Happy Atheist Forum

In the Matrix movies the majority of the human race did not know that they were just battery's powering an evil super computer,my premise is what if we are all totally,completely and utterly insane,but just don't know about it (the majority of us anyway).Please forgive me for using the term we,because I know that it is very impolite to bring into question the sanity of others,especially strangers,but imagine if you will an Alien Psychiatrist with a totally objective and unbiased point of view who decides to make a friendly house call to Earth one day (I don't know where this Doctor came from,the planet Freud or Uranus did cross my mind,but the Aliens point of origination is irrelevant,because the Alien comes with no Earth oriented cultural or historical baggage).From some distance the Alien Psychiatrist determines what would appear to be 6+ billion ape like creatures elbowing for space on a severely resource limited planet,perhaps the Alien takes note of the severe psychological trauma such crowding can cause,then after secretly abducting and probing several human specimens,interrogating them (I don't know if the Alien is allowed to use water boarding),and perhaps even using special Alien techniques,such as speaking with tongues,mental telephony,and most powerful of all the super Alien mind f**k,the Alien is able to come to some conclusion as to the mental health of the planets dominant species.What would that conclusion be?

Primarily delusional.  :wink:

I wouldn't say insane but stupid seems to fit most people like a latex glove.

You could always investigate solipsism...

LOL! They've come to take me away in their spaceship! Heehee! Haahaa!

To be insane, we'd need a measuring tool that defines what is normal. What is normal?

Personally, I really do think humans are... out of touch, to say the least. I mean come on - most of us believe that somewhere "out there" is an invisible (but in our image) force that is greater than us and has a mind of its own. If that's not insane, I don't know what is!

Sorry Eris...your way behind.


That force you speak of is also known as BEER!

Good enough for me anyhow!

Quote from: "tacoma_kyle"That force you speak of is also known as BEER!

Ah yes, thanks for bringing me up to speed!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATBl4qH9I54 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATBl4qH9I54)

What would that conclusion be? We have an amazing capacity for self absorption and self deception. I'm a bit guilty of the former.

Quote from: "pagan1"In the Matrix movies the majority of the human race did not know that they were just battery's powering an evil super computer,my premise is what if we are all totally,completely and utterly insane,but just don't know about it (the majority of us anyway).Please forgive me for using the term we,because I know that it is very impolite to bring into question the sanity of others,especially strangers,but imagine if you will an Alien Psychiatrist with a totally objective and unbiased point of view who decides to make a friendly house call to Earth one day (I don't know where this Doctor came from,the planet Freud or Uranus did cross my mind,but the Aliens point of origination is irrelevant,because the Alien comes with no Earth oriented cultural or historical baggage).From some distance the Alien Psychiatrist determines what would appear to be 6+ billion ape like creatures elbowing for space on a severely resource limited planet,perhaps the Alien takes note of the severe psychological trauma such crowding can cause,then after secretly abducting and probing several human specimens,interrogating them (I don't know if the Alien is allowed to use water boarding),and perhaps even using special Alien techniques,such as speaking with tongues,mental telephony,and most powerful of all the super Alien mind f**k,the Alien is able to come to some conclusion as to the mental health of the planets dominant species.What would that conclusion be?

OK, maybe insane is a bit "over the top" but I have had this theory for some time. I would probably use some term like severely conflicted.

I even have a theory of why: every organism that survives does so by doing everything it can TO survive, plants grow thorns or other other mechanisms to keep from being eaten, simple animals develop flight instincts, etc.
Now, we get to good ole homo sapiens, this animal has survival instincts honed to a razor's edge, he/she has fear, an instinct common to mammals.
We over the generations developed the ability to "contemplate", another great survival skill. The problem is any animal that fears death AND can see it coming and its inevitability must be conflicted. We as a species have come up with various coping mechanisms but most of them not very healthy.

Haha that was sweet Eris.

Beer + Lego = Fun!  Cheers, Eris.  A radio station here in Chicago used to play this song on the air on Friday afternoons - they called it the "Friday Beer Song".

