I was recently looking through some memes when i came across the "atheist defenition: the belief that nothing came from nothing, etc" and there was a response "ignorant defenition: not knowing the difference between atheism and nihilism." So i decided to google what nihilism was actually and while reading through the different sects of it, I found I have a sort of existential nihilism in me. For anyone that doesn't know, that means the belief that there is no purpose of man kind. And from my understanding, I don't think there really is. Those little bacteria billions of years ago just evolved into humans overtime and now we're here, but I don't see that we as a species have any role in what the universe has planned. I'm not saying that man kind cannot do great/horrific things, i'm just saying that since I don't believe that there's a god, I don't believe we evolved to have some "purpose" besides live and die. I'm still a newby to the subject so i'd love to hear what you guys think.
Quote from: Xiilent on June 14, 2012, 07:06:31 PM
I was recently looking through some memes when i came across the "atheist defenition: the belief that nothing came from nothing, etc" and there was a response "ignorant defenition: not knowing the difference between atheism and nihilism." So i decided to google what nihilism was actually and while reading through the different sects of it, I found I have a sort of existential nihilism in me. For anyone that doesn't know, that means the belief that there is no purpose of man kind. And from my understanding, I don't think there really is. Those little bacteria billions of years ago just evolved into humans overtime and now we're here, but I don't see that we as a species have any role in what the universe has planned. I'm not saying that man kind cannot do great/horrific things, i'm just saying that since I don't believe that there's a god, I don't believe we evolved to have some "purpose" besides live and die. I'm still a newby to the subject so i'd love to hear what you guys think.
The question of purpose is a fascinating one. I agree that, as far as we can tell, our existence here serves no ulterior purpose.Personally I don't think that the idea of an ultimate "purpose" makes much sense, because you can always push the quest for meaning up another level. So if we say our purpose is to improve our species (not that I would say that) the obvious rejoinder is-well what is the purpose of improving our species?, and so and so on. I would baulkat the notion that the universe has planned anything- it's just there, again, so far as we can tell.
No purpose in the "grand scheme of things" but we make our own if we like. That's my take on it.
Some people, it seems, (even many atheists), believe it is their purpose to be moral and some even believe it is their purpose to stop others being immoral.
Quote from: Crow on June 14, 2012, 09:04:50 PM
No purpose in the "grand scheme of things" but we make our own if we like. That's my take on it.
That's the classic existential position. I personally think in terms of my personal goals rather than any overarching purpose,but in practical terms that's probably an over-nice distinction. It's the "I didn't ask to be here but here I am,, so how do I make the best of it?" school of thought.
Quote from: Crow on June 14, 2012, 09:04:50 PM
No purpose in the "grand scheme of things" but we make our own if we like. That's my take on it.
That's a huge question. How can something from nothing ponder where it came from and what, if any, is its purpose when the creator of the something, if you will, is nothing?
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on June 14, 2012, 10:54:05 PM
That's a huge question. How can something from nothing ponder where it came from and what, if any, is its purpose when the creator of the something, if you will, is nothing?
What relevance does a creator (if one exists) have with regards to the ability of systems to ponder?
For example if you look to evolution you can see that complex systems developed from non complex systems, we are much more complex and "smarter" than our distant ancestors. Our creator could simply be unintelligent autonomous forces e.g. gravity, electromagnitism, nuclear forces. Can you prove otherwise?
Quote from: Stevil on June 14, 2012, 11:00:33 PM
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on June 14, 2012, 10:54:05 PM
That's a huge question. How can something from nothing ponder where it came from and what, if any, is its purpose when the creator of the something, if you will, is nothing?
What relevance does a creator (if one exists) have with regards to the ability of systems to ponder?
None really, but how can you deny the existence of a creator? We came from something. Something created the "spark" and I'm not even speaking about God or a Creator...but whatever that something was, be it even a reaction. The first reaction is the creator...in this sense.
Quote from: Stevil on June 14, 2012, 11:00:33 PM
For example if you look to evolution you can see that complex systems developed from non complex systems, we are much more complex and "smarter" than our distant ancestors. Our creator could simply be unintelligent autonomous forces e.g. gravity, electromagnitism, nuclear forces. Can you prove otherwise?
