China to launch manned spacecraft in June (http://phys.org/news/2012-06-china-spacecraft-june.html)
QuoteChina will launch a spacecraft this month to conduct its first manned space docking, state media said Saturday, the latest step in a plan aimed at giving the country a permanent space station by 2020.
China may not be the fastest but it is determined and resourceful.
Hopefully this will serve as a wake up call for the American space program.
Competition seems to be the major motivator for space travel. And while progress IS being made, do we think that should be encouraged, Mark?
I'm sure most of us wish the determined and resourceful Chinese luck and continued progress. This is certainly a praiseworthy achievement (assuming its successful) and I don't want to take anything away from them. But it's still terminally near-sighted of all space agencies not to be colluding. Dividing the collective human financial resources dedicated to shooting for the same goal is pretty immature of a race hoping for expansion into the solar system and beyond. Take a step back people and see how ridiculously counterprogressive this is. National pride over self preservation!? How very Human!
Now tell me there's hope for the human species... Sheesh, I just wanna bang their heads together.
Quote from: Scissorlegs on June 10, 2012, 08:51:54 AM
Competition seems to be the major motivator for space travel. And while progress IS being made, do we think that should be encouraged, Mark?
I'm sure most of us wish the determined and resourceful Chinese luck and continued progress. This is certainly a praiseworthy achievement (assuming its successful) and I don't want to take anything away from them. But it's still terminally near-sighted of all space agencies not to be colluding. Dividing the collective human financial resources dedicated to shooting for the same goal is pretty immature of a race hoping for expansion into the solar system and beyond. Take a step back people and see how ridiculously counterprogressive this is. National pride over self preservation!? How very Human!
Now tell me there's hope for the human species... Sheesh, I just wanna bang their heads together.
I agree with much that you are saying. There is much to be said for competition though. It may be wasteful. but it can and does produce spectacular results. Until such a time that nations are able to put collective interests ahead of national interests the competitive model is the one we must use.
China actually did try to be a part of the International Space Station, but was turned down due to objects from the US. Whether they were legitimate objections, I don't know. But I agree with Mark here, competition is good. It's the reason we got off our asses and went to the moon.
Quote from: Firebird on June 10, 2012, 06:36:08 PM
China actually did try to be a part of the International Space Station, but was turned down due to objects from the US. Whether they were legitimate objections, I don't know. But I agree with Mark here, competition is good. It's the reason we got off our asses and went to the moon.
The Chinese mind set is not as competitive as the American mind set. China marches to its own drumbeat, it always has and it probably always will. If the Chinese think there is value in something they will do it, if not they won't. The really don't care what anybody else does or thinks.
NASA are forbidden by law to engage in technical exchanges with Beijing and this was the stumbling block. And while it is possible for Congress to pass exceptions they declined to do so. The two parties are currently in 'discussions' to resolve the roadblock. Meanwhile, as technical details of the docking mechanisms and other systems were kept secret from China, none of the hardware is compatible for any future collaboration. EDIT: This refers to the ISS.
I'm thinking 'cutting off your nose to spite your face'. :-\
I understand that competition was a motivator in previous specific endeavours. It is no secret that safety and protocol were overlooked in the interest of national pride in the race to the moon. This irresponsible attitude doesn't create forward-looking science and technology. It blinkeredly fulfils a very confined brief with no consideration of cost or sustainability.
A dedicated collaborative effort not only pools resources but eliminates detrimental vanity.
The problem with technical exchanges is that such exchanges wind up being used by Chinese industry.
Quote from: markmcdaniel on June 11, 2012, 10:08:06 AM
The problem with technical exchanges is that such exchanges wind up being used by Chinese industry.
Why is that a problem?
Exchange means... exchange. Is the US so arrogant as to assume they have nothing to learn from the Chinese?
Quote from: Scissorlegs on June 11, 2012, 01:25:00 PM
Why is that a problem?
Exchange means... exchange. Is the US so arrogant as to assume they have nothing to learn from the Chinese?
Have you met any americans lately? :P
Quote from: markmcdaniel on June 11, 2012, 10:08:06 AM
The problem with technical exchanges is that such exchanges wind up being used by Chinese industry.
