Y'all just need to stop with the god stuff. Enough already. It's not real. Okay?
Okay.
Good talk. ;)
Now you're just fishing for trouble. :-\
I am afraid that this has been tried before. It might work this time. After all miracles due happen or at least thats what our theist friends say.
Well, Bomr, you said rather succinctly what many of us take entire books to explain. Trouble is, they won't take any notice of this either. :'(
Though I can't disagree with the sentiment, I'm wondering what the point of it is.
Sometimes it's worth it to stop for moment, take a break from the logical arguments and statements based on reason and rationality and simply point out that the other side is just plain wrong and they need to stop wasting their lives on these divine fairy tales. This is me cutting to the chase. Of course it won't work but not because I didn't try for their own good.
Those inclined to do so may resume their imaginary relationship with god now. ::)
Or you could simply stop wasting your breath on talk and decide to actually do something. ;)
Quote from: MadBomr101 on July 05, 2012, 12:32:21 AM
Sometimes it's worth it to stop for moment, take a break from the logical arguments and statements based on reason and rationality and simply point out that the other side is just plain wrong and they need to stop wasting their lives on these divine fairy tales. This is me cutting to the chase. Of course it won't work but not because I didn't try for their own good.
Those inclined to do so may resume their imaginary relationship with god now. ::)
Telling people they are wrong without explaining why is marginally more futile than telling people they are wrong and explaining why. It is also heavily patronising to tell people what is for their own good. Undoubtedly for a lot of people, they would personally fare worse if their religion was taken from them.
Quote from: En_Route on July 05, 2012, 01:22:56 PM
Quote from: MadBomr101 on July 05, 2012, 12:32:21 AM
Sometimes it's worth it to stop for moment, take a break from the logical arguments and statements based on reason and rationality and simply point out that the other side is just plain wrong and they need to stop wasting their lives on these divine fairy tales. This is me cutting to the chase. Of course it won't work but not because I didn't try for their own good.
Those inclined to do so may resume their imaginary relationship with god now. ::)
Telling people they are wrong without explaining why is marginally more futile than telling people they are wrong and explaining why. It is also heavily patronising to tell people what is for their own good. Undoubtedly for a lot of people, they would personally fare worse if their religion was taken from them.
So would a crack addict if you took his crack away. He's still better off without it however. Unless the goal is to shield one's self from reality by clinging to these fantasies religion offers comfort based on bullsh*t. I'd like to see these people wake up. I've spent twenty years explaining why they're wrong but their addiction to the fantasy is stronger than reason. Really don't know how to get through to them.
It makes me :(
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on July 05, 2012, 10:26:39 AM
Or you could simply stop wasting your breath on talk and decide to actually do something. ;)
Actually doing something takes time and money. Talk is all I can afford. :)
Yeah... me too. :-\
Quote from: MadBomr101 on July 05, 2012, 04:38:23 PM
Quote from: En_Route on July 05, 2012, 01:22:56 PM
Quote from: MadBomr101 on July 05, 2012, 12:32:21 AM
Sometimes it's worth it to stop for moment, take a break from the logical arguments and statements based on reason and rationality and simply point out that the other side is just plain wrong and they need to stop wasting their lives on these divine fairy tales. This is me cutting to the chase. Of course it won't work but not because I didn't try for their own good.
Those inclined to do so may resume their imaginary relationship with god now. ::)
Telling people they are wrong without explaining why is marginally more futile than telling people they are wrong and explaining why. It is also heavily patronising to tell people what is for their own good. Undoubtedly for a lot of people, they would personally fare worse if their religion was taken from them.
So would a crack addict if you took his crack away. He's still better off without it however. Unless the goal is to shield one's self from reality by clinging to these fantasies religion offers comfort based on bullsh*t. I'd like to see these people wake up. I've spent twenty years explaining why they're wrong but their addiction to the fantasy is stronger than reason. Really don't know how to get through to them.
It makes me :(
Maybe you are better off not attempting to reason with anybody if you think that it follows that because crack addicts are better of without crack, then a believer must be better off without their faith. Seems to me you are displaying exactly the dogmatism and intolerance which you would presumably be the first to decry when evidenced by theists.
I go along with you, E_R, until I think of all the harm these people are doing in the real world. Then I tend to side with Bomr.
Quote from: OldGit on July 05, 2012, 06:05:30 PM
I go along with you, E_R, until I think of all the harm these people are doing in the real world. Then I tend to side with Bomr.