I'm not trying to prove anything. I'm simply stating that it's a huge question. A question, maybe just to me, which is profoundly deep. How can a thinking, reasoning, life-form that came from nothing create abstract thoughts--that nothing apart from this one life-form so far, has evolved to do?
I get the feeling you just like to poke at me for being a Christian and holding certain thoughts. Is it impossible in your mind for me to have thoughts apart from "God" along with the atheist?
What spark do you mean?
Quote from: Ali on June 14, 2012, 11:25:52 PM
What spark do you mean?
The spark, so to speak, that began evolution.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on June 14, 2012, 11:27:06 PM
Quote from: Ali on June 14, 2012, 11:25:52 PM
What spark do you mean?
The spark, so to speak, that began evolution.
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.re-action.com%2Fforum%2FMy-allspark-cube2-sm.jpg&hash=8a8450db528407d471e2d5b9ac4c6a1c77832f29)
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on June 14, 2012, 11:24:18 PM
None really, but how can you deny the existence of a creator? We came from something. Something created the "spark" and I'm not even speaking about God or a Creator...but whatever that something was, be it even a reaction. The first reaction is the creator...in this sense.
I have no belief in a one off spark.
I highly suspect the very nature of "nothing" means that there will always be "something" even if the sum total of "something" exactly equals "nothing". I hope this makes sense. It does to me, but then again I know what thinking goes behind this statement.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on June 14, 2012, 11:24:18 PM
I'm not trying to prove anything. I'm simply stating that it's a huge question. A question, maybe just to me, which is profoundly deep. How can a thinking, reasoning, life-form that came from nothing create abstract thoughts--that nothing apart from this one life-form so far, has evolved to do?
Yes it is an interesting question, one that humans don't yet know the answer to.
But personally I don't feel the need to make the assumptions:
- Humans are the only intelligent material beings in our universe
- Our universe is the only one in existence
- Self awareness, consciousness requires a creator with self awareness and consciousness
We all have our way of pondering the answers, you presume god, I presume infinity and autonomous, eternal forces. We are both presumptuous :-)
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on June 14, 2012, 11:24:18 PM
I get the feeling you just like to poke at me for being a Christian and holding certain thoughts. Is it impossible in your mind for me to have thoughts apart from "God" along with the atheist?
I don't try to poke fun at you. I don't mind people being Christians, I don't mind that you are a Christian. I don't like the intollerance and oppression that some Christians bring upon society, but you have a good understanding of keeping Christian morality separate for societies laws, so I really like that about you.
I do poke at your mind because I am putting in genuine effort to try and understand Christian thinking, but to date it is a bridge too far for me.
Quote from: Stevil on June 14, 2012, 11:39:43 PM
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on June 14, 2012, 11:24:18 PM
None really, but how can you deny the existence of a creator? We came from something. Something created the "spark" and I'm not even speaking about God or a Creator...but whatever that something was, be it even a reaction. The first reaction is the creator...in this sense.
I have no belief in a one off spark.
I highly suspect the very nature of "nothing" means that there will always be "something" even if the sum total of "something" exactly equals "nothing". I hope this makes sense. It does to me, but then again I know what thinking goes behind this statement.
Nuh'uh! You'll have to expand on this one please.
Quote from: Stevil on June 14, 2012, 11:39:43 PM
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on June 14, 2012, 11:24:18 PM
None really, but how can you deny the existence of a creator? We came from something. Something created the "spark" and I'm not even speaking about God or a Creator...but whatever that something was, be it even a reaction. The first reaction is the creator...in this sense.
I have no belief in a one off spark.
I highly suspect the very nature of "nothing" means that there will always be "something" even if the sum total of "something" exactly equals "nothing". I hope this makes sense. It does to me, but then again I know what thinking goes behind this statement.
Probably the type of thinking that hurts my head and therefore I am not "good" at.