What else you going to export, its not like you can export manufacturing to the Chinese. Besides China has a better relationship with Russia (who help NASA astronauts to the ISS by the way) so I wouldn't be surprised if they ignored America all together. They don't really need America for technical exchange as they are investing like crazy in the sciences, engineering, and design at the moment plus China have probably the best reverse engineering capabilities going.
Quote from: Guardian85 on June 11, 2012, 01:31:34 PM
Quote from: Scissorlegs on June 11, 2012, 01:25:00 PM
Why is that a problem?
Exchange means... exchange. Is the US so arrogant as to assume they have nothing to learn from the Chinese?
Have you met any americans lately? :P
Yup. Americans are just as bad with pride, only Chinese at least have brain power to back it up.
Quote from: Crow on June 11, 2012, 01:47:58 PM
Quote from: markmcdaniel on June 11, 2012, 10:08:06 AM
The problem with technical exchanges is that such exchanges wind up being used by Chinese industry.
What else you going to export, its not like you can export manufacturing to the Chinese. Besides China has a better relationship with Russia (who help NASA astronauts to the ISS by the way) so I wouldn't be surprised if they ignored America all together. They don't really need America for technical exchange as they are investing like crazy in the sciences, engineering, and design at the moment plus China have probably the best reverse engineering capabilities going.
Yes, but they're all sending their kids to schools in the US to learn all that engineering. We still have all the knowledge and a better higher education system, as well as a better system for harnessing that knowledge into a product within industry. Imagine if we gave those PhD's from China an automatic green card; how many of them would actually go back? That right there is a lost opportunity.
Mark makes a very valid point. China doesn't give a shit about any kind of patent protection, and will steal other people's research and ideas as much as they possibly can. They're constantly attempting to hack into our government and private computers to steal knowledge that they can use. Like it or not, China and the US are frienemies and have to be wary of each other.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on June 12, 2012, 12:14:02 AM
Yup. Americans are just as bad with pride, only Chinese at least have brain power to back it up.
I completely disagree with this. Who invented the internet, Facebook, Apple, the space shuttle, the Dragon Capsule that just went to the IIS, etc? The Chinese have great potential, but also a long way to go before they catch up with the US, and that's only if the population they exploit and repress doesn't rise up at some point.
Quote from: Firebird on June 12, 2012, 12:33:34 AM
Quote from: Crow on June 11, 2012, 01:47:58 PM
Quote from: markmcdaniel on June 11, 2012, 10:08:06 AM
The problem with technical exchanges is that such exchanges wind up being used by Chinese industry.
What else you going to export, its not like you can export manufacturing to the Chinese. Besides China has a better relationship with Russia (who help NASA astronauts to the ISS by the way) so I wouldn't be surprised if they ignored America all together. They don't really need America for technical exchange as they are investing like crazy in the sciences, engineering, and design at the moment plus China have probably the best reverse engineering capabilities going.
Yes, but they're all sending their kids to schools in the US to learn all that engineering. We still have all the knowledge and a better higher education system, as well as a better system for harnessing that knowledge into a product within industry. Imagine if we gave those PhD's from China an automatic green card; how many of them would actually go back? That right there is a lost opportunity.
Mark makes a very valid point. China doesn't give a shit about any kind of patent protection, and will steal other people's research and ideas as much as they possibly can. They're constantly attempting to hack into our government and private computers to steal knowledge that they can use. Like it or not, China and the US are frienemies and have to be wary of each other.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on June 12, 2012, 12:14:02 AM
Yup. Americans are just as bad with pride, only Chinese at least have brain power to back it up.
I completely disagree with this. Who invented the internet, Facebook, Apple, the space shuttle, the Dragon Capsule that just went to the IIS, etc? The Chinese have great potential, but also a long way to go before they catch up with the US, and that's only if the population they exploit and repress doesn't rise up at some point.
Bill gates has done a lot, but all those parts are probably built in China.
not to mention Japan is ahead of us by two decades in technology. So..
