Here in the UK our venerated leader David Cameron has aired his indignation (albeit selective) about the use of legal tax avoidance schemes
which potentially enable entertainers to earn millions while playing negligible tax. Mr.Cameron said of such schemes that although legal (and tax avoidance per se is not against the law,as opposed to tax evasion which includes telling lies, suppressing facts or failing to provide required information) they are immoral. Any takers?
Quote from: En_Route on June 22, 2012, 11:18:43 PM
Here in the UK our venerated leader David Cameron has aired his indignation (albeit selective) about the use of legal tax avoidance schemes
which potentially enable entertainers to earn millions while playing negligible tax. Mr.Cameron said of such schemes that although legal (and tax avoidance per se is not against the law,as opposed to tax evasion which includes telling lies, suppressing facts or failing to provide required information) they are immoral. Any takers?
Define "moral".
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on June 22, 2012, 11:31:18 PM
Quote from: En_Route on June 22, 2012, 11:18:43 PM
Here in the UK our venerated leader David Cameron has aired his indignation (albeit selective) about the use of legal tax avoidance schemes
which potentially enable entertainers to earn millions while playing negligible tax. Mr.Cameron said of such schemes that although legal (and tax avoidance per se is not against the law,as opposed to tax evasion which includes telling lies, suppressing facts or failing to provide required information) they are immoral. Any takers?
Define "moral".
I can't. But I am sure you can!
It seems pretty pointless moaning about the morals of the thing, unless it's to show the public he's on the side of the common guy and not the rich. He should make more effective tax laws. Cameron has rejected an international financial transaction tax, that would be one option.
The law is not morality. If the government leave loopholes, people will take advantage. They say the problem is that UK tax law is very complicated, so as fast as one hole is blocked, another is found.
Moral + Government = Does not compute
Quote from: OldGit on June 23, 2012, 07:39:45 PM
The law is not morality. If the government leave loopholes, people will take advantage. They say the problem is that UK tax law is very complicated, so as fast as one hole is blocked, another is found.
Tax law in every developed country is Byzantine. It is hard to nullify tax avoidance completely but it is possible to make it very risky for the perpetrator so as to deter such schemes and to have a good chance of defeating those that actually are implemented. Two tools that could assist in this end are retrospective law ( backdating new laws to stop a scheme working) and a general rule blocking avoidance schemes without going into specifics. Neither have been adopted ,with one rare exception, by the present government, so Cameron's fulminations look pretty hollow. There is a move towards a general anti- avoidance rule, but it looks like this will be a watered- down version of the kind of rule which applies in other jurisdictions. Vested interests of course will have their say in ensuring that is the case.
GST is one tax the wealthy can't legally avoid, nor can criminals. Everyone pays GST.
Quote from: Stevil on June 23, 2012, 08:48:45 PM
GST is one tax the wealthy can't legally avoid, nor can criminals. Everyone pays GST.
On what they buy usually- unless it's on the black market. The wealthy can of course emigrate to low- tax jurisdictions and most of their accumulated wealth will never be touched. The other issue with GST is that it is a regressive tax, and hiking up the rates would penalise the poorer members of society.
Quote from: En_Route on June 23, 2012, 09:09:42 PM
The other issue with GST is that it is a regressive tax, and hiking up the rates would penalise the poorer members of society.
The rich spend more, thus they pay more GST tax.
I'm not a big fan of taxing the rich through the roof. The rich then leave the country and start up businesses else where.
The middle income earners have little incentive to make it big.
The poor miss out on jobs
Quote from: Stevil on June 23, 2012, 10:43:30 PM
Quote from: En_Route on June 23, 2012, 09:09:42 PM
The other issue with GST is that it is a regressive tax, and hiking up the rates would penalise the poorer members of society.
The rich spend more, thus they pay more GST tax.
I'm not a big fan of taxing the rich through the roof. The rich then leave the country and start up businesses else where.
The middle income earners have little incentive to make it big.
The poor miss out on jobs
What determines the regressivity of a GST (VAT in Europe) is the extent to which the wealthy pay proportionately less as a percentage of their income compared to the poorer members of society. In the UK there is no GST on food or children's clothing,which mitigates the regressive effect. In general it is accepted that if you operate a GST you need to make counterbalancing transfers of income by way of welfare benefits to the less well-off.
They need wipe away all the shit that has developed over the years in my opinion and to start a new clean slate when it come to tax . Its become far too convoluted and unnecessary. Have a flat rate of income tax for everyone regardless of amount earned except for those below a livable wage, if you avoid it you get one hell of a legal slap, simple. Get rid of tax the rich more concept, it's a load of rubbish in my opinion as they pay more tax anyway and creates more of a rich/poor divide. Sometimes it seems to me the ones that want to create that divide are the self-labeled poor and whilst that still happens you are going to get the same problems time and time again.
I seriously doubt Jimmy Carr (and other celebrities) actually know how to avoid tax and pretty much sure it was his accountant as that's how he/she makes their money.
Quote from: OldGit on June 23, 2012, 07:39:45 PM
The law is not morality. If the government leave loopholes, people will take advantage. They say the problem is that UK tax law is very complicated, so as fast as one hole is blocked, another is found.
Exactly...the Law is not morality - except on the Bible.
1 Peter 2:13-17
Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human authority: whether to the emperor, as the supreme authority, 14 or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. 15 For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish people. 16 Live as free people, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as God's slaves. 17 Show proper respect to everyone, love the family of believers, fear God, honor the emperor.
Quote from: En_Route on June 22, 2012, 11:56:17 PM
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on June 22, 2012, 11:31:18 PM
Define "moral".
I can't. But I am sure you can!
According to my fairytale book, I can start...but this is HAF and not in the Religion section. ;)
Quote from: Happy_Is_Good on June 24, 2012, 02:17:38 AM
live as God's slaves,... fear God
Oh how I wish I could believe in such a wonderful creature.
Tax laws other than GST do seem to be for the poor to middle income earners, the wealthy don't pay tax. Their accountants see to that.
It is very utopian and socialist way of thinking to impose higher taxes on the rich. Problem however is, that in reality these schemes never work, because the rich have good tax consultants, who know all tricks of how to avoid paying too much taxes.
I do however believe, that the wealthy don't mind to pay tax, as long as they are taxed reasonably. Impose draconian taxes and the rich and famous move elsewhere. Why do you think that Michael Schumacher lives in Switzerland? Simply, because the Swiss offered him a much better tax-rate. It is a win-win situation for everyone (with the exception of the German tax authorities).