I don't see religion per se as the root of all evil. Blind adherence to ideology of any kind is conducive to increasing the sum of human misery. There is also a tendency to tar all Christians with the same brush. The religious right in the US seem to me to be actuated by a corrosive hatred of those who differ in their views from them; other persuasions, maybe eg Quakers, do seem to demonstrate a benevolence towards their fellow man and a tolerance for opposing views. The real point I was making that it is impossible to say to every religious individual that forsaking religion will be beneficial for them. I suspect in many cases it will be the reverse. That is a different issue as to whether or not society or mankind as a whole might profit from such a trend, though that itself is I think an imponderable.
Religion is simply a bad idea that has done enough damage and has continued far past its expiration date. It's the sour milk in the refrigerator of mankind, a superstitious self-delusion that does no one any real good because it's not based on anything real. Human beings are the only creatures that can't face their insignificance within the broad scheme of the universe nor the finality of death so they make up stories to give themselves greater significance as the pet species of the most powerful being imaginable as well as a shield to protect themselves from the oblivion of death. However, the comfort they take with their belief in all of this is based on a con.
We are insignificant - so what? Life isn't miraculous - a crack whore and a meth fiend can make a baby together. People are just another species of animal that evolved on a little blue planet in a small solar system ruled over by a medium sized yellow star. Cockroaches also evolved, so did cancer cells. Get over yourselves.
It's all about accepting what's real. Sure, this will cause anxiety for many of the faithful. They could no longer comfort themselves with god's love or promise of eternal life but they don't actually have either of things anyway. So the only real adjustment they need to make is to learn to accept reality which is something they should be doing. You get one life, when it's over, it's over. Make the most of it, do your best with it. Love your families, raise your children, live life as you live it now, just excise that part where one spends time offering praise and glory to magical beings that live in the sky. Oh, and try not to be too much of a prick while you're here. That's important too.
It's the 21st century. Worshipping gods is an embarassment that just demeans our species and causes far more problems than it has ever solved.
Quote from: MadBomr101 on July 05, 2012, 09:48:02 PM
Religion is simply a bad idea that has done enough damage and has continued far past its expiration date. It's the sour milk in the refrigerator of mankind, a superstitious self-delusion that does no one any real good because it's not based on anything real. Human beings are the only creatures that can't face their insignificance within the broad scheme of the universe nor the finality of death so they make up stories to give themselves greater significance as the pet species of the most powerful being imaginable as well as a shield to protect themselves from the oblivion of death. However, the comfort they take with their belief in all of this is based on a con.
We are insignificant - so what? Life isn't miraculous - a crack whore and a meth fiend can make a baby together. People are just another species of animal that evolved on a little blue planet in a small solar system ruled over by a medium sized yellow star. Cockroaches also evolved, so did cancer cells. Get over yourselves.
It's all about accepting what's real. Sure, this will cause anxiety for many of the faithful. They could no longer comfort themselves with god's love or promise of eternal life but they don't actually have either of things anyway. So the only real adjustment they need to make is to learn to accept reality which is something they should be doing. You get one life, when it's over, it's over. Make the most of it, do your best with it. Love your families, raise your children, live life as you live it now, just excise that part where one spends time offering praise and glory to magical beings that live in the sky. Oh, and try not to be too much of a prick while you're here. That's important too.
It's the 21st century. Worshipping gods is an embarassment that just demeans our species and causes far more problems than it has ever solved.
That's an impressive call to arms. Congrats on your considerable rhetorical gifts.
Quote from: En_Route on July 05, 2012, 07:13:01 PM
Quote from: OldGit on July 05, 2012, 06:05:30 PM
I go along with you, E_R, until I think of all the harm these people are doing in the real world. Then I tend to side with Bomr.
I don't see religion per se as the root of all evil. Blind adherence to ideology of any kind is conducive to increasing the sum of human misery. There is also a tendency to tar all Christians with the same brush. The religious right in the US seem to me to be actuated by a corrosive hatred of those who differ in their views from them; other persuasions, maybe eg Quakers, do seem to demonstrate a benevolence towards their fellow man and a tolerance for opposing views. The real point I was making that it is impossible to say to every religious individual that forsaking religion will be beneficial for them. I suspect in many cases it will be the reverse. That is a different issue as to whether or not society or mankind as a whole might profit from such a trend, though that itself is I think an imponderable.
