http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=8&ved=0CF4QFjAH&url=http%3A%2F%2Fblog.godreports.com%2F2012%2F03%2Fatheist-professors-near-death-experience-in-hell-left-him-changed%2F&ei=8vjNT9CODams0QWEo-iRDA&usg=AFQjCNEJgy7rHd-HelsGdtdx0dZ3FbSSxA
It happens, religion and the thought of afterlife offers existential comfort:
QuoteYet the thought of death scared him. "I was terrified of dying because it meant lights out, the end of the story," he notes. "It seemed horrible that at 38-years-old, when I felt powerful and successful in my life, it would all come to an end in such a ridiculously pitiful way."
I wouldn't trust a dying and extremely stressed brain though. Some odd things come up, such as:
QuoteSuddenly he heard people outside the room calling for him by name. They spoke English, without a French accent, which seemed strange, because everyone in the hospital either spoke French or heavily accented English.
He then imagines what his fate will be, influenced by what believers say about non believers (nevermind that it makes no sense whatsoever) and then to resolve that uncomfortable feeling:
QuoteThen he was surprised by a small voice inside his head that said, 'Pray to God.'
He thought, 'I don't pray. I don't even believe in God.'
Then he heard the voice a second time, 'Pray to God.'
He lay there motionless for a few moments, completely spent. Then he was surprised by a small voice inside his head that said, 'Pray to God.'
He then decides to pray and:
QuoteWhen the people around him heard his attempt to pray, they became enraged. "There is no God and nobody can hear you," they cried, along with other obscenities. "If you keep praying we will really hurt you."
LOL :D This looks like the left hemisphere chiming in...
QuoteBut Howard noticed something curious. The more he prayed and began to mention God, the more they backed away from him.
Psychologcal discomfort solved.
QuoteAs he lay there, Howard began to review his life. "I came to the conclusion I led a crummy life and I had gone down the sewer pipe of the universe. I had gone into the septic tank with other human garbage. I was being processed by the garbage people into garbage like them."
Defense mechanism installed, with a touch of born-again fanaticism. Wants good reasons for staying a theist after conversion because it offers him existential comfort, massively reinforced by the idea that it was god who saved him from death, which he desperately tried to avoid by negotiating (praying).
QuoteFeelings of self-loathing and hopelessness filled his mind.
Cultish message which is still very persavive in some religions. Tells people they're filth and offers them a way out of that.
QuoteHis thoughts floated back again to himself as a nine-year-old in Sunday School, "I remembered myself singing "Jesus Loves Me," and I could feel it inside me. As a child, I thought Jesus was really cool and he was my buddy and he would take care of me."
No comments. ::) That's just weird coming from an older man. Probably associates his destructive behaviour with the lack of a father figure, which happens to some people, even grown adults, who in the lack of a father figure, become very destructive (pardon the extreme guessing here :P ).
QuoteImmediately he recognized Jesus, the King of Kings, the Rescuer, the Deliverer. "His arms reached down and touched me and everything healed up and came back together," he recalls. "He filled me with a love I never knew existed."
Pity he doesn't mention what this Jesus looked like...like the portrait commonly found of a european white man?
Quote"He could read everything in my mind and put His voice into my head," Howard recalls. "We had very rapid, instantaneous conversations."
Psychological simulacrum, which is
very different from actually feeling like there is somebody actually waching.
*edited to add: he posted a picture he drew of Jesus
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fblog.godreports.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F03%2FStorm-Howard-painting-of-Jesus.jpg&hash=7346832c9333f6754b8067471adfb4028ebe794d)
I was thinking it's all psychological mechanisms as well, I wouldn't trust a dying brain either :p these things seem to happen in cultural context as well, like an atheist living in the middle-east could claim they've seen Allah in an NDE or something...
Or a muslim, i just meant an atheist conversion like the one in this story.
Quote from: jimmorrisonbabe on June 05, 2012, 02:07:17 PM
I was thinking it's all psychological mechanisms as well, I wouldn't trust a dying brain either :p these things seem to happen in cultural context as well, like an atheist living in the middle-east could claim they've seen Allah in an NDE or something...
Yeah those things make you wonder.
Of course I don't actually know if it really happened and all, but I find these things to be rather suspicious, and would rather trust explanations based on things we know happens than on a claim made by an inherently flawed organ under massive stress. I don't see it as arrogance on my part, it's way more reasonable.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on June 05, 2012, 01:44:34 PM
QuoteSuddenly he heard people outside the room calling for him by name. They spoke English, without a French accent, which seemed strange, because everyone in the hospital either spoke French or heavily accented English.