Quote from: Firebird on June 12, 2012, 12:33:34 AMThe Chinese have great potential, but also a long way to go before they catch up with the US
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.easyfreesmileys.com%2Fsmileys%2Flol-045.gif&hash=e59144468852ea23bd27e323a0b5b8b2ec9c5782)
OMFG. The US propaganda machine has worked its magic on you... why is it that its only the Americans who believe that?
Quote from: Scissorlegs on June 12, 2012, 01:15:25 AM
OMFG. The US propaganda machine has worked its magic on you... why is it that its only the Americans who believe that?
Based on what? How is anything that I cited above not true? I resent the implication that I'm somehow "brainwashed" because I'm American. Proud, yes, but I've certainly criticized my own country many times on these forums. If you think I'm wrong, say why and I'll be happy to debate you.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on June 12, 2012, 12:58:23 AM
Bill gates has done a lot, but all those parts are probably built in China.
not to mention Japan is ahead of us by two decades in technology. So..
Yes, China is ahead of us in manufacturing output. Part of the reason is that they pay their workers extremely poorly and make them work 18 hours a day. Another reason is that the Chinese manipulate their currency so that it's artificially low against the US dollar. That doesn't prove anything in terms of societal advancement; if anything, it shows how corrupt and repressive they are.
Japan has accomplished quite a bit, especially with cars, microelectronics, etc. I admire them very much, and I've always bought Japanese cars. At the same time, saying they're "ahead of us by two decades" is not accurate either, and few people would argue otherwise. We certainly compete with them in many markets, which is fine by me.
We can learn a lot from these countries, especially in terms of primary schooling. Yes, my country has thrown its arrogance around unnecessarily so, and I've spoken up in protest when that's happened. But reports of our demise are greatly exaggerated.
[Firebird]
They really aren't far behind at all, the education system is bringing in leading industry experts as they are willing to pay for it. Sure there further education isn't as good as what you would find in the ivy league colleges but when the students are coming in with a higher level of education and leaving with top marks it doesn't really matter as that knowledge will just go straight back into China (technology transfer). They are far away from creating anything such as silicon valley but prior to the 1950's Manchester was the world hub of technological innovation and it didn't take much for that to change. You just need to look at the amount of science journals and citations being published in the key areas of science even though the quality isn't as good it is increasing at a phenomenal rate.
The power shift from the UK to the US is a perfect example at what is happening now, it wasn't really until the Technological Revolution that the US properly overtook as the world superpower but really they had a long time before hand, now look at the UK it's not even a contender whilst living in days of yore thinking it still is. Saying all that though it depends if China can maintain growth and is why they are investing so heavily into nanotechnology research, but I don't think it will dip even though wages are increasing as long as it happens at a natural progression growth will continue. The fall of superpowers is the same throughout history and the world over, the relationship behind the US and China is showing all the same characteristics. A lot of people do not understand the amount of progress China has gone through in just 20-30 years, its phenomenal and they haven't even scratched the surface of ambition. I'm not pro or negative any country including my own but what has been achieved in China since the 1980's is mind blowing.
I do agree with you Crow. China's progress has been mind-blowing, and it is a perfect example of why it's important for a country to focus on education, particularly math and science. If the US does not wake up to that soon, then we will be a has-been superpower in the not-so-distant future. We have been sitting on our laurels for far too long, and it's starting to show. That being said, we haven't been displaced yet.
China does publish a lot of articles in science journals, but to be honest the quality of a lot of them is still crap, from what I've been told. China's repressive nature is a major stumbling block on their progress, and it shows in their educational system too. The students who go to school there can to math and science when it comes to calculating numbers, but they can't think creatively. Not only that, as more of their population moves into the middle class and sees how much they're being exploited compared to the west, both in terms of wages and freedom of speech, I foresee more uprisings; it's happened before, and there are more cracks showing as more of them gain internet access.
Perhaps it will benefit the US in the long run to have a competitor such as China; it may be the impetus they need to cast off such destructive policies as ignoring science and leaving important advances like stem-cell research to other countries. And I don't foresee them attacking each other, unlike the risks with the Soviet Union. Quite frankly, the two countries need each other between the amount of US debt China has bought and the vast markets the US provides for China. Unless they attack Taiwan. But now I'm getting ahead of myself.