Lucid and cogent as usual, E_R. I, for one, appreciate your dissenting efforts on HAF in this regard. Your resistance to the unconsidered polemical attitudes of some here sets a good example. Thank you.
Quote from: The Black Jester on July 05, 2012, 10:40:24 PM
Quote from: En_Route on July 05, 2012, 07:13:01 PM
Quote from: OldGit on July 05, 2012, 06:05:30 PM
I go along with you, E_R, until I think of all the harm these people are doing in the real world. Then I tend to side with Bomr.
I don't see religion per se as the root of all evil. Blind adherence to ideology of any kind is conducive to increasing the sum of human misery. There is also a tendency to tar all Christians with the same brush. The religious right in the US seem to me to be actuated by a corrosive hatred of those who differ in their views from them; other persuasions, maybe eg Quakers, do seem to demonstrate a benevolence towards their fellow man and a tolerance for opposing views. The real point I was making that it is impossible to say to every religious individual that forsaking religion will be beneficial for them. I suspect in many cases it will be the reverse. That is a different issue as to whether or not society or mankind as a whole might profit from such a trend, though that itself is I think an imponderable.
Lucid and cogent as usual, E_R. I, for one, appreciate your dissenting efforts on HAF in this regard. Your resistance to the unconsidered polemical attitudes of some here sets a good example. Thank you.
I am genuinely grateful for your supportive sentiments. Though I am well aware they will not be greeted with universal accord. In fairness to the forum, it is very inclusive and does allow for a wide gamut of views to be expressed without the moderators wielding their truncheons.
I also agree with ER on this one. I've never been a "all religion should be abolished" kind of atheist, more a "please keep it in the private sphere" kind of atheist.
Quote from: En_Route on July 06, 2012, 12:27:42 AM
I am genuinely grateful for your supportive sentiments. Though I am well aware they will not be greeted with universal accord.
Perhaps not. But I find a healthy discord invigorating. Nevertheless, what I take from you is the necessity of carefully considering
all of one's opinions, subjecting each belief to the same scrutiny. Lack of faith in the matter of dieties is not some universal proof against error. Nor does religious belief necessarily entail one specific set of characteristics, or entire unreasonableness.
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on July 06, 2012, 01:14:45 AM
I also agree with ER on this one. I've never been a "all religion should be abolished" kind of atheist, more a "please keep it in the private sphere" kind of atheist.
Thirded. I don't mind religion or superstition as long as they are not being forcibly crammed down someone else's throat.
Quote from: Ali on July 06, 2012, 01:23:22 AM
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on July 06, 2012, 01:14:45 AM
I also agree with ER on this one. I've never been a "all religion should be abolished" kind of atheist, more a "please keep it in the private sphere" kind of atheist.
Thirded. I don't mind religion or superstition as long as they are not being forcibly crammed down someone else's throat.
That'd be swell. The problem is that doesn't happen. Look at the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Salem Witch Trials, 9/11, Xian hatred and intolerance toward atheists and gays, Jihads, Naziism, etc... Religion isn't really known for its willingness to sit quietly in the corner and behave itself.
Quote from: MadBomr101 on July 06, 2012, 01:59:41 AM
Quote from: Ali on July 06, 2012, 01:23:22 AM
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on July 06, 2012, 01:14:45 AM
I also agree with ER on this one. I've never been a "all religion should be abolished" kind of atheist, more a "please keep it in the private sphere" kind of atheist.
Thirded. I don't mind religion or superstition as long as they are not being forcibly crammed down someone else's throat.
That'd be swell. The problem is that doesn't happen. Look at the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Salem Witch Trials, 9/11, Xian hatred and intolerance toward atheists and gays, Jihads, Naziism, etc... Religion isn't really known for its willingness to sit quietly in the corner and behave itself.
It's not, but I'm a firm believer that people should be allowed to have ideas I don't like. I don't think policing people's thoughts will lead to a better world. If people can't be convinced by reason and evidence, I think they should be left alone -- so long as we do what we can to prevent them from acting in destructive ways.
Religion plays a part in some horrible things, but I don't think it's the source in the strictest sense. I think it's part of human nature to cast groups as "others" and persecute them. Sometimes religion enables this, but I don't think removing religion would remove the problem. Fundamentally, parts of us are prone to assholery, no matter what ideology is available to us.