QuoteThen he was surprised by a small voice inside his head that said, 'Pray to God.'
He thought, 'I don't pray. I don't even believe in God.'
Then he heard the voice a second time, 'Pray to God.'
He lay there motionless for a few moments, completely spent. Then he was surprised by a small voice inside his head that said, 'Pray to God.'
QuoteWhen the people around him heard his attempt to pray, they became enraged. "There is no God and nobody can hear you," they cried, along with other obscenities. "If you keep praying we will really hurt you."
So many of these NDEs (both with and without religious content) sound like nothing more than vivid dreams that I wonder why that explanation that they come from basically the same place never seems to occur to believers?
QuoteThey spoke English, without a French accent, which seemed strange, because everyone in the hospital either spoke French or heavily accented English.
He's from Kentucky, so I'm guessing they had Kentucky accents. In the afterlife we all have "babel fish" in our ears to convert accents to our native accents.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on June 05, 2012, 03:08:36 PM
So many of these NDEs (both with and without religious content) sound like nothing more than vivid dreams that I wonder why that explanation that they come from basically the same place never seems to occur to believers?
This. I'm also guessing that a lot of the "religious" experiences of people were nothing more than hallucinations, responses to conditions like schizophrenia, etc. Same for those cases where people claimed their loved ones were possessed by the devil or something like that; probably some mental condition that was not understood at all at the time.
Quote from: Genericguy on June 05, 2012, 03:37:14 PM
QuoteThey spoke English, without a French accent, which seemed strange, because everyone in the hospital either spoke French or heavily accented English.
He's from Kentucky, so I'm guessing they had Kentucky accents. In the afterlife we all have "babel fish" in our ears to convert accents to our native accents.
+1 for the Hitchhiker's Guide reference :D
Here is a random google search for muslim near death experiance...
http://theislamawareness.blogspot.com/2009/04/near-death-experiences-and-islam.html (http://theislamawareness.blogspot.com/2009/04/near-death-experiences-and-islam.html)
And one for Hinduism near death experiance...
http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=6726 (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=6726)
If we believe all the nde stories, then you have nothing to worry about. It seems that what ever religion you choose is the correct religion.
Is it mean that the whole thing made me giggle? Like, I'm sorry that he was sick and in pain, but the whole account was just so....corny and hamfisted.
I loved the part about "Unfortunately he was in a country with socialized medicine...." and that whole spiel about how no doctors work on the weekends. Am I the only one that is a tad skeptical about the idea that France doesn't have functioning ERs on the weekends?
QuoteHe also wrote a book about his experience, "My Descent Into Death," which he says was written primarily to non-believers
Matthew 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
He claims to have met the person who said that! I found no hint of the word "nonprofit" anywhere online.
I've been trying to find out what a "double atheist" is, and am not having much success. The caption to the image for this article from The Sun (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/features/3501156/Primary-school-children-to-be-taught-atheism-in-Blackburn.html) mentions "double atheism," but it's not explained in the story. It must be something that only very special atheists know about.
Quote from: Recusant on June 05, 2012, 07:29:50 PM
I've been trying to find out what a "double atheist" is, and am not having much success.
Me either. All I could find were atheist double standards and atheists living double lives (pretending to be religious). Really, when people invent terms its only common courtesy to provide definitions.
Maybe "double atheist" is like having a double negative in a sentence. "As a double-atheist, I don't not believe in god." Which would explain the rest of the story nicely. ;D
You know what else bothers me, btw? The atheist converts to Christianity, and starts thinking that he is "trash" and that he is going to hell with all of the other "trash people." (his words) I do not understand how Christians believe that a god creates people, and yet believe that the people god creates can be "trash." As an atheist, I don't even believe that people should be called or compared to or thrown away like "trash" and I don't believe in a sacred divine being that created them. For people that sure can go on about god's divine purpose and the sanctity of life, they sure do attach a low value to humans if those humans aren't acting or believing a certain way.
If all it takes for someone to convert to a set system of belief is a deeply subjetive experience while in distress, then The Asmo and that someone would likely not get along.
Validate the meaning of the experience, or it had none beyond its own time frame.