Quote from: Stevil on June 14, 2012, 11:39:43 PM
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on June 14, 2012, 11:24:18 PM
I'm not trying to prove anything. I'm simply stating that it's a huge question. A question, maybe just to me, which is profoundly deep. How can a thinking, reasoning, life-form that came from nothing create abstract thoughts--that nothing apart from this one life-form so far, has evolved to do?
Yes it is an interesting question, one that humans don't yet know the answer to.
But personally I don't feel the need to make the assumptions:
- Humans are the only intelligent material beings in our universe
- Our universe is the only one in existence
- Self awareness, consciousness requires a creator with self awareness and consciousness
I've not presumed my belief here, but simply made the statement that I am in awe of something, evolved from whatever nothing/something you agree to, having evolved this self awareness and deeper thinking than simply survival.
Quote from: Stevil on June 14, 2012, 11:39:43 PM
We all have our way of pondering the answers, you presume god, I presume infinity and autonomous, eternal forces. We are both presumptuous :-)
Yes. I agree.
Quote from: Stevil on June 14, 2012, 11:39:43 PM
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on June 14, 2012, 11:24:18 PM
I get the feeling you just like to poke at me for being a Christian and holding certain thoughts. Is it impossible in your mind for me to have thoughts apart from "God" along with the atheist?
I don't try to poke fun at you. I don't mind people being Christians, I don't mind that you are a Christian. I don't like the intollerance and oppression that some Christians bring upon society, but you have a good understanding of keeping Christian morality separate for societies laws, so I really like that about you.
I do poke at your mind because I am putting in genuine effort to try and understand Christian thinking, but to date it is a bridge too far for me.
Every question seems like an attack. I'll try and view it as you state here. :)
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on June 14, 2012, 11:27:06 PM
Quote from: Ali on June 14, 2012, 11:25:52 PM
What spark do you mean?
The spark, so to speak, that began evolution.
The problem with the prime mover argument is of course that it goes on forever. Who created the creator who created the spark? And so on. The theists say it is God, the creator who came from nothing which rather destroys the logic they are trying to establish. There is a further problem with this kind of deductive reason in that we are assuming the laws of cause and effect that we observe in the natural world we inhabit must hold true for everything. In fact we already know that at the quantum level, we are simply not mentally equipped to envisage what is going on and we have to resort to analogies drawn from our world.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on June 14, 2012, 11:55:37 PM
Every question seems like an attack. I'll try and view it as you state here. :)
Yes, I know you see me in this light, as an aggressive, angry person.
Unfortunately via the written word, much of the communication is lost.
I am very objective, mostly unemotional. Just inquisitive and skeptical/free thinking (meaning that I always listen to others with much doubt and need to form my own opinion based on my own reasoning/logic).
I certainly find religion fascinating and am often left in a position of disbelief with regards to how the other person has come to their conclusion, do they really believe what they are telling me?
People are entitled to believe what they want, the problem is me and my inability to understand them.
Quote from: Scissorlegs on June 14, 2012, 11:54:39 PM
Quote from: Stevil on June 14, 2012, 11:39:43 PM
I highly suspect the very nature of "nothing" means that there will always be "something" even if the sum total of "something" exactly equals "nothing". I hope this makes sense. It does to me, but then again I know what thinking goes behind this statement.
Nuh'uh! You'll have to expand on this one please.
It is postulated that the sum total of all the energy in our Universe is 0
Positive and negative energy cancel each other out. So it is possible that the sum total of all that exists within infinite space = 0.
We are literally nothing, although broken down to the micro level (sub universe) it appears that there is something (galaxies, solar systems, planets, people, atoms...).
But the very nature of nothing might mean that it is impossible to have literally nothing, maybe this is why we have quantum fluctuations, maybe this is the very reason why things pop in and out of existence all the time, everywhere.
If this is correct then there never was a point in history where there was absolutely nothing.
Of course, trying to think backward along a linear cause and effect path would mean that you need to go backwards an infinite amount of time (however you define time). So thinking about how we get to now, you might suggest an infinite amount of "time" must have happened first, thus you might conclude that we never would have got to "now". This stuff can do your head in.
I think the only thing that is important is that we are here now, we live in the "Now", so we need to start at a point relative to now, possibly that could be related to the initial big bang of our universe.