Quote from: "Marke"Now, we get to good ole homo sapiens, this animal has survival instincts honed to a razor's edge, he/she has fear, an instinct common to mammals.
We over the generations developed the ability to "contemplate", another great survival skill. The problem is any animal that fears death AND can see it coming and its inevitability must be conflicted. We as a species have come up with various coping mechanisms but most of them not very healthy.

Marke, have you read The God Part of the Brain by Matthew Alper? It takes your thoughts to fascinating depths. You might enjoy it.

Quote from: "Marke"We as a species have come up with various coping mechanisms but most of them not very healthy.

That's a fact, man! We have a zillion lousy coping mechanisms. Personally, I love mine: we will die. End of story. No do-overs, no eternal bliss or damnation. So live life to the full.

Time to go open my Balvenie 12 year old Scotch.    

Quote from: "Eris"

Quote from: "Marke"Now, we get to good ole homo sapiens, this animal has survival instincts honed to a razor's edge, he/she has fear, an instinct common to mammals.
We over the generations developed the ability to "contemplate", another great survival skill. The problem is any animal that fears death AND can see it coming and its inevitability must be conflicted. We as a species have come up with various coping mechanisms but most of them not very healthy.

Marke, have you read The God Part of the Brain by Matthew Alper? It takes your thoughts to fascinating depths. You might enjoy it.

No, I have not read it but if he expands on "my" idea then it is a must read,
thanx

Yes! yes it is!

I've had many enjoyable and painful battles with insanity myself, and after comparing myself to others, I have decided that sanity and reality are simply not the same place.

The facts that we can perceive scientifically can be largely ignored by the general public and they can still lead happy, if delusional lives.

I've read that psychologists (help me on this one Willravel and Squid if I am incorrect) use a cultural standard (among other things) when determining if a patient is delusional, so I would conclude from this sanity varies from place to place where scientific knowledge, though uncertain in some unproven areas, is fairly concrete between cultures.

Concepts that people don't want to see, like resources are finite, killing others just because they don't share your views, scientific realities, our sexual natures, violent impulses, etc. are largely hidden away by the psyche and replaced with imaginary concepts. Some of us have to create a firewall between our working minds and the nasty realities that lie there and they often substitute more tasteful imaginary beliefs for them.

I get pretty puzzled as to why one imaginary belief is any more acceptable than another.  Maybe it has something to do with human social evolution.  In general, humans are so eager to please socially we will accept a superior's belief to bond socially. Dominant beliefs are simply the delusions of dominant people.

Very well put, Lara. I've actually lectured several times on the DSM-4's take on what is or isn't delusional/schizophrenic, specifically in dealing with religion.

It's dangerous when any science makes exceptions because of the personal beliefs of those who develop it. Two examples of this are when Catholic hospitals turn down abortions and when psychologists can't diagnose those who actually have religious visions as being possibly delusional and/or schizophrenic. Many people who are considered religious could be diagnosed with any number of mental illnesses and these people could be treated except that the psychological community has refused to take an honest look at itself.

A lot of people like to talk about how religion has held back astronomy, biology, etc., but psychology is often ignored because there are surprisingly few rationalist mental health professionals who are willing to speak out.

If you look under diagnostic criteria for delusional disorder (297.1), you can see what's referred to as "grandiose type: delusions of inflated worth, power, knowledge, identity, or special relationship to a deity or famous person." This describes a great many people who are protected by "faith" who actually need help. They won't get help so long as the APA and other major organizations refuse to admit that while most religious people are simply victims of groupthink, many people are actually suffering from mental illnesses.

Science can't be about democracy. The majority aren't always right. Science is about facts.

Good points, Lara and Will.

I watched a really disturbing show some time ago (HBO special, maybe?) that followed a murder victim's family and the murderer himself through an application of the death penalty (an interesting, but not enjoyable, watch).  They give the person they're executing a chance to say final words.  He, not surprisingly, had "found Jesus".  His last statements were that he was sure that God would forgive him for his crimes, but God would not forgive the murdered people's parents for seeking vengeance.