QuoteHoward had the misfortune of a falling ill on a Saturday in a country with socialized medicine, and no doctor could be found. "French doctors do seven surgeries a week, and after they do the seven surgeries, they take the weekend off," he discovered.
Let's see, the Louvre is open on Sundays and so is d'Orsay, but there's no doctor in Paris, hmmm. I'm surprised he didn't say that French doctors do six surgeries within six days and rest on the seventh. I don't think the French health system works as written.
Quote"I was a double atheist," says Howard Storm, who became a tenured art professor at Northern Kentucky University by age 27. "I was a know-it-all college professor, and universities are some of the most closed-minded places there are," he notes.
From Artist professor to Con Artist professor in such a short time, amazing. If only he had smoked a joint and visit Edouard Manet's "Breakfast on the Grass" at the d'Orsay Museum in Paris, maybe he would have seen how art makes a joke out of Christianity. I would not have lasted five minutes in his class with his "know-it-all" attitude.
Quote from: Genericguy on June 05, 2012, 04:05:01 PM
Here is a random google search for muslim near death experiance...
http://theislamawareness.blogspot.com/2009/04/near-death-experiences-and-islam.html (http://theislamawareness.blogspot.com/2009/04/near-death-experiences-and-islam.html)
And one for Hinduism near death experiance...
http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=6726 (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=6726)
If we believe all the nde stories, then you have nothing to worry about. It seems that what ever religion you choose is the correct religion.
Thanks for links.
Yeah, NDE is bullshit to the max power. It is so a cultural/how you were raised/environmental thing.
That's why i get extra annoyed when people are giving me jesus flyers. That's nice that you like jesus, but i don't give a fuck.
that's like me giving out my gf's bio to everyone. "do you love Mimi too?"
ok, shut the fuck up. No one has to believe what you do.
I've also read buddhist accounts where Yamaduts are coming to take them away to Naraka. Hmm. How many different afterworlds are there? ???
Quote from: mp29 on June 22, 2012, 05:47:06 AM
I've also read buddhist accounts where Yamaduts are coming to take them away to Naraka. Hmm. How many different afterworlds are there? ???
There are as many heavens and hells as there are religious folk who will believe THEIR delusion is the right one; and we should all follow them on a giant glowing chariot to the castle in the clouds. e___e;;;
Quote from: Sweetdeath on June 21, 2012, 06:55:56 AM
That's why i get extra annoyed when people are giving me jesus flyers. That's nice that you like jesus, but i don't give a fuck.
that's like me giving out my gf's bio to everyone. "do you love Mimi too?"ok, shut the fuck up. No one has to believe what you do.
This is an excellent response to people who want to talk to you about religion. We should all pick something that we're really into and think is superneat, and print up flyers.
Next time someone knocks on my door and wants to share the good news, I want to be able to hand them a Game of Thrones flyer (prominently featuring my man, PD) and be all "Okay, that's cool, you can tell me why you love Jesus for a while, but then I want to tell you why I love Game of Thrones and compare and contrast the books and the show. But don't worry, I've only read the first two books so far. But I have lotsa theories! Cool?"
Quote from: Ali on June 22, 2012, 06:05:09 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on June 21, 2012, 06:55:56 AM
That's why i get extra annoyed when people are giving me jesus flyers. That's nice that you like jesus, but i don't give a fuck.
that's like me giving out my gf's bio to everyone. "do you love Mimi too?"ok, shut the fuck up. No one has to believe what you do.
This is an excellent response to people who want to talk to you about religion. We should all pick something that we're really into and think is superneat, and print up flyers.
Next time someone knocks on my door and wants to share the good news, I want to be able to hand them a Game of Thrones flyer (prominently featuring my man, PD) and be all "Okay, that's cool, you can tell me why you love Jesus for a while, but then I want to tell you why I love Game of Thrones and compare and contrast the books and the show. But don't worry, I've only read the first two books so far. But I have lotsa theories! Cool?"
I'm liking this idea, Ali. <3
It seriously feels like:
Religious person: "This is my fandom."
Me: "but dude... I don't have to like it too."
Like morons fighting over which baseball player is the best. In the end, no one REALLY gives a fuck but you. So stop spitting your crumbs at me and go away.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on June 23, 2012, 06:06:02 AM
Like morons fighting over which baseball player is the best. In the end, no one REALLY gives a fuck but you. So stop spitting your crumbs at me and go away.
Yeah :D
At most it keeps those people busy with something.