at some aspects of the Muslim religion or group of Muslims and a god you don't believe in.
For me saying that I hate Yahweh as if that were something concrete is just weird.
As for Santa, one can be totally indifferent. Someone can actually like the Santa idea and really just not like what Xmas has become.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on August 09, 2012, 11:40:54 PM
I don't see a difference. If one hates Christmas, one must also hate Santa. An angry anti-Christmasite is more or less equivalent to an angry anti-Santite. ( See Seinfeld is life and life is Seinfeld! )
No Santa is just a concept so you can hate the concept of Santa and what it represents and you may refer to that concept solely as Santa, but you can't hate Santa like you would a person or a inanimate object. The hatred of this concept might even be the primary cause for the dislike of Christmas but Santa isn't real, it's a personification of an idealised behavior. The same applies to an angry atheist when they say they hate god
A person who believes in a god and hates him/her/it actually hates it because god isn't a concept to them, it is real. They may hate the way they have been treated or why they perceive so much injustice to take place at the hands of their god. An angry atheist on the other hand hates what the god character represents in the particular religion they are referring to, if it's anything more than that then they may not be atheist.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on August 09, 2012, 11:40:54 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on August 09, 2012, 11:15:22 PM
Still a non sequitor between being angry and religious institutions or the way that some religious people want to infringe on people's liberty to be free of religion and being angry at an idea that in your reality doesn't even exist.
Simply do a search on 'angry atheist' and most of what comes up is anger towards religion and all it's aspects...hence an angry atheist can rightly be a person who dislikes/is angry at religion, religious people..."God/god(s)", even Richard Dawkins is regarded as an angry atheist. It may literally be a non sequitor or a logical fallacy, but it fits well within the general understanding of even atheists and their chosen name/blogs/facebooks...it doesn't logically fit, but it does.
Even if an atheist who happens to be angry at the consept of a god or religion says he/she hates god (whichever one you like) he/she cannot hate the god as an individual. Hating the "person" of god would imply the existance of the god in the mind of the hater. This would disqualify him/her as an atheist. Angry atheists are not angry at god, they are angry at the people who worship the god or the organisations that work in the name of said god.
If you are interested in understanding angry atheists I reccomend this. I have posted it before, but I think it's relevant here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUI_ML1qkQE&feature=channel&list=UL
I agree it's not anger at god for atheists, but rather anger at the idea of god. To call it anger at god would be to misdirect the anger. I do, however see theists get angry at god from time to time.
Quote from: Guardian85 on August 10, 2012, 06:48:44 AM
If you are interested in understanding angry atheists I reccomend this. I have posted it before, but I think it's relevant here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUI_ML1qkQE&feature=channel&list=UL
That's a great video, thank you for sharing.
Quote from: fester30 on August 10, 2012, 10:28:26 AM
I agree it's not anger at god for atheists, but rather anger at the idea of god. To call it anger at god would be to misdirect the anger. I do, however see theists get angry at god from time to time.
Anger at the
idea of god = angry atheist. That's fine with me.
Nothing necessarily wrong with a theist being angry at God. We are human and if we disagree or don't get our way, anger can be a normal emotion.