I do like to assume infinity, this makes it clear to me that what goes on in space is perpetual thus no system or state is forever. "Now" is most likely some kind of perpetual equilibrium. Black holes must stop being black holes at some point. They cannot go on forever collecting mass and energy, that mass and energy must escape somehow. A big bang and expanding universe would be a nice result of a black hole which has reached some critical mass point. So I also conclude that there are universes all over the place, throughout space. We just can't see them due to the limitation of the speed of light as well as the distance they necessarily must be away from us. Maybe it is their gravity which is causing our own universe to continually expand rather than contract as it otherwise would. Maybe some of the background radiation that is present is part of past universes (not all because of our big bang). Maybe dark matter/dark energy is what happens to energy over a huge amount of time once it eventually "dies" (becomes inert) or maybe dark matter/dark energy is simply the result of an incorrect assumption.
Anyway, this is an unfounded unbased theory of my unscientific mind. Maybe it has flaws, I don't know. But I don't think we have to assume an intelligent creator that had knowledge before there was existence, that existed before there was existence, that is made of nothing and can causally think things through before there is the notion of time.
Quote from: Stevil on June 14, 2012, 11:00:33 PM
What relevance does a creator (if one exists) have with regards to the ability of systems to ponder?
For example if you look to evolution you can see that complex systems developed from non complex systems, we are much more complex and "smarter" than our distant ancestors. Our creator could simply be unintelligent autonomous forces e.g. gravity, electromagnitism, nuclear forces. Can you prove otherwise?
Well we may have actually been more intelligent in our evolutionary forms prior to modern humans due to the reduction in brain size, as is seen with cro-magon skulls, also the same is true with neanderthal skulls and is strong evidence that cro-magon and neanderthals interbred. So our reduction in brain size might have been more beneficial to us as a species as we were more reliant on each other.
I don't really know what I am trying to say to be honest I just fancy writing so this is a bit of a ramble. The "spark" concept just doesn't really hold any weight any more with our ever expanding knowledge on our evolutionary past. What was the spark concept again? something along the lines of around ten thousand years ago there was a leap forward in technology and there must have been some spark that created it and the human soul or something? This is poor hang on to a god (im not saying its impossible), you can look at any of the technological leaps forward all it takes is one person to figure out the basics of farming. Sometimes its the most simple ideas are the hardest to discover because the signs are so subtle we ignore them, and the technology for the method of production has been found with other forms of the homo genus, and the image of other species . The other "spark" concept for evolution could have simply been something as simple as an asteroid, it doesn't need to be manipulated from anywhere, it may even just need the right elements temperature and time.
We don't actually know and may never know, you might be right, maybe the matrix is right, maybe the scene from the end of the first men in black film is correct, maybe the guy with the crazy hair on the discovery channel is correct, there are just as many different theories as the human brain can think of and I have just highlighted some of the most obvious, the thing is nobody knows and I am cool with that, people can talk about god and aliens and robots and multidimensional interaction and whatever else but without any solid evidence its just talk, sure its interesting but that's all it will be to me, a bit of fun.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on June 14, 2012, 11:27:06 PM
The spark, so to speak, that began evolution.
My first instinct when I read this was the lightning bolt that struck that pool of goo billions of years ago and began the process of amino acids forming into proteins, thus forming life. Maybe I'm thinking too literally :)
Quote from: Stevil on June 15, 2012, 01:13:45 AM
Of course, trying to think backward along a linear cause and effect path would mean that you need to go backwards an infinite amount of time (however you define time). So thinking about how we get to now, you might suggest an infinite amount of "time" must have happened first, thus you might conclude that we never would have got to "now". This stuff can do your head in.
The only other time my mind has been blown this much, was when I saw a picture of both actors that played Starbuck inside of a Starbucks!
Quote from: Genericguy on June 15, 2012, 08:31:23 AM
The only other time my mind has been blown this much, was when I saw a picture of both actors that played Starbuck inside of a Starbucks!
Just a picture, imagine if you had seen them both in Starbucks - mind fucked.