Ignoring the capital punishment aspect (we've got another thread going on that one), I can't help but wonder if this guy was suffering from delusional disorder.  In his mind, there was something so special and unique about him that he had a special "in" with God and would be forgiven anything --- but anybody that set out to harm him was guilty of a crime so heinous that even the same forgiving God, that forgave his senseless murders, would never forgive the others (he shot and killed both the son and the daughter of a woman who were working in the woman's pawn shop --- they were on the phone with their mom when they were killed --- his only explanation for why he shot them was that a "voice" in his head said "just do it, man" --- wonderful person, BTW  :roll:  ).

I think his last statements seem to qualify him as "grandiose type: delusions of inflated worth" and "special relationship to a deity".

And I agree that probably a great many people would qualify as having this same disorder, to lesser or greater extents of course.  

As for this individual, its not that surprising that living your last moments before execution could make a person crazy, so this isn't a very typical case (I would think).  But surely the underlying opinion is abundant (I'm special, God will forgive me, but he will judge you harshly)?

umm...
all evidence says yes, while experience agrees.

Most people are ignorant, horribly miseducated and non-critical.  But millenia of religious indoctrination for the purposes of Church (and state, to the extent that they are ever separate) have made it so that most people never have the opportunity to absorb any other kind of behaviour or mindset.  Genetic differences in mental capacities and processes probably helps, too.  I mean, for most of the history of evolution, critical thought hasn't been possible much less useful.  And doubting commonly held knowledge in a primative society could be far more dangerous than the fact that many of these common 'facts' were wrong.

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/media/library/imagination

QuoteOur grip on reality is slim, says UCL scientist

The human race suffers from a moderate case of apophenia, wherein we tend to see patterns and meaning in random, meaningless data.

This pattern-seeking came about as a safety mechanism, meaning oversensitivity to patterns is better than undersensitivity. It's better to be wrong about the presence of a predator hiding in the bushes than to be wrong about the absence of a predator in the bushes. Like the flock of birds that scatters at the slightest noise, we're better safe than sorry.

This apophenia coupled with our vivid imaginations and our cerebral need to organize and centralize concepts has led to the development of superstitions and religion.

A more tentative theory: humans are pedomorphic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedomorphosis).

Fact 1. As humans domesticate animals, the animals become more and more juvenile, retaining childhood traits into adulthood. Dogs look and behave more like puppies, cats look and behave more like kittens, sheep look and behave more like ewes, when compared to their wild counterparts.

Fact 2. Some scientists think humans are pedomorphic, implying that in domesticating other animals, we also inadvertently domesticated ourselves. We have thin skulls, short jaws, and flat faces, and bulbous foreheads compared to other primates. And perhaps since we look more like juveniles, we also behave like juveniles.

Fact 3. Anyone who has had puppies, kittens, or even children knows that you do not have to teach them how to "play." They intrinsically understand it. They have a firm grasp of the hypothetical. Children, when told what a fireman is, will then pretend to be a fireman. Cats and dogs will chase and frolic, simulating hunting and fighting. If you've been bitten during play you know these animals are pulling their punches -- they know it's just for fun.


With these facts in mind, could it be that humans, as a symptom of our pedomorphia, have retained that instinct to "pretend" into adulthood, resulting in beliefs in imaginary friends called spirits, demons, angels, and gods?

I'm glad someone else finally reliased your all insane. I've been trying to convince people for years that I'm the only sane person in the world, they just end up giving me a crazy look, which can only be expected since they are in fact crazy. I have irefutable (I think i mispelled that one) proof, Since you are all crazy how can you posibley judge my or anyone elses sanity, and since I'm sane I actualy can judge everones sanity and find you all freaking nuts (wow this is similar to the cicular logic religions use) I want you all to remember I'm a left footed potato ninja (if that doesen't make sense it's ok your crazy). If you see any spelling or grammer errors your wrong thats just your mental defect or I've been awake for entirely to long

HELLO  to  every one here , i m  a sikh ,   i want to introduce  you   sikh way  of life , plz  kindly  don't use  any uncivilized   words for  my   guru , religion , be  a good atheist.