Besides. Even if you could "remove" the big religions, people would just go ahead and invent new ones anyway. Penn & Teller did a Bullshit episode on a hippie lady that worships dolphin spirits. She just made it up. That's what people do.
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on July 06, 2012, 02:21:40 AMBesides. Even if you could "remove" the big religions, people would just go ahead and invent new ones anyway. Penn & Teller did a Bullshit episode on a hippie lady that worships dolphin spirits. She just made it up. That's what people do.
Yes, they certainly do. They've been doing it since Man threw rocks at the moon for swallowing the sun. It's a pattern of behavior that's inexplicable to any rational way of thinking. I could make up some goofy notion of a supreme being or higher power to give myself comfort but I'd have to ignore the fact that it's bullshit or convince myself that it isn't. Sadly, it seems I'm unable to do this so no gods or dolphin spirits for me.
I think I'd be okay with people if they all wanted to worship dolphin spirits though. How much damage can possibly be done if everyone's faith was based on embracing the spirit of a dolphin?
Quote from: Ali on July 06, 2012, 01:23:22 AM
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on July 06, 2012, 01:14:45 AM
I also agree with ER on this one. I've never been a "all religion should be abolished" kind of atheist, more a "please keep it in the private sphere" kind of atheist.
Thirded. I don't mind religion or superstition as long as they are not being forcibly crammed down someone else's throat.
Fourthed. I just can't bring myself to do things "for peoples own good", apparently believing they'll thank me later. I've been on the receiving end of that and I've never thanked anyone later.
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on July 06, 2012, 02:21:40 AM
Fundamentally, parts of us are prone to assholery, no matter what ideology is available to us.
Quoted for Truth.
People just want to find ways to justify things. When you don't like being left without answers, you'll make them up, and so if there's no religion to help you rationalise away your actions and reason for existence (as if it's something that if exists, we could possibly know ::) ), then you'd just find something else that will.
But religion is a mish-mash some some of the least nicest things about human nature as well - tribal behaviour us versus them mentality being some of the causes of the worst things. Sense of community and "spiritual" duty towards others being some of the better parts.
And having a world full of atheists might not make things into a utopia, there's also a danger of detrimental group-think there ;). IMO diversity should be encouraged.
Quote from: MadBomr101 on July 06, 2012, 02:53:50 AM
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on July 06, 2012, 02:21:40 AMBesides. Even if you could "remove" the big religions, people would just go ahead and invent new ones anyway. Penn & Teller did a Bullshit episode on a hippie lady that worships dolphin spirits. She just made it up. That's what people do.
I think I'd be okay with people if they all wanted to worship dolphin spirits though. How much damage can possibly be done if everyone's faith was based on embracing the spirit of a dolphin?
Battery and widespread gang-rape legalized?
Quote from: Dobermonster on July 06, 2012, 05:40:26 AM
Quote from: MadBomr101 on July 06, 2012, 02:53:50 AM
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on July 06, 2012, 02:21:40 AMBesides. Even if you could "remove" the big religions, people would just go ahead and invent new ones anyway. Penn & Teller did a Bullshit episode on a hippie lady that worships dolphin spirits. She just made it up. That's what people do.
I think I'd be okay with people if they all wanted to worship dolphin spirits though. How much damage can possibly be done if everyone's faith was based on embracing the spirit of a dolphin?
Battery and widespread gang-rape legalized?
Cherry-picking...or not?
Quote from: MadBomr101 on July 06, 2012, 01:59:41 AM
Quote from: Ali on July 06, 2012, 01:23:22 AM
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on July 06, 2012, 01:14:45 AM
I also agree with ER on this one. I've never been a "all religion should be abolished" kind of atheist, more a "please keep it in the private sphere" kind of atheist.
Thirded. I don't mind religion or superstition as long as they are not being forcibly crammed down someone else's throat.
That'd be swell. The problem is that doesn't happen. Look at the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Salem Witch Trials, 9/11, Xian hatred and intolerance toward atheists and gays, Jihads, Naziism, etc... Religion isn't really known for its willingness to sit quietly in the corner and behave itself.
The Crusades, Inquisition and The Salem Witch Trials are all rather a long time ago. Human beings are perfectly capable of persecuting and butchering each other for causes other than religion, eg the genocide in Rwanda . I think Naziiism with its creed of Aryan supremacy was probably a secular version of religious zealotry. There may also be an argument that religion is often co-opted by the State and that Churches abandon the message of their founder and become part of the apparatus of oppression. That seems more to do with human nature than the specific doctrinal content of religion. Even Buddhism which enshrines a message of tolerance and avoidance of dogmatism has been subverted to some extent by the hierophantic structures that have evolved in its name. Intolerance, fear of difference, the herd instinct, righteous self- justification, the tendency to dehumanise outsiders, the desperate need for certainty to supply a purpose in our capricious existence are all deeply rooted in the human psyche. To cast religion as the big bad wolf which is the perpetrator of all our ills is to fall into these same traps, in my opinion.
Quote from: E_RTo cast religion as the big bad wolf which is the perpetrator of all our ills ...
I don't think anyone's being quite so simplistic. But (to put it in the fairest possible words), Religion is and very often has been
associated with and
a channel formankind's worst instincts.
Thus it seems reasonable to hope that if we can sideline religion, such unpleasantness will be reduced.
Quote from: OldGit on July 06, 2012, 12:54:04 PM
Quote from: E_RTo cast religion as the big bad wolf which is the perpetrator of all our ills ...
I don't think anyone's being quite so simplistic. But (to put it in the fairest possible words), Religion is and very often has been associated with and a channel for
mankind's worst instincts.
Thus it seems reasonable to hope that if we can sideline religion, such unpleasantness will be reduced.
I don't think this necessarily follows. The point is that religiious belief of some kind has been pretty well universal in every society since time immemorial. so that it would almost have been impossible for it not to be implicated in much of the nastiness that has occurred. However, the fact that human beings can inflict all manner of horrors each other without reference to religion, suggests to me that your optimism may be misplaced. I think that the more benign forms of Christianity and the original, non- theistic philosophy of Buddhism are potentially in fact quite civilising influences.
Let's not forget just how powerful religion can be as a shepard of scared people and for oppression. What better way to get people to shut up and follow you than saying that you have the infinitely powerful creator of the whole universe on your side?
It's all very problematic, some countries are filled with people who are too religious and scared to think for themselves because their religious leaders keep filling their heads with night-time monster story nonsense. Religions win people over and own them.
It's a very sophisticated manipulation tool because it uses the human psyche as its landscape.
Quote from: En_Route on July 06, 2012, 01:14:14 PM
Quote from: OldGit on July 06, 2012, 12:54:04 PM
Quote from: E_RTo cast religion as the big bad wolf which is the perpetrator of all our ills ...
I don't think anyone's being quite so simplistic. But (to put it in the fairest possible words), Religion is and very often has been associated with and a channel for
mankind's worst instincts.
Thus it seems reasonable to hope that if we can sideline religion, such unpleasantness will be reduced.
I don't think this necessarily follows. The point is that religiious belief of some kind has been pretty well universal in every society since time immemorial. so that it would almost have been impossible for it not to be implicated in much of the nastiness that has occurred. However, the fact that human beings can inflict all manner of horrors each other without reference to religion, suggests to me that your optimism may be misplaced. I think that the more benign forms of Christianity and the original, non- theistic philosophy of Buddhism are potentially in fact quite civilising influences.
I agree with the spirit of E_R's suggestions here. It may be true that divesting humankind of its
religious superstitions would remove
one manner in which atrocities were rationalized, but to assume that the atrocities themselves would be removed seems to me another kind of wishful thinking. It could perfectly well be that other ideologies would simply take religion's place as the prime mover in such tragedies. It seems to me we have deep instincts for conflict, and easily rationalize brutality in myriad ways. My instinct is that humanity has some distance to go before eradicating such horrors.
Quote from: meThus it seems reasonable to hope that if we can sideline religion, such unpleasantness will be reduced.
Quote from: OldGit on July 06, 2012, 08:02:32 PM
Quote from: meThus it seems reasonable to hope that if we can sideline religion, such unpleasantness will be reduced.
I did notice that nuance, but still respectfully disagree. I'm still not convinced that eliminating religious thinking will
necessarily lead
directly to even
reduced human suffering. I'm thinking it's just as likely we'd find another reason to kill and torture one another.
Quote from: The Black Jester on July 06, 2012, 08:09:08 PM
Quote from: OldGit on July 06, 2012, 08:02:32 PM
Quote from: meThus it seems reasonable to hope that if we can sideline religion, such unpleasantness will be reduced.