Quotequestion  Is the entire Human Race Insane?

no dear entire human race is not insane   , insanes are very  rare , who saw  himself bad and others good  are only rare insane ,

guru nanak dev ji founded sikhism ,
on seeing  nanak in lords colour  , ppl  start saying that  nanak gone insane , following  is the explanation given  by  guru nanak himself  in our holy book (living guru ) ang ie page 991
ਕੋਈ ਆਖੈ ਭà©,ਤਨਾ ਕੋ ਕਹੈ ਬੇਤਾਲਾ ॥
Some say poor Nanak is a spirit, others say that he is a demon

ਕੋਈ ਆਖੈ ਆਦਮੀ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਵੇਚਾਰਾ ॥੧॥
Some call him a mere mortal; O, poor Nanak! ||1||

guru nanak replied


ਭਇਆ ਦਿਵਾਨਾ ਸਾਹ ਕਾ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਬਉਰਾਨਾ ॥
yes Nanak has gone insane, after his Lord, the King.


ਹਉ ਹਰਿ ਬਿਨੁ à¨...ਵਰੁ ਨ ਜਾਨਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
I know of none other than the Lord. ||1||Pause||


ਤਉ ਦੇਵਾਨਾ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਜਾ ਭੈ ਦੇਵਾਨਾ ਹੋਇ ॥
He alone is known to be insane, when he goes insane with the Fear of God.


ਏਕੀ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਬਾਹਰਾ ਦà©,ਜਾ à¨...ਵਰੁ ਨ ਜਾਣੈ ਕੋਇ ॥੨॥
He recognizes none other than the One Lord and Master. ||2||


ਤਉ ਦੇਵਾਨਾ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਜਾ ਏਕਾ ਕਾਰ ਕਮਾਇ ॥
He alone is known to be insane, if he works for the One Lord.


ਹੁਕਮੁ ਪਛਾਣੈ ਖਸਮ ਕਾ ਦà©,ਜੀ à¨...ਵਰ ਸਿਆਣਪ ਕਾਇ ॥੩॥
Recognizing the Hukam, the Command of his Lord and Master, what other cleverness is there? ||3||


ਤਉ ਦੇਵਾਨਾ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਜਾ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਧਰੇ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥
He alone is known to be insane, when he falls in love with his Lord and Master.


ਮੰਦਾ ਜਾਣੈ ਆਪ ਕਉ à¨...ਵਰੁ ਭਲਾ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ॥੪॥੭॥
He sees himself as bad, and all the rest of the world as good. ||4||


with  regards
,humbly
gursikh

Quote from: "GURSIKH"HELLO  to  every one here , i m  a sikh ,   i want to introduce  you   sikh way  of life , plz  kindly  don't use  any uncivilized   words for  my   guru , religion , be  a good atheist.

Hello. We do have an introductions forum somewhere, you know... viewforum.php?f=10 (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewforum.php?f=10)

That said, if you want to tell people about the sikh way of life, I think you should start a new thread in "Religion".

thanx ASMODEAN , i will  go to religion,

i can't  write  GOD bless u  in this forum ,

bye

Quote from: "GURSIKH"i can't  write  GOD bless u  in this forum

Personally, I have no use for a blessing.  

Hello, gursikh. Welcome to the forum. You are welcome to make posts, just make sure to try to post them in the proper areas of the forum. Feel free to look around the forum and become familiar with the way it is set up. If you have questions, please ask. We'll be happy to answer any questions you have.

hmmm... Sikh huh?  I wonder if that means you have a "Sikh" sense of humor?

*hand gets slapped*  

I know, I'm being a "bad" atheist.