I did notice that nuance, but still respectfully disagree. I'm still not convinced that eliminating religious thinking will necessarily lead directly to even reduced human suffering. I'm thinking it's just as likely we'd find another reason to kill and torture one another.
This. There will still be territory, money, drugs, gangs, etc... There would always be something to fill that void.
Quote from: The Black Jester on July 06, 2012, 08:09:08 PM
Quote from: OldGit on July 06, 2012, 08:02:32 PM
Quote from: meThus it seems reasonable to hope that if we can sideline religion, such unpleasantness will be reduced.
I did notice that nuance, but still respectfully disagree. I'm still not convinced that eliminating religious thinking will necessarily lead directly to even reduced human suffering. I'm thinking it's just as likely we'd find another reason to kill and torture one another.
I think human beings need to become much more self- aware, less locked in their own egos, more empathetic and compassionate, better- informed, and readier to question what they are told before the long roll call of man's inhumanity to man tapers off. Will it happen? I'm not betting on it, personally. I tend to see aggressive religiosity as more of a symptom than a cause. As I've said before, all freethinkers are atheists but not all atheists are freethinkers.
Quote from: En_Route on July 06, 2012, 08:35:14 PM
Quote from: The Black Jester on July 06, 2012, 08:09:08 PM
Quote from: OldGit on July 06, 2012, 08:02:32 PM
Quote from: meThus it seems reasonable to hope that if we can sideline religion, such unpleasantness will be reduced.
I did notice that nuance, but still respectfully disagree. I'm still not convinced that eliminating religious thinking will necessarily lead directly to even reduced human suffering. I'm thinking it's just as likely we'd find another reason to kill and torture one another.
I think human beings need to become much more self- aware, less locked in their own egos, more empathetic and compassionate, better- informed, and readier to question what they are told before the long roll call of man's inhumanity to man tapers off. Will it happen? I'm not betting on it, personally. I tend to see aggressive religiosity as more of a symptom than a cause. As I've said before, all freethinkers are atheists but not all atheists are freethinkers.
Quote from: The Black Jester on July 06, 2012, 08:09:08 PM
Quote from: OldGit on July 06, 2012, 08:02:32 PM
Quote from: meThus it seems reasonable to hope that if we can sideline religion, such unpleasantness will be reduced.
I did notice that nuance, but still respectfully disagree. I'm still not convinced that eliminating religious thinking will necessarily lead directly to even reduced human suffering. I'm thinking it's just as likely we'd find another reason to kill and torture one another.
It may be true that eliminating religious thinking will not lead directly to reducing atrocities, but it will remove the because God want it this way barrier to decent and debate.
Quote from: markmcdaniel on July 06, 2012, 08:41:12 PM
Quote from: En_Route on July 06, 2012, 08:35:14 PM
Quote from: The Black Jester on July 06, 2012, 08:09:08 PM
Quote from: OldGit on July 06, 2012, 08:02:32 PM
Quote from: meThus it seems reasonable to hope that if we can sideline religion, such unpleasantness will be reduced.
I did notice that nuance, but still respectfully disagree. I'm still not convinced that eliminating religious thinking will necessarily lead directly to even reduced human suffering. I'm thinking it's just as likely we'd find another reason to kill and torture one another.
I think human beings need to become much more self- aware, less locked in their own egos, more empathetic and compassionate, better- informed, and readier to question what they are told before the long roll call of man's inhumanity to man tapers off. Will it happen? I'm not betting on it, personally. I tend to see aggressive religiosity as more of a symptom than a cause. As I've said before, all freethinkers are atheists but not all atheists are freethinkers.
Quote from: The Black Jester on July 06, 2012, 08:09:08 PM
Quote from: OldGit on July 06, 2012, 08:02:32 PM
Quote from: meThus it seems reasonable to hope that if we can sideline religion, such unpleasantness will be reduced.
I did notice that nuance, but still respectfully disagree. I'm still not convinced that eliminating religious thinking will necessarily lead directly to even reduced human suffering. I'm thinking it's just as likely we'd find another reason to kill and torture one another.
It may be true that eliminating religious thinking will not lead directly to reducing atrocities, but it will remove the because God want it this way barrier to decent and debate.
People who believe in purported facts or concepts which are manifestly unfounded don't engage in debate , whatever their persuasion, religious or otherwise.